Ward Union...

fits

Hmm... I've never seen them in action but it sounds like it'll be tough to keep this one going. Not sure I can justify it in my mind either.
They won the hunt chase at the horse show this year.

Gormley unlikely to grant stag hunt licence
Tuesday, 4 September 2007 10:42
The Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, is expected to decide today not to grant a licence to the Ward Union Hunt, Ireland's only stag hunt, based in Co Meath.

A Department official said that legal opinion has yet to be secured, but he believed the Minister could make some announcement on the matter this afternoon.

The hunt is highly controversial given that the last Ward Union Hunt resulted in a stag being chased into a primary school yard at Kildalkey, Co Meath, by a pack of chasing dogs, distressing many parents and children.

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The school bus was unable to park close to the school due to the hunt and many children ended up running past the dogs to get to the vehicle.

It is expected that if Minister Gormley does refuse a licence, which would amount to a de facto ban, the Ward Union Hunt would take the matter to the High Court.

The Ward Union Hunt described the Kildalkey incident as 'very unfortunate', but said that, despite claims from many parents, the stag was not hurt.

fits

sorry, I meant to put that in the 'sports forum'... d'oh
I'll see if I can get it moved...

Sparks

Done and done...

BryanL

The school bus was unable to park close to the school due to the hunt and many children ended up running past the dogs to get to the vehicle.



thats my favorite the little fat/obese kids had to walk to the bus,shocking:eek: :eek:

the winner of last years grand national " silver birch" also hunted with them last season.the stags are examined before and after every hunts by independent vets.

fits

BryanL wrote:

The school bus was unable to park close to the school due to the hunt and many children ended up running past the dogs to get to the vehicle.



thats my favorite the little fat/obese kids had to walk to the bus,shocking:eek: :eek:

Well its certainly a less sensational article than the one you posted in your thread.

Amz

I moved it to shooting. It shouldn't be here.

fits

It shouldnt be in 'shooting' either...

fits

jeez louise

I cannot understand why they wont give us an equestrian forum...

BryanL

sports you'd to be hunting,shooting and fishing
everything else were games and pastimes

Sparks

Amz wrote:

I moved it to shooting. It shouldn't be here.

Well it's got nothing to do with shooting either!

Amz

Fine, they don't shoot the stag, but they hunt it, hence the name hunting, it's more suited to a forum where hunting is regularly discussed so here you are.

Amz

Fine, move it to outdoor pursuits, because it's not a sport. I will delete it if I find it in Sports.

fits

I've posted in feedback.

fits

Fine, move it to outdoor pursuits, because it's not a sport. I will delete it if I find it in Sports.

It is an equestrian pursuit. You told me yourself to post equestrian topics in 'sports'
You're letting your own personal opinions cloud your moderating imo...

Amz

Oh you're exactly right.

E. Fudd

The forum is entitled "shooting" not "hunting, shootong and general killing of all things fluffy"

We get enough flak for what we do already, we don't need to take it for something that, in my mind, few of us do, and something that is never discussed here.

You wouldn't catch us running through a schoolyard with guns, but because it was "hunting" it's obviously something to do with us in your minds!

And just to point out; that article is totally exagerated because:

A) I remember lsitening to Gerry Ryan talking about it when it happened, and everyone agreed that the stag was not injured. The story at that time was that it basically ran into the schoolyard, was chased by the hounds, and then ran back out.

In a freak coincidence, one of the huntsman's grandchildren was attending that school at the time, and I was told by the Grandchild's father that the children thought it was great fun altogether! They still didn't tell the child that one of the men on horse back was his grandfather, but I think this was more to protect the child from being being, as such, picked out by teachers / other kids.


Anyway, my view is that this topic doesn't belong in here. Talk about tarring everyone with the same brush!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

fits

Actually it appears to be titled 'outdoor pursuits'

Lets play 'spot the ward union thread'

cavedave

Hmm... I've never seen them in action but it sounds like it'll be tough to keep this one going. Not sure I can justify it in my mind either.
They won the hunt chase at the horse show this year.

Ok apart from the "no your forum should take it" arguments. What does a stag hunt mean to people who enjoy outdoor (in touch with nature etc) type activities? Why should a person support/reject a stag hunt?

Sparks

Sorry Amz, but this forum's not for hunting in the sense of hunting with hounds. Fits is right, it should be in a horsey forum.

fits

cavedave wrote:

Ok apart from the "no your forum should take it" arguments. What does a stag hunt mean to people who enjoy outdoor (in touch with nature etc) type activities? Why should a person support/reject a stag hunt?

Thats exactly what I wanted to find out... as a person who is a little involved in dog welfare and rescue, a horse lover, a nature lover and a person who used to foxhunt (and will again).

No discussions on whether I can be one and the other please... Its just the way I am.

Evil Phil

FFS.

Fits, it you want to discuss the hunt you may do so in outdoor pursuits forum seeing as we don't yet have an equestrian forum and I can't think of anywhere else this can go. Discussion of moderating, forums or lack there off belongs in Feedback as far as I'm concerned.

I'll point out this was in the Outdoor Pursuits forum at the time of my posting.

togster

The ward union is a carted stag hunt. The dtag is transported from an enclosure owned by the hunt which houses a population of domestic deer. The stag is relaeased and hunted on horse-back untill it is captured. The stag is transported back to the enclosure.

I agree with fits on this. Its hard to justify the reasons for this. Its not for population control and the stag is terrorised. So IMO ban it. It gives all hunts a bad name.

By the way AMZ this does belong in the sports forum as YOU instructed us to post equestrian related topics there. ANd wheteher i like it or you like it thats what it is. Next it will be moved to beer guts and receeding hair:rolleyes:

Amz

Ok, I've moved it back.

I'm not happy with thses kinds of thread as I feel that the real issues are generally not related to equestrian issue and are more to do with animal rights vs the rights of people to participate in such activities etc.

Amz

togster wrote:

By the way AMZ this does belong in the sports forum as YOU instructed us to post equestrian related topics there. ANd wheteher i like it or you like it thats what it is. Next it will be moved to beer guts and receeding hair:rolleyes:

togster, I will ban you if you carry on like this. Your attitude is not welcome and given your behaviour on other forums I'm not going to tolerate it.

cavedave

From an outdoor pursuits point of view the article brings up the issue of impinging on local communities. Meath has a lot more people now so if you roam through it with dogs you might run into a few.

What are the responsibilities/expectations on a population to get in the way of something that has been going on for years? So should kids have to be kept away by there parents from the stag hunt (rather then the stag hunt kept away from now populated areas)?
Similar issues exist with quarries reopening so old routes being destroyed or Doolin River cave being knee deep in sewage as the town that has sprung up has no treatment system. So should outdoor pursuits people just get out of the way of progress?

togster

Amz wrote:

togster, I will ban you if you carry on like this. Your attitude is not welcome and given your behaviour on other forums I'm not going to tolerate it.

The comments were made before the thread was moved. I do apologise for antagonising you. I got quiet hot under the collar and for that i am sorry.

fits

cavedave wrote:

From an outdoor pursuits point of view the article brings up the issue of impinging on local communities. Meath has a lot more people now so if you roam through it with dogs you might run into a few.

The bray hunt formerly a harriers, switched to being a drag hunt which has a predetermined track a number of years ago for that very reason I believe.
Meath is indeed very densely populated, but I'm sure there are a few large landowners who'd cooperate with the ward union. (same for the Brays, you'd have difficulty convincing small farmers to allow a drag across their land when there is no perceived benefit.)

E. Fudd

fits wrote:

(same for the Brays, you'd have difficulty convincing small farmers to allow a drag across their land when there is no perceived benefit.)

I have to disagree with this. I don't believe that farmers currently see any benefit in fox / deer hunting by hound on their land.

The only deer hunt (ward union) in the country is a deer that is released from the back of a trailer, therefore, it's not as if it's of any benefit to the farmer to let them hunt it accross his/her land.

Foxhunting results in very little actual killing of foxes, and t.b.h., in this day and age, foxes are of little concern to farmers. If farmers wanted foxes culling, they'd call someone in to shoot them.

The only benefit farmers may get is a turkey/ham/bottle of wine from the hunt at Christmas as a thanyou for allowing them to hunt their land.

fits

Thats why I used the word 'perceived'.
I'm from a farm originally and the local hunt crosses our land. They stick to our poorest land (bog) and dont cross our good fields or go near our stock.
I've hunted with a drag, and it was hell for leather across huge farms/estates, (normally on stubble) or through woodland. Access to build jumps etc is also an issue.
I dont know if there is any benefit to farmers then, outside of providing a market for the odd foal they might breed (every farmer has a mare where I'm from). Also I've heard of hunts being called out to dispose of 'problem foxes' but its not a service we've ever availed of.
Relationships between farmers and hunts also seem to vary a lot from place to place. No issue where I'm from, but I know farmers from neighbouring areas who would have poor regard for them.

Zaph

togster wrote:

Next it will be moved to beer guts and receeding hair:rolleyes:

We don't want it either, not because of any objections to hunting, moral or otherwise, but rather because we're a bit uncomfortable with the whole outdoor activity thing.

togster

pampers wrote:

I have to disagree with this. I don't believe that farmers currently see any benefit in fox / deer hunting by hound on their land.

The only deer hunt (ward union) in the country is a deer that is released from the back of a trailer, therefore, it's not as if it's of any benefit to the farmer to let them hunt it accross his/her land.

Foxhunting results in very little actual killing of foxes, and t.b.h., in this day and age, foxes are of little concern to farmers. If farmers wanted foxes culling, they'd call someone in to shoot them.

The only benefit farmers may get is a turkey/ham/bottle of wine from the hunt at Christmas as a thanyou for allowing them to hunt their land.

Agree with most said above. I dont think all hunts are effective in fox disposal. Some farmers want them there for vermin control, others for the social side of things and others really dont want you there. Getting chased by an angry farmer with a shotgun is not enjoyable.!!!

fits

John Gormley and Gavin Duffy will be on 'the last word' on Today FM at 5.30 discussing this issue.
I'm definitely tuning in.

john jo

Personally I think all types of hunts should be banned. We are supposed to be a modern Irish state with our own culture and heritage so why should we find it acceptable to allow a sport which was the chosen sport of those that stole land of the native Irish in the first place. Why should we allow an English custom to be played here when its barely allowed it in their own country?

fits

john jo wrote:

Personally I think all types of hunts should be banned. We are supposed to be a modern Irish state with our own culture and heritage so why should we find it acceptable to allow a sport which was the chosen sport of those that stole land of the native Irish in the first place. Why should we allow an English custom to be played here when its barely allowed it in their own country?

Have you any objection to it other than perceiving it to be an 'English sport'. If you objected on grounds of welfare, then I'd think that would be fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to object principally because its an 'English sport' is something I find strange. After all lots of 'English sports' are played here... or do you think they should ban cricket for example too?

Bendihorse

Sorry johnjo but, out of all the arguments you could have about hunting, taking both pro and anti opinions into account, thats a pitiful one.

john jo

Don’t get me wrong I have plenty of English friends and im not into this hole 'brits out' thug thing. I believe Ireland owes a lot off its recent wealth and success to England and English investment after all they are the biggest importer of Irish good so its not entirely a race issue although i be one to look and find fault with the class hierarchy. this kind of hunting is not the sport off the common man and i seriously doubt the majority of the country would be in favour of such sports. Would it be acceptable if everyday people went around with hurleys and clubbed stray dogs? So why should should we find it hunting acceptable?

togster

Your argument is seriously flawed. Your last post said we shouldn't hunt because the "brits" stole our land and in your recent post you say thats not the issue. What is the issue? the basis of your argument? This thread is about a particular type of hunt. It is a staged hunt unlike the other forms of hunting i.e fox or hare hunting. I personally do not agree with this carted hunting. But i do agree with fox hunting which has been debated to death IMO. Personally i think the ward unions give othe forms of more orthodox hunting a bad name. We are not all like them.:rolleyes:

BryanL

John jo,
i know what your saying,but foxhunting is really a French sport.foxhunting was english historicaly only because they were the ones that we well off enough to be able to enjoy it.
i think it's good that we have taken control of our own country and can enjoy all the things that were once the preserve of the rich(english) like yachting,hunting etc.
the main media focus is on foxhunting and red coats but really it's the smallest part of Irish hunting,hunting with harriers on foot is the most popular of these sports in Ireland and is very Irish.
you might be interested to know that the first thing Daniel O'Connell did when he got out of prison(in his 70's) he went back to Kerry and got out on the hills hunting with his foot beagles.
the oldest al fresco painting in Ireland is in a monastery in Clare Ireland,it depicts a stag hunting scene with sighthounds and comes from the 14th century, a bit before stongbow et al!
up until the 16th century(before the brits) Ireland was famed for it's export of hunting hounds,hounds and hunting dogs were an important part of the Brehon laws.
the whole hunting is English and not Irish is very much an anti spin. yes during the war of independence the IRA did ban foxhunting but of course not coursing!surely all those years of struggle were so we'd have the freedom to enjoy our lives as we see fit?
mise le meas,Bryan

Bendihorse

Very well informed post there bryan, lost of information in there thats new to me too

fits

BryanL wrote:

the oldest al fresco painting in Ireland is in a monastery in Clare Ireland,it depicts a stag hunting scene with sighthounds and comes from the 14th century,

What kind of sighthound?

The whole 'hunting being the preserve of the priveleged' is all bo**ocks anyway. Only people who've never seen a hunt in their lives would think it. I suppose people in jackets on horseback look posh, but only because thats how posh people are portrayed traditionally, not because theres any truth in it.

I also love the whole perception that if you have horses, you've an easy life. Feeding, exercising and looking after horses over the winter is far from easy, and neither could just anyone follow a hunt on horseback. A lot of skill and courage is required.

Dodge

fits wrote:

I also love the whole perception that if you have horses, you've an easy life. Feeding, exercising and looking after horses over the winter is far from easy

Easier than working 2/3 jobs to keep a faimly fed though. Look at it witha persepective man...

BTW if there was a current affairs forum, I'd place this thread in there. Seems all the discussion is on the legality/morality of it rather than discussing the event itself.

fits

Dodge wrote:

Easier than working 2/3 jobs to keep a faimly fed though. Look at it witha persepective man...

:rolleyes: I meant in addition to a job... or do you think we all live lives of leisure....:rolleyes:

Dodge

fits wrote:

:rolleyes: I meant in addition to a job... or do you think we all live lives of leisure....:rolleyes:

Are you comparing doing something you love with working an extra job to help pay for basic neccesities? :eek:

Playing football, rugby, or jogging every day can be hard work but its a far nicer proposition than working an extra job.

fits

I never compared anything with having to work an extra job to fund a family...
you did that.
I just said that keeping horses isnt the walk in the park like some people perceive it to be.
I think we're on completely different wavelengths tbh.

Dodge

fits wrote:

I never compared anything with having to work an extra job to fund a family...

fits wrote:

I also love the whole perception that if you have horses, you've an easy life.

The reality is that if you can afford to keep horses, in the grand scheme of things you DO have an easy life. By posting that it is hard work feeding and cleaning the horses, you've shown you've completely missed the point of those who, rightly, see Horsey pursuits as a middle to upper class thing.

I have no problem with anybody who keeps, breeds or rides horses and I hope they get the enjoyment they seek from their hobby/sport but don't try and make out its a pursuit that anybody can do. Its not.

fits

Dodge wrote:

The reality is that if you can afford to keep horses, in the grand scheme of things you DO have an easy life.

In your opinion... not a fact.. And you obviously dont know too many people involved in horses, or much about the costs either. If you get an average horse, and keep it on diy livery, most people could afford that if they wanted to... they just wouldnt have much time for anything else and they probably couldnt be bothered with the commitment either.

I am a postgraduate student, before my annual stipend (minimum wage) ran out, I used to keep my horse on diy livery and worked for the yard owners in order to reduce the costs of keeping my own there. I sacrificed my social life and any luxuries most girls in their twenties take for granted in order to fund my passion. So dont try and tell me I'm priveleged and have an easy life when you obviously know nothing about it. I worked hard to keep my interest... it was my choice....

If you want to give out about the hardships of raising children go to the 'parenting' forum. Its not relevant here, or comparable.

BryanL

you can ride a horse for 16 euro,a sister of mine is out of work at the minute but still likes to ride a horse.she spends more on cigarettes the wasteful cow
Bryan

Dodge

fits wrote:

I sacrificed my social life and any luxuries most girls in their twenties take for granted in order to fund my passion.

*sigh* you still don't get it, do you? As you quite rightly pointed out, you chose to give up luxuries. Anybody that chooses to give up luxuries or can afford to fund their passion, still has an easy life in the grand scheme of things. Of course people from all backgrounds have problems, and I'm not dismissing their rights to enjoy their hobby/passion. I'm not a class warrior either, and I consider myself to have a fairly easy life (overall), so please don't take it personally.

BryanL, I was talking more about people riding their own horses, but good news that a horse ride is that cheap

fits

Dodge wrote:

*sigh* you still don't get it, do you? As you quite rightly pointed out, you chose to give up luxuries. Anybody that chooses to give up luxuries or can afford to fund their passion, still has an easy life in the grand scheme of things. Of course people from all backgrounds have problems, and I'm not dismissing their rights to enjoy their hobby/passion. I'm not a class warrior either, and I consider myself to have a fairly easy life (overall), so please don't take it personally.

BryanL, I was talking more about people riding their own horses, but good news that a horse ride is that cheap

Well most people in Ireland have a relatively easy life... But that isnt necessarily 'more true' for people interested in horses. And yes, some come from 'money no object' situations, but most dont. I know of a couple who are choosing not to have children as they would have to sell their horses (one of the couple is disabled).

To give you an idea of the costs ...
Horse price range anything from free to €€€. You could pick up a lovely ex racehorse for a few hundred euro if one knew how to retrain it and were willing to put in the time.
Livery: DIY- from 30 euro/week up to 160 euro for full livery near Dublin.
Saddle: About 300 euro for a decent second hand saddle
Farrier 60 euro every 6 weeks.
Dentist 50 euro once a year
Feed Depends on the horse. I have a 'good doer' i.e a native pony/cob type who doesnt need much feeding and can pretty much live on fresh air. Hay is about 20 euro a round bale depending on the year and a round bale lasts for weeks.

They're the only things you really need that cost anything (give or take a few). You can accessorize to your hearts content, like in every other field. If you have money, theres plenty to spend it on... but if you dont have very much, its easy to enjoy your hobby and get by on just the basics. BTW joining a hunt isnt very dear either.. its a good bit cheaper than your average golf club membership.

Dodge

fits wrote:

Well most people in Ireland have a relatively easy life...

I'd agree

They're the only things you really need that cost anything (give or take a few).

TBH It still is a fair bit of money. I understand your point that its not very expensive, and like you said if its a passion of yours and you get so much enjoyment out of it, it'd be great value for money.

doctor evil

Dodge do you think those kids in Ballymum/Finglas etc who have ponies on their estate live an easy life?.