Bennis "Kilkenny live on the edge"

Amazotheamazing

Bennis: Cats ‘on the edge’

By Diarmuid O’Flynn
LIMERICK manager Richie Bennis yesterday claimed All-Ireland champions Kilkenny are a team “living on the edge” in terms of discipline.


Stressing his comments were not sour grapes after Sunday’s final defeat, Bennis said that Brian Cody’s side are ‘a borderline team’ in terms of physicality and revealed two of his players received nasty injuries in off the ball incidents.

Bennis’s views to the Irish Examiner were delivered amid a war of words between Cody and Galway boss Ger Loughnane, who was highly critical of the Kilkenny style of play on the eve of the decider.


Said Bennis of Sunday’s All-Ireland final loss: “We weren’t surprised by the intensity of Kilkenny in the first 10 minutes. We had prepared the lads for that. We know the road Kilkenny have taken for the past two or three years. They’re a borderline team, and I stress that – a borderline team. I admire them for that, I aspire to that.

“I would hope to get Limerick hurling to that level of intensity and physicality. But definitely, Kilkenny are living on the edge.

He continued: “Stephen Lucey got six stitches in his face from a jab with the handle of the hurley early on in the game and young Seamus Hickey has bruised ribs from another jab of a hurley. Little things like that went unseen and unpunished by the referee.

“While all that was going on then, Brian Geary got a yellow card, for what? A belt of a shoulder? And that affected his play afterwards, he couldn’t be as aggressive. Mark Foley had a free awarded against him for pulling on the ball on the ground for the first Kilkenny point which was a harsh decision.

“But then Kilkenny also seem to get the benefit of the doubt from the referee. And this is not sour grapes — Kilkenny were by far the better team in Croke Park, there is no doubt whatever about that.”

Bennis believes that teams must copy Kilkenny — if they are to beat them.

“You must go down the road they’re on, develop their tactics, meet like with like, and that’s the only way you’ll beat them.

“They have the talent, always have, but they also have that edge, they live right on that edge and have it perfected. They’re a thoroughly professional outfit, and I admire Brian Cody for that.

“He was extremely gracious in our dressing-room afterwards, a thorough gentleman, and I was very well received in theirs as well, and that’s the way it should be.

“I’ll make one statement now though: when we meet Kilkenny again, with the help of God, it will be a different Limerick team.”

While Bennis had nothing but praise for Cody and his team, he was disappointed with much of the coverage of his own team’s efforts.

Trailing by nine points after 10 minutes, he admitted his team was caught napping, almost literally, still in awe of the fantastic reception they had received from their massed supporters.

Thereafter, however, he felt they had coped well.

“Who are these people to castigate Limerick?” he asked. “We outscored Kilkenny for the last 60 minutes of the All-Ireland final by two points, how can we not have the hurlers?

“All these experts will say this morning, they were right, but it’s easy to be right when you go for the favourites. Kilkenny had a tactic and because they got that great start, it worked for them, they were able to stay with it for the whole game.

“It was like us against Waterford, we got the good start, and we were able to stick to our tactics then. When you go behind as badly as we did, so early on, you have to change the whole situation, you’re the one under pressure. But we went on to outscore them then for the last 60 minutes, by two points, missed several scoreable chances, but that’s no consolation now. If Shaughs hadn’t lost his hurley at a critical time in the second half, he’s definitely have got a goal, and a goal at that stage would really have put us back in it. There’s more in this team, don’t you worry about that.

He added: There’s no talk of retirements, and why should there be? Mark Foley is the oldest on the team, why should he retire? Because he’s in his 30’s? That shouldn’t enter the equation. He’s a thorough sportsman, he’s still a brilliant hurler, was outstanding Sunday – why should he even think of retiring.

“Ollie Moran is the same. He is a man who was often castigated at the start of the year, as he tried to settle into centre-forward. Now, he should be guaranteed an All-Star. We already have a good panel, we have a lot of lads who got a taste of the action Sunday, and we’ll surely pick up a few more players for next year.

;‘When I analyse this today, the summary is that we had a good year without achieving anything of note, no trophies, but we brought Limerick hurling forward, which was the primary aim at the beginning of the year.

‘‘We’ll give it another 12 months now, and hopefully we’ll bring them that one step further.”

Amazotheamazing

For what it's worth I agree, Loughnane would be better off instilling some physicality in Galway rather than criticising it in Kilkenny. Only one Kilkenny player crossed the line into unacceptable play (imo), Brennan. He should have been carded for hooking Hickey's ankle, it was a move designed to injury Hickey and had nothing to do with contesting the ball.

premierstone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Bennis:

“But then Kilkenny also seem to get the benefit of the doubt from the referee. And this is not sour grapes — Kilkenny were by far the better team in Croke Park, there is no doubt whatever about that.”

Seriously was this lad actually watchin the same match as the rest of us the referee gave Limerick absolutely everything he was only short of actually toggin out for them (probably would have been better than begley;) ) and then he has the cheek to claim that KK are livin on the edge does he remember he's own corner back trying to break Eoin Kelly's arm twice in the space of 5 mins

popebenny16

Amazotheamazing wrote:

For what it's worth I agree, Loughnane would be better off instilling some physicality in Galway rather than criticising it in Kilkenny. Only one Kilkenny player crossed the line into unacceptable play (imo), Brennan. He should have been carded for hooking Hickey's ankle, it was a move designed to injury Hickey and had nothing to do with contesting the ball.

It was also Brennan that stuck the handle of the hurl into Lucy's face. He then scored a goal. Matches can swing on these things.

MisterAnarchy

I thought Loughnanes comments were spot on.
He said what most people think but are afraid to say.
After Kilkenny lost 2 All Irelands in a row to Cork,Cody changed Kilkenny's style of play to a cruder harder and dirty style.
Kilkenny are definitely the most cynical and dirty team in the country.
They are very sly and good at cheating but the fact remains that they are a dishonest team.
Cody has coached them well to bend the rules .
Obstruction,grabbing an opponents hurley,holding a hurley up at neck height to block an opponent,sticking a hurley between an opponents legs,pushing,unfair shouldering,fingers in the eyes,knees in the back .
Kilkenny are masters of this form of fouling and quite frankly the GAA should do something about it.
I have no problem with a high intensity ,physical game but it must be clean and fair.

Amazotheamazing

premierstone wrote:

Seriously was this lad actually watchin the same match as the rest of us the referee gave Limerick absolutely everything he was only short of actually toggin out for them (probably would have been better than begley;) ) and then he has the cheek to claim that KK are livin on the edge does he remember he's own corner back trying to break Eoin Kelly's arm twice in the space of 5 mins

Eh, Reale was sent off, Brennan wasn't even carded.

Bennis' point was that other teams need to get smarter.

Erin Go Brath

A lot of the great teams are 'borderline cheats'. I compare Kilkenny to the All-blacks in rugby in that regard. A great team but probably the dirtiest in the game.

Bennis is right about giving as good as you get in that regard. If teams don't toughen up against them they won't beat them. The ref can only see so much. If theres sneaky, underhand digs, pulls, chops etc he's probably going to miss a fair percentage. Kilkenny are the masters at putting off/intimidating their opponents, and getting away with it.

The other teams need to copy and learn from this.

blackbelt

This is how teams win,the old fashioned way and that boils down to who is tougher and more physical and sometimes this wins out over clean football or hurling.We saw Meath in the 90s and Tyrone and Armagh in 02,03 and 05 win in this fashion and there is not much a team can do except adopt the same tactics and fight fire with fire.

KK will win at all costs,if Limerick,Galway,Tipp or Waterford want to start winning the Liam McCarthy cup,they should look at KK style of play and see how they can at least match them.To be fair to Cody and KK,all I see from Loughnane is a bitter man who can't stand Kilkenny or any other team do well unless it is against KK or Cork.It is like Mourinho and his war of words.Apart from the injuries sustained on the Limerick team,I think KK were too strong anyway.Whats done is done and KK won the Liam McCarthy Cup.Limerick have done their fans proud and were a joy to watch.Certainly without winning Munster,they were the team of the championship and I'm sure they will come back in a few years.

Depending on how the draw works out next year,I think Waterford will be the team to take the competition by storm.Fixtures were not kind to them either but by far they have the players to put it up to KK.

AndyP

Nearly every successful team has relied on playing 'hard' throughout the different generations in both hurling and football. In football, Kerry,Dublin, Meath and the northern teams have always had tough guys who can do a job. If you look at some teams who were less physical such as Galway and Kildare, maybe that explains the reason they have won less. In saying that, there is a big difference between being tough and crossing into dirty territory (reminds me of Boylans comments after the Rules series last year when he slated the Aussies).

jackbhoy

I thought Brennans challenge was red card offence but aside from that most of the tackles were very hard but fair. Don't think Bennis could have any problem with ref as he gave Limerick countless sympathy frees that kept them in the game....

pickarooney

Brennan's jab in Lucey's face was gougerism and not the only example of borderline play from a forward who really doesn't need to resort to that kind of 'tactic'. As for the rest of the match, Limerick gave, or tried to give, as good as they got. Ref did a good job, aside from not punishing Brennan more severely, even if he sided a bit with the underdogs at times.

lukin

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I thought Loughnanes comments were spot on.
He said what most people think but are afraid to say.
After Kilkenny lost 2 All Irelands in a row to Cork,Cody changed Kilkenny's style of play to a cruder harder and dirty style.
Kilkenny are definitely the most cynical and dirty team in the country.
They are very sly and good at cheating but the fact remains that they are a dishonest team.
Cody has coached them well to bend the rules .
Obstruction,grabbing an opponents hurley,holding a hurley up at neck height to block an opponent,sticking a hurley between an opponents legs,pushing,unfair shouldering,fingers in the eyes,knees in the back .
Kilkenny are masters of this form of fouling and quite frankly the GAA should do something about it.
I have no problem with a high intensity ,physical game but it must be clean and fair.

You are right there;remember that photo of a KK player pushing his hurley into Setanta O'Halpin's face as he scored a goal for Cork in the AI final of 2003?

MrJoeSoap

lukin wrote:

You are right there;remember that photo of a KK player pushing his hurley into Setanta O'Halpin's face as he scored a goal for Cork in the AI final of 2003?

Cork are no saints themselves, they certainly give as good as they get. I remember two particular instances from the Waterford game in Thurles this year involving Gardiner and Curran. Every team gives it and every team takes it. I certainly don't think Kilkenny are an overly dirty team. Physical and tough, sure, but not malicious.

JHMEG

I would agree that KK are not normally dirty, and it did surprise me a bit that they were as dirty as they were against Limerick.

I would expect that they watched Reale and co in previous games are were ready to give as good as they got. Which they did.

Amazotheamazing

Hmm, still bitter JHMEG?

Funny how one throw away comment, in the seconds after Limerick's biggest win in a decade has left such a mark on you. I hope the scars heal eventually.

Reale isn't a particularly dirty player, neither is he noticeably clean. Now, which intercounty panel has a guy who glassed someone on it? I'll give you a hint, they're a great team who haven't made an AI final in 40 or so years.

MrJoeSoap

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Funny how one throw away comment, in the seconds after Limerick's biggest win in a decade has left such a mark on you. I hope the scars heal eventually.

It's not 'throwaway' when you're feeling down after being beaten in a semi-final yet again. I'm sure Limerick fans would feel the exact same if the shoe was on the other foot.

sillymoo2007

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I thought Loughnanes comments were spot on.
He said what most people think but are afraid to say.
After Kilkenny lost 2 All Irelands in a row to Cork,Cody changed Kilkenny's style of play to a cruder harder and dirty style.
Kilkenny are definitely the most cynical and dirty team in the country.
They are very sly and good at cheating but the fact remains that they are a dishonest team.
Cody has coached them well to bend the rules .
Obstruction,grabbing an opponents hurley,holding a hurley up at neck height to block an opponent,sticking a hurley between an opponents legs,pushing,unfair shouldering,fingers in the eyes,knees in the back .
Kilkenny are masters of this form of fouling and quite frankly the GAA should do something about it.
I have no problem with a high intensity ,physical game but it must be clean and fair.

Kilkenny are most certainly not one of the dirtiest teams in the country, Hurling is a very physical game and kilkenny knew this game would be exactly that against limerick. Preperation for that would be to give as good as you get and in fairness there was 16 limerick players on sunday. numerous sympathy free's to keep them in the game and give the fans a bit of a day out seems fair to me seeing as it will probably be another 34 years before they win one again. maybe the ref might be fit enough to put on a limerick jersey and play by then.

And as for loughnane he's all abit dog calling the cat hairy hole imo If anybody introduced dirty tactics to hurling surely it was him.

Amazotheamazing

MrJoeSoap wrote:

It's not 'throwaway' when you're feeling down after being beaten in a semi-final yet again. I'm sure Limerick fans would feel the exact same if the shoe was on the other foot.

No we wouldn't, how many posts did you see when a Tipp player knocked Reale out in the 3rd game. We were happy to believe it was a accident, we got over it and we didn't spend the weeks after the Munster final whining about missing our captain and the lack of recovery time before facing Waterford.

Why not focus on what Bennis said a few moments later, about feeling sorry for Waterford and that if they had won he would have liked them to win the final? You can't, becuase it suits you to be bitter at someone else rather than focus on where Waterford went wrong.

Waterford are a classy team, definately the people's favourites, but Jesus, some of their supporters let them down.

JHMEG

@Amazotheamazing, what goes on off the pitch has nothing whatsoever to do with hurling. I presume that was John Mullane you were referring to? I doubt he's the only hurler to have put a foot wrong in his private life and I think it's naive of you to bring it up (weren't the charges dropped against him in the end.. maybe it wasn't all the media hyped it up to be?)

Reale's carry on against Eoin Kelly warranted a ban for life. Reale couldn't beat him with skill, so he decided he'd break his arm? We all know Kelly is a legend in his own lifetime, and a model sportsman. Reale will never be either.

Bennis's later comments about Waterford were clearly because he realised he had dug a hole for himself and was trying to claw back out again. Whatever about his management skills, his PR skills are zero.

I agree with you tho that Waterford did go wrong, and more or less handed the victory to Limerick, and Waterford need to concentrate on that and fix it so that it doesn't happen again.

Erin Go Brath

JHMEG wrote:

Reale's carry on against Eoin Kelly warranted a ban for life. Reale couldn't beat him with skill, so he decided he'd break his arm? We all know Kelly is a legend in his own lifetime, and a model sportsman. Reale will never be either.

Would you ever give it up. :rolleyes: He got send off for a couple of bad challenges. He deserved to get sent off, and he did. Jaysus, a ban for life. :eek: You're a bit of a drama queen aren't you!

JHMEG wrote:

Bennis's later comments about Waterford were clearly because he realised he had dug a hole for himself and was trying to claw back out again. Whatever about his management skills, his PR skills are zero.

You're slagging of Bennis is becoming a bit tiresome. Bennis is one of the characters of the game. He shoots his mouth sometimes, but imo he's more entertaining to listen to than most of the managers put together.

JHMEG

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Would you ever give it up. :rolleyes: He got send off for a couple of bad challenges.

Cop on. Eoin Kelly didn't see it that way and neither did the Sunday Game panelists when they replayed Reale's knackerish behaviour.

Erin Go Brath wrote:

You're slagging of Bennis is becoming a bit tiresome. Bennis is one of the characters of the game. He shoots his mouth sometimes, but imo he's more entertaining to listen to than most of the managers put together.

Yeah most people are laughing at him alright..for the clown that he is!

cruiserweight

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Hmm, still bitter JHMEG?

Funny how one throw away comment, in the seconds after Limerick's biggest win in a decade has left such a mark on you. I hope the scars heal eventually.

Reale isn't a particularly dirty player, neither is he noticeably clean. Now, which intercounty panel has a guy who glassed someone on it? I'll give you a hint, they're a great team who haven't made an AI final in 40 or so years.

I know who are talking about. But I know of players from other teams who have done the same. Plus this has nothing really to do with the thread in question

Erin Go Brath

JHMEG wrote:

Cop on. Eoin Kelly didn't see it that way and neither did the Sunday Game panelists when they replayed Reale's knackerish behaviour.


Yeah most people are laughing at him alright..for the clown that he is!

Think its you that needs to cop on. I'm not defending the chop down by Reale. I'm saying the punishment should fit the crime. Maybe they could bring in a suspension for a few games or something. Banning for life, is a ridiculous idea. From the way you're talking their would be a load of players that would never be allowed to pick up a hurley again. Look at all the players who've chopped down, or struck an opponent with a hurl in the last few years. Thats 15 or 20 players who are never allowed to play again. :rolleyes:

I'm just glad you're not President of the GAA.

BTW: Richie for Pope. He's a legend!

gbh

One thing I noticed about the Kilkenny backs is the little nudge or push in the back they give their man before he jumps for the ball..its always enough to stop him from catching it and always hidden from the ref..

As a traditionalist I prefer hurling to be hard tough but most importantly fair. Loughnane and Bennis are from the old school where you went in hard for 50/50 balls, you didn't complain, you took your punishment and you didn't try to get away with off the ball stuff. So I think there is an element creeping in to modern hurling where you play the percentages game and try to take advantage when the ref is not looking just as there is an element of thuggary creeping into Gaelic football. And its up to managers including Brian Cody to stamp it out if its happening.

MrJoeSoap

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Waterford are a classy team, definately the people's favourites, but Jesus, some of their supporters let them down.

In exactly the same way that Limerick are a great, gutsy side who were let down by a manager who couldn't do the decent thing and keep his trap shut.

kincsem

Hello everyone,

I mostly post on the poker forum. I called into the GAA forum to see if there was any comment on what I saw in the hurling final. In my opinion the Kilkenny number ten should have been red-carded twice. He is a great player, but I didn't like what I saw, and it was not accidental.

My previous posts on the GAA forum were followed by abuse. I suppose that is what supporters do.

run_Forrest_run

jaysus lads, hurling is a fast, tough & physical game. Lads like Donal O'Grady, who knows a thing or two about hurling (and the 3 panelists on the Sunday Game highlights) has often said that is the way it should be played. Listen, Limerick played tough against Waterford in the semi-final and there was no complaints. This physicality thing seems to be the latest stick to which the ABKs of this country want to beat Kilkenny because it is the only way they can!

But remember to be the best you also need skill...muscle and force alone will not cut the mustard.

If people don't like all this 'roughness' then sure they can go off and play tag rugby for themselves

Amazotheamazing

JHMEG wrote:

Cop on. Eoin Kelly didn't see it that way and neither did the Sunday Game panelists when they replayed Reale's knackerish behaviour.


Yeah most people are laughing at him alright..for the clown that he is!

So, still bitter then?

I thoguht Kelly was also carded in that game? It's a man's game JHMEG, I doubt either Shanahan or Kelly are nursing the grudges like you.

It's a pity you've left a few words colour what you think of Bennis, but then again, i've let your rants colour my opinion of you. You should be asking what Bennis did to a bunch of far less experienced hurlers to get them to a AI final, and why can't Waterford do the same?

premierstone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

You should be asking what Bennis did to a bunch of far less experienced hurlers to get them to a AI final, and why can't Waterford do the same?

Actually i can tell you what Bennis did to get this Limerick team to an AI - Limerick played 7 championship matches and only won two of them inside the 70 mins one against a clare team that even the most ardent of clare supporters will admit are in decline and then beat a waterford team playing their third match in 14 days - so bravo King Ritchie. - oh yeah and then lost an AI in about 9 mins

Amazotheamazing

2 more matches than we won in about 7 years though. Are you implying Tipp are even worse to be unable to beat such a crap team then?

premierstone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

2 more matches than we won in about 7 years though. Are you implying Tipp are even worse to be unable to beat such a crap team then?

Absolutely, Tipperary were a shambles this year with a joke of a management set-up but with last years very good u-21 team and back to back minor all-irealnds secured if we have the right man in charge i think we have a much brighter future than Limerick tbh, the only two players who shone for limerick on sunday were ollie moran and mark foley who are both nearer to the end of their careers and there doesnt seem to be anyone coming through to replace them

Amazotheamazing

Hickey will probably move out to replace Foley, don't forget we were in the minor final recently enough and have some very strong underage coming through. The team itself is very young, probably a little too young for an AI final, they were over-awed by the occasion.

Sir Graball

run_Forrest_run wrote:

jaysus lads, hurling is a fast, tough & physical game. Lads like Donal O'Grady, who knows a thing or two about hurling (and the 3 panelists on the Sunday Game highlights) has often said that is the way it should be played. Listen, Limerick played tough against Waterford in the semi-final and there was no complaints. This physicality thing seems to be the latest stick to which the ABKs of this country want to beat Kilkenny because it is the only way they can!

But remember to be the best you also need skill...muscle and force alone will not cut the mustard.

If people don't like all this 'roughness' then sure they can go off and play tag rugby for themselves

I agree. I was at the game on Sunday. Yes Brennan got away with a few things but there are incidents in all games. Sunday wouldn't be typical Brennan. Kilkenny a dirty team? Never in the tradition of the county nor at present. There might be the odd scamp and there were 'tough men' on past and recent teams but dirty -no way. Remember when you use the term 'dirty team' your implying illegal tactics, cynical fouling and /or assault.
When was the last time a Kilkenny player was sent off ? When was the last time there was even a hint of scandal surrounding a Kilkenny player? And don't come back saying the Refs are not spotting it because there are enough 'analyists' about to highlight any cynical behaviour.You don't win 5 All-Irelands in 8 years by being a 'dirty team' . Tipp's infamous 'Hell Kitchen' team of the mid 60's won three in a row, why? Because they were dirty? No, because they had some tremendous hurlers Jimmy Doyle,Roche,English. Dirty hurling implies tactical inability and a lack of skills.Players of the calibre of Shefflin,Walsh,Delaney et al don't need to resort to dirty play.Cody is around long enough to know that .
There are dirty strokes in hurling not dirty teams. Most of this cr** coming out now is fodder for TV and papers( don't take any notice of Loughane he's off the wall, Cody should have known better and ignored him) .It's all about stirring sh** and engaging viewers and readers.For example read another of Flynn's articles ( IE 4/9/07) and you'll see he had a preference for a Limerick win, he has never exactly been a favourite down Noreside for his 'objective 'approach.
There was another article yesterday in the IE entitled 'Spreading the Leadership Load'( forget name of jurno) with an interesting take on Sunday.I'd advise you all to read it and reflect on its theme and substance before coming out with half-arsed comments. Oh by the way 'Up the Cats'

MrJoeSoap

Spreading the Leadership Load (Michael Moynihan)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=GAA-qqqa=sport-qqqid=41605-qqqx=1.asp

premierstone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Hickey will probably move out to replace Foley, don't forget we were in the minor final recently enough and have some very strong underage coming through. The team itself is very young, probably a little too young for an AI final, they were over-awed by the occasion.

Definitely agree with you re. Hickey infact i would have had him wing back this year to be honest for two reasons firstly he is a fine hurler no doubting that but he is not a natural corner back and i really noticed that in the first replay against tipp when seamus butler gave him a torid time in the first half and also because neither lawlor or o'riordan are good enough imo

run_Forrest_run

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Spreading the Leadership Load (Michael Moynihan)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=GAA-qqqa=sport-qqqid=41605-qqqx=1.asp

What a decent article, a breath of fresh air.

JHMEG

Amazotheamazing wrote:

So, still bitter then?

I thoguht Kelly was also carde

zzzz...

Amazotheamazing wrote:

You should be asking what Bennis did to a bunch of far less experienced hurlers to get them to a AI final, and why can't Waterford do the same?

See premierstone's post above

Tanabe

Erin Go Brath wrote:

A lot of the great teams are 'borderline cheats'.

That is it - personified. It's the art of actually knowing how, when & where to bend rules, but NEVER break them.

IMO Bennis' comments ARE sour grapes, he should have had the intelligence to realise that's the way it's going to be interpreted after his side lost to the AI Champions. Kilkenny won the game fair & square.

As somebody already pointed out, all this talk is just mindless fodder for the tabloid press & I would pay it no mind.

Let the final scores do all the talking.

gbh

I guess some people think that if you're not caught by the ref, if you're not booked or sent off then its ok. To be honest the rule book probably says very little about cheating much less than other sports. Like i dont have the rulebook at hand but is there any mention about obstructing off the ball runners, stuff like that. Lets be fair there is a lot of suspect stuff goes on in the average hurley match every player would tell you that. The key is not to get caught. Kilkenny seem to be good at getting away with things like giving the nudge in the back before their marker jumps. Thats not phsysicallity which is something totally different, its plain cheating.

The analysts came up in a different era where hurling while not perfectly clean there wasn't the same level of skullduggery as today. And video replays are not allowed during matches and anyways are only used for serious crimes not nudges, shoves, shirt pulling, obstructing, holding hurleys etc.

And the AI final is watched by every young hurler in the country. This gives a message that cheating is ok. Like someone said games can and do turn on small events, the bounce of a ball, a push in the back, an obstruction etc etc.

patmbrenn

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I thought Loughnanes comments were spot on.
He said what most people think but are afraid to say.
After Kilkenny lost 2 All Irelands in a row to Cork,Cody changed Kilkenny's style of play to a cruder harder and dirty style.
Kilkenny are definitely the most cynical and dirty team in the country.
They are very sly and good at cheating but the fact remains that they are a dishonest team.
Cody has coached them well to bend the rules .
Obstruction,grabbing an opponents hurley,holding a hurley up at neck height to block an opponent,sticking a hurley between an opponents legs,pushing,unfair shouldering,fingers in the eyes,knees in the back .
Kilkenny are masters of this form of fouling and quite frankly the GAA should do something about it.
I have no problem with a high intensity ,physical game but it must be clean and fair.

What a load of nonsense, both Bennis & loughnane have come out with these excuses before and after a game, the former as an excuse and the latter as a lame attempt to get favourable ref treatment... KK are not a dirty team, Eddie Brennan's tackle was disgraceful but it is the only incident of that type that a KK player has pulled over the last two years of championship hurling, are these the actions of a so called dirty team ? Please reference other specific incidents!
Anyone who was at the match on Sunday will realise that KK got no decision after that and I believe it was commented on the TV that KK were not getting free's they should have have been.

Please people wake up, other counties are so far behind KK they will try anything, as far the comment that Limerick out scored KK for the last 60 mins, what can you say, maybe some should tell Richie it is a 70 min game.
Limerick lost, get over it concentrate on next year

Sir Graball

gbh wrote:

I guess some people think that if you're not caught by the ref, if you're not booked or sent off then its ok. To be honest the rule book probably says very little about cheating much less than other sports. Like i dont have the rulebook at hand but is there any mention about obstructing off the ball runners, stuff like that. Lets be fair there is a lot of suspect stuff goes on in the average hurley match every player would tell you that. The key is not to get caught. Kilkenny seem to be good at getting away with things like giving the nudge in the back before their marker jumps. Thats not phsysicallity which is something totally different, its plain cheating.

The analysts came up in a different era where hurling while not perfectly clean there wasn't the same level of skullduggery as today. And video replays are not allowed during matches and anyways are only used for serious crimes not nudges, shoves, shirt pulling, obstructing, holding hurleys etc.

And the AI final is watched by every young hurler in the country. This gives a message that cheating is ok. Like someone said games can and do turn on small events, the bounce of a ball, a push in the back, an obstruction etc etc.

Firstly, no one said it's ok to get away with cynical stuff like tugging,tripping or obstruction.It happens in all games but don't kid yourself by thinking that it's not throughout the game,or that the Kilkenny team have degrees in it.If they have they must have graduated from several schools.
Secondly, with regard to 'skullduggery' in the modern game I wonder did you hear the recent radio interview with Mick Mackey one of the greats of hurling who when asked whether he had occasion to deceive the ref when soloing by actually having the ball in his hand ( Carey was reputed to get away with it on occasion -alledgedly) Mackey replied that he had when he could get away with it. My point being that cynicism is not unique to the modern game it is a facet of it whether we like it or not. Of course if it is discovered it should be dealt with.
Finally, no denying what you say but games can turn on a lot of things. Take examples from last Sunday. Delaney stopping the semi-penalty ( shouldn't have been given in my opinion as a Kilkenny player was blatently pulled back previous to the free been given), Tyrell diving in front of O'Saughnessy's kick at goal, Shocks poor attempt at a free in the opening minutes. These are only a few examples. We could argue all day about what turns a game.I don't condone cheating in any sport but unfortunately until we have the perfect system of censure ( which is non-existent) we have to live with it. Our only alternative is to abandon sport as a cynical pass-time, and that my friend is not going to happen.

kincsem

Sir Graball wrote:

I don't condone cheating in any sport but unfortunately until we have the perfect system of censure ( which is non-existent) we have to live with it. Our only alternative is to abandon sport as a cynical pass-time, and that my friend is not going to happen.

Well, I didn't bother to watch any more of the hurling final after seeing the foul play by the number ten. I thought hurling was cleaner than football. I'd already given up watching that.

The ref shows people cards of many colours, but very, very seldom red. Are the refs afraid of the fans?

An Citeog

kincsem wrote:

Well, I didn't bother to watch any more of the hurling final after seeing the foul play by the number ten. I thought hurling was cleaner than football. I'd already given up watching that.

The ref shows people cards of many colours, but very, very seldom red. Are the refs afraid of the fans?

You must be an avid fan so! That "number ten" has 2 allstars and a host of medals to his name. Kilkenny play with a physical intensity needed to win 2 All Irelands in a row. That's what makes them such a great team. They have everything you need. They have the physical and mental toughness needed as well as the skill. Cork came in a few years ago and blew the other teams away with their sheer intensity and will to win. Kilkenny have stepped up since then and reclaimed their crown.

sk8board

As a kilkennyman, I find all this talk of KK being a dishonest, dirty team a little tiresome, and perhaps even funny.

Sure, we avoiding the other top teams this year, and its been probably the easiest McCarthy Cup that will be won for many years.

I stand corrected, but this year I can't remember a red card for a KK player in the championship, yet:

- Cork/Clare kicking 6 shades out of each other was cringworthy and embarrassing
- Reales deserved red card in the drawn Tipp match
- O shaughnessy in the All-Ireland (watched it again last night). Every free he won was followed by a dirty stroke back into the KK player. I assume this is an example of this dishonest play everyone seems to be on about.
- David O Connor's intention to spend 70min assaulting Tommy Walsh in the quarter-final (was sitting about 20 yards away from them). Thankfully he was subbed, although not before taking the head off PJ Ryan in a one-on-one; is that where he broke his arm?
- Offaly - 4 yellow, 1 red against KK. (KK 2 yellow).

Successful teams playing any sport in Ireland have always got to be prepared for the nation of begrudgers that we all are. KK seems to have mastered that, and the team was very unemotional in their style of play this year, showing very little sympathy.

The only annoying aspect to all this, is that the original instigator of it all, Ger Loughnane, himself the trainer of the dirtiest Creatine-enhanced team that I've ever seen in the flesh in '98, is simply missing the attention of being on the Sunday Game and Star newspaper. Yet we still have to listen to his nonsense.

Roll on Galway next year.

sk8board

As a kilkennyman, I find all this talk of KK being a dishonest, dirty team a little tiresome. It certainly doesn't annoy or anger me.

My dirty, dishonest memories from this year:

- Cork/Clare kicking 6 shades out of each other was nothing short of cringworthy and embarrassing
- Reales red card in the drawn Tipp match
- O shaughnessy in the All-Ireland (watched it again last night). Every free he won was followed by a dirty stroke back into the KK player. I assume this is an example of this dishonest play everyone seems to be on about
- David O connor's intention to spend 70min assaulting Tommy Walsh (was sitting about 20 yards away from them). Thankfully he was subbed, although not before taking the head off PJ Ryan in a one-on-one.
- Offaly - 4 yellow, 1 red against KK. (KK 2 yellow).

Successful teams in Ireland have always got to be prepared for the nation of begrudgers. KK seems to have mastered that, and the team was very unemotional in their style of play this year, showing very little sympathy.

And all this because of bloomin' Ger Loughnane, himself the trainer of one of the dirtiest Creatine-fuelled teams that I've ever seen in the flesh in '98.

Roll on Galway next year.

kincsem

I'm posting on the GAA forum not as a begrudger, or an avid fan. I'm just a sports fan. I don't have an axe to grind with any county, or with the association. But I am less and less inclined to view gaelic games due to what I perceive as an increased level of violence. And I am worried about the support for this violence.
I worked with a lad who got his first county game with a top county. Early in the game, when the play was up the other end of the pitch, he was punched in the face without warning, by a player that came from behind him. He needed medical help.

MrJoeSoap

kincsem wrote:

I'm posting on the GAA forum not as a begrudger, or an avid fan. I'm just a sports fan. I don't have an axe to grind with any county, or with the association. But I am less and less inclined to view gaelic games due to what I perceive as an increased level of violence. And I am worried about the support for this violence.
I worked with a lad who got his first county game with a top county. Early in the game, when the play was up the other end of the pitch, he was punched in the face without warning, by a player that came from behind him. He needed medical help.

And? What impact does this incident have on your general view of the sport, because as far as I can see, hurling is actually one of the more relaxed and dependable sports. Very few serious injuries occur as a result of violent play, especially when Kilkenny play.

kincesm I'm not sure if your comment has much relevance to the discussion at hand.

kincsem

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Bennis: Cats ‘on the edge’Stressing his comments were not sour grapes after Sunday’s final defeat, Bennis said that Brian Cody’s side are ‘a borderline team’ in terms of physicality and revealed two of his players received nasty injuries in off the ball incidents.

The match where I narrated an off the ball incident was not the all-Ireland hurling final, so in that sense my comment about an off the ball incident is not relevant. It was a top-level, top counties fixture.

My point is that there appears to be plenty of off the ball incidents (violent incidents) that are not penalised, Often the incidents are obvious. The referees ignore them or penalise them minimally (show a card that means nothing). The commentators gloss over it with comments like "strong challenge".

The games are becoming nasty contests, unfortunately.

Many say if you don't like it don't watch it. And that is what has happened. Watch a little, see the same old incidents, and turn off.

I'm not posting here to paint the GAA in a bad light. I would like to see the games played in a sporting manner, with physical challenges, but without sneak assaults. I think the games are attractive, but could be much better if they were cleaned up.

run_Forrest_run

MrJoeSoap wrote:

And? What impact does this incident have on your general view of the sport, because as far as I can see, hurling is actually one of the more relaxed and dependable sports. Very few serious injuries occur as a result of violent play, especially when Kilkenny play.

kincesm I'm not sure if your comment has much relevance to the discussion at hand.

spot on Joe...compare the amount of long term injuries from hurling to that form the ever popular rugby. Under-age kids who play rugby are often suffering from knee or hip injuries by the time they reach 18..do the research ad you will see this.

Cyril Farrel wrote a good article in the sports supplement in the Indo on Saturday last (8th) [in relation to the latest accusations aimed at the Kilkenny hurlers]. People should read it.

MrJoeSoap

run_Forrest_run wrote:

spot on Joe...compare the amount of long term injuries from hurling to that form the ever popular rugby. Under-age kids who play rugby are often suffering from knee or hip injuries by the time they reach 18..do the research ad you will see this.

Cyril Farrel wrote a good article in the sports supplement in the Indo on Saturday last (8th) [in relation to the latest accusations aimed at the Kilkenny hurlers]. People should read it.

Cheers for the heads-up, heres the article in question:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/kilkenny-detractors-should-be-ashamed-of-their-comments-1074122.html

UNFAIR, unfounded and unsustainable -- and that's just for starters. I'm very disappointed by attempts to detract from Kilkenny's latest All-Ireland win by suggestions they cross the borders of decency, ambush the poor unsuspecting souls on the other side and return with the Liam McCarthy Cup and a few trophy heads.

My admiration for Ger Loughnane as a manager is well-known but I couldn't disagree more stridently with his questioning of Kilkenny's physical approach. Of course, they live on the edge but doesn't everybody? Once it's fair and honest -- as Kilkenny's is -- what's the problem?

Is Ger trying to tell us the great Clare team of the nineties didn't have a hard physical edge? They definitely did but I don't recall any complaints. I managed a successful Galway team in the late eighties that had some hardy characters but Kilkenny and Tipperary, our two main rivals at the time, gave as good as they got.

When Ger Henderson squared up to Brendan Lynskey it was hard and fair but neither ever complained. Ollie Kilkenny and Pat Fox had had some epic battles but it was manly stuff.

And when you look back on some of the great Kilkenny warriors like 'Fan' Larkin, Dick O'Hara, Pat Henderson and Frank Cummins can anybody seriously say that today's team is tougher? Eddie Keher took some terrible wallops at a time when forwards got a lot less protection than they do now but didn't complain either.

To depict the current Kilkenny team as calculating hit-men is laughable. If opponents are physically intimidated by Tommy Walsh and Eddie Brennan, both of whom have unflattering things said about them, they're in the wrong sport.

The truth is that every county is jealous of Kilkenny and understandably so. What Kilkenny have achieved under Brian Cody this decade is phenomenal. We should all acknowledge that without trying to undermine them by jibes about their physicality.

As a Galway man, who managed teams in some right good battles with Kilkenny, I'm disappointed that Loughnane has portrayed us as a crowd of whingers because it does not represent the Galway hurling people I know. It's Ger job to put Galway in a position where they can beat Kilkenny. In other words, get your own game right and let the opposition worry about you. It's what Kilkenny do so well. They should be admired for that and not smeared by ill-founded accusations.

Meanwhile, a Dublin win in tomorrow's U-21 final would be a huge boost for hurling -- but that's not Galway's concern and I expect Vincent Mullins to have his team well-primed to land another title. The win over Cork will have brought them on considerably and while Dublin are fit and focussed, I suspect their defence will struggle against Joe Canning and Co.

run_Forrest_run

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Cheers for the heads-up, heres the article in question:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/kilkenny-detractors-should-be-ashamed-of-their-comments-1074122.html

Thanks for posting Joe.