Krav Maga

Has anyone done a course in this?
Any opinions?

O'Leprosy

dursey wrote:

Has anyone done a course in this?
Any opinions?

Well, myself ( and Roper ? )are well known on the boards for our admiration of the style. Reading a recent article in the Irish Fighter it stated " Learn how to submit an attacker in seconds not minutes" - obviously a swipe at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Weren't the Gracies lucky that no Krav Maga fellas came into their gym when they offered something like $100,000 if anyone could come in and beat one of them back in the 80's. But in KM's words “Krav Maga is not a sport. We learn how to make cuts, to press peoples’ eyes, break fingers and kick to the groin.” Be afraid, be VERY afraid.

As the article in Metroeireann stated by the instructor - Bednarski told me that he had tested these moves in real life situations on more than a few occasions. “I was living in Poland in a dangerous block, around dangerous people,” he said. “They would often attack using sticks, sharp objects or bottles if they were drinking. But in all the times I was attacked I never had a fight face-to-face with just one person.” Bednarski, who has been living in Ireland since March of last year, added: “I was boxing at the time but it didn’t defend against multiple attackers or against people with weapons. It was useless.”

Extraordinary, " never had a fight face-to-face with just one person. ". Most MA's, ( and I'd put good old fashioned boxing up there as one of the most effective ), would hope that they could train you to defend your self against one attacker around your own phyiscal size and you'd be doing ok, but Krav Maga must be MMA multiplied 4 or 5 times.

So if want the WORLD-FAMOUS method of SELF DEFENCE, because of their ability to SMASH, BATTER, FRACTURE, CRUSH, DISMEMBER, CRACK, DISEMBOWEL, CRIPPLE, SNAP and HARM - then Krav Maga is your only man

Michael O Leary

Hi Dursey,

O'Leporsy is a nice guy but doesn't like Israelies and is quite pro Palestian.

Hi Joe,:)

Have not been down in a while but hope to get back Thursday week on a regular basis as my circumstances have changed.

Regards,

Michael.

O'Leprosy

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Dursey,

O'Leporsy is a nice guy but doesn't like Israelies and is quite pro Palestian.

Hi Joe,:)

Have not been down in a while but hope to get back Thursday week on a regular basis as my circumstances have changed.

Regards,

Michael.

" quite pro Palestian ". Well, ya got me there Micheal . Still, the 'extravagent' claims of Krav Maga, well, lets say, make me a bit critical to say the least.

As for the swipe I alleged they had made at BJJ/MMA grappling, well when you watch 2 experienced BJJers and they roll for several minutes before a submission is gained, it's because 2 EXPERIENCED grapplers can roll for 10/15 minutes despite technique after technique been tried. It's their experience which allows them see what's coming and apply a counter/reversal/sweep etc. " Unless your opponent is familiar with these moves, he will most likely not see any danger until it is too late. " as the Gracies put it. And they are grappling with a 100% NON COMPLIANCE, they are physically and mentally doing everything possible to avoid the other fella getting an advantageous position and to then try and apply a submission hold.

Plus guys who roll all the time become conditioned to endure the pain/pressure barrier much better than a man from a non grappling background. Put an non grappler up against an experienced grappler and see how quick the non grappler will be on his behind and submitted in seconds. This has all been discussed before, early UFC's etc. I'm not having a go at you Micheal, but the extravagant claims of you know what style.

Running Bing

Wanted to do this for yonks but I dont like the idea of just doing a 10 week course or whatever.


Id much rather go to a weekly thing and get better and better. Is anyone running anything like that now in Ireland? I dont mind the money as long as its not extortionate!

kravist

Yes..i am!
Come to Castlebar. We train Tuesdays and Thursdays, September to July. Take a break for late July and August .
O'Leprosy hasn't a clue but still doesn't stop him from criticising something he obviously knows nothing about. Still empty vessels make the most noise.
Krav Maga is a self defence system, not a sport. Therefore, it doesnt prepare one for rolling about for 10 minutes. Fights rarely last more than 20 seconds..!!!BJJ, MMA etc dont permit, headbutts, groin strikes etc etc. SO contrary to O'Leprosy's opinion, they ARE NOT doing everything possible!!Therefore BJJ, MMA are artifical and in the self defence context..extremly limited. They never approach a multiple attacker scenario nor do they train against weapons. It boils down to what youre lookng for...The physical conditioning of MMA athletes which i accept is fantastic..or the murky world of real life self defence, where head butts etc are par for the course.

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

I think it is worth noting that the founder of Krav Maga was a accomplished boxer and grappler. However when pondering the problem of how to defend his community against violent attacks he found that the sports of boxing and wrestling were not enough. Hence the evolution to Krav Maga.

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

paxo

dursey wrote:

Has anyone done a course in this?
Any opinions?

Dursey
I have trained in Krav since 2002. I found it to be an effective system. It is relatively easy to learn, uses simple straight forward techniques. uses lots of pressure drills. Has a focus on training in disadvantaged positions, ie darkness, outside etc. A strong focus on wearon defence. At higher levels there is sparring, with fairly heavy contact against one or more opponents.

However in regard to a course I think its fine to get a sense of the system I am doubtfull if it would provide anykind of lasting or meaningfull skill.I trained from 2-4 times per week. So in that way it is no diffferent from any fighting art, you have to put the work in to become competent and train under a good instructor.
Regards
Paxo

Nothingcompares

It's stupid to suggest that something that covers more material but in a bad way is better than something that covers slightly lesser material in a superior way.

What makes MMA training so effective for "self-defense" is not just because it mixes techniques from Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing and Muay Thai and more MMA specific techniques but it takes the training methods from these ALIVE combat sports.

I wouldn't be worried about meeting Kravist on the street and getting poked in the eye or grabbed by the balls, I'd be worried about getting punched in the head by a boxer who hits damn hard.

The original poster as a newbie to martial arts won't appreciate the different between krav maga and MMA but after training in both environments should be able to tell, very quickly, the different between functional training methods and useless training methods. Stay away from Krav Maga it's for people with issues.

kravist

Nothingcompares wrote:

What makes MMA training so effective for "self-defense" is not just because it mixes techniques from Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing and Muay Thai and more MMA specific techniques but it takes the training methods from these ALIVE combat sports.

I wouldn't be worried about meeting Kravist on the street and getting poked in the eye or grabbed by the balls, I'd be worried about getting punched in the head by a boxer who hits damn hard.

The original poster as a newbie to martial arts won't appreciate the different between krav maga and MMA but after training in both environments should be able to tell, very quickly, the different between functional training methods and useless training methods. Stay away from Krav Maga it's for people with issues.

I've seen rubbish posts in my time but this is about as bad as they get!!

Of course you wouldn't be worried about me "Kravist" grabbing your balls, i have no intention of ever doing so, much and all as you might want me to!!


Your perceptoin of Krav Maga is so far off the mark, it makes me question your knowledge about any martial art...empty vessels make the most noise!!!
Yes MMA takes these methods from Alive combat SPORTS!! But remember these are SPORTS, with rules, THERE ARE NO RULES ON THE STREETS!!!
NO HEADBUTTS, ETC , i've listed them before. To me a useless training method in terms of self defence is one that fails to allow for groin strikes, all types of elbows etc etc. Must i mention weapons again?

And for the record, i do not have issues with MMA, BJJ etc. To me they are fantastic sports, with excellent training and conditioning! The compeditors in these sports are in peak physical condition!
Anyone who wants to train in them, good luck to them, i wish i personally had more oppertunity.
The origional post was from a newbie..who cares?? My guess is that Nothingcompares has never trained in a proper Krav Maga environment..or probably even any proper environment. He seems to pre suppose ones experiences, Thats talent..or maybe delusion! SO i'll leave this post safe in the knowledge that i'll probably be banned, considering that one daren't criticise MMA or BJJ or any of their fans here on boards.
I leave my future in the lap of the Gods..self appointed as they may be!

BLUNT

To say that a boxer couldnt befend himself on the street is insane,some of the best people with there heads are boxers,sayen BJJ players dont know street is insane too as parts of Brasil are tuff places ie "anything goes"...I roll with some top BJJ players in London ( from Brasil ) and they can very easily use there head or grab your swingers if they want too,same with Rusian Sambo guys play with a couple of them.When you play with the higher end of the sports game..be it Muay Thai,Boxen,Sambo,Judo,Wrestling or BJJ your more than ready to be street ready.A lot of these commando arts do live in the land of make believe or think there 007.....I think every one can learn from each other but to knock a boxer,be he a pro and your just....asken for trouble...usen the head is part of his game..............same as a lot of S.E Asia'en teachers who say that they train blade work and put other sport arts down but the only blade they've ever came up against is a rubber one,like what I've seen used in Krav Maga class's....along with toy AK47'z ??????

Roper

I've been named here so I'd better clarify my own opinions lest they get chucked in with someone elses.

I have no objection to people training Krav Maga, I am neither pro nor anti-Palestinian, I neither pro nor anti-Israel. All I can say is my own reading of the people I've met, the training methods I've seen and the mindset I've experienced in terms of Krav Maga.

Firstly, and this is a broad generalisation- in my experience, there is an inverse relationship between fitness levels and "deadliness". That is to say that the deadlier the art, the more unfit the practitioners.

Secondly, on a note of skill- without the ability to hold someone in place for a few seconds, how do you do any groin strikes, eye gouges etc? The answer is, you can't, not without some skill in the clinch range.

If someone pins you down in the "street", how do you escape? Is it different to a wrestling, Sambo or BJJ escape? How can it be? What would be the point in inventing new "street" escapes when there are people around the world practising day after day on how to get out of pins and holds. The BJJ escape would remain the same, the danger level would be higher on the street.

What is the difference between wanting to elbow (as in Muay Thai) a guy in a ring and elbow a guy on Henry Street?

Kravist,
I'm sure you're a nice bloke, ball twisting tendencies aside and I'm sure where you're living in Connaught is like Escape From New York, or perhaps its less popular sequel, Escape From LA, but to be frank, I don't see the point in your posts. At best, I can sum the argument like this:
1. I respect how fit and skilled MMA fighters are but the result of those fights would be different if you could strike to the groin.
2. Being able to fight on the ground is all fine and dandy but what if you get taken down onto broken glass with a guy's teeth clamped around your scrotum
3. What if more than one guy attacks you.

1. How long would you give yourself in a street fight against an Irish pro fighter, groin strikes allowed or not? The skills required are the same, the rules change.
2. Biting people isn't allowed in boxing or combat sports so they are instantly useless in a streetfight is the basic summation of that. To expand on your point, hitting people really hard like boxers do every day is useless in a streetfight, being able to choke people like a bjjer is useless in a streetfight. Yeah?
3. Fair point but what if more than one guy attacks YOU? How many eye strikes can you do per minute and how many guys have you actually stopped, for real, in training with an eye gouge or other "banned" technique. Let me guess, none, too dangerous to train.

Michael O Leary

kravist wrote:

Therefore BJJ, MMA are artifical and in the self defence context..extremly limited. They never approach a multiple attacker scenario nor do they train against weapons. It boils down to what youre lookng for...The physical conditioning of MMA athletes which i accept is fantastic..or the murky world of real life self defence, where head butts etc are par for the course.

Hi Kravist,:)

Just playing the devil’s advocate but one thing that you might recognise in favour of BJJ/MT/MMA, et al is that it is very hard to fake competence in it. Impostors are found out immediately. However it seems that in the murky world that you and I live in, some people can get quite far in Krav Maga and Wing Tsun and still be crap.

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

kmick

A friend of mine trains in Krav Maga and I think it has some very good concepts.
1) Krav Maga is a defensive art. It is designed to help you survive in a situation where you would normally be badly hurt or killed.
2) Its first premise is that in all scenarios you run for your life. You run and you run and you dont look back until you are caught or cornered.
3) In this scenario where it is fight or be seriously injured you fight - but you fight so dirty and so ferociuosly without mercy that your attacker is scared away or seriously hurt in the shortest possible time. If the chance arises to run again within that time you do.

So here is my opinion for all you my dik is bigger than yours brigade and I know one or two of you. Krav Maga has a place. It is not an art of respect, poise, classiness and beauty or fitness. It is teaching non-street fighters how to be a street fighter simple as that. if you try and compare it to a sport you are barking up the wrong tree.

Michael O Leary

kmick wrote:

A friend of mine trains in Krav Maga and I think it has some very good concepts.
1) Krav Maga is a defensive art. It is designed to help you survive in a situation where you would normally be badly hurt or killed.
2) Its first premise is that in all scenarios you run for your life. You run and you run and you dont look back until you are caught or cornered.
3) In this scenario where it is fight or be seriously injured you fight - but you fight so dirty and so ferociuosly without mercy that your attacker is scared away or seriously hurt in the shortest possible time. If the chance arises to run again within that time you do.

So here is my opinion for all you my dik is bigger than yours brigade and I know one or two of you. Krav Maga has a place. It is not an art of respect, poise, classiness and beauty or fitness. It is teaching non-street fighters how to be a street fighter simple as that. if you try and compare it to a sport you are barking up the wrong tree.

Hi kmick,

That is a very good summation.

I think one of the main objections that some people have with Krav Maga is the idea that you can turn anyone into a killer with a few classes but this is down to advertising and it seems American advertising in particular. I have looked at Kravist’s website and it seems fairly level headed and responsible.

I think it is important to separate the advertising from the art. Krav Maga, Wing Tsun, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or martial arts in general may or may not be full of a$$holes but it should not impact on what the individual gets out of his/her chosen activity.

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

Tim_Murphy

However it seems that in the murky world that you and I live in, some people can get quite far in Krav Maga and Wing Tsun and still be crap.

Why do you think this is and what do you think it says about what you do?

I did a little bit of door work a few months ago during a very busy weekend in Killarney. We had a lot of hassle, there was a lot of incidents. Granted I wasn't on THE STREET for most of it but strangely enough my 'sport' MA training proved very very useful. It was almost as if the delivery systems remained the same.

cowzerp

i've boxed since i was a kid and when in a street fight have stuck my finger under someones eye who grappled me to the ground, i was only 15, he was in excruciating pain as i squeezed his eyeball, then done a bit of g n p!! i was attacked by the way.

also have used head butts if the opportunity arose, and threw kicks if they felt the thing to do-not often though, The point being-boxing muay thai and mma are real fighting systems and without rules these people are even more dangerous-a bjj fighter could take you down and poke the eyes out of you if they where that way inclined-when i throw a punch, i can make it a jab of my finger in the eye-and a thai boxer can kick you in the nuts if necessary-the fact is all these are skllful and practised enough that they could do it when the going gets tough.

dunkamania

I always find the multiple attacker arguement amusing.

If a KM practitioner were to come of 2nd best against a mma'er, how would he/she hope to fair any better against more than one mma'er.:D

Michael O Leary

dunkamania wrote:

I always find the multiple attacker arguement amusing.

If a KM practitioner were to come of 2nd best against a mma'er, how would he/she hope to fair any better against more than one mma'er.:D

Hi dunkmania,

Krav Maga does not teach you how to fight against MMA'ers, single or multiple. I imagine (if it is like Wing Tsun) that it teaches you what to do if confronted by more than one opponent. Run. If you cannot run then it teaches you what to do to your opponents to give you a chance to escape which might include using an improvised weapon. I don't imagine it shows you how to beat up multiple opponents and certainly not multiple MMA opponents.

Just because I (for example) cannot beat Randy Couture in a fight does not mean I cannot defend myself against a few gobshltes. I have been attacked by 3 guys at one in the morning, took the kicks in the head, fought on and they ended up running away. This is very different from a competition where you pace yourself more, use more strategy, know your opponent, engage in feinting, etc.

I am not saying MMA is no good for self-defence. I am just pointing out why Krav Maga and Wing Tsun train a different way.

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

O'Leprosy

BJJ RULES AND THAT'S IT - NO FURTHER DISCUSSION

( Sorry Barry, I hope I didn't misrepresent your opinions, don't take me too serious, must drop up to your new gym )

Michael O Leary

O'Leprosy wrote:

BJJ RULES AND THAT'S IT - NO FURTHER DISCUSSION

Well I think it is great.:)

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

O'Leprosy

O'Leprosy wrote:

BJJ RULES AND THAT'S IT - NO FURTHER DISCUSSION

Michael O Leary wrote:

Well I think it is great.:)

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

I'm so untypical of a BJJer when it comes to grappling

DAVE_K

it's funny somebody comes on here and asks a simple question about a style other than BJJ/MMA and you kids turn it into a rant about BJJ and MMA......NOBODY MENTIONED BJJ/MMA!!!! D'ya get it?

I've done BJJ/MMA up in NG for a while and while I was no great shakes it was great and i did feel a much more confident fighter - one of the reasons I felt like this was because of the number of "fights/rolls" I ended up doing every week. i.e. lots of practice, made me feel more confident and I didn't feel as if the legs would start knocking when faced with some guy wanting to beat the bejaysus out of me, because it was happening 4 nights a week.

I'm in no position to say it is any better than KM because I've never done KM.

I know this though - if you gave me the choice on the street of either getting

a) a kick in the nuts
b) a punch

Personally I'd take the punch because I might have some chance of carrying on - whereas I know if I got a kick in the nuts i'd be finished.

Anyway kravist, have you started training again yet?

I want to give it a lash

HammerHeadGym

I've done both.
MMA is better.
It left me better equiped to deal with 'real' situations on 'the street' and left me in better mental and physical shape too. Also, the eye gouge and cock punch argument is weak as on the aforementioned street the MMA guy can also lash the goolies off you.
And Roper, you have such an asshole personality that makes me hate your guts. Although I can't stay mad at you for long, you handsome bastard.

cowzerp

DAVE_K wrote:

I know this though - if you gave me the choice on the street of either getting

a) a kick in the nuts
b) a punch

Personally I'd take the punch because I might have some chance of carrying on - whereas I know if I got a kick in the nuts i'd be finished.

im not being funny but i've been hit in the nuts loads of times and you can blank out the pain if necessary-for instance-1 time i blocked a free kick with my balls! and the ball fell to 1 of there players, i chased after him won the ball and passed it off to 1 of my team, when the ball was long gone i grabbed my balls and thought that was sore-if someone wants to hurt you your not going to drop because of sore nuts unless your a heartless git, its a big myth-pain is all in the head and some people drop at the slightest knock-thats not physical but mental.

paxo

dursey wrote:

Has anyone done a course in this?
Any opinions?

The guy asked a simple question and he gets a my dad can beat your dad arguement. I have trained in Krav and posted what I considered a reasonable summary of my experiences. Kravist, who is a Krav instructor also posted his opinion. As an instructor I would consider it reasonable that he was pro Krav

If the question had been about training in MMA and asking for an opinion I would not have responded as I do not train in MMA and therefore do not feel that I have the experience to allow me to put forward any kind of informed opinion.

If you feel the need to knock a system or style at least do so from a basic knowledge and some experience of the system

Finally I find all this Krav V MMA in a street fight very amuseing. Fights or assaults happen in all kinds of places and for all kind of reasons.The only thing I have ever done in this type of situation is survive
Regards
Paxo

Roper

I've been hit in the nuts plenty of times and it only stopped me once- at last years MMA League (I'm sure everyone remembers that) and that was only because one of them travelled North to stomach country.

Anyway, I would say your statement depends on who is doing the punching/kicking. I'd sooner get a kick in the nuts off a boxer and a punch in the face off a TKDer given the option. Or actually, now that I think of it, a punch in the face from a bowls player and a kick in the stones from a 75 year old with arthritis.

Dave,
I love you too,
Barry

Michael O Leary

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Why do you think this is and what do you think it says about what you do?

Hi Tim,

The reason why “some” Wing Tsun people are crap and I imagine “some” Krav Maga people are also is that performance is harder to measure objectively whereas with MMA/MT/BJJ it can be easier. I guy wins, end of story.

Arts which are more self-defence orientated recognise there are more variables/situational factors in a “street” fight and train accordingly and spend less time trying to “outbox” their opponent with feinting, strategy, etc.

For example the Gracies class their Jiu-Jitsu as primarily a self-defence system (does this mean they are preying for paranoid people?) , albeit one that you can use for sport. Therefore they also train defences against weapons. However I imagine the training for this has less sparring as it is difficult to incorporate weapons into your overall game. I would imagine that the Gracies train against weapons the way Wing Tsun and Krav Maga train self-defence in general.

I feel that if you only include in your art those elements that can be trained full speed/power/resistance then you are missing out on a lot and are “throwing out the baby with the bathwater”. So therefore progress with these other elements that cannot be trained full resistance is less easy to measure and sometimes people slip through the net.

What does it say about what I do? Just that I have to be diligent in my training and teaching, be very critical in what I do and analyse everything.

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

Roper

Michael O Leary wrote:

I feel that if you only include in your art those elements that can be trained full speed/power/resistance then you are missing out on a lot and are “throwing out the baby with the bathwater”. So therefore progress with these other elements that cannot be trained full resistance is less easy to measure and sometimes people slip through the net.

Hi Michael,
I think we've been down this road before but I think you missed the point about "Aliveness" and how most combat sports, and I suppose specifically thos of us with SBG, train.

It's not about training with "full speed/power/resistance", If I went like that on my sparring partners I'd run out of them pretty quickly! It's about intelligent, progressive drilling and a commitment to the core fundamentals of each range as opposed to the stuff that can be grafted on to that base.

BJJ seems to be the most obvious reference point since you've done a bit of that yourself. Getting back to another point I made earlier about escapes, the best mount escape I've ever learned is elbow escape. It's what I try first anytime I get mounted and I have a good deal of success with it in BJJ. What changes when I train MMA? Nothing, except it's much harder because I have to worry about the guy submitting me AND punching me in the face. What changes in the street? Nothing, except it's harder again because I have to worry about the guy punching me, submitting me, his mate coming over and kicking me etc.

Every time I've sparred with someone who came from a "self defence" background be it Krav, Kenpo or otherwise, they've had very little appreciable skill in one of these ranges. Thats a broad generalisation as some have had a bit of decent stand-up, but not to the level of boxers for example. None have had any usable clinch or ground skills. So when I hear that after training KM or otherwise you can defeat any attacker, maim them etc. I am skeptical as I haven't seen any of the fundamentals of stand-up, clinch or ground in these arts yet.

Maybe I'm totally wrong though, and just haven't met a skilled practitioner?

Tim_Murphy

Michael,
The only problem is what you are saying is that it implys that when it comes to testing it's either all or nothing. It's either full speed/power/resistance or nothing. This isn't the case of course, and its easy to test things without going to that extreme. It's easy to test how good somebodies knife defence is without using a real blade. Of course it's not the same as the real thing but it will give a good indication of where the person is at. It's easy to see how good somebodies mount escapes are without nailing them with full power punches and elbows. At the end of the day if somebody can move up the ranks through a system whilst not actually being any good at it then something is seriously wrong. If there is no way to objectively measure performance in a system then something is wrong.

O'Leprosy

BJJ RULES AND THAT'S IT - NO FURTHER DISCUSSION :mad: :mad: :mad:

westhamutd

Hi All

I think you are being a bit unfair to Km and the 10 week and weekend courses they are not designed to turn you into a killing machine but to teach you some self defence tools to help you excape from fights on the street, I agree that after such a short period of time you will not become proficient enough to beat a MMA style fighter and coming from a boxing back ground I find the KM syllabus as with most other MA syllabus is very bad at dealing with punching and punching defence , I think you need to do a mixture of styles for me the most effective for punching defence is Crazy monkey but you need to be very aggressive when using it and go through your opponent. If you fight any person at a range which they are happy fighting with they will win for example never box a boxer. As I have said before I have friends who have boxed at quite a high standard national level. I have sparred with them and if I try to out box them I can’t but if I use tools like crazy monkey to get on this inside and use the shredder for example I have the advantage. I do agree that the marketing of KM has done it quite a lot of harm but also a lot of the arrogance of the BJJ set also puts people of it. I think it is wise to learn from all styles but also remember that the ring is a very different place from the street. I hope I have not offended anyone with these comments. Ps Please excuse my spelling


tks

mickoo

westhamutd wrote:

Hi All

I think you are being a bit unfair to Km and the 10 week and weekend courses they are not designed to turn you into a killing machine but to teach you some self defence tools to help you excape from fights on the street, I agree that after such a short period of time you will not become proficient enough to beat a MMA style fighter and coming from a boxing back ground I find the KM syllabus as with most other MA syllabus is very bad at dealing with punching and punching defence , I think you need to do a mixture of styles for me the most effective for punching defence is Crazy monkey but you need to be very aggressive when using it and go through your opponent. If you fight any person at a range which they are happy fighting with they will win for example never box a boxer. As I have said before I have friends who have boxed at quite a high standard national level. I have sparred with them and if I try to out box them I can’t but if I use tools like crazy monkey to get on this inside and use the shredder for example I have the advantage. I do agree that the marketing of KM has done it quite a lot of harm but also a lot of the arrogance of the BJJ set also puts people of it. I think it is wise to learn from all styles but also remember that the ring is a very different place from the street. I hope I have not offended anyone with these comments. Ps Please excuse my spelling


tks

What are you on about-this does not help km at all as it just states how its not good at dealing with punches! what do you think some scumbag on o'connell st is going to do? Punches

Michael O Leary

Hi Tim/Roper,

I didn’t say there was no way to objectively measure performance. I just said that it is harder to do so in Krav Maga and Wing Tsun and that is one reason why “some” people can slip through.

I am referring to the all-or-nothing approach with regard to grading and how applying 100% speed, power and resistance makes it a lot easier to objectively measure performance.

One of the main points for BJJ and Judo is that you can go 100% without injuring your opponent. So when it comes to grading in one of these arts if you beat a blue belt you are that belt. And it is very easy to establish when one person beats the other as they force the other to submit and there is no ifs and buts afterwards as both people agreed to give it 100%.

It is a lot harder to do this in Wing Tsun as lot of the techniques involve striking the opponent in face, throat, neck, knees, etc. Now “some” Wing Tsun people say you cannot spar as it is too dangerous. I don’t agree with them and would actually agree with your approach where you work at varying level of power but then is less easy to tell who is the winner. I remember grading years ago and sparring with the chief instructor. He was going easy on me and of course I was tensing up and using my strength to struggle and being a pain in the arse. He eventually got plssed off and choked me out.

Regards,

Michael
www.iewto.org

takeda shingen

Best way is use the TKD/TMA approach on the outside, get close offer a BJJ/FMA attack, nullify his RBSD with a JKD riposte then KM/WT the tar out of him til he's KO’d!!

westhamutd

mickoo wrote:

What are you on about-this does not help km at all as it just states how its not good at dealing with punches! what do you think some scumbag on o'connell st is going to do? Punches

hi thanks for the reply I am not saying that KM is no good i think it is a very good system for self defence I am just saying it is not perfect . i study KM and if i had to choose one system it would be CKm. I think it is a great foundation to self defence but I am just pointing out that if is advisable to take from other systems also. I would advise this chap to study Km but to also look out for instructors who teach a broarder range of systems and not just pure KM. And a lot of the fights on the street consists of lots of haymakers throughn in quick sucession and KM defances are not the best I have seen in that area

Tks

sorry spell checker not working

cowzerp

Why did you restart the topic on another thread, thats just awkward and not helpful to the debate-stick to the op's thread-:mad:

westhamutd

sorry

westhamutd

columok wrote:

only if they aren't rubbish. Plenty of styles with rubbish training methods. Should we learn from them (except what not to do?)



Same delivery systems different tactics. A punch is a punch.

I think you have to make up your own mind on the system yourself , as we are all different , for example the last Lee morrison seminar i was on i took a great deal from the pre conflic stuff he did where as my freind who is a doorman knew most of this and took more from the hard skill sections. also i have fought in the street and in the ring and they are a lot different. next time you see a street fight look and comapir.

tks

kravist

Roper wrote:

I've been named here so I'd better clarify my own opinions lest they get chucked in with someone elses.

I have no objection to people training Krav Maga, I am neither pro nor anti-Palestinian, I neither pro nor anti-Israel. All I can say is my own reading of the people I've met, the training methods I've seen and the mindset I've experienced in terms of Krav Maga.

Firstly, and this is a broad generalisation- in my experience, there is an inverse relationship between fitness levels and "deadliness". That is to say that the deadlier the art, the more unfit the practitioners.

Secondly, on a note of skill- without the ability to hold someone in place for a few seconds, how do you do any groin strikes, eye gouges etc? The answer is, you can't, not without some skill in the clinch range.

If someone pins you down in the "street", how do you escape? Is it different to a wrestling, Sambo or BJJ escape? How can it be? What would be the point in inventing new "street" escapes when there are people around the world practising day after day on how to get out of pins and holds. The BJJ escape would remain the same, the danger level would be higher on the street.

What is the difference between wanting to elbow (as in Muay Thai) a guy in a ring and elbow a guy on Henry Street?

Kravist,
I'm sure you're a nice bloke, ball twisting tendencies aside and I'm sure where you're living in Connaught is like Escape From New York, or perhaps its less popular sequel, Escape From LA, but to be frank, I don't see the point in your posts. At best, I can sum the argument like this:
1. I respect how fit and skilled MMA fighters are but the result of those fights would be different if you could strike to the groin.
2. Being able to fight on the ground is all fine and dandy but what if you get taken down onto broken glass with a guy's teeth clamped around your scrotum
3. What if more than one guy attacks you.

1. How long would you give yourself in a street fight against an Irish pro fighter, groin strikes allowed or not? The skills required are the same, the rules change.
2. Biting people isn't allowed in boxing or combat sports so they are instantly useless in a streetfight is the basic summation of that. To expand on your point, hitting people really hard like boxers do every day is useless in a streetfight, being able to choke people like a bjjer is useless in a streetfight. Yeah?
3. Fair point but what if more than one guy attacks YOU? How many eye strikes can you do per minute and how many guys have you actually stopped, for real, in training with an eye gouge or other "banned" technique. Let me guess, none, too dangerous to train.

You have no objection to people training Krav Maga..how very big of you?? The fact that you find it necessary to make this comment is strange at the very least.
And unfortunatly, you summation is about as accurate as Nothingcompares perception of Krav Maga.
Interesting opinions about Connaught though!
There seems to be the opinion that Krav doesn't have any kicking, punching etc. These are integral parts of any Self Defence system.
I HAVE NEVER DESCIRBED ANY SYSTEM AS USELESS!
That seems to be the preserve of MMA'ers and BJJ'ers.
In any post i've ever made, i am respectful of every system.


Do you really need to hold someone in place to strike a groin?? I dont think so!! Was Bernard Dunne held in place the other week as he was being struck?
A slight change of direction and hey presto..a groin strike.
Perhaps i need to explain that a STRIKE can be a kick, punch elbow etc.
I thought that was obvious. Sorry for being so presumptious.


"A guys teeth clamped around your scrotum"......whats with the fasination with a males genetials?
Im sure you're a nice guy too and perhaps that will stand to you in such cases.

kravist

DAVE_K wrote:

it's funny somebody comes on here and asks a simple question about a style other than BJJ/MMA and you kids turn it into a rant about BJJ and MMA......NOBODY MENTIONED BJJ/MMA!!!! D'ya get it?

I've done BJJ/MMA up in NG for a while and while I was no great shakes it was great and i did feel a much more confident fighter - one of the reasons I felt like this was because of the number of "fights/rolls" I ended up doing every week. i.e. lots of practice, made me feel more confident and I didn't feel as if the legs would start knocking when faced with some guy wanting to beat the bejaysus out of me, because it was happening 4 nights a week.

I'm in no position to say it is any better than KM because I've never done KM.

I know this though - if you gave me the choice on the street of either getting

a) a kick in the nuts
b) a punch

Personally I'd take the punch because I might have some chance of carrying on - whereas I know if I got a kick in the nuts i'd be finished.

Anyway kravist, have you started training again yet?

I want to give it a lash

Back Tuesday, 7.30 rugby club!

westhamutd

Thanks for your post kravst

Colm_OReilly

From skimming this I've found it to be non productive, with half arguments from both sides and personal attacks.

Thread closed.