The VCR Bill and how it effects ROI airsofters

Fetch

Hi All,
Has anyone got any solid information on the VCR (violent crime reduction) bill coming in on October in UK/NI? Im specifically interested in how it will effect Irish airsofters.

I realise that it will make it illegal to own/import/sell replica firearms. I have also heard that a proviso has been put in for airsofters who will need to register at sites such as predator and be put on a registered database...

What im wondering is:
1) after october will I be able to buy AEGs from the uk?
2) will I be able to take my AEG/AEP up north/across the channel to a skirmish? will I need to be on this database to do so?
3) does anyone think there is a possibility that NI sites might not allow ROI players in order to distance themselves from people who may be 'smuggling' airsoft guns into NI?
4) What do we need to do here in the ROI to avoid this kind of blanket ban? With places like the gadget store already stocking spring guns it wont be long before some kid shoots a granny in the eye or someone tries to rob a post office with one... from what i can see the media scare mongering has already begun... the knee jerk reaction for politicians will most likely be to follow suit with the uk

liamo333

From the 1st of October 2007, the laws regarding airsoft guns are changing. This is a brief summary of those changes, more information can be found here: www.ukara.org.uk
If you are under 18 years of age, it will be illegal for you to buy an airsoft gun. It will also be illegal for anyone to sell one to you, whether you are a skirmisher or not.
Over 18s will have to prove that they are airsoft skirmishers. They can do this by taking out membership of an airsoft site which holds third-party liability insurance. In order to facilitate remote selling, UKARA the retailers organisation, has set up a database to which sites can submit their members details. Once a player is verified & on the database, any UKARA member can quickly check that a purchaser is entitled to buy an airsoft gun.
As a founder member of UKARA, Airsoft World are fully committed to this scheme and to abiding by the UKARA Code of Conduct.
Please note that in order to prevent fraudulent purchases, from the 1st of October we will only ship airsoft guns to the address registered in the users database record. (This does not include all orders placed BEFORE 1st October) If there is any delay in populating the database, we may request additional information to verify the delivery address.

Shiva

1) after october will I be able to buy AEGs from the uk?

Possibly...the general consensus is that once the guns are leaving the UK, the retailer can sell them. Although some retailers may decide not to sell to users outside of the UK, since they may still be liable to prosecution if the recipient is under 18 - they have no way to verify a users age.

2) will I be able to take my AEG/AEP up north/across the channel to a skirmish? will I need to be on this database to do so?

As the act is currently written, No, you can't. Its illegal to import an airsoft gun into the UK or NI. Import doesnt just mean "to sell" - it also means for personal use.

3) does anyone think there is a possibility that NI sites might not allow ROI players in order to distance themselves from people who may be 'smuggling' airsoft guns into NI?

That could well happen. I think if I ran an Airsoft site, I'd ban "foreign" players unless they were rentals.

4) What do we need to do here in the ROI to avoid this kind of blanket ban? With places like the gadget store already stocking spring guns it wont be long before some kid shoots a granny in the eye or someone tries to rob a post office with one... from what i can see the media scare mongering has already begun... the knee jerk reaction for politicians will most likely be to follow suit with the uk

Thats one for the IAA to look into.

Fetch

Thanks Shiva,
Guess I'll get a visit to predator with my own gear in before October...

gandalf

Fetch wrote:

Thanks Shiva,
Guess I'll get a visit to predator with my own gear in before October...

Yep same a same as me, looking at the 15th as the day to head up myself.

kdouglas

huh... never thought about how this would affect going across the border, definitely going to predator before it comes in.

ASI Casper

http://www.airsoftireland.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=8769&view=findpost&p=73819

This might help answer a few of your queries.

Evolute

Shiva wrote:

1) after october will I be able to buy AEGs from the uk?

Possibly...the general consensus is that once the guns are leaving the UK, the retailer can sell them. Although some retailers may decide not to sell to users outside of the UK, since they may still be liable to prosecution if the recipient is under 18 - they have no way to verify a users age.

2) will I be able to take my AEG/AEP up north/across the channel to a skirmish? will I need to be on this database to do so?

As the act is currently written, No, you can't. Its illegal to import an airsoft gun into the UK or NI. Import doesnt just mean "to sell" - it also means for personal use.

3) does anyone think there is a possibility that NI sites might not allow ROI players in order to distance themselves from people who may be 'smuggling' airsoft guns into NI?

That could well happen. I think if I ran an Airsoft site, I'd ban "foreign" players unless they were rentals.

4) What do we need to do here in the ROI to avoid this kind of blanket ban? With places like the gadget store already stocking spring guns it wont be long before some kid shoots a granny in the eye or someone tries to rob a post office with one... from what i can see the media scare mongering has already begun... the knee jerk reaction for politicians will most likely be to follow suit with the uk

Thats one for the IAA to look into.

Would members of the IAA be able to go with their equipment i wonder?

Hivemind187

Evolute wrote:

Would members of the IAA be able to go with their equipment i wonder?

Nope. The IAA members are still human beings (I know, amazing isnt it?) and therefore subject to the law. IAA members would still be importing illegal items from th republic to the North.

Evolute

Hivemind187 wrote:

Nope. The IAA members are still human beings (I know, amazing isnt it?) and therefore subject to the law. IAA members would still be importing illegal items from th republic to the North.

Fetch wrote:

I realise that it will make it illegal to own/import/sell replica firearms. I have also heard that a proviso has been put in for airsofters who will need to register at sites such as predator and be put on a registered database...

That is why i asked seening as the IAA is an orgainisation. Granted not a UK orgainisation but still ya know what i mean.

Hivemind187

Evolute wrote:

That is why i asked seening as the IAA is an orgainisation. Granted not a UK orgainisation but still ya know what i mean.

Yeah we were hoping it wouldnt be quite so ... punitive.

Best case scenario is the UK sites start offering rental options to guest players.

Fallschirmjager

Hivemind187 wrote:

Yeah we were hoping it wouldnt be quite so ... punitive.

Best case scenario is the UK sites start offering rental options to guest players.

bang goes the UK as an airsoft tourist site...keep in mind berget in sweden is running it for up to 1000 people at a time...

all we need now is a site in ireland that could run one to pick up the slack...there be a lot of money in dem there skirmishes...

Hivemind187

Fallschirmjager wrote:

bang goes the UK as an airsoft tourist site...keep in mind berget in sweden is running it for up to 1000 people at a time...

all we need now is a site in ireland that could run one to pick up the slack...there be a lot of money in dem there skirmishes...

You come up with a 200acre site and the money to get started and I'll hve your babies.:D

Fetch

Hivemind187 wrote:

Yeah we were hoping it wouldnt be quite so ... punitive.

Best case scenario is the UK sites start offering rental options to guest players.

Well thats the only option as far as I can see... rent an AEG up there... or have an AEG stored up north specifically for NI skirmishes... of course buying a set of guns for north and south is a pricey option

The problem with renting is that half the fun of airsoft is getting the gun that you like and servicing/modding it and then using it to kick ass... its not as much fun (still lots of fun though) when your using a gun thats not yours...

Hivemind187

Fetch wrote:

Well thats the only option as far as I can see... rent an AEG up there... or have an AEG stored up north specifically for NI skirmishes... of course buying a set of guns for north and south is a pricey option

The problem with renting is that half the fun of airsoft is getting the gun that you like and servicing/modding it and then using it to kick ass... its not as much fun (still lots of fun though) when your using a gun thats not yours...

Believe me Fetch I know what you mean.

For the time being however you will have to make do with doing that here in Ireland and in the European nations that hold games open to foriegn guests.

Its a bummer but thats the situation.

Fallschirmjager

Hivemind187 wrote:

You come up with a 200acre site and the money to get started and I'll hve your babies.:D

bawhahaha...hell if i could afford a 200 acre site...well i would do it to be honest (not the baby thing, too much of that on the fal thread!! LOL)...its a pity the army dont have the fake 'towns' we could use...thats what the uk guys do and the us ones...

Hivemind187

Fallschirmjager wrote:

bawhahaha...hell if i could afford a 200 acre site...well i would do it to be honest...its a pity the army dont have the fake 'towns' we could use...thats what the uk guys do and the us ones...

There is a shoot house system set up somewhere in Dublin that they train both the Rangers and the (laughable) ERU at.

Unfortunately we have about the same chance of being allowed to use that site as a paper dog has of chasing an asbestos cat through hell.

CrazyRabbit

Hivemind187 wrote:

There is a shoot house system set up somewhere in Dublin that they train both the Rangers and the (laughable) ERU at.

Unfortunately we have about the same chance of being allowed to use that site as a paper dog has of chasing an asbestos cat through hell.

Well we could help them out with their training....I think we are marginally better than the static paper targets they are probably using.

NakedDex

I wonder could a transport permit system be set up. Cross border/water travel to skirmishes happens rarely for most people here anyway so getting a permit thats approved by police forces in the UK and the Gardai for one use with the transported articles listed on it would seem a logical option.

For example, you want to go to Pred sometime next year, you apply for a permit to the police of the country you're going to travel to, in this case PSNI, with a list of the items you intend to bring along with their rated fps/energy level. They then approve or decline each item and give you an email copy of the permit to be signed at your Garda station upon presentation and inspection of each approved article to be transported.
They may charge a nominal fee for this or may require you register a copy of your ID with them for security reasons.
The permit would be a single use and would need to be signed off by a police officer from the country to be traveled to after the items to be transported were inspected by said officer. This officer would then give a "return permit" allowing the goods to travel back in exactly the same way.
This way both both authorities know the items would be in transit cross border and specifically which items were in transit. There would be a start point and a finish point in paperwork and the inspections by both authorities at each point ensure all goods arrive and leave.

It's just an idea I had.

Hivemind187

NakedDex wrote:

I wonder could a transport permit system be set up. Cross border/water travel to skirmishes happens rarely for most people here anyway so getting a permit thats approved by police forces in the UK and the Gardai for one use with the transported articles listed on it would seem a logical option.

For example, you want to go to Pred sometime next year, you apply for a permit to the police of the country you're going to travel to, in this case PSNI, with a list of the items you intend to bring along with their rated fps/energy level. They then approve or decline each item and give you an email copy of the permit to be signed at your Garda station upon presentation and inspection of each approved article to be transported.
They may charge a nominal fee for this or may require you register a copy of your ID with them for security reasons.
The permit would be a single use and would need to be signed off by a police officer from the country to be traveled to after the items to be transported were inspected by said officer. This officer would then give a "return permit" allowing the goods to travel back in exactly the same way.
This way both both authorities know the items would be in transit cross border and specifically which items were in transit. There would be a start point and a finish point in paperwork and the inspections by both authorities at each point ensure all goods arrive and leave.

It's just an idea I had.

Thats not a bad idea at all Dex and I'll bring to the attention of the other committee members and see what they think.

It would be a difficult thing to organise though because each person would have to apply for their own individual permit and specify the exact equipment they would be bringing.

I can foresee a problem where the cops will say that they are being asked to sign a permit which effectively allows you to break the law.

Its still a good idea and I'll give it some thought.

CrazyRabbit

I'm curious how they plan to enforce the law banning imports. Doesn't seem possible IMHO. What's to stop any of us from driving up north to Pred with a boot full of AEG's? There is no customs or border checks etc.

Now, I am in no way suggesting that anyone break the law by importing AEG's into Northern Ireland.

Another poorly thought out law.

NakedDex

Well real steel firearms are subject to similar transport embargo but are exempt when issued a transport permit. Now I know comparisons should not be made between RS and airsoft, and I'm not drawing any at all believe me, but I figured if a system like that is in place then perhaps it's model could be used for transport of AEG's. The same goes for things like hazardous chemicals. Technically you can't move them "off site" without a permit allowing you to do so. Particularly across international borders. In this case both sender and receiver will inspect all items and sign off to the contents manifest.

Something else that could be looked at as an added security is something used in transport of many aircraft parts and hazardous materials, a security seal tag. Seems like a simple thing but if the Gardai, for example, put a seal tag around the handle of the carry case or connecting zips of a soft case. That way, when it arrived at the other end, the PSNI or UK police would know the case had not been added to in any way that would violate the permit while in transit.

Hivemind187

NakedDex wrote:

Well real steel firearms are subject to similar transport embargo but are exempt when issued a transport permit. Now I know comparisons should not be made between RS and airsoft, and I'm not drawing any at all believe me, but I figured if a system like that is in place then perhaps it's model could be used for transport of AEG's. The same goes for things like hazardous chemicals. Technically you can't move them "off site" without a permit allowing you to do so. Particularly across international borders. In this case both sender and receiver will inspect all items and sign off to the contents manifest.

Something else that could be looked at as an added security is something used in transport of many aircraft parts and hazardous materials, a security seal tag. Seems like a simple thing but if the Gardai, for example, put a seal tag around the handle of the carry case or connecting zips of a soft case. That way, when it arrived at the other end, the PSNI or UK police would know the case had not been added to in any way that would violate the permit while in transit.

Hmmm, this is interesting.

do you have any resource material I could take a look at (web links, .PDF's etc)?

NakedDex

Nothing to hand because I'm work right now, I'm not even sure I have anything at home anymore. I had some info on it from a training manual when I was doing my aircraft apprenticeship but I threw that out about a year ago.
I'll see what I can find anyway

Hivemind187

NakedDex wrote:

Nothing to hand because I'm work right now, I'm not even sure I have anything at home anymore. I had some info on it from a training manual when I was doing my aircraft apprenticeship but I threw that out about a year ago.
I'll see what I can find anyway

Brilliant, any help on this is much appreciated.

Shiva

Hivemind187 wrote:

Brilliant, any help on this is much appreciated.

I dont want to be a pessimist, cos that is an excellent idea, Dex...

But the permit scheme and bag-tagging is probably already written into the law with regard to RS, and there are provisions made for its use. The VCR Act (not Bill...Act...its been passed) doesn't have those exceptions written into it, so the Gardai or PSNI can't arbitrarily set up that kind of system with regard to Airsoft - its still breaking the law as its written.

And from what Frenchie on the ASI forum was saying, its very unlikely that anything will be changed in the Act in the short term

Having said all that though - it definitely *is* a good idea for Hivemind and the commitee to pull together some kind of suggested process just in case things down here follow the same course and we find ourselves restricted.

Hivemind187

Shiva wrote:

I dont want to be a pessimist, cos that is an excellent idea, Dex...

But the permit scheme and bag-tagging is probably already written into the law with regard to RS, and there are provisions made for its use. The VCR Act (not Bill...Act...its been passed) doesn't have those exceptions written into it, so the Gardai or PSNI can't arbitrarily set up that kind of system with regard to Airsoft - its still breaking the law as its written.

And from what Frenchie on the ASI forum was saying, its very unlikely that anything will be changed in the Act in the short term

Having said all that though - it definitely *is* a good idea for Hivemind and the commitee to pull together some kind of suggested process just in case things down here follow the same course and we find ourselves restricted.

Well put Shiva,

The IAA committee are working on a number of things and we are having many (often heated) discussions regarding the approach to take.

(Personal opinion begins here)The tightness of the VCR was a little suprising (to me anyway) and I personaly think its over kill. However, it is the law and if the UK big jobs think its necessary who am I to argue (personal opinion ends here).

Right now the best thing the IAA can do is get itself up and running with active members, promoting the sport and bringing it to the attention of the government and the public in a positive fashion.

The best thing players can do to help us is what they have been doing all along. Give us feedback, ideas, information and above all be responsible with their equipment.

Remember the best defence we have for Airsoft right now is that we are a legitimate sport played by responsible adults and are self regulating.

ASI Casper

Shiva wrote:

But the permit scheme and bag-tagging is probably already written into the law with regard to RS, and there are provisions made for its use. The VCR Act (not Bill...Act...its been passed) doesn't have those exceptions written into it, so the Gardai or PSNI can't arbitrarily set up that kind of system with regard to Airsoft - its still breaking the law as its written.

And from what Frenchie on the ASI forum was saying, its very unlikely that anything will be changed in the Act in the short term

Exactly. The law is fairly clear on that point. Unless foreign nationals outside the UK can register on the database or at least some sort of visitors permit system is setup, then you're scuppered. The VCR Act itself is unlikely to be changed anytime soon. However, exemptions, exceptions, regulations and so forth can be amended in at any time by the secretary of state.

Hivemind187 wrote:

The IAA committee are working on a number of things and we are having many (often heated) discussions regarding the approach to take.

The IAGB would love to hear them. There's a meeting scheduled for next Sat to discuss the VCRA and it's implications.

I have a couple of ideas on how to approach the problem which I won't go into now. Mainly due to being ill & busy.

RC car fanatic

im not clear on ANY of this but does this mean we cant like buy aegs anymore or am i wrong?

liamo333

No, but there might be complications with buying from england.

chalky

RC car fanatic wrote:

im not clear on ANY of this but does this mean we cant like buy aegs anymore or am i wrong?

No, The VCR Bill applies to the UK only.
However it'll probably affect you if you want to buy from the UK, or play in the UK.

EDIT: beaten to it

RC car fanatic

cheers

ED E

Well, exporting them i cant see why they would need to restrict it. Anyway we have BFSL now as an ASG Dealer so AEGS are mostly covered. The problem is Pistols snipers and other less common markers. Other gear can still be bought.

ASI Casper

It won't affect you if you want to buy from the UK. Or from Hong Kong or anywhere else.

It will however, affect you if you plan to travel into the UK with your airsoft guns.

Spitfire666

pistols and snipers are available through BFSL aswell. its not just aeg's.

Mark_Sc

I'd say alot of orders pass through england... there might be some delays...

Dar

Mark_Sc wrote:

I'd say alot of orders pass through england... there might be some delays...

Nah, HM Customs wouldn't inspect packages that are only passing through the country.

RC car fanatic

cool:)

Lemming

Here's an interesting question ...

what happens if you order something from a UK vendor, and it needs returned for repair or what-not after Oct 1st?

N.O.I.P.

Was just reading the Last strike thread and I had a thought, what happens if somebody from the UK orders and pays for an AEG from HK or elsewhere now but it doesn't arrive in the UK until after the VCR takes effect.

Assuming it was allowed straight into the country then anyone wanting to head to Last Strike etc could "sell" (€1 AEG anyone?) their AEGs to Casper (just an example, I doubt we could trust him ) and then deliver them in person. Of course once the AEGs arrive the buyer would decide that they weren't in great condition and the sale would fall through, money is refunded and the AEGs come home. You could of course take in a game prior to delivery

*Returns to working on a solution that has a chance in hell of actually working*

Evolute

CrazyRabbit wrote:

I'm curious how they plan to enforce the law banning imports. Doesn't seem possible IMHO. What's to stop any of us from driving up north to Pred with a boot full of AEG's? There is no customs or border checks etc.

Now, I am in no way suggesting that anyone break the law by importing AEG's into Northern Ireland.

Another poorly thought out law.

Generally law abiding skirmish sites like Predator Etc. Would not allow you to play with your aegs as they would be classed as illegal not the best thought out law but its expected that all involved abide by it

Hivemind187

N.O.I.P. wrote:

Was just reading the Last strike thread and I had a thought, what happens if somebody from the UK orders and pays for an AEG from HK or elsewhere now but it doesn't arrive in the UK until after the VCR takes effect.

Assuming it was allowed straight into the country then anyone wanting to head to Last Strike etc could "sell" (€1 AEG anyone?) their AEGs to Casper (just an example, I doubt we could trust him ) and then deliver them in person. Of course once the AEGs arrive the buyer would decide that they weren't in great condition and the sale would fall through, money is refunded and the AEGs come home. You could of course take in a game prior to delivery

*Returns to working on a solution that has a chance in hell of actually working*

In the name of the Holy Marui thats a sneaky one

I can see it now, feck the beef tribunal we'll have the BB tribunal.

N.O.I.P.

Aye years of software testing and my own curiosity/stupidity (curious stupidity?) have left me with the innate ability to break just about anything (before he claims otherwise this does not include Oisin, he managed that one all on his own)

ambro25

Well, NOIP, you do know that there's nothing more dangerous than a programmer with a screwdriver in hand, don't you?

cherubaul

To me the VCRA means that we have to be members of a skirmish site i.e registered to a site in order to be able to avail of a specific defence. Thus anyone with loyalty cards etc. are covered as they are known to a skirmish site and thus their presence with airsoft guns are justified and able to avail of the specific defence of skirmishing.

A membership card to a southern site will thus prove that we engage in airsofting in our own country and thus reinforce that we have a background in the sport.

as for the importing of airsoft guns as said once their is access to the specific defence there is a reason for the RIF to cross the border. As it is there for the purpose of skirmishing not sale or thuggery. a dated invitation from the site in question stating the loadout you intend to travel with can be used as proof of your right to avail of the specific defence. if they find that you are suspect all they need do is ring the site for conformation.

once you cross a border you are subject to the laws of that state but also must be afforded the same exceptions as those who reside there. in otherwords to deny a person the protection of the law due to their nationality is discrimination. The law is in place to protect all people inside the countrys borders.

This is just my 2 cents on the topic i believe that NONEX also holds similar views to this and he's very in touch with these situations.

And just wondering what the IAA intends to do to ensure inter state airsofting i assume that there is a letter being drafted to their UK counterparts and indeed the relevent Northern Irish governing bodies to ensure that the privilege of using some excellent sites is not lost to us.

Anyone else have any other views as i do believe this topic needs its own thread to be properly addressed.

kinkstr

cherubaul wrote:

s i do believe this topic needs its own thread to be properly addressed.

It does doesnt it.

o1s1n

kinkstr wrote:

It does doesnt it.

Indeed it does.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055143310

I'll merge this with that in a sec.

Edit: Merged.

Spitfire666

but the airsoft sites need to be credited ones. ones wth specific insurence and that are registered. i doubt that ROI sites will be able to get registered under the UK/NI laws.

the law also doesnt state the word import, it says "...bring into the country..."

Hivemind187

Spitfire666 wrote:

but the airsoft sites need to be credited ones. ones wth specific insurence and that are registered. i doubt that ROI sites will be able to get registered under the UK/NI laws.

the law also doesnt state the word import, it says "...bring into the country..."

Actually they need to be registered with the UKARA which is only accepting UK applicants,

Make no mistake, for the time being the VCR has all but made UK Airsoft a closed sport.

The IAA will make an official statement of our position regarding the VCR in the next news letter.

Spitfire666

yes, and you can only register your site if you have the insurance thats recognised.

Hivemind187

Spitfire666 wrote:

yes, and you can only register your site if you have the insurance thats recognised.

Jebus, they didnt make it easy did they?