Questions for Noel and other believers

Pinker

I wasnt sure if this should be in the Atheists section as its preaching to the converted but anyway to all the believers here goes...


1. Assuming you are a religious man/woman possibly even a roman catholic, what will you say to "God" if you get to heaven and it transpires it's a god from a different religion?....But if you are one of the fortunate few and it is your chosen God what do you think he say to all those who worshipped other gods and denied his/her existence?...Finally why does this God need such adoration, why the need to worship?


2.Secondly why would anyone wish to exist for eternity, now that sounds like my idea of hell!...Please share your thoughts,


Warm regards,
Pinker

Dades

I would liken those questions to goading, myself, but since Noel did suggest you start a new thread I guess we have to sit back and watch any replies.

JC 2K3

1. Because he is almighty and we are not worthy of him, therefore we must show our devotion through worship.

2. Because God has so much joy he has yet to reveal to us in Heaven which we cannot comprehend here on Earth.


Expect many answers like this.

Man, am I getting bored of this place.

hairyheretic

Another possibility you might want to consider is that there is more than one 'heaven'. Who is to say that the afterlife of each belief system may not exist, each one there for the adherents of that belief?

Talliesin

Pinker wrote:

Assuming you are a religious man/woman possibly even a roman catholic,

Does that qualifying clause mean this is only for Catholics? I'm not Catholic, though I'm a believer.

Pinker wrote:

what will you say to "God" if you get to heaven and it transpires it's a god from a different religion?

Probably much the same as you, but without random superfluous ellipses.

Pinker wrote:

But if you are one of the fortunate few and it is your chosen God what do you think he say to all those who worshipped other gods and denied his/her existence?

"Who gives a ****?"

Pinker wrote:

Finally why does this God need such adoration, why the need to worship?

Hey, everyone likes a little adoration. Further giving the gods energy raised helps them.

Pinker wrote:

Secondly why would anyone wish to exist for eternity, now that sounds like my idea of hell!

Don't know about eternity but it's been interesting so far.

If you are unhappy with your life fix that now rather than worrying about the next few millennia.

Pinker

Talliesin wrote:

Does that qualifying clause mean this is only for Catholics? I'm not Catholic, though I'm a believer.

Yes this is aimed at Noel as its from another thread and he requested it be given its own thread, so as a result its aimed at catholics, primarily.


[/QUOTE]"Who gives a ****?"[/QUOTE]

Hmm good answer Tallsin

[/QUOTE]Hey, everyone likes a little adoration. Further giving the gods energy raised helps them.[/QUOTE].

.How does your "energy raised" get to them, and therefore help them?

[/QUOTE]Don't know about eternity but it's been interesting so far.[/QUOTE]

Yes its been more than fascinating, but our lifespans are so incredibly short, maybe you cant quite grasp eternity, but its considerably longer than 30years...

[/QUOTE]If you are unhappy with your life fix that now rather than worrying about the next few millennia.[/QUOTE] Where did anyone mention unhappiness???Pleases show me, and who mentioned anything about worrying, and eternity is a little bit more than millenia

kelly1

Pinker wrote:

1. Assuming you are a religious man/woman possibly even a roman catholic, what will you say to "God" if you get to heaven and it transpires it's a god from a different religion?

I would be seriously shocked!

Pinker wrote:

....But if you are one of the fortunate few and it is your chosen God what do you think he say to all those who worshipped other gods and denied his/her existence?

In order to be saved, we must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son and that He died for the forgiveness of sins. God being fair, will take "invincible ignorance" into account. Those who have never heard the Gospel, through no fault of their own, cannot be held accountable for not following Christ's teachings. Having said that we all have a conscience to follow.

Pinker wrote:

...Finally why does this God need such adoration, why the need to worship?

God doesn't actually need us or our worship. He is totally self-sufficent but He created us to share in His happiness. God *deserves* our adoration because He created us and is so good to us. Often we can't see this but I believe God always does what's best for us.

Pinker wrote:

2.Secondly why would anyone wish to exist for eternity, now that sounds like my idea of hell!...Please share your thoughts,

You are thinking purely in human terms. With respect, your idea of God is seriously lacking. Heaven's not about entertainment. It's about love. It is God's plan that we spend an eternity united with Him in a state of pure joy that's ever new and never stale or boring. How could God be boring???

Pinker wrote:

Warm regards,
Pinker

Thanks Same to you.

Zillah

kelly1 wrote:

God being fair, will take "invincible ignorance" into account. Those who have never heard the Gospel, through no fault of their own, cannot be held accountable for not following Christ's teachings. Having said that we all have a conscience to follow.

I had no control over the forces in my life that turned me into the person I am. Ultimately we're products of genes and environment. My rejection of the Bible as nonesense is no more under my power than the ancient tribesman who never heard the Gospel. You'd think an omniscient being that transcends space and time would be able to see that.

kelly1

Zillah wrote:

I had no control over the forces in my life that turned me into the person I am. Ultimately we're products of genes and environment. My rejection of the Bible as nonesense is no more under my power than the ancient tribesman who never heard the Gospel. You'd think an omniscient being that transcends space and time would be able to see that.

You have free will don't you? You can decide between right and wrong, can't you? If you reject the words of the Gospel, that's YOUR CHOICE and God will not force you to do otherwise.

Pinker

kelly1 wrote:

You are thinking purely in human terms. With respect, your idea of God is seriously lacking. Heaven's not about entertainment. It's about love. It is God's plan that we spend an eternity united with Him in a state of pure joy that's ever new and never stale or boring. How could God be boring???.

My idea of god is that he doesn't exist so yes maybe it's lacking. I never suggested heaven is about entertainment, you did. I do suggest that anything that lasts for eternity would be unbearable. He could be boring in many ways.

I have learnt from reading your replies to various topics that you refuse to critically analyse your choices and your perfectly happy to cite scripture and use rhetoric where and when it suits, this is perfectly understandable. I do struggle however to understand how anyone can still believe in a god but thats their prerogative.

I guess it gives them meaning in what they believe would an otherwise meaningless existence, I get my meaning from other areas of my life. To be alive is amazing enough without need for a simplistic answer of 'God made it, or god said'. Why people need a specific overriding meaning to their life is understandable I guess, but I find the 'God said' answer a bit underwhelming.

For reasons yet unkown we are here, that we are here is an amazing occurence, to be part of this world and be able to appreciate it in all its glory is a miracle enough for me.

kelly1

Pinker wrote:

I have learnt from reading your replies to various topics that you refuse to critically analyse your choices and your perfectly happy to cite scripture and use rhetoric where and when it suits, this is perfectly understandable. I do struggle however to understand how anyone can still believe in a god but thats their prerogative.

As we both know, nobody can prove God's existence and nobody can prove His non-existence. Personally, I'm convinced by heaps of "anecdotal" evidence (e.g. reading the about the lives of the saints) and personal experience. I've had many prayers answered that have increased my faith. Things always go best for me when I make an effort to do God's will. My life has changed very dramatically since I decided to seek God and I consider my full conversion to the Catholic faith to be a small miracle.

No amount of logical reasoning and rhetoric is going to convince anyone of the existence of God. God is not subject to scientific observation. God will only "reveal" Himself when we take the first step towards Him. He respects our free will and when we choose to seek Him sincerely, you can be sure He will meet us half way. Faith is a gift from God but we must ask humbly for it. If you don't like humilily, you're at nothing. Warning scriptural passage follows!

Luke 1:51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

God bless,
Noel.

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

Faith is a gift from God but we must ask humbly for it. If you don't like humilily, you're at nothing.

Hmm. What about the humble atheist?

humbly,
Scofflaw

Pinker

kelly1 wrote:

I've had many prayers answered that have increased my faith. Things always go best for me when I make an effort to do God's will. My life has changed very dramatically since I decided to seek God and I consider my full conversion to the Catholic faith to be a small miracle.

Its true, theres none more pure than a reformed hoor

kelly1

Scofflaw wrote:

Hmm. What about the humble atheist?

humbly,
Scofflaw

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. He trusts science/man will (eventually) provide all the answers. That to me is arrogance. Humans will never find the answers to life's problems if they trust in themselves alone. I think you need only look at the daily news to see this.

Regards,
Noel.

Ciaran500

kelly1 wrote:

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. He trusts science/man will (eventually) provide all the answers.

You're assuming everyone needs to answer every question. I'm certainly living a happy life not knowing for definite the answers to some questions.

kelly1 wrote:

That to me is arrogance. Humans will never find the answers to life's problems if they trust in themselves alone. I think you need only look at the daily news to see this.

Are you implying only people who don't believe in god make the news?

The Mad Hatter

kelly1 wrote:

Luke 1:51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

But hath He?

Ekthcuthe my lithp.

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

I had no control over the forces in my life that turned me into the person I am. Ultimately we're products of genes and environment. My rejection of the Bible as nonesense is no more under my power than the ancient tribesman who never heard the Gospel. You'd think an omniscient being that transcends space and time would be able to see that.

Hey Zillah, you have a brain therefore you can make choices and are therefore responsible for those choices.

Your rejection of the Bible is under your power because you choose to deny it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

kelly1 wrote:

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. He trusts science/man will (eventually) provide all the answers. That to me is arrogance. Humans will never find the answers to life's problems if they trust in themselves alone. I think you need only look at the daily news to see this.

Regards,
Noel.

If I was religious I'd consider it arrogance to think I a lowly Homosapien had chosen the correct god.

If there is a god, I reckon Athiests would get an interview. But you Christians have been pissing Zeus/Allah/Ganeesh/Ra/Marilyn Manson/Me/*insert other god from choice of hundreds here* off big time. Straight to Hell for you lot!

I don't know any religious folk who've solved all of life's problems so that point is invalid.

Son Goku

kelly1 wrote:

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. He trusts science/man will (eventually) provide all the answers. That to me is arrogance. Humans will never find the answers to life's problems if they trust in themselves alone. I think you need only look at the daily news to see this.

An atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in God, that's it. For instance one can be an atheist and think science/man can't provide all the answers.

Also you hinge on a vague definition of the phrase "all the answers". For instance I think history has shown that science gives an answer to most well formulated questions about the natural world. However you've mixed this meaning of "all the answers" with the meaning that refers to answers to social and philosophical problems.
I doubt most atheists would think science will answer social problems.

What do you see on the news that demonstrates humanity can't rely on itself?

BrianCalgary

Pinker wrote:

I wasnt sure if this should be in the Atheists section as its preaching to the converted but anyway to all the believers here goes...


1. Assuming you are a religious man/woman possibly even a roman catholic, what will you say to "God" if you get to heaven and it transpires it's a god from a different religion?....But if you are one of the fortunate few and it is your chosen God what do you think he say to all those who worshipped other gods and denied his/her existence?...Finally why does this God need such adoration, why the need to worship?

I'd be shocked, yet prepared to accept whatever comes.

I would imagine wicknight would want to argue with Him freewill and genocide. Robin may shrug his shoulders and be off to where he is going, The Atheist will be totally shocked.

Our adoration and worship of God brings Him into the forefront of our lives. It allows us to make sure we are operating in His will, which brings the most fruitful satisfying life one can have.

Pinker wrote:

2.Secondly why would anyone wish to exist for eternity, now that sounds like my idea of hell!...Please share your thoughts,


Warm regards,
Pinker

Ahh, Heaven, the opportunity to explore the universe and evrything in it. The chance to play games and sports that I have never played before. I may even enjoy music and concerts. :eek:

All the people to meet and talk with from different times and places, to hear their experiences and stories first hand.

The food, the scenary, travel opportunities.

And that is just for starters.

robindch

kelly1 wrote:

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. [...] That to me is arrogance.

I don't immediately see what's arrogant about choosing not to believe what somebody else believes!

You should try to remember that we don't believe that you are in direct contact with the creator of the universe and we don't believe that you are in a position to speak on his behalf (and think it's vaguely arrogant of you to seem to think that you do).

Our rejection, in general, is of your beliefs, not of the creator (if there is one) of the universe. In exactly the same way that you reject the beliefs of all those people who believed in Jupiter, Zeus, Thor, Baal, Ahura Mazda and all the thousands of other gods to whose existence you are an atheist.

kelly1

kelly1 wrote:

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. He trusts science/man will (eventually) provide all the answers. That to me is arrogance. Humans will never find the answers to life's problems if they trust in themselves alone. I think you need only look at the daily news to see this.

Regards,
Noel.

You seem to be confused as to the difference between "god doesn't exist" and "god does exist but I don't need god".

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote:

Hey Zillah, you have a brain therefore you can make choices and are therefore responsible for those choices.

From the point of view of an omniscient entity, not really no. Every factor in my brain that causes me to choose to reject the Bible was caused by something else in the universe that is entirely out of my control, be it my genes or my environment.

Its simple cause and effect. I was as destined to not be a Christian just as much as the ancient tribesman who never heard of the Gospel.

Pinker

Son Goku wrote:

An atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in God, that's it. For instance one can be an atheist and think science/man can't provide all the answers.

Also you hinge on a vague definition of the phrase "all the answers". For instance I think history has shown that science gives an answer to most well formulated questions about the natural world. However you've mixed this meaning of "all the answers" with the meaning that refers to answers to social and philosophical problems.
I doubt most atheists would think science will answer social problems.

What do you see on the news that demonstrates humanity can't rely on itself?

I'd like to second these sentiments.
Noel please stop assuming you know what a person thinks just because one is an atheist, its really rather rude of you, atheist are a varied bunch with many different interests, like priests or any other group with a single similiar bond.

I, as an atheist, have never claimed science has all the answers, science does however provide me with many answers which are supportable by evidence that hasn't come from a single persons claims but has been tested and verified many times,....

Your reference to the news is so vague I could easily turn it on its head and say look at the trouble god has caused again, but I won't

Dades

Which is more arrogant:

1. Believing we are just carbon-based life forms that evolved on a rock orbiting a small star at the edge of a small galaxy, in a practically infinite cosmos; or

2. Believing that we alone are the chosen children of the Creator, and that practically infinite cosmos is just decoration.

The first comes across to me as the more humble.

Zillah

The Atheist wrote:

Which is more arrogant:

1. Believing we are just carbon-based life forms that evolved on a rock orbiting a small star at the edge of a small galaxy, in a practically infinite cosmos; or

2. Believing that we alone are the chosen children of the Creator, and that practically infinite cosmos is just decoration.

The first comes across to me as the more humble.

Playing devil's advocate:

Which is more arrogant?

1. Loving and obeying the creator of the universe, who died for our sins and only wishes to welcome us into his love.

2. Rejecting God and believing you can live a good life without his divine guidance.

The first comes across to [insert believer here] as the more humble.



Now, both of these require an initial assumption regarding the existence of God. Thats the real argument here.

God doesn't exist so you're actually right.

Agent J

Not all Gods go with the Jesus complex.

Heard a Great term the other day.

"Christian Atheists"

They don't believe in the Abrhamic God and don't even entertain the concept of Gods/ Goddesses outside of that.

You should be an equal oppertunities unbeliever!

kelly1

Son Goku wrote:

...
I doubt most atheists would think science will answer social problems.

What do you see on the news that demonstrates humanity can't rely on itself?

Yes, I'm referring to social and political problems: wars, murders, poverty, crime, drugs, corrupt politics etc. I think it's very clear that that we as a human race are virtually out of control. We're unable to fix our own problems. It's also clear to me that self-reliance and non-reliance on God are at the root of our problems.

It's a bit like two people in a partnership who are having relationship problems.
Without an third party, they can't see their own problems. They each cling to their own selfish needs and disregard the needs of the other. So you bring in a mediator who can view the situation from the outside who can show them where they're going wrong. In the same way, only when we turn to God will we see the error of our ways.

Regards,
Noel.

kelly1

Zillah wrote:

From the point of view of an omniscient entity, not really no. Every factor in my brain that causes me to choose to reject the Bible was caused by something else in the universe that is entirely out of my control, be it my genes or my environment.

Its simple cause and effect. I was as destined to not be a Christian just as much as the ancient tribesman who never heard of the Gospel.

Doesn't that make you an automaton/puppet? So if you murder someone, you blame your genes/environment??

kelly1

Pinker wrote:

I'd like to second these sentiments.
Noel please stop assuming you know what a person thinks just because one is an atheist, its really rather rude of you, atheist are a varied bunch with many different interests, like priests or any other group with a single similiar bond.

I, as an atheist, have never claimed science has all the answers, science does however provide me with many answers which are supportable by evidence that hasn't come from a single persons claims but has been tested and verified many times,....

Your reference to the news is so vague I could easily turn it on its head and say look at the trouble god has caused again, but I won't

Apologies for assumptions made and rudeness.

kelly1

The Atheist wrote:

Which is more arrogant:

1. Believing we are just carbon-based life forms that evolved on a rock orbiting a small star at the edge of a small galaxy, in a practically infinite cosmos; or

2. Believing that we alone are the chosen children of the Creator, and that practically infinite cosmos is just decoration.

The first comes across to me as the more humble.

Obviously this is base on my faith that God exists. If my faith is correct then the first is tragic and the second is just truth, not arrogance. If you're right then the first is true and the second is delusional.

I don't know if any other beings exist outside earth but so far we have no evidence and God hasn't revealed this to us one way or the other.

Dades

kelly1 wrote:

If my faith is correct then the first is tragic and the second is just truth, not arrogance. If you're right then the first is true and the second is delusional.

Spot on there. You subscribe to (2) and many here subscribe to (1).

So depending on which side of the fence you stand, the truth of the two statements is totally different. Remember for believers of (1) however, this is not a rejection of God - more a rejection of the concept of god. To reject God you would have to believe in his existence in the first place.

*edited for being a gimp with numbers!

Attractive Nun

kelly1 wrote:

Yes, I'm referring to social and political problems: wars, murders, poverty, crime, drugs, corrupt politics etc. I think it's very clear that that we as a human race are virtually out of control. We're unable to fix our own problems. It's also clear to me that self-reliance and non-reliance on God are at the root of our problems.

Whereas, in other times (Medieval Europe, for example), when virtually everyone believed in God and put a lot more effort into practising his 'will', things were fine and dandy?

kelly1

Attractive Nun wrote:

Whereas, in other times (Medieval Europe, for example), when virtually everyone believed in God and put a lot more effort into practising his 'will', things were fine and dandy?

If people truly did God's will, there wouldn't be any problems to speak of. I think it's fair to say that most of the world's problems are rooted in selfishness.

kelly1

kelly1 wrote:

If people truly did God's will, there wouldn't be any problems to speak of. I think it's fair to say that most of the world's problems are rooted in selfishness.

Let's not get into scotsman fallacy =/

kelly1

bluewolf wrote:

Let's not get into scotsman fallacy =/

Sorry, you've lost me there.

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

bluewolf wrote:

Let's not get into scotsman fallacy =/

Sorry, you've lost me there.

It's the problem of reverse definition, a form of circular argument:

1. X argues that being a Christian makes people good

2. Y raises counter-example of A, a Christian who is bad

3. X states that A cannot be a real Christian, because otherwise A would be good

One can use it to argue absolutely anything. I could, for example, claim that all Scotsmen are violent. Any counter-example of famous Scottish pacifists would be met with the dismissal that such people are not true Scotsmen, because true Scotsmen are violent.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kelly1

Scofflaw wrote:

It's the problem of reverse definition, a form of circular argument:

1. X argues that being a Christian makes people good

2. Y raises counter-example of A, a Christian who is bad

3. X states that A cannot be a real Christian, because otherwise A would be good

One can use it to argue absolutely anything. I could, for example, claim that all Scotsmen are violent. Any counter-example of famous Scottish pacifists would be met with the dismissal that such people are not true Scotsmen, because true Scotsmen are violent.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't see how this applies to my point really. Being Christian doesn't automatically mean you never sin. If everyone lived according to the Gospel of Christ i.e. love God and you neighbour, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, don't judge others, don't be a hypocrite etc, the world would be a far better place. Of course this isn't going to happen anytime soon...

kelly1

kelly1 wrote:

I don't see how this applies to my point really. Being Christian doesn't automatically mean you never sin. If everyone lived according to the Gospel of Christ i.e. love God and you neighbour, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, don't judge others, don't be a hypocrite etc, the world would be a far better place. Of course this isn't going to happen anytime soon...

Except back in medieval times they were all christian and supposedly following the gospel. And you say they couldn't be because there were still problems.
Hence, the scotsman fallacy.

Dades

kelly1 wrote:

If everyone lived according to the Gospel of Christ i.e. love God and you neighbour, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, don't judge others, don't be a hypocrite etc, the world would be a far better place. Of course this isn't going to happen anytime soon...

What would be the difference be if everybody was do all the above except the "love God" part?

If the world all acted like Buddhists, for example, it would be a pretty shiny place too.

Gegerty

kelly1 wrote:

As we both know, nobody can prove God's existence and nobody can prove His non-existence.

We can prove that the bible is nonsense and hence your beliefs are nonsense.

kelly1 wrote:

God is not subject to scientific observation.

In the scientific world (i.e the real world) this means there is nothing there.

kelly1 wrote:

God will only "reveal" Himself when we take the first step towards Him.

I thought he revealed himself when he sent down Jesus? Where has your god been since?

kelly1

Gegerty wrote:

We can prove that the bible is nonsense and hence your beliefs are nonsense.


In the scientific world (i.e the real world) this means there is nothing there.


I thought he revealed himself when he sent down Jesus? Where has your god been since?

This kind of arrogance doesn't deserve a reply frankly.

Gegerty

kelly1 wrote:

The atheist may believe he is humble but if He denies His creator he places himself on the top of the pile. He says I don't need God. He trusts science/man will (eventually) provide all the answers. That to me is arrogance. Humans will never find the answers to life's problems if they trust in themselves alone. I think you need only look at the daily news to see this.

Regards,
Noel.

With all due respect (to you, not your god) the god you talk about seems to have a certain evil streak to him. He will only pick those people who adore and worship him to come into his kingdom. This of course all started when the churches started charging people to get into heaven. How come you don't have to pay anymore? Or do you? Will only those with money be allowed into Gods kingdom?

Arrogance, btw, is to assume that you have it all figured out, thats religion not science. And the only thing apparent in the daily news is the pain and suffering and war and division which faith and religion cause. Faith will not cure cancer or aids or stop global warming.

Is their any place for science in your world? Should it be abolished completely or only the bits and pieces you don't like?

Dades

Gegerty wrote:

We can prove that the bible is nonsense and hence your beliefs are nonsense.

Unless you have a time-machine™, I doubt that.

And let's try to maintain a civil tone here, please.

aidan24326

kelly1 wrote:

God doesn't actually need us or our worship. He is totally self-sufficent but He created us to share in His happiness. God *deserves* our adoration because He created us and is so good to us. Often we can't see this but I believe God always does what's best for us.

Sorry Noel but that's a big load of crap. So good to us? Does what's best for us? Really? Tell that to the child in Malawi who's about to die from malnutrition, tell it to the stillborn baby whose funeral I attended a while back, god didn't give him much of a chance, tell it to the young person who's right now dying in agony and wondering why their god has forsaken them and why all the prayers have been met with stonewall silence from this god of endless love.

I tell you one thing, if there is a god he's uncaring and uninterested at the very best so surely not worthy of our adoration. A god deserving of worship would not have created a world full of war and famine and pain and suffering and millions of people killing each other in his name. So wake up will you. Believe in a god creator if you like but don't be kidding yourself that we're all his little pet lambs.

Heaven's not about entertainment. It's about love. It is God's plan that we spend an eternity united with Him in a state of pure joy that's ever new and never stale or boring. How could God be boring???

Think about what eternity means though. Forever and ever and ever with no escape. Ever. Infinity cannot be 'ever new'. It's not possible. Do you actually stop to think about what you're saying at all? Tell me how an infinite existence could never be boring? And God? Well if the bible is anything to go by we can say that he's not boring anyway, whether he's actually very nice is another matter.

kelly1

aidan24326 wrote:

Sorry Noel but that's a big load of crap. So good to us? Does what's best for us? Really? Tell that to the child in Malawi who's about to die from malnutrition, tell it to the stillborn baby whose funeral I attended a while back, god didn't give him much of a chance, tell it to the young person who's right now dying in agony and wondering why their god has forsaken them and why all the prayers have been met with stonewall silence from this god of endless love.

I tell you one thing, if there is a god he's uncaring and uninterested at the very best so surely not worthy of our adoration. A god deserving of worship would not have created a world full of war and famine and pain and suffering and millions of people killing each other in his name. So wake up will you. Believe in a god creator if you like but don't be kidding yourself that we're all his little pet lambs.

What makes you think God is responsible for the problems WE create?? Why do some people find the concept of free will so hard to grasp?

It a common pattern I've noticed among atheists in that they often see God as tryannical, vengeful, uncaring etc. I see the complete opposite.

aidan24326 wrote:

Think about what eternity means though. Forever and ever and ever with no escape. Ever. Infinity cannot be 'ever new'. It's not possible. Do you actually stop to think about what you're saying at all? Tell me how an infinite existence could never be boring? And God? Well if the bible is anything to go by we can say that he's not boring anyway, whether he's actually very nice is another matter.

You're severely limiting your concept of God. He's NOT human!!!

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record now

The Mad Hatter

kelly1 wrote:

What makes you think God is responsible for the problems WE create?? Why do some people find the concept of free will so hard to grasp?

Well, he created us. Yes, free will, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have made us differently.

It a common pattern I've noticed among atheists in that they often see God as tryannical, vengeful, uncaring etc. I see the complete opposite.

Well, the old testament is pretty compelling evidence in atheists' favour...

You're severely limiting your concept of God. He's NOT human!!!

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record now

In fairness, I think your view of eternity is rather limited as well.

To quote from Good Omens (as I've been doing so often lately)

Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman wrote:
<Crowley (a demon) and Aziraphale (an angel) are getting very drunk, as the end of the world is coming>

'Just you think about it,' said Crowley relentlessly. 'You know what eternity is? You know what eternity is? I mean, d'you know what eternity is? There's this big mountain, see, a mile high, at the end of the universe, and once every thousand years there's this little bird-'
'What little bird?' said Aziraphale suspiciously.
'This little bird I'm talking about. And every thousand years-'
'The same bird every thousand years?'
Crowley hesitated. 'Yeah,' he said.
'Bloody ancient bird, then.'
OK. And every thousand years this bird flies-'
'-limps-'
'-flies all the way to the mountain and sharpens its beak-'
'Hold on. You can't do that. Between here and the end of the universe there's loads of-' The angel waved a hand expansively, if a little unsteadily. 'Loads of buggerall, dear boy.'
'But it gets there anyway,' Crowley perservered.
'How?'
'It doesn't matter!'
'It could use a space ship,' said the angel.
Crowley subsided a bit. 'Yeah,' he said. 'If you like. Anyway, this bird-'
'Only it is the end of the universe we're talking about,' said Aziraphale. 'So it'd have to be one of those space ships where your descendants are the ones who get out at the other end. You have to tell your descendants, you say, "When you get to the mountain, you've got to-"' He hesitated. 'What have they got to do?'
'Sharpen its beak on the mountain,' said Crowley. 'And then it flies back-'
'-in the space ship-'
'And after a thousand years it goes and does it all again,' said Crowley quickly.
There was a moment of drunken silence.
'Seems a lot of effort just to sharpen a beak,' musied Aziraphale.
'Listen,' said Crowley urgently, 'the point is that when the bird has worn the mountain down to nothing, right, then-'
Aziraphale opened his mouth. Crowley just knew he was going to make some point about the relative hardness of birds' beaks and granite mountains, and plunged on quickly.
'-then you still won't have finished watching The Sound of Music.'
Aziraphale froze.
'And you'll enjoy it,' Crowley said relentlessly. 'You really will.'




* * *


Sorry, yes, I know I should take this more seriously, but I think it's a great extract/book, and I have work to avoid.

Son Goku

kelly1 wrote:

What makes you think God is responsible for the problems WE create??

All though I understand what you are trying to say, how is still birth a problem we create?

Scofflaw

I must admit, I don't have any difficulty with the idea of eternal bliss. The mistake is thinking that you will have any awareness of time passing, which, if you think of any occasion on which you've been absolutely blissful, you don't.

Hell, on the other hand, presumably includes a full realisation of time passing, with all of eternity yet to pass.

cordially,
Scofflaw

aidan24326

kelly1 wrote:

What makes you think God is responsible for the problems WE create?? Why do some people find the concept of free will so hard to grasp?

I don't find the concept of free will hard to grasp at all that's not what this is about. The problem is that if god created us and everything in the world then why didn't he create a perfect blissful world without all the suffering and cruelty? Should have been an easy enough task for an almighty god wouldn't you say? After all your religion assures us that god is all-powerful AND completely loving and benevolent. A god of absolute love for us would end the suffering right now, wouldn't he? Or more to the point why create beings with the capacity for such cruelty at all? You can talk about free will all you like but if god created us then it's god's fault and he/she/it/them has to take the blame. See I don't think this god of yours put us here at all which is why I DO believe in free will and why I do believe that human actions are of our own doing. By your rationale it's all god's fault, every bloody bit of it.

It a common pattern I've noticed among atheists in that they often see God as tryannical, vengeful, uncaring etc. I see the complete opposite.

Well the god of the bible is certainly all of those things and worse but I'll be fair and asume that you don't take all of that stuff literally. A god who created the universe is likely to be sophisticated enough that words like vengeful, which describe human actions, are not likely to apply to such an entity. So no I don't think a god would be very likely to be any of those things. Uncaring maybe, insofar as taking no interest in the trivialities of whether Farmer Brown's crops get that rainshower he's been praying for.

You're severely limiting your concept of God. He's NOT human!!!

No in actual fact it's religion that severly limits the concept of god, so you're being very hypocritical here!! It's religion that has portrayed god as some sad egomaniac that needs to be worshipped. It's hardly likely that an entity with such extraordinary abilities would need it's ego massaged by us little ants, but that's what your religion would have us believe.

I'm prepared to accept the possibility that the universe may have had some sort of 'designer' or creative influence. Something beyond our current level of understanding. We can't rule out the possibility with certainty, but that type of a hypothetical 'god' bears little resemblance to the one that listens to our pathetic little prayers and sends homosexuals to hell. So who really has the backward concept of what a god might be?

Zillah

kelly1 wrote:

Doesn't that make you an automaton/puppet?

Yes. You are too whether you like it or not.

So if you murder someone, you blame your genes/environment??

Yes, of course. My conscience and compassion for others is also shaped by my genes and environment, luckily enough.