not working your notice

mcjohnso

I’ve been working in my current position for the last 5 months, during this time I have felt that the role I am doing is not representative of the role I interviewed for. Furthermore, my line manager / director, I feel has not offered any direction or guidance. In the last 5 months I have had a total of 8 emails and 4 conversation about work. After 3 months of working here I decided to arrange to have an informal chat to my line manager to explain I wasn’t 100% happy with my current role and I would like some direction to enable me to develop the role over the next 6-12 months. Since the conversation nothing has changed. As a result I decided to secure a new job elsewhere.

In my current contract it states that during the first 6 months of employment I will be in probation and the company reserves the right to terminate my employment with a 1 weeks notice period. I assumed this was reciprocal. However, not wanting to leave on bad terms I decided to give a 4 week notice which would enable me to develop hand over documents and arrange for my work to be handed over to another employee.

However, a second claws in my contract does state that I have to give a 3 month notice. Consequently I have been in dispute with my manager, which has caused an even worse working relationship. Currently I feel stressed coming into work and my line manger is making my working life very difficult and unpleasant. She has had very abrupt conversations with me, always in private, stating the lawyers have confirmed I must work a 3 month notice period. However I don’t feel I can work this period, especially as I have already agreed a start date with my new employer.

My understanding is that my current employer can take me to small claims court for breach of contract and they can also with hold reference. Fortunately I have had a very open conversation with my new employer, I am lucky as they have offered support to ensure I will start on the agreed start date. In fact they have even offered to let me start work next week. They have also confirmed they are not concerned if my current employer withholds a reference as I have already provided two other very good references.

I guess I am asking the question, how likely am I to be taken to small claims court?

jim_bob

why not just call in sick , show up late , spend the day talking on the phone and doing nothing, then they will get the message and let you go

cold_filter

Unless your earning them mega money and you leaving is going to result in them losing a shocking amount of sach, you'll be fine!

AARRRGH

mcjohnso wrote:

I guess I am asking the question, how likely am I to be taken to small claims court?

Very unlikely. Companies do not like legal issues, period.

Forget about the reference. As you say, you already have two references.

If on the off chance they did take you to court -

The job is not quite what they promised it would be
You have tried your best to improve things in work
You are still on probation
You have given a months notice

You've been very reasonable.

Personally I would take the risk and leave.

seamus

mcjohnso wrote:

My understanding is that my current employer can take me to small claims court for breach of contract and they can also with hold reference.

They can't take you to the small claims court. The small claims court is for consumers to settle greivances with companies, nothing else. They would have to take you to real court, paying real solicitors.

They can indeed withhold a reference, but that's well within their rights. Even if you left on fantastic terms, they have the right to refuse a reference. Some companies do this as a matter of policy.

Depending on your role, it has been argued successfully in the past that needlessly long notice periods are an unreasonable clause in a contract and as such are not enforceable.

It may be deemed unreasonable because at your level you would find it impossible to get a new job that would accept that amount of notice, which would effectively be denying you the right to seek employment elsewhere.

For example, let's say you're on a helpdesk doing standard helpdesk-y stuff. If you have a three month notice period and interview for other positions, there is no way in hell that any other employer will wait three months for a helpdesk staff member.

However, if you were a senior manager, then 3 months could be a very reasonable notice period, as other employers would probably wait that long for such an employee.

Your position/grade/role really is very important in deciding this.

If you decide to just leave and not work out your notice, there are a few things you should note:
1. The company are not legally allowed to withhold your P45, holiday pay or any other pay entitlements such as expenses.
2. The company may stop paying you from the day you leave - if you get paid monthly and leave in the middle of the month, you're not entitled to a full months' pay.
3. The company are not allowed to "charge" you for the days remaining on your notice - i.e. they cannot dock you pay, and they cannot dock you holidays (unless you say they can).

However, the company may take you to court for the costs they incur in your leaving early - extra recruitment costs, the cost of contractors, etc.

In the event that they do bring you to court, get a solicitor. If you could get a statement from your new employer saying that they wouldn't have hired you if they had to wait three months, that would help you immensely.

markpb

First thing is that companies cannot use the small claims court, it's person to business only so whoever told you that is BSing.

Secondly there's absolutely nothing tying to you to your current job, especially if the new employer has offered you a job without a reference. You may run into problems further down the line if another company asks to speak to your previous employers but you were there for such a short time, they probably won't be interested beyond asking you why you left so quickly.

dade

taken from http://www.entemp.ie/employment/rights/minimumnotice.htm


How much notice must I give my employer if I wish to end my employment?
If you have been in continuous employment for at least 13 weeks, you will be obliged to provide your employer with one week’s notice of termination of employment. However, if you have agreed in a contract to give a greater amount of notice, you will go by the amount specified in the contract.

How much notice must my employer give me if he/she wishes to end my employment?
The length of notice to which an employee is entitled varies according to length of service. They are as follows:

Length of Service Minimum notice
Thirteen weeks to two years One week
Two years to five years Two weeks
Five years to ten years four weeks
Ten years to fifteen years six weeks notice
More than fifteen years Eight weeks notice

If the employer prevents an employee from working out their notice, the employer will then be obliged to pay in lieu of notice.


Double check your contract, it might state that the 3 month thing is after your probation period. Alternatively just walk if they come after you issue proceedings for constructive dismal. you felt the conditions in the job where so bad you had no choice to leave. you tried to address them and the employer didn't help etc.

Can i ask what the job is mate? lets be honest unless you're a director or they have invested a serious lump in your training etc it'd cost them a fortune in litigation costs if they did try pursue you. I've walked out of many jobs and they threatened court if i didn't work my notice so i told them I'd see them in court and nothing came of it.

faceman

without goin into detail, i know of someone in a very senior role who was in a similar situation and nought happened despite the threats.

Seamus has summed it up quite clearly in his post.

seamus

OP, in future, never ever sign a contract without reading the entire thing cover-to-cover first. Some companies will try to put the rush on you and ask you to sign, but take your time. If you're unhappy with something, renegotiate. If they won't change it, don't sign it.

mcjohnso

dade wrote:

taken from http://www.entemp.ie/employment/rights/minimumnotice.htm


How much notice must I give my employer if I wish to end my employment?
If you have been in continuous employment for at least 13 weeks, you will be obliged to provide your employer with one week’s notice of termination of employment. However, if you have agreed in a contract to give a greater amount of notice, you will go by the amount specified in the contract.

How much notice must my employer give me if he/she wishes to end my employment?
The length of notice to which an employee is entitled varies according to length of service. They are as follows:

Length of Service Minimum notice
Thirteen weeks to two years One week
Two years to five years Two weeks
Five years to ten years four weeks
Ten years to fifteen years six weeks notice
More than fifteen years Eight weeks notice

If the employer prevents an employee from working out their notice, the employer will then be obliged to pay in lieu of notice.


Double check your contract, it might state that the 3 month thing is after your probation period. Alternatively just walk if they come after you issue proceedings for constructive dismal. you felt the conditions in the job where so bad you had no choice to leave. you tried to address them and the employer didn't help etc.

Can i ask what the job is mate? lets be honest unless you're a director or they have invested a serious lump in your training etc it'd cost them a fortune in litigation costs if they did try pursue you. I've walked out of many jobs and they threatened court if i didn't work my notice so i told them I'd see them in court and nothing came of it.

I'm not a director, but the job I am doing could effect the success of a deal with an external company. Basically I am a senior programmer. The company hasn't invested in training the staff so in real terms there is no one else who could do my job to the level I work at.

mcjohnso

jim_bob wrote:

why not just call in sick , show up late , spend the day talking on the phone and doing nothing, then they will get the message and let you go

i'd like to do that and I can see the how it would work. However, i don't think it's fair on my team mates. My issue is with my boss and although I am in notice I do feel I should be doing my job. (taking the moral high road and all that).

mcjohnso

dublindude wrote:

Very unlikely. Companies do not like legal issues, period.

Forget about the reference. As you say, you already have two references.

If on the off chance they did take you to court -

The job is not quite what they promised it would be
You have tried your best to improve things in work
You are still on probation
You have given a months notice

You've been very reasonable.

Personally I would take the risk and leave.

Well I'm defo leaving on the date I have laid out in my notice letter.

mcjohnso

seamus wrote:

They can't take you to the small claims court. The small claims court is for consumers to settle greivances with companies, nothing else. They would have to take you to real court, paying real solicitors.

They can indeed withhold a reference, but that's well within their rights. Even if you left on fantastic terms, they have the right to refuse a reference. Some companies do this as a matter of policy.

Depending on your role, it has been argued successfully in the past that needlessly long notice periods are an unreasonable clause in a contract and as such are not enforceable.

It may be deemed unreasonable because at your level you would find it impossible to get a new job that would accept that amount of notice, which would effectively be denying you the right to seek employment elsewhere.

For example, let's say you're on a helpdesk doing standard helpdesk-y stuff. If you have a three month notice period and interview for other positions, there is no way in hell that any other employer will wait three months for a helpdesk staff member.

However, if you were a senior manager, then 3 months could be a very reasonable notice period, as other employers would probably wait that long for such an employee.

Your position/grade/role really is very important in deciding this.

If you decide to just leave and not work out your notice, there are a few things you should note:
1. The company are not legally allowed to withhold your P45, holiday pay or any other pay entitlements such as expenses.
2. The company may stop paying you from the day you leave - if you get paid monthly and leave in the middle of the month, you're not entitled to a full months' pay.
3. The company are not allowed to "charge" you for the days remaining on your notice - i.e. they cannot dock you pay, and they cannot dock you holidays (unless you say they can).

However, the company may take you to court for the costs they incur in your leaving early - extra recruitment costs, the cost of contractors, etc.

In the event that they do bring you to court, get a solicitor. If you could get a statement from your new employer saying that they wouldn't have hired you if they had to wait three months, that would help you immensely.

good advice, i'll defo get a solicitor

schueys_girl

Hi guys,
I read this thread with much interest as i am going through a VERY similar situation at present and it is really bringing me down. Any advice much appreciated

I finished university in May of this year and started my current job as a nursery nurse at the beginning of june of this year. I worked 7 weeks full time (40hrs a week) and then the nursery I was at closed as it was attached to a school and it was the school holidays. During the 6 weeks school holidays i worked very minimal hours for a holiday club the nursery also runs.

I had been unhappy in my role from the start. When I initially was interviewed I was told I would be taking on a more managerial role, at least with some planning and running of the nursery room, as the girl who currently did this was leaving. Of course this would take some training but they knew I was keen to do this and look at further training. When I began my role there was no "extra work" other than the role of a nursery nurse, as this girl then decided that she wasnt leaving at all. I had told my employers in the interview that i was incredibly career minded, and was going to be exploring my other options from september of this year, that a nursery nurse role was fine for the beginning, as long as I was persuing some kind of training to extend my roles.

In July My employers offered me some training due to start this october Promising great things from this training, better salary, better role, more things to do with my brain etc. So i was placated for a while...until again nothing seemed to be happening. I wasnt getting anymore training of anything, and i was asking for resources such as the foundation stepping stones curiclum etc to study in my own time in preparation for this training to begin in october. I recieved nothing.

One of employers brought me my contract in july and being stupid and niave as this is my fist full time job i signed it, and altho i did read some of it i cannot recall reading the things my boss is later to bring up. I have NEVER been given my OWN copy of this contract with my signature on to this day...

By mid july I was getting restless. I had said i would work days in the schol holiday club for my boss and we agreed to 3 days a week. When she got someone else to ring me with my holiday hours they were 5 days a week, and with hardy any notice, like 4 days before the holidays were due to start. SO i contacted my boss to ask to meet with her to discuss this and also the "prospects" she had in mind for me once i did this training...

She met with me and i told her i was unhappy about the holiday hours changing when i hadnt been asked and she was going back on her word. I eventually got her to change them back to three days a week. I also asked her what her intentions were for me once i did this training (as this training would give me a qualificatio VERY beneficial to her...but she was offering nothing in black and white to me...and i didnt just want to be her label.)

She couldnt give me any answers, it was basically do the training and then we'll know. Not that "oh we need you in this new role, these will be your duties etc" this will be your new salary or your new responsibilities will be... etc

So alarm bells started ringing. I asked for resources through the holidays to read on management in nurserys, again the stepping stones curiculum, because I didnt want to start this training in october not having refreshed these things. Nothing again.

I am unhappy in my basic role as a nursery nurse. As much as i love working with children, full time 10 hours a day, just sitting watching children and not using my brain is not for me. I am struggling to get to sleep at night because i am worried this training will benefit only my employees and not me. I want to know i am progressing toward something because i havea lot of potential but i do not know where they are going with me. I dont want to do a training course and jus be wasting my time to continue to sit in a nursery nurse role.

So last week, i made the decision i wanted to go back to uni and look at progresing in another career (in line with my current degree) something i said i would be looking into anyway. I went to speak to course tutors on friday (31st) to make sure my decision was concrete. After knowing i would have a place on the course i wrote a resignation letter and took it to my workplace. The overall owner boss was not there but my manager was. I handed her the letter, which explained that i wasnt unhappy in my role etc and explained my current situation to her:

-basically i can work four weeks notice, as my uni lectures start on 1st october this year.
- asking for a couple of hours off on the 17th to physically go to uni to enrol on my degree.

My manager was very nice and that was that. But friday nite i get an email from my overall boss/owner saying that she had recieved my letter, my last day of duty is 12th october, as i have a contract that states 6 weeks notice, and she cannot release me or authorise any time off during this period.

Well i was dumbfounded. I emailed her back apologising and saying that I would be fully prepared to work my remaining 2 weeks notice or 10 days staggered over several weeks on the days/afternoons/mornings i am not at uni, as i cannot miss my first two weeks lectures. And i reiterated again that i only needed a few hours to enrol, and that if i didnt enrol, i couldnt start my degree.

The next email that comes back was compeltely horrible she actually goes so far as to say to me "the whole world does not revolve around you" (?!?!?!) and that if i dont work my notice that i have agreed to pay £120 per day for the days i dont work to cover agency costs. I swear i never read that in the piece of paper they gave me to sign...and i cant even check because i dont have a contract here myself!!!

So i emailed her back again (as much as i wanted to sound off i was completely professional back to her, unlike she was to me) simply asking her: "are you saying you are not prepared to cover me for the few hours to enrol, knowing this will mean i cannot start my degree, and that i cannot attend my first 2 weeks of uni lectures?"

I got an email back simply saying "I think i will have to meet with you this week when i have looked closely at the rotas"

I am sorry this was so long but i am completely in shock. I cannot believe she can be this unreasonable I am ONLY nursery nurse who sits and watches and supervises children. I am paid only SLIGHTLY above minimum wage. I have only worked 7 weeks full time and then 5 weeks mornings only for 3 days per week.....i dont have a copy of the contract...and i am being as reasonable and as helpul as i can be...i cannot do anymore!!

If i cant enrol i cannot start my uni course....and i cannot miss the 2 weeks of lectures i will set myself so far behind on a very difficult course...my uni tutors say they can write me a letter to explain how i have to enrol on 17th to select my modules and how missing the first 2 weeks of lectures would be extremely detrimental to me.

I cannot walk out and face them taking me to court...because if they win i will have to pay them £1200 in agency fees for the 10 days i cant work....which i cannot afford having only finished being a student in may!!!

what do i do please help xxx

IRISH RAIL

mmmm thats something similar to me a few years ago
heres what I did, and what i would expect anyone else to do
took all my holidays and found a new job,
got paid friday and thats the last they ever seen of me.
turned the phone off.
didnt bother with the p45 as you can ring the tax office and they will send a cert to your new employer.
people like that should not be allowed run companies.
forget about the reference forget about team mates cause when your gone they will forget about you.
dont miss your first two weeks at uni tell her to f off it will cost her more to take you to court than it will to hire someone

for the op on the first message tell your boss you are taking him/her to the rights commisioner as the position you applied for is not the position you are doing fight fire with fire.

schueys_girl

Thank you for your reply I would take my holiday but i havent acrued any...i only started there first week in june this year and have only worked for her 7 weeks full time!! xx

flash harry

here's an idea - why not comply with the contract you have signed, it was good enough when you signed it.

What about the employers rights - people always take the view of the big company screwing you over, but sometimes these are small companies that employees blatant disrespect/unprofessional behaviour genuinely costs large sums of money and jeopardises other peoples livlihoods.

If you "didn't realise" then take it as a valuable lesson learned and read them in future.

And for the recruiter bashers out there that I always reply to - this can be the calibre of professionalism we sometimes have to deal with.

FH

faceman

^ you obviously havent read the full post by the op! :rolleyes:

the_syco

flash harry wrote:

here's an idea - why not comply with the contract you have signed, it was good enough when you signed it.

Agreed 100%. It's a pity neither of their employers have read it. Esp the bit about their roles, and how their jobs now are completely different from the roles they were told about in their contracts.

schueys_girl

how about the company breaking the law by not giving me a copy of my contract? Apparently the contract is 5 pages long...but when they asked me to sign i had a page to read??? I admit being my first proper part time job i was niave but i have been told this is illegal??

How about the company expecting me to work 10 hour days with no proper breaks?

How about the owner of the company blatently bullying me by writing unprofessional things in emails to me "such as the world does not revolve around me"

How about the fact that i WANT to finish my notice but I wouldneed to do it on my days off from uni?! Am i supposed to miss my first two weeks of lectures when my job role is very easily replacable as a simple nursery nurse?

How about them not giving me ANY time off to enrol for my course...and anytime off to attend dentists appointment??! (dentists here closed at weekends)

How about them telling me my role would be more than just a nursery nurse (as i epressed explicitly at the interview that this would satisfy me mentally) and them not giving me anything else at all..despite me giving them plenty of chances?!

How about them expecting me to buy the supplies for the nursery when we run out of paper, glue, etc when they buy us one lot to last a whole year (it lasts like 2 weeks!) Bear in mind i work a 10 hour day and earn £45a day....so i dont have a lot of money to spare!!

How about them messing me about when I offer to help at a holiday club in the summer...i agree to 3 days and then they put me on to 5 days a week?!

How about the fact that i told them that i was career minded, and i would be exploring other options from september and if they wanted to keepme (they were desperate to have me woring for them because i have a degree) they would have to find me something to do!

I am not NOT wanting to work my notice. I want to work what i have agreed to work. Did you read my post at all?! I just need to spread the finall 10 days over a longer period so i dont miss the start of uni...

how am i the one being unreasonable?

NOTHING of what they offered to me, and promises made to me in the interview in june have been fulfilled. They have expected me to be happy to sit in a room and supervise children and do nothing with my brain....So therefore i want out of the job. It is not my fault my uni course starts before my notice period is up...i couldnt hand my notice in before i knew i was on the uni course....i have done EVERYTHING i possibly can to sort this out...!

flash harry

schueys - complain through the proper channels, I agree whole heartedly.

I was commenting on the general disregard for the company's rights.

schueys_girl

oh right ok thank for agreeing sorry i didnt mean to sound like i was biting your head off or anything lol i amjust so incredibly stressed out right now i am not sleeping at all....all i want to do is leave the job and go back to uni....argh!!!

I would complain through the proper channels...but i dnt know what these are...my boss clearly knows exactly how i feel...where else is there to take this??

imalegend

Ok in emploment law states you dont ever have to work a full period of notice if you have only been in a job for 7 weeks.1 week is sufficiant by law and they way he/she has carried on that all i would give.People think just cos its set down on paper its binding.Far from it.There are a million and one loop holes.

You have earned holidays.Id say u are owed 4 days holidays from your work done.And make sure you get paid for this.This will be hard 2 get as you went through an agency and agency's don't fight for your rights at all.They want their cut end of story.

IMO your being far 2 reasonable,its obvisoly a small business and they have no experience of dealing with staff and dont know the law.1 week and bye,you probably will not get a reference but they it has panned out i doubt you would anyway.The onus is always on the employer to show you have breached your contract.And even though he/she says you are you are not.

You cannot be held liable for agency fees either and the agency should be telling you this.Id love 2 see what grounds they say your are liable??For a breach on contract??if they say that they are bluffing and they know they are.If they try this just say fine go for it and you wont hear anything from them again.

I hear of this alot in small companies and if you wanted you could write to the rights commisioner and ask for them 2 get involved on your behalf but my advise is just give a weeks notice and get out.They are just trying 2 scare you into staying till u can be replaced without any loss of work or hassle.

schueys_girl

Hi imalegend thank you for your reply.

The company is not an agency is a group of nursery settings owned by one person. The agency costs she says i agreed to pay in my contract if i dont work the 6 weeks she is referring to the fact that she says she would need to call in "agency nursery nurses" who charge a lot (but i have no idea how much) to cover me because apparently she cannot find any other staff she currently has to cover me or wont find someoe else in the 4 weeks i can do...

Does what you say still count? I would honestly love to work less than 4 weeks because it is really stressing me out and affecting my health i honestly havent slept in 2 nights...but i will definetly do the four weeks i can do fully....i just want the last 2 to go to my first uni lectures...

if i have signed something that says i have to pay this agency fee in my contract cant she enforce it?! If she does i simply cannot afford the 120 x 10 for the days i would be at uni....so i cannot risk being made to pay this i dont have that kind of money!!!

imalegend

This is another case of a boss preying on decent staff.

You pay for cover??Are you joking me?Ive never heard anything so mad.And dont worry they wont try and sue you for that cos if they went 2 a lawyer and tried the advice they would get would be the employee can sue you for trying to enforce this payment.

I understand its not an agency,i thought u may have got the job through an agency.

This boss is just being a bully,i could advise to go down the proper channels but by the sounds of it you just want out.

1 weeks notice is sufficent by stautory employment law.It is done on years on service how much notice you have to give.You havent even touched the service and cos of this have very little rights as an empoyee but it also means you have no period of loyalty to the employer.

It comes across that your a frail person and this boss sees this and is walking all over you.Send a letter saying you have sought legal advice and im will be finishing up working with you after 1 weeks notice which i am giving you now.

Then do not have any discussions about it,if they try to call you say you have been advised not to say anything as they will just try and intimadte you.Do not send it as an email,send it as a hand written letter.

End of the story there is no way you have 2 pay any money 2 them,and if you you can persue your holiday pay that they owe you 2.They cant by law not pay you it.But sure this person doesnt seem to know or care about the law so my advise is dont even bring it up.Do a week and go!

the_syco

schueys_girl wrote:

The agency costs she says i agreed to pay in my contract if i dont work the 6 weeks she is referring to the fact that she says she would need to call in "agency nursery nurses" who charge a lot (but i have no idea how much) to cover me because apparently she cannot find any other staff she currently has to cover me or wont find someoe else in the 4 weeks i can do...

Play her at her own game. Say that your family solictor wants to look at said contract. Also say that you want it now. If she can't get it right now, it most likely doesn't exist. Any job I've worked in, the contract I signed was kept in their office.

Tiesto

mcjohnso wrote:

I’ve been working in my current position for the last 5 months, during this time I have felt that the role I am doing is not representative of the role I interviewed for. Furthermore, my line manager / director, I feel has not offered any direction or guidance. In the last 5 months I have had a total of 8 emails and 4 conversation about work. After 3 months of working here I decided to arrange to have an informal chat to my line manager to explain I wasn’t 100% happy with my current role and I would like some direction to enable me to develop the role over the next 6-12 months. Since the conversation nothing has changed. As a result I decided to secure a new job elsewhere.

In my current contract it states that during the first 6 months of employment I will be in probation and the company reserves the right to terminate my employment with a 1 weeks notice period. I assumed this was reciprocal. However, not wanting to leave on bad terms I decided to give a 4 week notice which would enable me to develop hand over documents and arrange for my work to be handed over to another employee.

However, a second claws in my contract does state that I have to give a 3 month notice. Consequently I have been in dispute with my manager, which has caused an even worse working relationship. Currently I feel stressed coming into work and my line manger is making my working life very difficult and unpleasant. She has had very abrupt conversations with me, always in private, stating the lawyers have confirmed I must work a 3 month notice period. However I don’t feel I can work this period, especially as I have already agreed a start date with my new employer.

My understanding is that my current employer can take me to small claims court for breach of contract and they can also with hold reference. Fortunately I have had a very open conversation with my new employer, I am lucky as they have offered support to ensure I will start on the agreed start date. In fact they have even offered to let me start work next week. They have also confirmed they are not concerned if my current employer withholds a reference as I have already provided two other very good references.

I guess I am asking the question, how likely am I to be taken to small claims court?

Would this be a computer software firm by any chance?

seamus

imalegend wrote:

Ok in emploment law states you dont ever have to work a full period of notice if you have only been in a job for 7 weeks.1 week is sufficiant by law and they way he/she has carried on that all i would give.People think just cos its set down on paper its binding.Far from it.There are a million and one loop holes.

Whoah, let's not get into misinformation.
1 week is the *minimum* mandatory, not the mandatory. You are entitled to that one week by law, and so is your employer. You can't sign a contract that gives you or the employer less than that, but you absolutely can sign a contract that requires more than that. There's a fair argument for "just because it's on paper, doesn't mean it's binding", but there's absolutely no way that you can know that the contract this person signed isn't binding.

1 weeks notice is sufficent by stautory employment law.It is done on years on service how much notice you have to give.You havent even touched the service and cos of this have very little rights as an empoyee but it also means you have no period of loyalty to the employer.

It comes across that your a frail person and this boss sees this and is walking all over you.Send a letter saying you have sought legal advice and im will be finishing up working with you after 1 weeks notice which i am giving you now.

Same again. Remember, the law only states the *minimum* notice that you and your employer have to give. If your contract states a longer notice period, then you are bound to that period (except if it's successfully challenged in court, as I outlined at the start of the thread).

imalegend

seamus wrote:

Whoah, let's not get into misinformation.
1 week is the *minimum* mandatory, not the mandatory. You are entitled to that one week by law, and so is your employer. You can't sign a contract that gives you or the employer less than that, but you absolutely can sign a contract that requires more than that. There's a fair argument for "just because it's on paper, doesn't mean it's binding", but there's absolutely no way that you can know that the contract this person signed isn't binding.

Same again. Remember, the law only states the *minimum* notice that you and your employer have to give. If your contract states a longer notice period, then you are bound to that period (except if it's successfully challenged in court, as I outlined at the start of the thread).

Yea i know its the minimum but i think this situation deserves the minimum.After an offer to work 4 weeks is thrown back in your face i would get out as soon as i could,especially if she is going to make my job hell.

There is no way regardless off what ever contract she signed that she has 2 work 6 weeks notice after having the job for 7 weeks!!I have done enough employment law to know this.

From what i see her boss has no idea of employment law and is trying to use heavy handed tactics to keep her until she can find a suitable replacment that wont cost her a fortune either.She is paying her just over minimum wage also and she knows how much a proper nurse will cost.

My advice is hand in the letter of 1 weeks notice,work it and get out.There is no point going down offical channels for a job you have only worked 7 weeks in and thats from experience.More hassle then its worth.Make a fresh start in uni and put this horrid experience behind you.

seamus

imalegend wrote:

There is no way regardless off what ever contract she signed that she has 2 work 6 weeks notice after having the job for 7 weeks!!I have done enough employment law to know this.

There's nothing in employment law that says, "If you've been working in a company less than X week, then you can ignore the contract that you signed".

It *is* possible that the notice doesn't apply, but this would require a trip to a court, and a judge to rule that the notice period was unreasonable and therefore unenforceable. There is no law that the OP can point to for a quick-fix get out of his/her contract.

kmick

There is a lot of talk here of solicitors, lawyers, laws and contracts. To be honest the situation is very simple.
1) You handed in four weeks notice after seven weeks working.
2) A contract which you signed without reading (very stupid) was used to hold a six week notice period over you.
3) Your employer is being unreasonable.

Therefore here is what you do. Next time you get a paycheck cash it and never go back. Do not work any more notice and do not take any more abuse. Simple as that. Lawyers/Solictors are expensive and time consuming. They will not sue you. It is just not worth it. Leave the stress and hassle behind and move on. Who gives a fock about the law. It only protects criminals - we all know this. You can murder someone in this country and be out in 4 years. What do you seriously think they can do to you? Absolutely nothing - that is what. Enjoy your life, you are young. Let it go as well you are obvously letting it affect you.

faceman

altho i dont agree with some of the things kmick is saying and the way he's saying it, he's write about one thing, its extremely unlikely there will be legal reprecussions.

imalegend

Ok seamus,i know there is nothing in employment actual law that say this but like all law it is case based and the cases i have looked at all favour the employee.And it doesn't need a trip to court to find this contract null and void on the notice period,if it doesnt meet certain standards it is null and void.Anyways forgewt about the legal aspect as we all know there will be no legal side to this case.

I dont completely agree with kmick but i do agree lawyers are expensive and unnecessary in this instance.But just to cover her self i would give a weeks notice and then leave after that regardless of the employers position.Getting paid and walking out is not an good option in my opinion.And im sure the b*tch of an empoyer is probably holding off on payment for as long as possible as she is afriad she would just walk out.

Dont worry , be happy!!:D

mcjohnso

flash harry wrote:

here's an idea - why not comply with the contract you have signed, it was good enough when you signed it.

What about the employers rights - people always take the view of the big company screwing you over, but sometimes these are small companies that employees blatant disrespect/unprofessional behaviour genuinely costs large sums of money and jeopardises other peoples livlihoods.

If you "didn't realise" then take it as a valuable lesson learned and read them in future.

And for the recruiter bashers out there that I always reply to - this can be the calibre of professionalism we sometimes have to deal with.

FH

Normally I would agree, however in my case anything and everything I tried to implement has been rejected on the basis I was required to carry out other work I was not employed to do. Also, I asked one of the poeple who interviewed me if they were aware the role I applied for the and the role I am doing are very different - she said yes. I do not have enough work to keep me going for a full 3 months notice. In fact it only took 2 hours to hand over everything (and I really do mean everything) to another member of staff.

mcjohnso

Tiesto wrote:

Would this be a computer software firm by any chance?

Fianance and I am a BI developer (not doing BI)

schueys_girl

Wow guys thank you so much for your replies you are reallyhelping me through this

Can i just first of all say Kmickk that I never said i didnt read the contract...i did read it to some extent...but please bear in mind that when my manager bought me my contract i was working at the time, looking after about 16 3 and 4 year olds with one other member of staff. They didnt come to me in my break, or out of work time, so i was still working when they brought me this contract to read...obiviously the environment i was in was not condusive to concentrating!!

I have since heard now that even this is wrong - that my contract should of been signed when i had complete time and concentration, and not when i was actually supposed to be working. Bear in mind also that i am POSITIVE i only didONE signature...which suggests there is only one TRUE copy...i am very sure i didnt sign 2 duplicates of a contract...

what i cannot understand is why i do not have this contract...they MUST surely be hiding something then....the fact that i do not to this day have a copy of my contract with my PROPER signature on (not a photocopy etc) surely makes the contract not binding? Or something like that??!

So do I ASK to see this contract with my PROPER signature on....or do I not and then am still able to say that i do not have a proper contract....what is the best thing to do on this note?

P.S thank you for all your advice i am going to read over it all again tonight i only got in from work at 6pm...after working since 7.50 this morning...and only having a half an hour lunch break...and only being paid for 8 hours a day!! lol what a joke

imalegend

Dont worry about the contract you don't need to see it!Doesnt matter what it says on it.

Hand in ONE weeks notice and get out.At least this way if she says she aint going 2 pay you or something like that you have a leg to stand.

seamus

schueys_girl wrote:

what i cannot understand is why i do not have this contract...they MUST surely be hiding something then....the fact that i do not to this day have a copy of my contract with my PROPER signature on (not a photocopy etc) surely makes the contract not binding? Or something like that??!

So do I ASK to see this contract with my PROPER signature on....or do I not and then am still able to say that i do not have a proper contract....what is the best thing to do on this note?

You don't have to be given a copy of your contract, however your employer is obliged to provide you with a copy on request.

Assuming that you were more-or-less pressured into signing your contract without reading it, that lends more weight to you in the event that it goes to court.

A lot of people have a tendancy to just sign contracts without actually reading through them, for whatever reason. Just remember in future to take whatever it is, and read it right through in your own time and in private. If they don't want to let you do this, don't sign it

I would recommend that you work out the notice that you've already given them, stick to your guns and if they mention taking you to court then tell them that you're leaving immediately and all future communications will be done through your solicitor. If someone is threatening legal action against you, the very first thing you do is cut off direct contact.

flash harry

this post has some of the best AND worst advice I've ever seen in one place!!

If you worked 13 weeks of continous employment statutory rights apply - minimum 1 week. However, if your contract says 1 month or 6 weeks or whatever this is the relevant timeframe.

If you then breach this legally binding contract (based on you fulfilling the 13 weeks rule by law) you can technically be sued for damages including getting emergency relief staff in schueys case.

If you did not sign a contract - statutory rules apply. If you did sign a contract and didnt read it - tough luck.

As for any mal treatment, job not what employed to d etc, you would have to prove it.

All of that said the chances of you beeen taken to court on this is slim unless company has money and time to waste..........

flash harry

this post has some of the best AND worst advice I've ever seen in one place!!

If you worked 13 weeks of continous employment statutory rights apply - minimum 1 week. However, if your contract says 1 month or 6 weeks or whatever this is the relevant timeframe.

If you then breach this legally binding contract (based on you fulfilling the 13 weeks rule by law) you can technically be sued for damages including getting emergency relief staff in schueys case.

If you did not sign a contract - statutory rules apply. If you did sign a contract and didnt read it - tough luck.

As for any mal treatment, job not what employed to d etc, you would have to prove it.

All of that said the chances of you beeen taken to court on this is slim unless company has money and time to waste..........

imalegend

in scheys case she hasnt worked 13 weeks as has been pointed out hence my standing point of a weeks notice!

do u reckon this is the correct way for he to leave this job fh??

jimmycrackcorm

The only sure fire way out is to get a stress related sick cert. Under employment law, if you are not capable of doing the job then the crontact conditions are invalid. (Recently did a course on employment law and very surprised about what I learned).

mcjohnso

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

The only sure fire way out is to get a stress related sick cert. Under employment law, if you are not capable of doing the job then the crontact conditions are invalid. (Recently did a course on employment law and very surprised about what I learned).

Stress leave has been suggetted to me, again to honest for my own good I wouldn't feel comfortable fibbing in this way. :-)

schueys_girl

hi guys. So i have tried to get my boss to meet with me and so far she hasnt...despite saying not last friday but the friday before she would meet with me. I also still do not have a copy of my contract with MY ORIGINAL signature on it...

So today i hear from a girl at work that a girl who left in january could only work 4 weeks notice because her next job started after that and it was to be a nanny abroad. So she works her 4 weeks and then when she gets paid its only £10 with the reason "the rest was used to cover you with the agency worker".

I dont know what to do. I have just started the 2nd week of my notice and my boss is clearly stalling....not meeting with me and not replied to my email at the weekend asking if she can meet with me today or after work or in the week etc. I dont want to work if i am not going to get paid!!!! I need whatever money i can get in these next few weeks before i start uni....please help me

schueys_girl

please help guys!!

imalegend

Stand up for yourself.

Only way to deal with this is if necessary call to her house with a letter handing in your notice of a week,say you aware of what happened with the girl in January and that you have sought legal advice and that you know you are not liable for any agency fees.

Say you expect to be paid in full on the day you finish working your WEEKS notice and if not you will be dealing with my solicitor.

She sounds like a wagon and will still try to screw you but you need to be confient in order for her to take notice.Hunt her down,dont email or phone her.

Says your working your 2nd week of your notice???wtf??are you mad??stop facilataing this b*tch,and do 1 weeks notice as i said you should.She has got away with this before but to be honest from the sounds of things you didnt listen to any advise that was given as you are working the 2nd week of your notice.

My question is, why ask for advise if you dont have the balls to actually do something about it.Stop being afraid because if you dont you will end up with a 10er after working 4 weeks notice by the sounds of things!

Also i reckon you actually want to work the 4 weeks aswell to suit yourslef as you can earn more money right up until the day you start college so you have to make a choice now.You know deep down that the 4 weeks money will help you in college aswell so there is no way you can deny this.

In summary,hunt her down,hand her a weeks notice although im not sure on the law now if u handed in 4 weeks notice if you can change it.Do not email or phone her as thats a waste of time and easy to avoid.Find her in person.Be confident in telling her you know about what happened in Jan to another girl and that your soliciotor has told you that you are not liable for the agency fees and that you expect to be paid in full on the day you leave including holiday pay(which u wont get but it makes her think you know what ur talking about) or else you will be dealing with my solictior.

seamus

imalegend, with all due respect that's not great advice.

If this does become a legal issue, then turning up at her boss's house to hand in her notice is at best an invasion of privacy.

There are only a few key things in this;

She has signed a contract that says six weeks (apparently).
Her boss has so far avoided giving her a copy a of the contract.
Her boss has avoided meeting with her to discuss resignation.
She has given in notice for four weeks, contrary to the six required by her contract.

Without physically seeing the contracts, there is nothing more that we can really draw from this. I agree, the boss sounds like a complete bully who relies on people being too afraid to stand up to her.

My advice is:

Write her a letter, reaffirming the fact that your four week notice period started last week and that you will be leaving on X date.
Mention that because she has thus far failed to provide you with a copy of your contract, you are going to assume that in accordance with employment law, you are not required to provide notice because you have been in full-time employment for less than 13 weeks. However as a gesture of good faith, you have provided four weeks notice, to give them adequate time to find a replacement.
Say that you expect to be paid in full for your four weeks service as no deductions may be made from your pay without your consent, as per section five of the Payment of Wages Act, 1991.

Sign it, seal it, and place it into her office (or somewhere else that she cannot miss it - her inbox?).
Send her an email with the same text.

Make a copy of both items and keep them for yourself. You don't have to formally meet with her to hand in your notice. She has avoided meeting with you, so this is sufficient.

If she takes money from your pay, you can make a complaint through the rights commissioner.

faceman

Excellent advise seamus. Best of luck schueys, let us know how it goes.

imalegend

seamus i agree my advice is hot handed but from what i make of it she is also looking to suit herself by working right up till starting college to create as much savings as possible for her year in college.

As she hasnt worked 13 weeks as far as i am aware 1 weeks notice is suffice no matter what the contract states.(i could be wrong in saying this)

No matter what you put in a letter or email here i forsee trouble happening here so i would finish up in a week and spend the other 2 weeks chasing the money she owes me that she wont pay me.But from the description of her she doesnt seem scared of the law as she knows some1 on 10 eruo an hour cant afford legal representation.

Your advice is perfect in a situation where the boss is a bit out of line but this lady seems crazy and cos its a tiny org she doesnt care about any employment law.

You could even ring the rights commisioners office or check out this page...it has all the law documents and other good info

http://www.lrc.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=234

seamus

imalegend wrote:

seamus i agree my advice is hot handed but from what i make of it she is also looking to suit herself by working right up till starting college to create as much savings as possible for her year in college.

Yeah, but you don't say that. Make it appear like you're trying to "do the right thing", and in the event that it does go to someone like the rights commissioner, you look like the good guy.

As she hasnt worked 13 weeks as far as i am aware 1 weeks notice is suffice no matter what the contract states.(i could be wrong in saying this)

You're bound to the contract that you signed, basically. If you don't have a contract then you don't have to give notice at all until you've served 13 weeks.

No matter what you put in a letter or email here i forsee trouble happening here so i would finish up in a week and spend the other 2 weeks chasing the money she owes me that she wont pay me.But from the description of her she doesnt seem scared of the law as she knows some1 on 10 eruo an hour cant afford legal representation.
Your advice is perfect in a situation where the boss is a bit out of line but this lady seems crazy and cos its a tiny org she doesnt care about any employment law.

Well I'm not so sure. There are many many small timers out there who are completely ignorant of the law and treat workers (particularly young or inexperienced ones) like dirt because they expect them to have no idea of their rights and more importantly - they expect these workers to be too afraid/lazy to bother fighting them.

My advice to write the letter was to partially to cover herself if it does have to go to the rights commissioner. If you look like the party who's made every attempt to be reasonable, then you instantly give yourself bonus points. If you try to fight bullying with bullying or block-headedness, then it looks like the two of are just trying to get one up on the other and you lose points with the commission.
The other function of the letter is to make it clear to the employer that you know your rights. Even if the employer doesn't know them, the fact that you've done any sort of research can turn the tables - and make the employer too scared/lazy to bother arguing with you. No employer is going to hire a solicitor to sort out a wage dispute with a minimum wage, part time earner.

schueys_girl

Hi guys thank you both for your input.

Can i just say trust me I am not working these 4 weeks to get the most money for going back to uni because honestly i am very worried i am not going to get it and as i have said before the job was and still is causing me sleepless nights so i am not very healthy or happy right now!! I am doing the 4 weeks notice because i said in my letter of resignation that i would do it...i have no problem fulfilling things that i have agreed to, the recent news of her not paying this girl in january has since cast doubts over it all however.

Thank you tho for commenting and for you advice. Yes you are right in some ways i am afriad because IF i dont get paid for these four weeks i cannot pay my car insurance...and i definetly cannot afford a trip to court or paying agency fees (even tho i have assurances on here that this wont happen - it would be just my luck that it did, and trust me, I do not have much money at all).

So this is why i am trying to do the right thing. I do agree that i do need to stand up for myself and both of your advices has made me see this. So thank you. I am going to write this letter to her and put it on the desk of the main nursery branch...as it will definetly get passed on to her this way. I will stand up for myself and i do appreciate both of your advice and support I will keep you updated and thank you very very much!

Big hugs xxx amy xxx