Neosporosis research

Neo Researcher

Hello just to remind people that I am still carrying out my research on Bovine neosporosis, seen as some people, who have donated animals before and stopped hunting for the summer, might be starting to hunt foxes this time of year again. Hunters that I have got in contact with through boards.ie have been very supportive and I am very grateful for this

The project is going well as I am on track with the number of animal carcasses I have been donated. Most of the donations I have received have been from local hunters in the Galway area. This has been great and I hope it continues. However in order to get a more national view it would be great if hunters from outside the Galway area could donate animals. I am funded to go collect them so there is no problem for me to drive to get them. If it is outside the Connaught area tough I'd prefer to go for at least 2 animals rather than just the one

Below is the letter I send to people requesting samples. If you require any information or would like my email address or phone number please pm me.
Cheers

Dear Sir/Madam,
I am a PhD student with the Mammal Ecology Group at N.U.I Galway. I am writing to you to enquire about the possibility of acquiring animal samples from your quarry species. My project is on bovine neosporosis, a disease endemic in the Irish cattle herd, the most serious symptom of this disease being bovine abortions. It is caused by a parasite called Neospora caninum which is also found in dogs, causing paralysis of the hind legs in some cases. Although only in small percentages of the population, it has also been found to occur in wild carnivores, most notably foxes. My project aims to establish what role wild carnivores have in the epidemiology of bovine neosporosis in Ireland. A large part of this will be looking at the prevalence of this parasite in the Irish populations of wild carnivores.
This will be done by conducting laboratory tests on samples taken from dead animals. The more of the animal I get the better it is for me, but I understand parts may be needed to be kept for trophies or tails for competition purposes. The main samples I would require for the tests would be blood, brain tissue and faecal (which can be exudated from the colon). It would be also useful for me to retrieve a molar tooth (to age the animal) and stomach contents (for dietary analysis), to determine if a particular age group is more vulnerable to the disease and if the diet of the animal is causing it to become infected. The samples I would be interested in collecting from you if possible would be mink and fox. Therefore it would be very useful for me to acquire these samples from animals killed in hunts and I am able to travel in order to do so. Normally when people who donate carcasses get some the ring or text me and call and get them. I either meet them or get them from some arranged place (side of a house, field, tractor trailer etc). I understand in some cases it would not be possible to acquire all tissue samples but any one of them would be useful. I would be grateful for any help you can give me regarding this. If the results of my study interest you I will of course provide you with them as they become available. Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely,
Peter Stuart

http://www.nuigalway.ie/zoology/lawton/mammalecology.html

BryanL

hey Peter what sort of age ranges are you seeing?

Neo Researcher

Hello BryanL
I presume you mean in the animals I am examining.

I have not yet started aging the animals exactly yet. This will be done counting layers in their teeth, which are not easy to distinguish. Therefore I am waiting until I have them all so I can compare them and get my eye in so my estimations are consistent.

However just from looking at size, tooth wear, coloration etc I am getting a wide range of ages in foxes. Of course at this time of year as the young start to disperse I am getting much more of this years young cubs especially from road kill.

In general red foxes tend to live between 2-6 years.

My colleague who works only on mink thinks most of the mink are in the 1-2 year age class but has yet to examine their teeth.

Hope this answers your question.
Peter

BryanL

yes it does thanks

Neo Researcher

No worries, always good to see some interest

cavan shooter

I went out last night 10-12.30 and saw 12 foxes, Thats a 13.5 km circuit. Never got a shot at one. Didn't come to the call. looked at it and literally shrugged the shoulder. One guy was sitting in a field licking himself, no matter what i did couldn't draw them down.

I don't normally start till October when the weather is harder, wonder have they full bellies. What I cant get over is the density??

Trojan911

Hi Peter,

Starting up the lamping from tomorrow night, so hopefully I will be in contact with you again for collection. Glad to hear it is going well..

TJ911...

johngalway

Just like to chip in that I've met Peter a good few times now, he's a sound fella incase anyone is worried about meeting

Neo Researcher

Cavan hunter,
I would guess nearly all the foxes you saw had full bellies. James Fairley who was interested to see if foxes in Ireland ever starved to death decided to look into it. He choose to look at foxes in winter as that is when potential fox food is least abundant. He got shot samples from hunters similar to me and found that 89% of animals had a meal 48 hours (time it takes food to pass through a foxes stomach) prior to being shot. As foxes could go several days without food there is no reason to believe the other 11% were that hard up either. I have just got a new fourth year student to look at the stomach contents of the foxes I get, so if that interests you I can tell you what the foxes shot had eaten when they do it.

Fox density varies depending on the habitat. In urban areas were pickings are good you can get 5 fox territories in 1km squared. In remote rural areas, sizes can go up to about one territory per 2.5km squared. Ireland has particularly good fox habitat. One of my old lecturers told me a fox expert who flew in to Cork airport said looking out the window he thought it was the best habitat he had ever seen. Although half the cubs born don’t make it through the autumn, those that are still here might still be sharing their habitat with their parents. Also given the wet July we had, earthworms will have been plentiful this year, which are ideal for young hunting cubs. So yep fox densities can be surprisingly high.

Neo Researcher

Trojan911
Thats great to hear. Hope I will get some form you soon too.

Johngalway
Cheers for that. You have been a great help to the project too and the number of foxes you have provided always keeps the heat off me in progress reports with my supervisor

Neo Researcher

Just thought I would add that my project is sponsored by the department of agriculture. Think it might be worth mentioning that as I was talking to some of the committee members of game hunting last night and they seemed more interested in donating animal samples when they found that out.
Cheers

tikkamark

Neo Researcher wrote:

Just thought I would add that my project is sponsored by the department of agriculture. Think it might be worth mentioning that as I was talking to some of the committee members of game hunting last night and they seemed more interested in donating animal samples when they found that out.
Cheers

I have a nice big dog fox in the freezer for you peter hope to have one or to more to join him tomorrow night;)

Neo Researcher

Thats great tikkamark. I was begining to wonder if anyone on here was really shooting foxes at all

Best of luck tonight.

I got two myself yesterday but was pretty easy someone had already knocked them down for me

stevoman

i was oout last night. seen two but they wouldnt come to call. they were very wary

Neo Researcher

Better luck next time stevoman. If you do get any and want to donate the carcasses to the project that would be great. Have a new fourth year student who will look at their stomach contents so might even literally be able to tell you what they had for breakfast

Trojan911

Neo Researcher wrote: »

I have just got a new fourth year student to look at the stomach contents of the foxes I get, so if that interests you I can tell you what the foxes shot had eaten when they do it.

I would be interested in knowing what has been consumed prior to shooting and when was it consumed i.e. time difference between eating & being shot, if that's possible and without causing any disruption to your project. This may help me improve my knowledge of how a hungry or full fox reacts when lamped with a caller.

PS. The image is of the "Dope" I was talking to you about. Have you come across any of this found in their stomachs/blood?

Cheers.

TJ911...

tikkamark

I have seven more foxes for you peter if your over this side of the country any time soon if not i could hang on to them until you are over this way;)

Mark

tikkamark

Trojan911 wrote: »

This may help me improve my knowledge of how a hungry or full fox reacts when lamped with a caller.
.

Trojan only seen your post there now:rolleyes:In one of the warreners dvds he is observing 3 foxes that were eating on a sheep all night long at dawn the foxes were so full they could barely walk!But the warrener positioned about 200yrds away with the camera gave a bit of a rabbit squeal and two of the foxes still came right in to within 10 yrds of him you could see the swollen bellys on the foxes but they still came to the call:)
I have even seen it myself twice one night we spotted a fox trotting off with a freshly killed rabbit i gave a hand squeal and the greedy git dropped the rabbit and came in to the call id say its just part of there instinct to come and investigate a distress call.

Mark.

Neo Researcher

tikkamark

Thats great. Fair play to ye. I think I will be over around your way Tuesday alright. But will PM you later on tommorow when I know exactly when. Will be later in the day to as I have 6 foxes to disect tommorow first. Ye are keeping me busy these days Im not complaining tough looks like I should have enough by Christmas

Neo Researcher

Trojan,
Ya, no problem. I will let you know what your foxes have consumed as we get through them. Its a slow process tough, with such a wide variety of potential food and the food being already chewed and partialy digested it takes a while to get the knack of it. I have done it on wolves before from scats, but it was much easier. Tend to mainly have only one prey species in each scat and more often than not it was a deer.

Unfortunately i would say it would be pretty hard to detect that "dope". For some reason I was expecting there to be loads of it! I would imagine kits would have to be purchased/developed to detect traces of the chemicals found in it. This equipment would be outside the budjet of my project. I will however keep an eye in the literature for any mention of it.

On the calling aspect, TikkaMark seems to have answered your question better than I could from my experience of seeing foxes. Another study I mentioned earlier found only 11% of foxes shot to have empty stomachs, so presuming shooting techniques were the same, they seemed to have being coming on a full stomach. I would say even when they are full they would be pretty likely to investigate an easy meal. As a scavanger they are opportunists and also can cache food away for safe keeping when they need it.

Having said that it would still be interesting to see how long since their last meal it has been. I will have a think about the best way it can be done and if we can do it. At the moment my brain is fried from driving around the country tricker treating for foxes. If this msg makes no sense I blame that!

I will post pics of the bullet fragments and so on as soon as I can. Happily up the walls at the moment.

Cheers
Peter

Laoiser

This is great! I'm one of the guys motivated mainly by my stomach (not quite true really!) and I'd like to try to have a go at Foxes to help the local lads out but had a bit of an issue as I wouldn't be sure what to do with them. I never like to simply 'discard' a kill. (Hence why the local farmers are a bit puzzled as to why I'm not interested in magpies! Although, of course, the guys that do take on that work are fair enough in my book)

Now I know there's an genuinely useful outlet, I won't hesitate!!!

Trojan911

tikkamark wrote: »

I have even seen it myself twice one night we spotted a fox trotting off with a freshly killed rabbit i gave a hand squeal and the greedy git dropped the rabbit and came in to the call id say its just part of there instinct to come and investigate a distress call.Mark.

Some of the recent foxes I have seen have been way out of range but do not respond to our calls (a very realistic scrape of aeroboard on glass) they just sit in the grass so the assumtion formed is they have full bellies & are not interested.

But then others have run so fast to the call we have had to stop calling so the fox will stop running so to get a stationary humane kill. Some of these foxes would literally come within shotgun range.

But to back up your post re the greediness, some have raced in to the call & and upon examination after they had fat bellies & were unusually heavy where others were shot sitting in the grass and were very light.

TJ911...

Neo Researcher

Some of the lads giving me foxes have been asking me to retrieve bits of bullets where possible. Its actually hard enough to find them but here are some interesting ones. I wasnt sure if the pics belonged in the hunting or hardware pics but I suppose they belong here as who else is going to dig out your bullets for you

Since all donations are anonymous I will let the lads who shot the bullets come forward themselves to explain what round it was and so on if they want. Until then I guess you can have fun trying to guess what they are

from pelt



From stomach



This one was interesting as the fox it came from was killed by dogs and I was assured it was not shot so this looks like it is from a fox that was shot and survived

sidneyreilly

I'm guesiing .22WMR on 1. and .17HMR on 2.?

johngalway

.223 hollow point,
.223 ballistic tip,
12ga BB

But I'm just guessing

tikkamark

The one from the stomach-i was using american eagles hollow point 50gr bullets and hornady v-max polymer tipped 55gr bullets so it could be either the base of the bullet is actually flat so it must be the hollow point as the v-max have a boat tail now that i think of it:)Good pics peter thanks for sticking them up;)I can have faith that my 1:8 twist rifling is doing the trick nicely the grooves in that bullet look very smooth and uniform and the bullet did not disintigrate on impact:)
John is bang on with the guess on the bb id say it looks to be a fairly large pellet someone must have fired at it at to far a distance sometime earlier in its life because that fox was definitly not shot at the time it met its maker.

meathstevie

great to have your personal forensic vet Mark

Neo Researcher

There were no gun shot wounds either Tikkamark. I just thought I would ask to be sure. With those kind of things, people will tell you it had to have been shot when it died also, and you hear it enough and you start doubting yourself. But ya it must of had a lucky escape to be carrying around that shot and survived and healed itself. Well survived for a while longer anyway!

I found another bullet of yours in a fox. Will post up the pictures when I get a chance. Handy to know its the grooves your interested in. Will make sure to get them in the pic. Have another load of foxes waiting to go under the knife in the lab before I can go get my cam tough.

Peter

jaycee

I can't get over the amount of people obviously shooting
fox's with €1 coins ...

Strange ..

quackquackBOOM

jaycee wrote: »

I can't get over the amount of people obviously shooting
fox's with €1 coins ...

Strange ..

v good
somtimes it would be a cheaper approach

tikkamark

jaycee wrote: »

I can't get over the amount of people obviously shooting
fox's with €1 coins ...

Strange ..

:rolleyes:Theres always one:D

johngalway

jaycee wrote: »

I can't get over the amount of people obviously shooting
fox's with €1 coins ...

Strange ..

Not one bit strange, every try to group 50c's? Talk about a lost cause, all over the place! Two Euro coins are too heavy for 1:12 twist.

bunny shooter

When is jaycee's probation as a Mod up ? really € coins, what's strange about that ?

Neo Researcher

Just to let everyone who has been donating foxes to me know that I finished dissecting the last fox I need today:D Thanks a million to everyone who donated foxes to the project. It was really sound of ye as ye didnt have to do it, and I know its not any fun lugging them back across fields. I am still going to collect whatever foxes lads have saved for me in their freezers but bar that I am finished collecting for now. It was good meeting ye all and I learnt a fair bit from ye about foxes (as well as seeing nice parts of the country I never heard of before:o). Thanks again. I will let those who have donated foxes know the results as they become available.

I am still looking for mink tough so if anyone is catching them and would like to donate them to the project please let me know.

Thanks, sound, cheers I am off to sleep for a week
Neo Researcher

Neo Researcher

Here are some more bullet fragments I have dug out as requested.

This one looked blacker than the rest



This one actually had clear enough grooves but I couldnt arrange the light to get them seen clearly in the photo




This funky looking one I found just below the skin which is actually were you would expect to find them. But having said that the book I read that said that in it was written in 1980 so I guess bullets might have changed a bit since then. I often find them embeded in organs having ripped through heart, lungs, conective tissue etc. This may also be due to the fact that I dont look at shot placement as part of my project. I only do so as lads are interested in seeing the bullets. I do look at the organs more intensely to examine the health of the animal so therefore am more likely to find bullets there.



As with before I will let the lads who shot them say what they are

Neo Researcher

Just to reiterate I have enough foxes, thanks to everyone who donated them.

I am still looking for mink tough so its great to see the latest interest in them on the boards. Hope some of them will be able to head my way

quackquackBOOM

i really do think its wrong people shooting a fox with a .22lr especially a sub sonic, ive a 17hmr and still wouldnt try one over 75 yrds with it unless i could get a real good head shot with a 20 gr bullet and knew the animal wouldnt suffer.
Really center fires are the right way to dispatch of foxes.

thats just ignorance and blood lust or the "give it a go method".

johngalway

If the soapboxes were taken out of Boards.ie some people would have nothing to say

The last two pictures are Eley subsonic hollow points 40 grains. I dropped a fox with them while out after corvids. Not the first fox I've culled with the .22lr and I'm sure not the last.

I agree, and have stated publicly here and elsewhere that centrefire rifles are the only option for a dedicated foxing rifle. However, rimfires used within their respective ranges are effective tools for the occasional fox that presents himself like in the above situation.

"thats just ignorance and blood lust or the "give it a go method"." What you may not realise is that more foxes have been shot with a .22lr than all the other calibres put together (excepting shotguns). To say people who shoot foxes with .22's are have a go hero's is the ignorant statement. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, don't think it's gospel though.

Your criticism of subsonics is also baffling. A person should use the most accurate round in their rifle (whatever the calibre), and use it within it's effective range. More bang for your buck, such as a .22 HV round does not make for a more effective round. In general through testing in my own rifle HV rounds are quite a bit less accurate than subs in my rifle.

17REM

22lr is fine for foxes in its range, its muppets who dont know what its range is that are the problem.

Trojan911

johngalway wrote: »

If the soapboxes were taken out of Boards.ie some people would have nothing to say

Oi! Who took my soapbox?

johngalway wrote: »

The last two pictures are Eley subsonic hollow points 40 grains. I dropped a fox with them while out after corvids. Not the first fox I've culled with the .22lr and I'm sure not the last.

Agree. I dropped my first fox with a carefully aimed shot to the chest using a HV Stinger at 80yds & recently dropped a fox using a sub at 60yds. Both shots were killers.

bunny shooter

No denying 22lr will kill foxes, but ranges do have to be realistic. I know lads that claim to shoot foxes at 300 yards with 22wmr. Fair to say they shoot at them alright

17REM

thats a different kettle of fish altogether! have heard of a fox shot at 500yds with a 22lr!

quackquackboom you should educate yourself before you call people blood thirsty and ignorant, its you my friend who is ignorant :rolleyes:

quackquackBOOM

I know where you come from but are you telling me that every fox shot with a 22 lr dropped or that every person shooting one is capable of a well placed shot if you are then educate yourself
I am all up for shooting and i like a challenging shot but some people who shoot just dont care what it is they shoot or how as long as it is inflicting pain and these are the bloodlust people who give shooting a bad name
Im not saying it wont drop a fox but i just wouldnt use it myself and i do think it is wrong at long ranges,a quick clean kill would be better than having a suffering animal crawling away or into growth where it cant be found and dying over a day or two.
this brings me to the 500 yrd shot, how many foxes are walking around or even deer with a 22lr stuck in them which will eventully fester,cause fatal internal injuries and infection and die from it.Because of the "have a go method".And if you say this dosent happen its you who are ignorant.
Like i said i love to shoot but i dont see much use in cruelty to animals.it benifits nobody

johngalway

Just wondering if every duck you shoot dies instantly?

I have not put words in your mouth, do me the same courtesy please. I've said my piece, this isn't my thread so I'm not going to be fighting in it.

quackquackBOOM

i dont really shoot duck i tink ive only shot two and one of them was a spur of the moment with a no4 at 30 yrds ,,,,,,its just a name i used to register nothing to do with me personaly.i rarely even shoot game since my dog was shot by a blind man who thought a red setter running a ditch was a fox or else he didnt like my dog either way it was a tragedy and we miss bertie.
i never put words in your mouth in fact i wasnt even replying to you,im sorry if i hurt your feelings i didnt mean for this to happen, you seem to have taken it to heart like ive introduced a law which i havent so you can relax a little.
and i will admit that some of the animals i shot didnt die instantly,or i did choose the wrong cartridge from my belt and had to give them the second barrel.

quackquackBOOM

i agree with your last comment this is an intersting thread without this bikkering if you want to reply to me or anyone else for that matter pm me
we all have our opinions it seems that mine is very very different

17REM

quackquackboom that 500yd shot is from a bar stool hunter! total bs, its the fella who is behind the rifle thats important not the caiber. you put a .308 in the hands of a muppet and he can still wound a deer or fox. have a 223 for the job myself. you made a very sweeping statement saying all fellas who shoot foxes with a 22lr are blood lusty and ignorant

quackquackBOOM

I said pm me and stop taking up this thread

17REM

ouu ill do as you say so boss:rolleyes:

quackquackBOOM

thanks

tikkamark

Very interesting pics yet again peter them american eagle hollow points really expanded perfect very jagged looking edges on them giving a 100% humaine kill:)
I can see where your coming from quackquack boom unfortunatly there is a good few cowboys about with not a clue about the capabilities of there choosen caliber regardless of if its a .22lr or .243win firing at foxes and deer at stupid distances:mad: its all about having an intimate knowledge of the chosen cartridge a 22lr will certainly kill a fox but bullet placement has to be totally precise out to no further than 70yrds.Its ignorant to claim that whoever fired the .22lr bullets in the pic were 'blood lusty' when you dont know the curcumstances of the shot-distance-bullet placement ect;)