Complacent cylists urged to start using their heads -- and helmets

davej

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/complacent-cylists-urged-to-start-using-their-heads--and-helmets-1073172.html

I don't want to start another debate on the pros and cons of helmet wearing, but I guess now that children are back in school and summer holidays are over it's a good time to start a campaign like this.
But is it a bit much to be bascially threatening people - "Wear a helmet or you'll end up a vegetable" ?

davej

Mucco

Brain injury risk alert to cyclists

Bríd Higgins Ní Chinnéide - Irish Times

The Peter Bradley Foundation yesterday launched a campaign to raise awareness of acquired brain injury (ABI). The first stage of the Mind Your Head campaign is aimed at cyclists.

"Wearing a helmet is not only a preventative measure in terms of head injuries, it can also reduce time spent recovering in hospital and the duration spent in rehabilitation," said Barbara O'Connell, chief executive of the Peter Bradley Foundation.

Ms O'Connell said it was important for the Department of Health to recognise those with ABI as a distinct disability group so that funding could be allocated to developing further services.

"We continue to find people with ABI wrongly placed in psychiatric hospitals and nursing homes because of a lack of understanding and because there are no adequate support services," Ms O'Connell said.

dalk

davej wrote:

But is it a bit much to be bascially threatening people - "Wear a helmet or you'll end up a vegetable" ?

Its scare mongering. I wonder why there is a need to create a perception or reinforce a prejudice, that cycling is dangerous? I think a campaign like this will be more likely to just scare people off their bikes, rather than scaring them into wearing a helmet.

I guess its easier to just say "wear a helmet" & "wear high-vis" than to try and educate and promote good cycle craft, and responsible use of the road...

Civilian_Target

Yeah. Its a really sickening campaign, blantantly setup because some guy fell on his head without a helmet. May well ignore tha fact that he was cycling quite dangerously in some other manner. As usual, an ineffective magic wand solution because a helmet may have saved him.

Ghost Rider

Victor

They would be much better off focusing their energies on motor-caused injuries.

kmick

I am a full time cyclist and some of the behaviour I see by cyclists on the road leads me to believe a number of them already have an ABI. I believe helmets are useful even though I dont wear one. I do wear it on longer cycles but not on the short trip to work.

philstar

Well that report on ABI on RTE news last night inspired me to get a helmet today.

Can't say i like wearing it, i look like a dork and i feel like a dork.

Then again better to be a walking dork than a dork in a weelchair.

btw i get severe wind sheer on my ears when i wear the helmet as i cycle along the road, is this normal??

Victor

philstar wrote:

Can't say i like wearing it, i look like a dork and i feel like a dork.

Who cares? You don't have to look at it! And as you whizz by pedestrians, they won't be looking at it for long.

Be careful that you don't become too confident with it though, it won't stop accidents happening and only protects one part of you.

ThOnda

I have never felt difference in confidence having helmet or not, even my new helmet with chin protector. But I feel "naked" without helmet. It is like driving car without seat belts. Having helmet is just normal, like washing my hands before eating.
And talking about kids, the message must be a little simplier. I love that poster with "helmet hair", that's what I like.
There are tons of different shapes and colours, so I don't think anybody should think (s)he looks like a dork.
But it is just my private opinion. Bicycle ride = bicycle + helmet + gloves + glasses. It won't take you more than 5 seconds more to put it on before each ride. Are those five seconds worth being good example to your kids to wear helmet and protect their heads before they are less skilled bikers?

daymobrew

philstar wrote:

Can't say i like wearing it, i look like a dork and i feel like a dork.

I always advise people not to look in the mirror when wearing a helmet. Having said that, I really like the look of my Giro
Pneumo (in silver, not pink thank you very much )

There will come a point when, like ThOnda, you'll feel naked without it.

philstar wrote:

btw i get severe wind sheer on my ears when i wear the helmet as i cycle along the road, is this normal??

I get it too.

Victor wrote:

Be careful that you don't become too confident with it though, it won't stop accidents happening and only protects one part of you.

This cannot be stressed enough. It's better to avoid an accident in the first place.

fish-head

If you're going to wear a helmet, for god's sake don't use it.

Capt'n Midnight

How many cyclists died on our roads where a motorist wasn't involved ?

Enforcing existing laws would be a more productive option.

Speeding
Right of way, especially when turning left in front of a cyclist you have overtaken
Draconian punishments for disqualified drivers caught driving
Clamping down on unaccompanied L drivers
Curfews / zero alcohol tolerance for motorists under 21
enforcing bus lanes - it's €60 to be caught in a bus lane.


How much use is a cycling helmet if you get at 40mph /60 kmph or higher ?

Bearing in mind the AVERAGE speed on 30mph link road was measured at 41mph and fewer than 2% of drivers obeyed the speed limit.

Overall the benefits of cycling on health outway the risks, but most of the risks are preventable without needing helmets. Helmets are a sticking plaster solution, with a feel good factor, it does not improve safety in the way that off road bike lanes would.

How much benefit does a helmet give, does it reduce your risk of death or serious injury by more than 17%, because that the threshold where motorists should wear helmets !

ThOnda

We are not talking about reducing accidents, but reducing injuries. I would wear/use helmet even in cycle lane. Anybody can fall even in front ot their home door. Just imagine your dog jumping on you inviting you, you fall backwards and hit the fence or the wall with your head. Yes, blame cars for yor brain injury!
I give up, that makes no sense talking about helmets and road safety in one thread.

Johnny Jukebox

*sighs*. FWIW, I've raced both road and mountain bikes for years'n'years. I've fallen off hundreds of times, landing on my feet, my head, my ass, my back and so on. I've had lots of injuries, mostly minor with the odd more serious one. But I've never had a head injury, because I've always worn a helmet. The helmets havent been so fortunate...

banaco73

Anybody intrested in a new helmet

www.sugroo.com

They have a special on a shain helmet at the moment €39.99

This helmet retails for well over €100

Good Luck

rubadub

philstar wrote:

Can't say i like wearing it, i look like a dork and i feel like a dork.

Then again better to be a walking dork than a dork in a weelchair.[/I]

Are you going to wear it in the car too? I have read it offers more protection in a car than on a bike, even with airbags & seatbelts.

Do any people here would would not cycle without a helmet wear it in the car?

Better be a driving dork than a crippled dork.

The majority of injuries of people I know happen while walking drunk, but for some odd reason there are no TV campaigns advising people to get drinking helmets

TinyExplosions

banaco73 wrote:

Anybody intrested in a new helmet

www.sugroo.com

They have a special on a shain helmet at the moment €39.99

This helmet retails for well over €100

Good Luck

Cheers for that -just ordered one! Damn good price

Ghost Rider

You mean walking helmets, I take it! Anyway, I'd say the main reason there aren't any campaigns for walking helmets, or indeed any helmets for walking, is very simple: pedestrians don't share a space with motorists. Cyclists, on the other hand, do.

rubadub wrote:

The majority of injuries of people I know happen while walking drunk, but for some odd reason there are no TV campaigns advising people to get drinking helmets

robfitz

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

How many cyclists died on our roads where a motorist wasn't involved ?

In the last three years I make it to be three out of at least thirty fatal cycle accidents (My collection of Cycling Accident Stats).

2007-07-01, Meath, The man's bicycle crashed into a parked car shortly after midnight at Newcastle in Enfield.
2006-12-02, Dublin, A young mother cycling with her daughter lost control of her bicycle as she was crossing Parkgate Street in heavy winds
2005-09-08, Cork, the woman had cycled down a steep hill and crashed at around 8.30am

I'm sure wearing a helmet may have helped in some of these accidents, but the cause of these accidents would seem to be poor cycling/road skills.

robfitz

Ghost Rider wrote:

pedestrians don't share a space with motorists. Cyclists, on the other hand, do.

Yes, but are cycle helmets useful in an accident with a motor vehicle, have the been designed and test for this type of accident?

rubadub

Ghost Rider wrote:

You mean walking helmets, I take it! Anyway, I'd say the main reason there aren't any campaigns for walking helmets, or indeed any helmets for walking, is very simple: pedestrians don't share a space with motorists. Cyclists, on the other hand, do.

I am not talking of the danger from motorists to drunk people walking. As the previous posts showed it is not just motorists causing accidents.

Some people just seem to have a bias against cycling, i.e. somebody who would NEVER cycle without a helmet, yet would never consider wearing one in a car or out walking, even though it could possibly give them more protection in these instances than when cycling.

Ghost Rider

I'm pretty sure wearing a helmet would be more useful than not, and that's all I need to know.

My brain is soft; roads are hard. My skull gives some protection; a helmet will give even more. To me, it's as simple as that.

robfitz wrote:

Yes, but are cycle helmets useful in an accident with a motor vehicle, have the been designed and test for this type of accident?

Ghost Rider

Let me put it this way: I wear a helmet every day. Now if there were no motorists, I would never wear one. And I don't think that's remotely irrational.

rubadub wrote:

I am not talking of the danger from motorists to drunk people walking. As the previous posts showed it is not just motorists causing accidents.

I just don't get this line of argument. People in cars are effectively already wearing a helmet: a large steel helmet with an engine and windows. People on footpaths are off the road, so the risks of serious accident are minimal. Of course there's a risk of a car mounting the footpath, but then there's the risk of a piano falling from a fourth-floor apartment too...

rubadub wrote:

Some people just seem to have a bias against cycling, i.e. somebody who would NEVER cycle without a helmet, yet would never consider wearing one in a car or out walking, even though it could possibly give them more protection in these instances than when cycling.

Ghost Rider

I agree with this point. A lot of people are fudging the two issues. Nobody is suggesting helmets are a substitute for road safety or cycle craft or whatever you want to call it.

ThOnda wrote:

I give up, that makes no sense talking about helmets and road safety in one thread.

macplaxton

"Risk compensation"

I think helmets are of little use and don't wear one myself. Cycle lanes are rubbish too (stopping and starting). Wobbling about gets you some extra room!

This study is interesting.

I should get a long blonde wig!

I had an idiot driving at me (in my car) on my side of the road the other day :eek:. With really sloppy and downright dangerous driving behaviour like that going unpunished it's always going to be a lottery on the roads. You need education of all road users and strict enforcement. (or allow me to administer to the driver a good beating for his idoicy)

omri

I don't understand ppl moaning bout how do they look wearing helmet. You're wise you'll wear one. I don't move anywhere without mine. If you ever had a serious accident, then you realize how fragile human body is. Your safety is not only up to you...there's much more goin on the road, you can't control or see everything

So wear your helmet.
Mine's nice and I like it

Mucco

This helmet debate is old hat :-)

We should really campaign for the reduction in motorists' safety equipment: when seatbelts were made compulsory, motorist fatalities fell, but cyclist + pedestrian fatalities rose!

M

Ghost Rider

Off the top of my head, I'd say that's the worst joke I've heard all day.

Mucco wrote:

This helmet debate is old hat :-)

Victor

Ghost Rider wrote:

Let me put it this way: I wear a helmet every day. Now if there were no motorists, I would never wear one. And I don't think that's remotely irrational.

I can definitely see your point, but it is still true that cyclists die, without motorists present.

I just don't get this line of argument. People in cars are effectively already wearing a helmet: a large steel helmet with an engine and windows.

Not a very good helmet if 300 people per year get killed using them.

Indeed, this 'helmet' kills many people (500,000 per year worldwide).

People on footpaths are off the road, so the risks of serious accident are minimal. Of course there's a risk of a car mounting the footpath, but then there's the risk of a piano falling from a fourth-floor apartment too...

The car risk is much higher than the piano risk.

rubadub

Ghost Rider wrote:

Let me put it this way: I wear a helmet every day. Now if there were no motorists, I would never wear one. And I don't think that's remotely irrational.

That is fair enough. I would personally only wear a cycling helmet while mountain biking (with no cars around), I weigh up the risks, including the apparent danger wearing a helmet can put you in (e.g. cars not giving helmet wearers as much room, the helmet possibly causing worse injuries upon crashing due to its ergonomics and subsequent dynamics).

I do some dangerous tasks in work, I sometimes wear safety goggles, sometimes I chose not to since the goggles can obscure my vision and actually make the job more dangerous.

Ghost Rider wrote:

I just don't get this line of argument. People in cars are effectively already wearing a helmet: a large steel helmet with an engine and windows. People on footpaths are off the road, so the risks of serious accident are minimal. Of course there's a risk of a car mounting the footpath, but then there's the risk of a piano falling from a fourth-floor apartment too...

your main concern seems to be just the motorists, I am speaking of other concerns, such as danger to ones-self. I would recommend a helmet for a child, they are off the road and really a danger to themselves due to lack of experience. There was some study saying motorists would be afforded far more protection in a car from a crash when wearing a helmet. Seatbelts & airbags are supposed to offer relatively little protection compared to a helmet. Most rally drivers would not get in a car without one.

My point is people can be overly biased about protecting themselves while cycling, yet not in a car when a simple act such as wearing a helmet will reduce risk. An analogy would be somebody who would never dream of eating sugary foods, yet has no problem with high fat foods, for whatever reason.

It is as though they are blindly following "the norm", if people did start wearing helmets in cars they might too. Cycling helmets are relatively new to the common commuter. Maybe people are scared of looking "like dorks", if they wore one in a car, or out drinking

ThOnda

There are some ideas here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OfRiFylmiS0

It is not about helmets, but still good to see what could be done for active safet of cyclists.

ThOnda

By the way, you can choose a helmet, some people have to wear mandatory helmets without that priviledge...

Civilian_Target

Ghost Rider wrote:

Let me put it this way: I wear a helmet every day. Now if there were no motorists, I would never wear one. And I don't think that's remotely irrational.

Oh really? The only time I've ever been unfortunate enough to use my helmet, there were no other vehicles involved. I slipped on an oil spill in the rain and fell.

If I hadn't had a helmet, I might have taken the roundabout more slowly. I might not have, in which case I could be a veggie right now.

I wear a helmet but I suspect the immediate benefit of wearing a helmet on the roads is virtually nil, especially if you're not going fast. The campaign would be more effective if it was to get people to use lights.

jaycummins

i do enjoy wearing a helmet. i cant go over 20kmph without a helmet cos i'd just be so scared of falling off. with a helmet on i sort of know that if something knocks me off, i might break a leg or an arm but my head and brain will be grand. even if you are only going to work and you decie not to wear the helmet. when your family hear that you've hit your head against the curb and have brain damage, theyre not gonna think, well at least he didnt look like an idiot going into work that day. i always wear my helmet and im afraid of falling off when im not wearing one. to be honest tho, i dont wear it if im going to the shops cos i couldnt be botherd. its like 50metres away. wear you helmet guys.

rubadub

jaycummins wrote:

i cant go over 20kmph without a helmet cos i'd just be so scared of falling off. .

In other words the helmet gives you a sense of security so you take more risks. Some would say that it a bad thing since a helmet doesnt offer as much protection as you might think. This is one of the reasons why accidents may have increased in some countries with mandatory helmets.

jaycummins

i know what you mean, but all i am saying is i cant cycle properly unless i know my head is protected. im not saying i going swerving in between cars just because i have a helmet on. but i cycle better because im more confident with it on. so what if i do get in an accident, as long as its not a car hitting me from the side at 40kmph im basically fine and i know i wont have and damage to my brain. i do feel like an idiot tho when i see someone i know and im there with my matching helmet and cycling jersey. lol. its worht it tho.

Victor

You still risk face, neck and chest injuries that could be as serious as a blow to the skull.

Carawaystick

There are two main standards for bicycle helmets. Snell's is probably the tougher
"... it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection"
Dr. George Shively, The Snell Memorial Foundation

The main test is a helmet is dropped a height of about 2m to simulate a fall off a stationary bike.

If you want to be protected at speeds above 20kmh, you need a motorbike helmet. These actually are designed to protect a human head at these speeds.

Jay, Why do you think you'ld fall if you weren't hit by a car?
Would you wear a back protector like motorcyclists do to protect your spine?
Do you wear gloves? to protect hands in a crash?
Do you wear face protection? a Bicycle helmet covers less than half your head.

You seem to place an awful lot of faith is a bicycle helmet which is not designed to protect you for what you think it does.

see http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/hfaq.html

I'm not saying don't wear a helmet, just lear about the limitations of them and accept them for what they are.

kenmc

TinyExplosions wrote:

Cheers for that -just ordered one! Damn good price

Me too. ordered it yesterday at 4pm got it this morning! That's a fantastic service, will be using Sugroo again for sure!

DITTKD

In a court situation, saying you were wearing a helmet will sound good to the judge.

Also, well designed helmets make you more aerodynamic than you would be without a helmet.

The first point there is the best argument I can think of for helmet usage, IMO.

davej

davej wrote:

I don't want to start another debate on the pros and cons of helmet wearing

Oh well

Perhaps we should be done with it and create a helmet debate sticky ?
I wear a helmet most of the time (always when commuting). If I'm going for a cycle in and around the local park I sometimes don't bother.

DITTKD - good point about the court scenario. I'm sure the absence/presence of high vis jacket and lights etc is all taken into account.

Maybe I have it totally wrong but I would imagine most deaths involving vehicles occur due to the cyclist being crushed to death / run over. A helmet isn't going to save you in this situation. So at best it might provide some protection in a moderate incident where something collides with the top of your head.

davej

TinyExplosions

kenmc wrote:

Me too. ordered it yesterday at 4pm got it this morning! That's a fantastic service, will be using Sugroo again for sure!

Mine still not arrived yet, but that's An Post, not Sugroo!

ceidefields

Look, a bicycle helmet is just another safety measure designed to reduce the risk of a life-threatening injury. Nobody ever claimed they were the perfect solution but they do protect the most important part of your anatomy. As for bashing your skull in as opposed to hurting your arm or leg, do we really have to spell it out that injuring your head could potentially be more serious? Bicycle helmets have the same function as a motorbike helmet. And yes, I also wear gloves when cycling and a jacket.

Anyone who has cycled more than 30 minutes in their lifetime would realize that most falls off bicycles don't involve cars but potholes, steep hills, gravel, oil, rain etc.

the_syco

davej wrote:

But is it a bit much to be bascially threatening people - "Wear a helmet or you'll end up a vegetable" ?

After 3 days in a coma, I woke up in a hostpal bed. You can actually see the indent into the helmet made by the windscreen wiper.

Victor wrote:

You still risk face, neck and chest injuries that could be as serious as a blow to the skull.

Oh, and if you're hit, you can break bones. Bones heal. Break your skull, and you're f**ked.

Mucco

DITTKD wrote:

In a court situation, saying you were wearing a helmet will sound good to the judge.

It's not really the judge that matters, as most compensation claims are settled. In the UK, a 25% reduction in compensation due to contributory negligence seems to be standard (for insurance companies), quite unfairly in my opinion. 50% of fatalities in London are due to being crushed by a HGV, I'm not sure if a lump of polystyrene would help in this situation.

ozchick

Isn't prevention better than cure?

I'm glad I live in a country where it is compulsory to wear helmets and will ALWAYS have mine on my noodle in Dublin.

Cycling isn't dangerous, but sharing roads with cars and trucks that ups the risks

I've heard of too many people who have had accidents through no fault of their own and helmets have saved them from fhead injury.

When the campaign was launched I had to laugh at the picture of the 16 year old picture wearing a helmet, halfway up her head, wouldn't have saved her face in a stack. Was going to contact the organisation, but was leaving the country that day

ThOnda

I was thinking about it a little and I have found very nice parallel:
helmet on bike equals seat belts in car

Seat belts won't prevent crashes, won't make you drive in more aggresive way, they won't make you feel you being better driver. They are mandatory, but you've got used to them and noone dares discussing they meaning in a car.

So, does somebody think that it could be nice parallel? Or reall parallel?

skidpatches

ThOnda wrote:

Seat belts won't prevent crashes, won't make you drive in more aggresive way, they won't make you feel you being better driver.

risk compensation suggests that they DO... the more you reduce the risk, the more people change their behaviour to increase it again.

All things being equal, a helmet will make you safer in one individual incident. Falling on your head with a helmet is better than falling on your head without one. Similarly wearing a high vis jacket will make you visible to a drunk, distracted or speeding motorist a few seconds sooner than if you were wearing dark clothing.

However, that's only half the story... It is my belief that helmets, high vis jackets, etc actually increase the risk to cyclists as a whole in the long term, because motorists increasingly expect them, and they don't take as much care as a result.

When I was growing up in the 1980s, I remember people driving more slowly at night because it was difficult to see pedestrians especially on country roads. These days, so many pedestrians wear high vis jackets, and funnily enough, so many motorists drive at their normal daytime speed. Motorists don't expect to see many pedestrians on country roads and expect those that do to be wearing high vis.

My fear is that with so many cyclists wearing high vis in dublin they will become required for everyone... when the real problem is speeding distracted motorists.

The best thing for the safety of cyclists collectively is for there to be more cyclists, wearing normal clothes, and no compulsion on helmets.

Take a look at these two photo blogs from copenhagen, where cycling is just another way of getting around... no special safety gear required.
http://copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/
http://cycleliciousness.blogspot.com/

Mucco

ThOnda wrote:

I was thinking about it a little and I have found very nice parallel:
helmet on bike equals seat belts in car

Seat belts won't prevent crashes, won't make you drive in more aggresive way, they won't make you feel you being better driver.

Statistics suggest otherwise: when seatbelts became compulsory, motorist fatalities were reduced, but pedestrian and cyclist fatalities rose.

An interesting aside is that even before seatbelts were made compulsory, it was considered contributory negligence not to be wearing one (in the UK).

M

Civilian_Target

ozchick wrote:

Isn't prevention better than cure?

sigh Helmets don't prevent accidents. They almost certainly increase the risk of them. There's substantial research to suggest that drivers leave less road space (on average) to cyclists wearing helmets to those not wearing.

Cycling isn't dangerous, but sharing roads with cars and trucks that ups the risks

I've heard of too many people who have had accidents through no fault of their own and helmets have saved them from fhead injury.

That depends on how you cycle. If the road surface becomes unexpectedly slippery, then it's very dangerous. And thats when you really need the helmet on your noodle. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055128309

I've seen people wearing helmets die on the road, without anything going near their heads. I've never heard anything other than urban legends of helmets saving people in collisions with cars, nor can I recall any solid evidence on the subject, particularly when one considers the increased likelihood of an accident induced by wearing a helmet.

When the campaign was launched I had to laugh at the picture of the 16 year old picture wearing a helmet, halfway up her head, wouldn't have saved her face in a stack. Was going to contact the organisation, but was leaving the country that day

Yeah, you see that so often, I call it "a decorative helmet"