Eircom reason for lack of BB in my area

Suzy1730

Hi Again,
Not sure if I'm in the right place to discuss this, but the Consumer page brought me here. I live in Sligo about 2-3 miles from the exchange in a straight line. Yet I can't get Broadband from anyone hence having to resort to the awful service from 3 mobile broadband.
After asking many questions (none of the answers I got from Eircom funnily enough) it seems that when my estate was built, Eircom split all the lines into the houses, so none of the houses have a single line to carry the BB signal.
Ericom have since said that ther wont be upgrading any more lines. Is this the case or will the new legislation mean that they will have to do so?
If I am in the worng place or there is already a thread for this, could you redirect me?

Many thanks again

Solair

Well what it comes down to is that eircom couldn't give a toss whether you get broadband or not. They've not installed enough cables into your local area and have then crippled them by multiplexing them so that they are carrying more than one voice line down each cable.

Basically what it comes down to is that eircom doesn't see the point in providing you with broadband.

If I were you, I'd vote with my feet and look into wireless options there must be a few around Sligo.

Why would you give your business to a company that clearly treats you and your neighbours with complete contempt?

Suzy1730

Hi there,
There only seems to be Fastcom at th eoment & they are rubbish according to9 anyone thats tried them not to mention expensive. You see even to get BT or UTV broadband (even the wireless modem) I apparently need a phoneline. I wouldnt dream of going to Eircom for broadband, but as my line rental provider surely they should be obliged to provide a line that can support broadband? It's ridiculous how they can get away with it and their customer services are beyond awful!
I just thought that with the new regulations coming in they would be made go out & fix some of the problems they have inflicted upon their customers! (sorry I'm just so cross with being held hostage by a phone company).

Sponge Bob

You are entilted to "Functional Internet Access" on every single phone line, thats 28.8k min at present, what dialup speed do you get ??

Suzy1730

Hey SpongeBob I get about that on dial I think.. maybe 32 from what I can remember. I just think that as a comsumer if the problem is down to the quality of their lines then they should be forced to correct it! BT are upgrading all their lines at present and practiacally all post-codes have a date the lines will be updated. If a customer in the UK has DACS and requests Broadband, BT have to go out & install a new line at not extra cost to the consumer.

Solair

With the exception of Smart, Magnet and in some areas BT all of the DSL-based broadband services are using eircom's DSL infrastructure to connect you to the internet.

When they talk about 'wireless' think of it as a bit like a cordless phone. The internet's provided over your telephone line and then within your house, you can access it wirelessly from your laptop / PC with wifi card installed.

Fully wireless services typically either use a small antenna on your roof, or in the case of Irish Broadband's Ripwave and Clearwire they use a small box about the size of a router that you can put anywhere.

Digiweb Metro is live in Sligo too - that requires no phone line. This service uses a small antenna on your roof. Digiweb can also provide you with telephone service over that infrastructure, but don't dump your phone line until you're sure you're 100% happy with the voice service as I've heard some people don't like it.

http://www.digiweb.ie/athome_broadband_wireless_where.asp?i=2&i2=5&i6=14

watty

Yep I had Esat LLU the same time Eircom launched, I think, end of Summer 2002.

However we kept the ISDN for 12 number direct fax via the server PCI ISDN card that had been used also for Internet.

2 years ago eircom denied I was entitled to fax or Internet on my phone, that I was only entitled to woring voice.

If it's really 28.8k (which usually will allow 33K if 28.8 works) that's some advance from 0k

Sponge Bob

Suzy1730 wrote:

Hey SpongeBob I get about that on dial I think.. maybe 32 from what I can remember.

Then they are compliant according to Comreg. One way to get a proper unsplit pair is to order ISDN ...and when the speed jumps cancel the order

I just think that as a comsumer if the problem is down to the quality of their lines then they should be forced to correct it! BT are upgrading all their lines at present and practiacally all post-codes have a date the lines will be updated. If a customer in the UK has DACS and requests Broadband, BT have to go out & install a new line at not extra cost to the consumer.

All absolutely correct save for one thing. The UK has a proper regulator called Ofcom. We have a weasel milking farm instead .

Our man in Havana

Sponge Bob wrote:

Then they are compliant according to Comreg. One way to get a proper unsplit pair is to order ISDN ...and when the speed jumps cancel the order

They do regularly refuse orders for ISDN on the basis they can't supply a full line.

Sponge Bob

thats true too.

Benny Coleman

Hi,

Very interested to see that 28.8 is the min dailup as I get 14.4 - 16.8 and they (Eircom) said that the min was 14. Who should I contact in relation to this?

Benny

Sponge Bob

you must complain formally to eircom, link on eircom website.

they have 10 days to give you "Functional Internet Access" at 28.8k, then you may go to Comreg.

you may also go to the www.nca.ie website at that time and complain that the lack of FIA means your line is not

1. of merchantable quaility
2. fit for the purpose

under the sale of goods act 1980 , NCA will organise a line rental rebate until it is merchantable ....28.8k

but first complain formally to eircom and wait 10 days.

thefinalstage

Sponge Bob wrote:

you must complain formally to eircom, link on eircom website.

they have 10 days to give you "Functional Internet Access" at 28.8k, then you may go to Comreg.

you may also go to the www.nca.ie website at that time and complain that the lack of FIA means your line is not

1. of merchantable quaility
2. fit for the purpose

under the sale of goods act 1980 , NCA will organise a line rental rebate until it is merchantable ....28.8k

but first complain formally to eircom and wait 10 days.

What about back payments?

Sponge Bob

after its sorted

RangeR

And for the love of all that is good in the world, DO NOT EMAIL THE COMPLAINT.

Put it in writing and send it by Registered Post. Anything else could get "lost".

Sponge Bob

By letter

If you prefer to put the complaint in writing, you can send it to the following address:
eircom Customer Care,
5th Floor,
Telephone House,
Marlborough Street,
Dublin 1.

yop

Sponge Bob wrote:

You are entilted to "Functional Internet Access" on every single phone line, thats 28.8k min at present, what dialup speed do you get ??

Are u sure about that. they are only getting 12k at my parents home, who should they complain/contact?

RangeR

yop wrote:

Are u sure about that. they are only getting 12k at my parents home, who should they complain/contact?

Please see the address in the posting directly above yours

knipex

Sponge Bob wrote:

You are entilted to "Functional Internet Access" on every single phone line, thats 28.8k min at present, what dialup speed do you get ??

Bob you sure of that.

I had a problem with my line (it failed) they came out and repaired and since then I cannot get over 19K. I rang eircom and they told me that as long as the line is good for voice thats all they need to provide. Even when I threatened to close my account it made no difference.

Sponge Bob

yep, complain formally .

Fogmatic

I've just seen your info about 'Functional Internet Access', Sponge Bob, and it made interesting reading. Noticing recently that my dialup connection speed is viewable in my connection menu, I was curious to keep an eye on it. It's usually been 9-odd kb per sec (though it did get up to a blistering 12kps one day).
So I'll be making a formal complaint - thanks for setting out the details (and I know not to trust phone calls or email for this kind of thing!).
I'm lucky - our local wireless broadband scheme is now just within reach, and I'm about to order it. But it takes a few weeks, and I want to keep my dialup conection as a standby (we make lots of phone calls too, and it makes sense to keep our UTV bundle).

Eircoma sent me an individually addressed congratulatory leaflet years ago about being enabled for broadband, and insisted for 2 years that I could get it (that saga of contradictory statements etc is in another thread - I'll post a link to it if anyone's in the mood for a good fume!). Even they finally admit now that I can't get it.

ednwireland

i thought eicom managed to get this hanged to 0k a couple of years ago cant remember what doc i saw it in to get out of this sort of situation i.e as long as you had voice that was them done

bealtine

ednwireland wrote: »

i thought eicom managed to get this hanged to 0k a couple of years ago cant remember what doc i saw it in to get out of this sort of situation i.e as long as you had voice that was them done

It was "upgraded" from 0k to the dizzying heights of 28k.

cgarvey

Was that not on a "best-effort" basis (i.e. it's still effectively 0k)?

bealtine

cgarvey wrote: »

Was that not on a "best-effort" basis (i.e. it's still effectively 0k)?

The relevant bit from the Comreg document:

"On functional Internet access, ComReg is proposing guidelines for meeting a required minimum data rate of 28.8 kbit/s for functional narrowband Internet access. It is expected that the telephone lines for all end users who wish to have internet access will meet this minimum standard. Where this is not the case, ComReg will expect that eircom will use all reasonable efforts to rectify the situation. "

Slightly more than "best-effort" but not much.

Fogmatic

Well, I'm going ahead with that complaint anyway.
My nearest phone-line neighbour got the run-around from Eircoma too, so if he's getting similar 'speeds' I'll enourage him to complain too.

Hmm... wonder if I should ask my local-paper reporter friend if it's worth covering. And whether there's any equivalent in this complaint system to a 'class action'.

gerryo

bealtine wrote: »

The relevant bit from the Comreg document:

"On functional Internet access, ComReg is proposing guidelines for meeting a required minimum data rate of 28.8 kbit/s for functional narrowband Internet access. It is expected that the telephone lines for all end users who wish to have internet access will meet this minimum standard.

Damn them, this is effectively allowing Eircom to continue to install carrier systems for as long as they like. I was hoping these had been outlawed, but now future generations will have to suffer them.

cgarvey

bealtine wrote: »

Slightly more than "best-effort" but not much.

"all reasonable efforts" == "best effort" from what I can tell. I.e. there's no hard performance metrics, no right to the 28k8, no fines for failing to deliver, and no reduced line rental for sub-standard lines.

So, from the consumer point of view, the real functional internet access rate is 0k, best I can tell.

lucernarian

I can remember the PDF file which comreg released when it decided on FIA of 28.8k.

Apparently 93% of phone lines were capable of it (140,000 lines not even capable of that is astonishing). Rolling targets were mentioned in the document over the further 18 months, to boost it to 94.5%. Nothing more was mentioned for what happens after the first 18 months or so.

The relevant bit here is that ComReg decided that eircom must take remedial action up to a cost to the company of €7000. If it would cost more to provide that, the customer would pay a portion of the price to do the remedial works.

I'm certain that eircom were obliged to provide 28.8k if it cost <€7000. The FIA thing is not so relevant now since the advent of EDGE which means virtually everywhere in Ireland can get roughly ISDN speeds or a bit more, albeit with its disadvantages too.

Is it possible for a line, barring a >10km line or suchlike, to be able to carry 14kbps but not carry 28.8 kbps?? I can't see how a pairgain could feck up v.34, unless it stopped trellis modulation?

watty

No
EDGE does not G'tee ISDN speeds. GPRS "dialup speed" or even no connection.

ISDN gives a genuine reasonable latency 128k (2ch) 64k (1ch) error free connection which with typical errors and performance of EDGE is faster and lower latency and unlike GPRS / EDGE always connects and doesn't drop.

GPRS/EDGE is mostly better than analogue dialup, can be worse latency than analogue dialup, but no way gives ISDN reliability.

Very possible for a 10k line to only do 19k. In fact I had a 900m line that would only do 19k! It took 5 years to get eircom to admit it was faulty. (no pair gain).

Traditionally on lines you had loading coils to improve the speech response below 3.5KHz. These make higher frequency attenuation much much much worse.

Wikipedia is not reliable. However these extracts about loading coils are enough to give you the idea:

Middle 20th Century telephone cables had load coils at intervals of a mile, usually in coil cases holding many. The coils must be removed to pass high frequencies ... For lines used (regularly?) for BBC outside broadcasts the Loading coils would be removed and custom cable equaliser designed after the frequency response was measured. Poor longer lines about 10kHz and good shorter lines about 22kHz

Long loops, such as those terminating at more than 18,000 feet from the central office, pose electrical challenges. When the subscriber goes off-hook, a cable pair behaves like a single loop inductance coil with a -48 Vdc potential and an electrical current flow of between 20 - 50 mA dc. Electrical current values vary with cable length and gauge. A minimum current of around 20 mA dc is required to convey terminal signaling information to the network. There is also a minimum power level required to provide adequate volume for the voice signal. A variety of schemes were implemented before DLC technology to offset the impedance long loops offered to signaling and volume levels. They included the following:

* Use heavy-gauge conductors – Up to 19 gauge (approximately the gauge of pencil lead), which is costly and bulky. The heavy-gauge cables yielded far fewer pairs per cable and led to early congestion in cable routes, especially in bridge crossings and other areas of limited space.
* Increase battery voltage – This violation of operating standards could pose a safety hazard.
* Add amplifiers to power the voice signal on long loops. This however, requires volumes of auxiliary equipment, a myriad number of cross wiring points, and extensive record-keeping.
* Add signal regeneration and signal extension equipment – The comments regarding amplifiers apply here as well.
* Add loading coils to reduce the attenuation of voice signals over long loops. These have detrimental effect to new transmission technologies using the local loop, like DSL, and must be removed.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_loop_carrier

Loading coils inserted periodically in series with a pair of wires reduce the attenuation at the higher voice frequencies up to the cutoff frequency of the low-pass filter formed by (a) the inductance of the coils and distributed inductance of the wires, and (b) the distributed capacitance between the wires. Above the cutoff frequency, attenuation increases rapidly.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_coil

The evil reality is that VDSL, ADSL2, ADSL2+ etc all improve the speed of broadband compared to plain ADSL, but that all of these approach the same curve of dropping speed versus distance beyond 1km.

By 5km there is little difference. At 8km you be lucky to get 512k. Distance or speed is reduced the more pairs are in a bundle and tighter packed they are as cross talk between pairs increases and becomes more significant than noise or attenuation.

You can't have DSL at all with loading coils. You can replace the loading coils with repeaters. If there are pairgain/line sharing then they likely will have removed the loading coils, otherwise it doesn't work. Since old pair gains use analogue FDM (SSB essentially ) and newer ones digital signalling, you are limited maybe to 14k or 19k or less on pairgains.

lucernarian

Yeah, but once a pairgain supports a certain modulation (e.g v34), surely it will support it at maximum speed? The distance from the pairgain to a house is nearly always <100 metres, though I have seen 1km house-to-pairgain lengths.

I've come across lines where because of things like multiple electric cattle fences, the line quality would have benefited from a pairgain (once it could deal with the line noise) A stable 28.8k is better than unstable 36k.

And I only said EDGE offered ISDN *speeds*. It's reliability would be one of the disadvantages I implied.

watty

Ah, yes.right. Getting to be a gloomy place this. I hate cattle fencer noise.

I had an old 1980s transeiver that could impressively blank it but none of my modern gear does. Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click ....
Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click ....
Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click ....

mabro

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Then they are compliant according to Comreg. One way to get a proper unsplit pair is to order ISDN ...and when the speed jumps cancel the order



All absolutely correct save for one thing. The UK has a proper regulator called Ofcom. We have a weasel milking farm instead .

Eircom sucks! I am 600 metres from my new house and I have broadband here but won't have it in new house. Eircom would not entertain my complaint. EXTREMELY rude. I work from home, I could loose my job. I 'm based in Bantry near the town and exchange, it's crazy. Is it woth ordering ISDN to get a proper line for DSL?

cgarvey

mabro wrote: »

Is it woth ordering ISDN to get a proper line for DSL?

Only you can answer that, I'm afraid! There's anecdotal evidence that it works, but there are also some cases where it didn't work, and your €100+ down. If DSL is important to you (work, etc.) then that's nothing. If you just want it for casual surfing, then that's quite a bit.

Is the 600 metres further from the exchange than your house, or closer? Do the next-door neighbours of the new house have DSL?

mabro

HI,

Thanks for the reply. My new house is closer to the exchange. My neighbours do not have DSL either and they have also been told by Eircom that there is no hope of it.

I'll try the ISDN request route I suppose. Although I am looking at mobile boradband through the edge network. Any thoughts on that?

Sponge Bob

beats 12k eircom dialup

cgarvey

mabro wrote: »

Although I am looking at mobile boradband through the edge network. Any thoughts on that?

If it's EDGE, I'm guessing o2 (have no experience of Meteor)? If so, then I find it works well in that it's reasonably consistent in rural areas. There are times where the o2 connection drops off the face of the planet for a minute or 4 (or until you reconnect), but it's my backup net access and my on-the-road access and is usually fine for browsing,email, and some remote admin. Gaming/VoIP and heavy remote admin are out because of latency/QoS.

mabro

Thanks SpongeBob. It's just sickening to think how backwards this poxy country's infrastructure is.

:mad:

Cabaal

Suzy1730 wrote: »

Hey SpongeBob I get about that on dial I think.. maybe 32 from what I can remember. I just think that as a comsumer if the problem is down to the quality of their lines then they should be forced to correct it! BT are upgrading all their lines at present and practiacally all post-codes have a date the lines will be updated. If a customer in the UK has DACS and requests Broadband, BT have to go out & install a new line at not extra cost to the consumer.

While this is an old thread I can tell you for a fact that this is not always correct, if BT discover a DACS box affecting an end users line and its within the customers premises then they will remove it within a matter of days...however

If a customers has a DACS box and BT send it to planning and its found that it costs lets say £20K to remove it and it'll only end up suppling Broadband to lets say a hand full of customers then BT will not complete the work and no ISP in their right mind will fork out the money need to cover such an insane cost as they'd never make it back

BT don't have to go out and install a new line, BT just have to make decisions that are financially sound

Additionally, even if BT do do the required work to remove a DACS box from an end users line this can delay the end users order by weeks, months and even years and they's nothing BT Retail/Wholesale, other ISP's or OFCOM can really do about it as it'll be done when its done, currently the longest delayed order due to a DACS box I've seen is around 24months.

So while DSL rollout within the UK is better then Ireland its not all roses just the same