Specific Q about arms

#15

I'm following a new programme the last 6-8 weeks and I'm seeing great progress in general.
However, there is one problem. My forearms and upper arms are coming along well, except for the lower part of my triceps and biceps (the parts nearest my elbow).
It looks a bit strange to see development all over my arms except for the bit just above my elbow!
Is this normal?
Or are there specific exercises I could do to target these muscles?
Thanks!

rubadub

#15 wrote:

I'm following a new programme

Details?

Hanley

I've always found close grip benches, skull crushers and Tate presses hit the tricep tendon right at the elbow really well for me.

crotalus667

#15 wrote:

I'm following a new programme

is this the m&f huge arms in 8 weeks ???

cowzerp

some people's muscle insertion is higher up than others and this means that sometimes the muscle is smaller closer to the joint-this is genetic, most top bodybuilders are blessed with great shaped muscles and this cant be changed apart from the muscle getting bigger or smaller..

#15

Hanley wrote:

I've always found close grip benches, skull crushers and Tate presses hit the tricep tendon right at the elbow really well for me.

Cheers, I had never heard of those tate presses, they seem pretty good.

Re genetics, I'm not exactly huge, so hopefully genetics is not what is holding me back so far. Hopefully its just a matter of targetting them properly.

I'm only starting out really so there should be a lot of room for growth (I hope!). My biggest problem is eating, I cant force the food into me and I'm struggling to keep eating regularly!

crotalus667

#15 wrote:

Re genetics, I'm not exactly huge, so hopefully genetics is not what is holding me back so far.

Genetics are over rated some of the best bodybuilders where hard gainers they just had to work harder to reach their goals.

#15 wrote:

My biggest problem is eating, I cant force the food into me and I'm struggling to keep eating regularly!

I picked up the cheapest watch form the ironman collection out of Argos (€30 I think) it has a count down timer on it I have it set to two hours forty five minutes so it gives me a 15 minute warning before its time to eat :cool: .

As for struggling to get it down have you tried whey protein ?? Just mix and drink:D If im having trouble swallowing with something like dry chicken I will chew it then take a big gulp of water swish it about in my mouth and swallow I find it realy helps when you over cook chicken . The bottom line is you need the protein to grow, so your going to have to get it down your neck experiment with different food ‘s that have the same nutritional content it makes it easier to swallow if it’s something you like .

Good luck with your program

ps
Which program is it ??

arybvtcw0eolkf

First off OP I get the impression your not training very long and probably getting alittle impatient, relax. Growth takes time, and alot of hard work both in and out of the gym.

As for targetting certain area's of your arms, forget it. Concentrate on over all growth, don't worry nothing will grow out of proportion to the other muscles.

An old saying goes that for every inch of arm size you need 15lbs of overall muscle growth, personally I think there's a bit of bullsh*t in that. But what it is saying is that you'll have to grow all over, so you need to get the cals eat.

Your say you simply can't get enough food in, of course you can. But just like lifting and everything else you have to train for it. You simply can not go from a normal 2000 cal per day diet to 5000 cals the next day, or even that week without making yourself sick. So like your lifting, and cardio you'll have to make small increases to your cal intake untill your comfortable consuming the amount of cals you need for growth.

Btw, six and eight week programs are another load of bullsh*t. Muscles grow through resistance and overload. But you'll learn this in time.

Best of luck in the iron game.

cowzerp

#15 wrote:

Re genetics, I'm not exactly huge, so hopefully genetics is not what is holding me back so far. Hopefully its just a matter of targetting them properly.

When i say genetics im not talking about hard gainers, im talking about your bicep tendons-if they are longer away from your elbow then you will look like you have a big gap in your muscle-this is what you've described, if your tendon is short then you will have a full looking bicep, this cant be changed because tendons can only grow very slighly, milimetres (not even visible)
some body builders are unfortunate like you may be but learn to adapt there poses to maximise what they've got..the same applies to peoples calfs also-long tendon-skinny lower calf-short tendon more chance of big lower calf..this might explain it better.

#15

Thanks for the clarification, I had misunderstood the point about genetics. Does that also apply to the triceps?

Mairt thanks for the advice and yes, you are right, I am not training very long. Well, not seriously anyway. When I was younger I used to do weights but it was only crappy isolation exercises. I realised how pointless it was when I did some research on the subject.

Crotalus I got the program from a mate, I forget the name of it:o
The watch idea is a good one!

I have just started taking protein, but would I be better off with creatine or a weight gainer?

cowzerp

#15 wrote:

Thanks for the clarification, I had misunderstood the point about genetics. Does that also apply to the triceps?

The same applies to all muscles but only usually is noticed on biceps and calfs and chest-the chest when people have a very small central chest area,

#15 wrote:

I have just started taking protein, but would I be better off with creatine or a weight gainer?

Keep up the protein but make it a weight gainer and you can still take creatine and a weight gainer for protein and extra calories..

Degsy

Drop sets and plenty of 'em.

The FitnessDock

Mairt wrote:

As for targetting certain area's of your arms, forget it. Concentrate on over all growth, don't worry nothing will grow out of proportion to the other muscles.

An old saying goes that for every inch of arm size you need 15lbs of overall muscle growth, personally I think there's a bit of bullsh*t in that. But what it is saying is that you'll have to grow all over, so you need to get the cals eat.

Great points.

I tend to agree with the 10-15 pounds of bodyweight per inch of arm size rule. Of course it varies from person to person (some build arm size more quickly than others), but it's a good rule of thumb.

When people ask me what the best exercises are to build their arms, they are puzzled when I reply "squats" and "deadlifts".

I explain that they'll need to add weight before they add inches on their arms - so the big lifts will build their "guns" much quicker than the likes of barbell curls and concentration curls......

arybvtcw0eolkf

Degsy wrote:

Drop sets and plenty of 'em.

Drop sets won't make you grow. They will give the OP a nice pump and make him feel good for an hour or so but in the long run nothing works better than simple WEIGHT and OVERLOAD, coupled with proper rest and diet.

Forgetting diet for a moment and just concentrating on weight/resistance/overload.

The human body is naturally lazy, like it or lump it genetically we're lazy fvcks and thats why we get stronger/bigger and how is that achieved?..

Because we like to make things easy on ourselves. So if you hit a particular muscle group or your body (cardio here is a good reference) hard, and regular the body thinks to itself (forgive me making this overly simple) 'feck this, if this keeps happening I'll make myself stronger/faster to make it easier on myself', and so your body grows.

Continue this on a regular basis, coupled with rest and diet and your going to grow, and its the bodies way of making life easier... ie. growth equals easier lifts. Overload equals grow stronger/bigger and things SHOULD get easier.

Soooo when things get easier, we increase the work load, don't we?...

(hope that comes accross ok and not too long winded).

#15

Dont mean to sound stupid here, but what do you mean by overload mairt?

Hanley

progressively adding more weight onto the bar or dumbbells week by week... if you stick with say 20kg your muscle gets big enough and strong enoguh to lift 20kg. Ask it to lift 25 and it has to get bigger and stronger again.... etc etc

Degsy

Mairt wrote:

Drop sets won't make you grow.

They work for me.Start off as heavy as you can and gradually lower the weight untill your arms are completely bunched.I also found that they help you make very good increases in strength too,somtimes 5kg a month.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Degsy wrote:

They work for me.

Honestly Degsy, they don't

Besides all the messing around, your biceps are one muscle group which most people have to watch carefully to avoid over training as their hit back with almost all back excise's, including DL's!.

Their a small muscle group, they don't need super-sets, drop-sets or anything other than heavy simple workouts.

Anyway I think the OP has alot of info here to play about with now.

cowzerp

Drop sets are for muscle endurance not for building muscle mass, therefore they dont work for your specific goal.

justsomebloke

Mairt wrote:

Their a small muscle group, they don't need super-sets, drop-sets or anything other than heavy simple workouts.

have to disagree with this. I have to say that my best arm gains have always come from supersetting bi and triceps work as oppose to pure isolation work or just lifting heavy. That said I would always do a few heavy compound lifts before arm workout but still supper setting is what works for me

edit: OT Mr tickle yay or nay??

BossArky

I have to agree with JSB. Up until recently I never did isolation exercises like bicep curls & tricep extensions and my arms are bigger than most and well defined.... not massive though.

My triceps grew from benching and pressing, whilst the biceps get hit hard on pull ups, lat pull downs and rows.

arybvtcw0eolkf

jsb wrote:

have to disagree with this. I have to say that my best arm gains have always come from supersetting bi and triceps work as oppose to pure isolation work or just lifting heavy. That said I would always do a few heavy compound lifts before arm workout but still supper setting is what works for me

edit: OT Mr tickle yay or nay??

Tell us then how super-setting works for muscle mass as opposed to anything else?.

BossArky wrote:

I have to agree with JSB. Up until recently I never did isolation exercises like bicep curls & tricep extensions and my arms are bigger than most and well defined.... not massive though.


My triceps grew from benching and pressing, whilst the biceps get hit hard on pull ups, lat pull downs and rows.

That makes no sense what so ever.


Btw guys, just bare in mind that your all advising a novice lifter to start using drop sets and super-sets!..

BossArky

Mairt wrote:

That makes no sense what so ever.

Eh, well that reflects on you I suppose. What don't you understand? I did not use isolation exercises on biceps or triceps and my arms grew bigger than guys who spent the vast majority of their entire sessions on curls. Not massive as in not Arnie massive. Seems clear enough.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BossArky wrote:

Eh, well that reflects on you I suppose. What don't you understand? I did not use isolation exercises on biceps or triceps and my arms grew bigger than guys who spent the vast majority of their entire sessions on curls. Not massive as in not Arnie massive. Seems clear enough.

No, I'll tell you what reflects what on who.

In another post you said you weigh 70kgs, and your giving advice on building mass!. Then saying your arm's are "bigger than most". For crying out loud give it over :rolleyes:

Super-sets will NOT add mass, its simple.

justsomebloke

Mairt wrote:

Tell us then how super-setting works for muscle mass as opposed to anything else?.

Pardon? Why is there no particular one stop programme that is the be all and end all of everything, surprisingly because we all respond to different stimuli and some things work for certain people and not for others. If you want to know why supersetting works for me and not just heavy compound work or singular isolation work, well you would have to go and ask God* as he is the one that gave me these genetics.

Mairt wrote:

Btw guys, just bare in mind that your all advising a novice lifter to start using drop sets and super-sets!..

actually can you quote the part where I told the OP to do supersets, I think if you read my previous post all I said is that I disagreed with your point.

Mairt wrote:

Super-sets will NOT add mass, its simple.

seen as though they work for me, please excuse me if I ignore this piece of advise.

Morale of the story as a novice stick to to the basics however as you learn more about how your body responds to different things don't be afraid to slightly alter your workout to include it, even if someone who is begger and stronger tells you not to, chances are it's just that it didn't work for them but as we are all different we shouldn't all just do the same thing.

*depending on your stand point you may believe that God determined your genetic structure or you maybe one of those nut jobs that believe your genetics are a combination of your parents genetics.

#15

Cheers for all the advice guys!
I might actually post up my program later to see if I'm doing anything wrong.

Would it be worth investing in some gym equipment, I already have some barbells and dumbells but they are not the olympic ones.
Would you recommend anywhere that I could get a bench and some olypmic standard weights?

Thanks guys

justsomebloke

#15 wrote:

Would you recommend anywhere that I could get a bench and some olypmic standard weights?

pm mickk, for good quality gym equipment he is the best that I know of and can pretty much stock you with what ever you need or even not need but want it just cause it looks cool

arybvtcw0eolkf

jsb wrote:

Pardon? Why is there no particular one stop programme that is the be all and end all of everything, surprisingly because we all respond to different stimuli and some things work for certain people and not for others. If you want to know why supersetting works for me and not just heavy compound work or singular isolation work, well you would have to go and ask God* as he is the one that gave me these genetics.



actually can you quote the part where I told the OP to do supersets, I think if you read my previous post all I said is that I disagreed with your point.



seen as though they work for me, please excuse me if I ignore this piece of advise.

Morale of the story as a novice stick to to the basics however as you learn more about how your body responds to different things don't be afraid to slightly alter your workout to include it, even if someone who is begger and stronger tells you not to, chances are it's just that it didn't work for them but as we are all different we shouldn't all just do the same thing.

*depending on your stand point you may believe that God determined your genetic structure or you maybe one of those nut jobs that believe your genetics are a combination of your parents genetics.

Great, round of applause :rolleyes:

justsomebloke

well can you then at least provide links to prove that supersets don't add mass especially as you have stated that they definitively that they don't and then explain to me why they work for me.

arybvtcw0eolkf

jsb wrote:

well can you then at least provide links to prove that supersets don't add mass especially as you have stated that they definitively that they don't and then explain to me why they work for me.

No, I'm not interested in educating you.

justsomebloke

Mairt wrote:

No, I'm not interested in educating you.

then why the **** are you posting and as it says in the charter if you are going to say something at least be able to point to resources if asked

cowzerp

jsb wrote:

then why the **** are you posting and as it says in the charter if you are going to say something at least be able to point to resources if asked

JSB im like mairt and not interested in googling stuff i already know, high reps are for muscle endurance and low reps are for strenght-moderate reps 10-12 are for bulk, all this stuff is widely known, drop sets are more about high repetition and therefore hit the slow twitch fibres which are endurance fibres,
the fast twitch are been hit maybe before you start your drop set-this can be achieved anyway, maybe your increased endurance is helping you lift heavier weights than before therefore working you better, drop sets are o'k to add to a program but best to shake things up a bit.

arybvtcw0eolkf

jsb wrote:

then why the **** are you posting and as it says in the charter if you are going to say something at least be able to point to resources if asked

Post #14 explains in very simple terms why muscles grow. They don't grow through drop-sets, super-sets, negatives etc.

I am not going to spend anymore time on answering your questions unless you start a new thread, then I might consider it.

As for directing the OP (or you for that matter to a source) I don't have to. I've over twenty year's body building, weight training & Martial Arts experience. I haven't read FLEX, MUSCLEMAG, MUSCLE & FITNESS etc in over fifteen year's. I could go on, but at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I won't

Seriously, I'm not slagging you off. But I read through some of your posts and your obviously pretty new to this sport. If your still at it in a few year's time I bet you'll have changed your tune as to work works and why it works.

Btw, changing routines etc occassionally are good for keeping you motivated and from getting bored, but really at the end of the day nothing beats hardcore heavy lifting, diet and rest for adding mass.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote:

maybe your increased endurance is helping you lift heavier weights than before therefore working you better, drop sets are o'k to add to a program but best to shake things up a bit.

Thats a very good point, and one I'm glad someone brought up.

Cardio is vital to adding mass and gaining strenght, why?. Because when we're cardio fit our CV system can supple our muscles with far more oxygen than an unfit person. So the muscles opperate more efficently, take longer to tire and so allow us to lift longer and heavier.

justsomebloke

cowzerp wrote:

JSB im like mairt and not interested in googling stuff i already know,

yes but the problem is that a load of people can give out any info they like, for example if I start a thread saying women shouldn't do full push-ups a lot of people will say yes they shouldn't cause they think they know it is right however there is no actual scientific data to say they shouldn't.

So if someone says supersets will under no circumstance add any extra mass and I call bull**** they should be able to back up their stance with proof. To say I don't want to look it up cause I already know it just lazy, unhelpful, ignorant and goes against the spirit as well as the actual rules of the forum.

As for your post I don't disagree with anything you have said but you seem to have skipped suppersets which is the only thing I was talking about so what is your stance on supersets then?

justsomebloke

Mairt wrote:

As for directing the OP (or you for that matter to a source) I don't have to. I've over twenty year's body building, weight training & Martial Arts experience.

I know you know you stuff, but on an internet forum just to say it doesn't work full stop isn't very helpful to people cause then they say well why do so many other sites recommend X and Y and so it isn't just for my benefit it is for the benefit of everyone.
Just remember as it is an internet forum nobody can really be trusetd so that is why we ask for independent confirmation of points so we can look at the validty of your claim

cowzerp

jsb wrote:

As for your post I don't disagree with anything you have said but you seem to have skipped suppersets which is the only thing I was talking about so what is your stance on supersets then?

supersets are great when used with opposing muscles, chest press to row for example, but there the same as doing your normal reps only for using 1 muscle while the other 1 rest, thats getting your normal weight related results plus added endurance effect of not resting between set's. same building results though..

arybvtcw0eolkf

jsb wrote:

I know you know you stuff, but on an internet forum just to say it doesn't work full stop isn't very helpful to people cause then they say well why do so many other sites recommend X and Y and so it isn't just for my benefit it is for the benefit of everyone.
Just remember as it is an internet forum nobody can really be trusetd so that is why we ask for independent confirmation of points so we can look at the validty of your claim

And where would you like me to point you to?.

I could point you to two bodybuilding boards which I moderate on, not tell you who I am there and you'd probably believe that.

I rarely link people to other sites because I post from personal experience.

But just for craic sake I say I super-set bicep & triceps, or Back and shoulders etc how will working one opposing muscle benefit another?.

It doesn't. But people buy into a lot of marketing hype and believe they do. But I'll say this. Rarely will super-sets etc not work! ... As your training muscles with resistance, weight/overload the muscle will grow and get stronger. But it won't be better than an isolation or compound exercise, and may in alot of cases be far less efficent.

I hope I'm coming accross alitte clearer now. I really hate sounding like I'm talking down to people, but sometimes I feel like banging my head off the wall in trying to get people to make their workouts simple and effective.

cowzerp

sometimes on paper things dont sound the same as if i just told you,, i could explain the difference in 1 minute but sometimes takes ages to explain in text!! and gets misinterprated also lots of the time..

BossArky

Mairt wrote:

No, I'll tell you what reflects what on who.

In another post you said you weigh 70kgs, and your giving advice on building mass!. Then saying your arm's are "bigger than most". For crying out loud give it over :rolleyes:

Super-sets will NOT add mass, its simple.

I presume you are referring to this thread. If you care to skip a few lines down in it you will see that I am aiming to drop another 3kg so am in no way looking to build mass. Lean muscle for strength yes, heavier in general no. At my height of 5' 7'' I don't want to go over 70kg. My initial post in this thread was on the benefits of compound vs isolation exercises, not mass building.

I also didn't mention anything about supersets. My original post backing up jsb was in reference to doing compound as opposed to isolation exercises.

As someone who was a sub 60kg stick insect in my early twenties I have found that my workouts including compound exercises have worked for me to burn fat and get stronger. So yes, I will attempt to give my insight to the original poster as they sound like me a few years ago.

I don't profess to be an expert. That I will leave to you :rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

BossArky wrote:

I don't profess to be an expert. That I will leave to you :rolleyes:

Cool, glad thats established.

:cool:

Hanley

This thread is an absolute riot...

Why does everyone assume supersets = high reps anyway...??

I remember reading some where ages ago that a "true" superset was only the case if it involved opposing muscle groups, ie bis and tris, lats and chest, anything else was a giant set... thoughts on whether or not we should get REALLY pedantic?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hanley wrote:

This thread is an absolute riot...

Why does everyone assume supersets = high reps anyway...??

I remember reading some where ages ago that a "true" superset was only the case if it involved opposing muscle groups, ie bis and tris, lats and chest, anything else was a giant set... thoughts on whether or not we should get REALLY pedantic?

The definition of 'super-sets' to me is just working two (or more 'giant sets') muscle groups in one hi-intensity workout. They don't have to be opposing (ie pulling/pushing) but just different groups.

I've used them when I'd be really pushed for time, but thats about all.

If I wanted a hi-intensity weight training routine I'd use cardio weight training circuits (coming up to a competition I'd use these).

cowzerp

Hanley wrote:

This thread is an absolute riot...

Why does everyone assume supersets = high reps anyway...??

i was talking about drop sets-supersets are cool

Hanley

Mairt wrote:

The definition of 'super-sets' to me is just working two (or more 'giant sets') muscle groups in one hi-intensity workout. They don't have to be opposing (ie pulling/pushing) but just different groups.

Ahhh yes sorry, I shoulda just said different, not opposing!

"Intensity" in what context, I assume you're not talking about the percentage of your one rep max?

In much the same way as you I primarily use them as a time saver. I'll usually superset chest and upper back accessory work, and bicep and triceps. Just because it's a pain in the a$$ having to spend MORE time in the gym after killing myself for the 2 hours previous just to get some bicep work in to keep my elbows in check!

I'm not too sure of the value of drop-sets. I'm sure they can be useful from time to time as a break from heavy training tho. I wouldn't rely on them as my sole source of muscle gain tho.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote:

i was talking about drop sets-supersets are cool

If you really wanted to use drop sets my advice is to get your diet and rest absolutely bang on. Nothing breaks down a muscle group like drop sets, tears the bolllox out of ya. But you'd better be getting those nutrients in and resting that muscle group LOTS otherwise its you can wave 'bye-bye' to your gains rapidly.

Btw, in the past I'd never have done these things 'clean' as I found the recovery time played havoc with things. Defo an advanced exercise.

Degsy

Mairt wrote:

If you really wanted to use drop sets my advice is to get your diet and rest absolutely bang on. Nothing breaks down a muscle group like drop sets, tears the bolllox out of ya. But you'd better be getting those nutrients in and resting that muscle group LOTS otherwise its you can wave 'bye-bye' to your gains rapidly.

Btw, in the past I'd never have done these things 'clean' as I found the recovery time played havoc with things. Defo an advanced exercise.

Like i said,i've been doing drop sets for just shy of a year and its produced serious results.My nutrition is enough and to cope with the strain with still enough left over to grow a belly.The thing is to ease off if you start feeling overfatigued or experience any other ill-effects.I do each muscle group once a week although the arms probably get hit twice with all the other stuff that's going on,still i put 1.5 inhes onto them in just over a year.

cowzerp

Degsy wrote:

Like i said,i've been doing drop sets for just shy of a year and its produced serious results.My nutrition is enough and to cope with the strain with still enough left over to grow a belly.The thing is to ease off if you start feeling overfatigued or experience any other ill-effects.I do each muscle group once a week although the arms probably get hit twice with all the other stuff that's going on,still i put 1.5 inhes onto them in just over a year.

yeah and like said before-your growing because the bit before you drop the weight-not the bit where you're dropping the weight! just like you would have, if you worked the same effort without the drop sets.. im sure your endurance is much better!

T-Boner

BossArky wrote:

I have to agree with JSB. Up until recently I never did isolation exercises like bicep curls & tricep extensions and my arms are bigger than most and well defined.... not massive though.

My triceps grew from benching and pressing, whilst the biceps get hit hard on pull ups, lat pull downs and rows.

Look at what I found :eek:

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/769/32917.JPG

OMG your HUGE

:rolleyes:

Hanley

T-Boner wrote:

Look at what I found :eek:

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/769/32917.JPG

OMG your HUGE

:rolleyes:

OMG lets see a pic of you!!

ali.c

Hanley wrote:

OMG lets see a pic of you!!

+1

FFS thats was a bit out of order T-Boner!!