Naming of Surfing Secret Spots

longboardirelan

Could I make a request re a thread on the surfing forum. I politely asked for a thread to be edited which mentions a spot in kerry as a surfing location. This spot is regarded as secret spot and as such is covered by a loose but widely observed rule governing the nameing of secret spots on the web. The general rule is that if it is mentioned in the Stormrider guide then it can be named. Please see the ISA (the Irish National Surfing governing bodys )"rule" on this - http://www.isasurf.ie/index.php?page=faq the spot mentioned is not in this guide and is also quite a dangerous beach. When I asked for it to be edited the moderator actually created a new thread called the spot name and posted the correspondence here. This is purely to antagonise. I have no problem with people coming to surf at this spot, I just asked them not to advertise/name it. I'm sure if you check with the ISA or in fact the Kerry Surf club they will confirm. The chairman of the Kerry Surf Club is <snip> or go to http://www.kerrysurfclub.com

thank you in advance

Thanks

Dave

administrator of www.longboardireland.com

Gone West

I did not create a new thread. I merged the three threads started by users who signed up today to post about this.
In my opinion, any public beach which anybody can surf on is liable to be named and discussed. Just because you, and the others are locals in the area doesn't mean that you can dictate that certain beaches names cannot be mentioned online. I feel that that is against the spirit of this bulletin board.

Unfortunately the ISA or Kerry anything asscotiation's opinion on anything doesn't have any bearing on here.

Heres the thread
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055145011

Hopefully an admin will come back with an answer.

Beruthiel

Is it against Irish Law to name a public beach?
I am unaware of such a law existing, can you enlighten me on that?

Cuddlesworth

So.... Let me get this straight.

There is a good surfing spot, slightly dangerous.

A user advertised it.

Some guys that are part of a surfing club who knew about it and kept it secret don't like the fact that anybody outside of their club can now find out about the place and surf there.

You decide to request that a relevant piece of information to the surfing community be removed because of rules you guys made up?





You would have been better off saying nothing and letting it slide into obscurity.

smashey

One of the posters went so far as to threaten FuzzyLogic.

Pathetic.

Boston

See this post

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Boston

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Its elitism or "localism" as they call it that people arn't holding par with.

Amz

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I would agree with you Dave and I understand where the OP is coming from. I do however think that some of the people who joined boards in the last while, with the express purpose of threatening the moderator and causing problems on the forum went about things in a very poor fashion.

Had they been polite about it I'm sure they would not have met the kind of resistence they have met.

RuggieBear

http://www.glensandcoves.com/Location/Swireland.jpg

edit:come to think of it that site is probably breaking OSi copyright with that image. i'll link to it instead

seamus

[I removed the name and email address from your post. Posting names and/or contact details without that person's knowledge is not permitted]

With all due respect, this seems like internal politics to me. There are no actual rules governing what should and shouldn't be said, only some vague web traditions and frankly very odd and ridiculous mentions of "secret" spots.

Before I could give an opinion on this, I'd like to know why some consider these "secret" spots to be sacred and unmentionable, and also why the isa thinks that mentioning them is "not in the general interest of sustaining surfing here in Ireland".

If the issue is indeed safety, surely the correct procedure is to grade these spots and forewarn everyone about particularly dangerous spots, rather than try to create an unenforcable "don't mention the war" culture?

Beruthiel

Boston wrote:

See this post

That I won't stand for.

lightening

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Nope, its clearly localism. Locals keeping breaks to themselves, secrecy, waxing car windscreens, damaging property and as Carty says, punching the faces of each other on line ups. Childish carry on, should not be encouraged just because it happens in other places.

local surfer

I'm making a complaint. This surfing forum is not inkeeping with any other surfing forums or surfing bodies. The lack of a policy surrounding secret/sensitive/dangerous spots is very immature, and will inevitably lead to:

People trying to surf spots that are currently out of their league (I know, the Darwin law should have stopped this type of thing a long time ago), which in turn puts them in danger and others who then have to rescue them (double figures this year guys).

Friction from groups turning up at surf spots that cannot handle a crowd, this can and often does lead to verbal and physical violence, not cool, spoils a perfectly good session.

At the moment you can turn up at many of these spots and be welcomed (almost) with opened arms, because they are still fairly quiet. Hopefully, local surfers will also go to the effort of highlighting the risks, the rips, the rocks, the tides, etc. Once the number (frequency and size) of visitors increases owing to pulicising, this will be lost.

I think the way that the thread ran was very antognistic, and again very immature. I apologise for slipping the K word in, but man, I just couldnt believe the reaction from some people.

carty

These are not rules that are made up they are guidelines within the international surfing communitee, similar to the unwritten rules for surf ediquette, right of way when surfing etc. They are printed in almost every publication on learing to surf and further guidelines since the growth of the net have been introduced which see's surf forums world wide using this guideline. As stated above it is the view of the Irish National Club the Irish Surf Association and is followed by every other Irish and international surf forum.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cornbb

lightening wrote:

Nope, its clearly localism. Locals keeping breaks to themselves, secrecy, waxing car windscreens, damaging property and as Carty says, punching the faces of each other on line ups. Childish carry on, should not be encouraged just because it happens in other places.

QFT. And I think the fact that the ISA claims that keeping secret spots secret is good for the sustainable development of the sport flies in the face of logic.

Gillo

seamus wrote:

With all due respect, this seems like internal politics to me. There are no actual rules governing what should and shouldn't be said, only some vague web traditions and frankly very odd and ridiculous mentions of "secret" spots.

Before I could give an opinion on this, I'd like to know why some consider these "secret" spots to be sacred and unmentionable, and also why the isa thinks that mentioning them is "not in the general interest of sustaining surfing here in Ireland".

If the issue is indeed safety, surely the correct procedure is to grade these spots and forewarn everyone about particularly dangerous spots, rather than try to create an unenforcable "don't mention the war" culture?

The whole thing stink's of elitism to me; perhaps there is a certain safty element but surely your idea of a grading system would work better.

lightening

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Who was posting up maps???

All I said was that St. Finians bay looked good!

Boston

carty wrote:

These are not rules that are made up they are guidelines within the international surfing communitee, similar to the unwritten rules for surf ediquette, right of way when surfing etc. They are printed in almost every publication on learing to surf and further guidelines since the growth of the net have been introduced which see's surf forums world wide using this guideline. As stated above it is the view of the Irish National Club the Irish Surf Association and is followed by every other Irish and international surf forum.

Boards.ie is a privately operated site, your guidelines meaning nothing in. We don't have to fall in line with other sites.

daveirl: You make solid points, however people are on the one hand talking about people's safty and well being, while on the other hand threating violence.

RuggieBear

i can see where you are coming from Dave but imo if an area is dangerous it should be highlighted not kept secret.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

seamus

local surfer wrote:

People trying to surf spots that are currently out of their league (I know, the Darwin law should have stopped this type of thing a long time ago), which in turn puts them in danger and others who then have to rescue them (double figures this year guys).

So instead of making an attempt to highlight dangerous spots, you just try to pretend that they don't exist, and people only hear about them through winks and nods and nudges? Very mature altogether.

Friction from groups turning up at surf spots that cannot handle a crowd, this can and often does lead to verbal and physical violence, not cool, spoils a perfectly good session.

Well that's just idiocy. If you get annoyed about there being too many people at your favourite spot, you find a new spot, you don't get violent.

I personally think that the "done thing" is largely irrelevant - mainly because in this short thread and the one before it, no-one has given a decent reason for keeping certain spots secret. It defies logic to me. Just because there's a general agreement, doesn't necessarily mean that's the correct approach.

I get dave's point that

We respect conventions on boards.ie relating to loads of similar topics, for example the selling of characters in MMOs, the avoiding of spoilers for films/tvs. The banning of scorelines in thread titles in Soccer/Rugby.

None of these things are mandated by law but boards.ie respects conventions and best practice. I don't see why this should be any different.

However, I don't think boards.ie made these rules because they are the "done thing". They made these rules because that's what the forum regulars wanted. Plenty of online forums allow spoilers and scores to be posted.

And in this case, if the forum regulars think that shushing certain spots is the right thing to do, then perhaps it should be done. But I wouldn't recommend that it's done just because everyone else does it.

Boston

RuggieBear wrote:

i can see where you are coming from Dave but imo if an area is dangerous it should be highlighted not kept secret.

I agree. Look at it this way, you've a user who notices a spot he hasn't been to before (unaware of any of the secret bull) and says it looks good. The right course of action would have been to inform him of the dangers if they exist. We all know of the site now, sure every one that reads one of my 11 thousands posts will, why not tells us about the exact dangers?

Boston

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

usually for a good reason though, rather then 'see you at surf'.

stevenmu

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

As I would understand it those conventions are in place because they suit the users of boards.ie, and just happen to be in line with what other sites do.

local surfer

Boston wrote:

Boards.ie is a privately operated site, your guidelines meaning nothing in. We don't have to fall in line with other sites.

daveirl: You make solid points, however people are on the one hand talking about people's safty and well being, while on the other hand threating violence.

Thats human nature for you, two sides to every coin. What is being explained to you is the dual side of the argument that is pretty much universally accepted within the surfing world. Your lack of knowledge of said rules (however unofficial - see common sense) indicates that you are not very experienced within the surfing realm, and your attitude implies that you would be one of the ones I would be having to drag out of a rip.

I have never, ever met an experienced surfer who does not understand and accept these arguments.

I believe the purpose of the thread was not to stop people from surfing different spots, just to not mention them on a public surfing forum.

Borzoi

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

But these are OUR conventions, we created them and maintain them.

What's happening here is a bunch of new people joining to say: you can't do that because we don't like it.

Big difference

Cuddlesworth

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

All of these rules and guidelines in the forums mentioned were implemented because the users of the forums asked for it. The selling of characters in Wow is hated by the Wow community on boards, the spoilers for tv/fim/sports because nobody who use's the forums wants to be told the score before seeing the match without asking for it.

What we have here is new people coming onto boards, from a outside club, posting rules used on other forums. I don't use the surfing forums, but I don't think I have seen any regular posters give out about this. Just the locals. This just smells entirely of elitism and the deliberate censoring on information.

Zambia

It makes sense but anyone who is taught to surf should be taught all this stuff as well.

Cant hold with trying to restrict others from public places knowledge.

Wonder how long before I can Write to the Ireland Rough Guide/Lonely Planet

local surfer

Well, I have tried.

See you in the rip.

Boston

local surfer wrote:

Thats human nature for you, two sides to every coin. What is being explained to you is the dual side of the argument that is pretty much universally accepted within the surfing world. Your lack of knowledge of said rules (however unofficial - see common sense) indicates that you are not very experienced within the surfing realm, and your attitude implies that you would be one of the ones I would be having to drag out of a rip.

I have never, ever met an experienced surfer who does not understand and accept these arguments.

I believe the purpose of the thread was not to stop people from surfing different spots, just to not mention them on a public surfing forum.

The duality of shut up or you'll get your face smashed in I understand very well. There is no great mystery surrounding your arguements.

I'm currently contemplating taking out a google advert for the keywords 'sufting ireland' and linking to this secret site and as many others as I can find (btw I'm an expert on finding out this type of information).

cornbb

local surfer wrote:

Thats human nature for you, two sides to every coin. What is being explained to you is the dual side of the argument that is pretty much universally accepted within the surfing world. Your lack of knowledge of said rules (however unofficial - see common sense) indicates that you are not very experienced within the surfing realm, and your attitude implies that you would be one of the ones I would be having to drag out of a rip.

I have never, ever met an experienced surfer who does not understand and accept these arguments.

I believe the purpose of the thread was not to stop people from surfing different spots, just to not mention them on a public surfing forum.

As far as I can see, the mention of St. Finians was just casually dropped into a post about a trip to kerry. Its not like he said "Hey everyone, head for this fantastic location and get yourself stuck in a rip!"

So is this what you do regularly then, police the internet to remove references to your local break? And you've drawn tons of people's attention to it, well done.

You still haven't given any real reason not to mention these spots on the internet, apart from vague references to the fact that its the "done thing" or "common sense". This indicates to me is that the real reason is jealous localism, nothing else.

Evil Phil

TBH, I'm only a beginner but I've found that the local surfers are a great source in info and a welcoming bunch both here and in the U.K. (I haven't surfed anywhere else). That being said there are certain ethics that should be respected even if they aren't a written rule or law. I make an effort to do so hence the people I've met have been friendly and helpful.

Our local ethics include not naming local/secret surf spots. This is not unusual. There seems to me to be a number of people involving themselves in the discussion on boards.ie who aren't involved in the sport. In short, they haven't a clue what their talking about.

Local ethics should always be respected and sadly in this case they haven't. That's why people are up in arms over this. I think the OP made a mistake instead of being deliberate and I think Fuzzy should rethink his stance.

Enygma

I'd also like to lodge a complaint.

The reason the ISA believes naming these spots is detrimental to surfing is that surfing in Ireland is a very limited resource. A small beach with one peak can only handle so many people, once the number of surfers in the water goes over a certain threshold then things can get heated. The way the ISA (and surf culture in general around the world) deals with this is not to list certain out of the way spots in guide books and on websites. Of course this flies in the face of "information should be free" but it is, and has always been, the way things are in the surfing world.

As a moderator on two Irish surfing sites I'm often asked by locals to edit posts to remove sensitive spot names and I always comply out of respect for the people that surf there.

Well known spots around the country can become so overrun with people that local surfers often retreat to lesser known spots to get their share of waves. Nobody is saying that these beaches are off limits, but they ask that these spots are kept on the QT online and in books.

It is a part of surfings culture all around the world, for better or for worse.

Unfortunately the thread in question did degenerate into a slagging match but I think my posts do respectfully ask that regular surfing ettiquite be respected. I have made several helpful posts in that forum and would not like to turn anyone off surfing.

I can assure you that anyone that arrives at this beach will be welcomed in as long as they respect the many unwritten rules of surfing. One of which is to respect what has come to be known as the "secret spot". Of course it's never a secret, but it's the place that is off the beaten track, away from the crowds, away from the kooks, where you can actually get a wave to yourself.

Most surfers would like to keep it that way, that is why the ISA has taken that stance.

It may also be of interest to you that surfers in Ireland voted not to hold a world championship competition in Ireland a few years back so as to keep the surf here quieter than other places around the world. The ISA turned down the competition and were actually fined for doing so, but there are still a lot of surfers out there that think they did the right thing.

So I'd ask that the name of the beach be removed. All are welcome there, but please respect the "unwritten rules" and don't post it online.

Zambia

local surfer wrote:

Well, I have tried.

See you in the rip.

No you wont because I from reading this thread have seen that the spot has a dangerous Rip. If I never read this post I could have found this beach by accident decide to surf my amateur ass off land in the rip and die because of the local surfers where at a wedding or something.

Boston

Evil Phil wrote:

Local ethics should always be respected and sadly in this case they haven't. That's why people are up in arms over this. I think the OP made a mistake instead of being deliberate and I think Fuzzy should rethink his stance.

How about the ethics of not throwing digs at people and acting like an arsehole, or are they unwritten rules?

I post on the airsoft forum, theres things you don't talk about on the forum, thats fair enough. If some arse hole came on and said "hey the airsoft community is small, edit your post or you may be in for a smack, i'd go ballistic.

joe_chicken

Threats have nullified any decent points that these people were making...

St Finians Bay, you say?!...

I'll have to inform my beginner friends with their Ripcurl Renault, and unwaxed boards to go check it out

Signed,
The Kookenest Kook

Enygma

What if he came in and started talking about the things that ye don't talk about?

Unfortunately it's true, people do get very very aggressive over surfing. I've seen it on quite a few occasions. It's not nice, but you have to be aware that it exists. No ones saying you can't go ballistic back though

Gone West

Look I've already said that I don't mind anybody mentioning spots that aren't widely known. A cat mod has stated his position as similar.
If a supermod or admin disagrees, well obviously then references to St Finians will be taken out. Until then, I don't mind.

But to be honest, the more people post on the threads, the more googlebot, etc will pick up "surf st finians" and rank it.

I know, there hasn't been a whole lot of swell, and the September hurricane/TS season is peaking in a week. Doesn't look like September is off to a good start. Felix is gone west and the big Autumn swells aren't materialising yet. I understand that theres not much else to do, bar threaten people online.

RuggieBear

Enygma wrote:

It may also be of interest to you that surfers in Ireland voted not to hold a world championship competition in Ireland a few years back so as to keep the surf here quieter than other places around the world. The ISA turned down the competition and were actually fined for doing so, but there are still a lot of surfers out there that think they did the right thing.

So I'd ask that the name of the beach be removed. All are welcome there, but please respect the "unwritten rules" and don't post it online.

That really reflects badly on those Irish surfers imo.

Enygma

Fair enough, I'd appreciate if the admins would contact me if they have any questions about my previous post. I wouldn't like to be associated with any threats but would still like this issue to be taken seriously.

FWIW I am also a Chairman of an ISA affiliated surf club.

Thanks

Boston

I think carty's first name is danny.

FuzzyLogic: Just for ref to the best of my knowledge Smods don't overrider forum mods or Cat mods when it comes to forum decisions.

cornbb

RuggieBear wrote:

That really reflects badly on those Irish surfers imo.

Yes, I'm quite saddened to learn that the governing body appears to support the localist stance. I'm open to correction if any policymakers from the ISA happen to read this.

RuggieBear

Boston wrote:

I think carty's first name is danny.

FuzzyLogic: Just for ref to the best of my knowledge Smods don't overrider forum mods or Cat mods when it comes to forum decisions.

if any smod/admin feels i'm in the wrong on this , please don't hesitate to override my decision. (Obviously can't speak for FuzzyLogic):)

Enygma

It was the irish surfers themselves voted for this. As far as I know the thinking was that they could keep Ireland as a destination where you could get away from the crowds, rather than drawing the crowds here to make a quick buck.

That was the thinking at the time at least. This was before the explosion of surfing in recent years however. Anyway, OT.

Evil Phil

Boston wrote:

How about the ethics of not throwing digs at people and acting like an arsehole, or are they unwritten rules?

There are written laws regarding punching people in this country as I'm sure you know. My comment wasn't about threats or defending the person who made the threat.

seamus

FuzzyLogic wrote:

Look I've already said that I don't mind anybody mentioning spots that aren't widely known. A cat mod has stated his position as similar.
If a supermod or admin disagrees, well obviously then references to St Finians will be taken out. Until then, I don't mind.

Even if one of us disagreed, it's not for us to dictate forum policy to you. You're the mod, what you say goes
The admins have a similar stance, but more becuase they prefer to allow things to sort themselves out instead of getting involved in every dispute.

From reading this thread, and from what people have said about the ISA and other Irish groups, surfing in Ireland is seen as something private and elitist, preferring to not draw attention to itself, which is quite sad IMO. I could be wrong of course, but that's the impression given out.

local surfer

One more try....

Evil Phil, that sums up one of the points very nicely.

I think the alledged threat was unfortunate.

My mention of violence is just a reference to what is already happening (none of it in any way shape or form to do with me), there was an incident at another spot a week or so ago. Even though I do not agree with this happening, it is the logical conclusion to over crowding at spots, all over the world there are examples of this, just look at hawaii for an extreme example.

Why contribute to this at all?.

Also, please remember that a kook is not a beginner, it is a person who does not comprehend the unwritten rules of surfing. These rules have evolved out of common sense.

local surfer

lightening wrote:

Another threat.

Again, the complainer still has not told anyone of the dangers of St. Finians bay. Judging by his personal message to me, its fairly obvious what the agenda is, he mentions that he lives 1 mile from the break, eluding that he actually has more right to ride those waves than I do.

"Hi

I'm just reading your post in the kerry thread. Could you remove the reference to St Finnians bay. St Finnians is regarded as a secret spot and is also quite dangerous for beginners and shouldnt be advertised on public forums. The general rule in Ireland is that only spots listed in the stormrider guide are fair game for www discussions.I live 1 mile from St Finnians by the way. Thanks

Dave"

My name is not Dave, and I did not waste my time sending you a message.

Boston

local surfer wrote:

One more try....

Evil Phil, that sums up one of the points very nicely.

I think the alledged threat was unfortunate.

My mention of violence is just a reference to what is already happening (none of it in any way shape or form to do with me), there was an incident at another spot a week or so ago. Even though I do not agree with this happening, it is the logical conclusion to over crowding at spots, all over the world there are examples of this, just look at hawaii for an extreme example.

How about you contact the gardi and pass on the information you so obviously have.

The threat isn't alledged. The more you post the more inclined I am to go with the google advertising approach.