Any practising catholics here? (and do you follow the rules?)

Dudess

I'm in my late 20s and I've noticed in the past couple of years that a number of people in my age group have started to attend mass again - seemingly having gotten over the rebelling against religion phase so integral to their teens/early twenties.
The reason - generally they've decided to reconnect with their spiritual side. People my age group are also getting married, and all the ones I know tend to opt for a church wedding. Those who have kids are choosing to have them baptised as catholics (I know two girls who married men who are members of the Church of Ireland, yet their children were still baptised as catholic).

So... I guess this means loads more kids, shunning their friends who are gay, maybe protesting against divorce and abortion and, in the event that they can't have kids, refusing to go down the IVF route.
And as for those who are not married - no more sex til their wedding night.

Doesn't it?

Doubt it.

Why this hypocrisy? Sure, reconnect with your spiritual side - that's great. Embrace the teachings of christianity - even better. But opting for the catholic faith and attending catholic mass - isn't this just laziness? What about attending ecumenical services, unitarian services. Aren't there non-denominational christian services that focus on Christ's teachings rather than being petty sects?
I find it pretty repugnant that people who use contraception, have sex before marriage and have gay friends (surely they should be even more supportive of their gay friends by not having anything to do with an organisation that condemns homosexuality as evil) are re-embracing religion by opting for catholicism. Rules are rules.

I'm not a practising catholic.

Karoma

Irish Catholicism has long been a pick'n'mix religion. You've just noticed your friends reaching an age where they have to make grown-up decisions, and they have chosen the old, easy route - it's lipservice. It is nothing new.

Dudess

True it's nothing new. But all of what you said is exactly what galls me. I think it becomes more and more hypocritical with each new generation. At least 30 years ago, our parents genuinely were religious (maybe that was fear more than anything).

Karoma

Have you questioned any of your friends?

GhostInTheRuins

Dudess wrote:

I find it pretty repugnant that people who use contraception, have sex before marriage and have gay friends (surely they should be even more supportive of their gay friends by not having anything to do with an organisation that condemns homosexuality as evil) are re-embracing religion by opting for catholicism. Rules are rules.

Do you find it repugnant because you are a die hard catholic and disapprove of those actions in general or because of their hypocrisy? Just curious, I presume it's the latter.

Dudess

No, they're mostly just acquaintances - apart from one friend. She's willing to admit that she's selecting the bits she wants. On the other hand, she doesn't see herself as that religious - she's not in mass every Sunday.
D.T. Jesus: it's the latter.

Tha Gopher

I never rebelled against religion. I just couldnt be bothered going to mass on a Sunday getting the congregation drunk off my breath alone from the night before. In fairness, unless you have good personal reason hating the church is one of the most conformist, saddest things I can think of.

Plug

Im suposed to be a catholic, i don't believe in that kind of crap tbh.

I only did my comformation for the money not the holy spirit, cule!

Mossy Monk

I am not really one for fiction.

Stephen

Mossy Monk wrote:

I am not really one for fiction.

QFT.

That was especially for you ThaGopher

Ruu_Old

I think like a lot of us, we were given the choice to continue on with it or make our own minds up when we were about 10-12 year olds. It just wasn't for me.

lemansky

I just don't care. I only ever went because I had to. Once I started having a choice I gave it up. It was never for me.

Dirk Gently

I've yet to meet a genuine catholic. Most of these D.I.Y. catholics I know wouldn't know too much about their own religion, or any religion for that matter and just have a vague sense of belonging to this club, whether through nationality or because they want to believe in a God and catholics believe in God so therefore they must be catholic.

I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of young people with access to education are not atheists or at least wolly agnostics, if they just thought about it for a few minutes. Like Mr Tayto says, there's always one but really, how many "catholics" are aware of their religions teachings and actually believe it? I've always had a soft spot for buddists but I see that as more of a personal lifestyle choice for the person rathar than a religion. Regarding Catholism, I just can't understand if genuine new recruits are getting involved.

Tha Gopher

Stephen wrote:

QFT.

That was especially for you ThaGopher

Do not EVER direct the letters "QFT" in my direction, even if you are agreeing with a post I made.:rolleyes: QFT is like a written form of teh gheyness.

mehg, ive no problem with it full stop. They have had little to no control over our lives since the late 70s. Let people believe what they want to (mind you i had a looksie in the Christianity forum, someone was claiming the wife had spoken word conversations with God)

Eh......okey doke Eamon......

Dudess

Yep, I think a tiny part of me wants there to be some higher power looking after us all (although scratch that "all" - look at the sh*t going on around the world) but apart from that, I'm pretty much an atheist.

I suppose "agnostic" would be the best way to describe me.

estebancambias

Yes I consider myself to be a true Catholic, but I also have my own views on religion, which do not detail the image of a catholic per se.

People who say there is no God, are under the impression they are insightful and deep thinking but in truth they are too shallow to even comtemplate the existence of something higher out there.

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!! It's blind hatred, and I will be making a vid on youtube about this soon.

ceidefields

The one thing I find very sad about the Catholic religion is the inability to be self-critical. There's only one holy church, it's our way or the highway sort of thing. No room for internal dialog or debate at all.

And honestly, what experiences do any priests have that are relevant to life today?

The whole religion just seems destined for the dustbin to me.

Dirk Gently

estebancambias wrote:

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!! It's blind hatred, and I will be making a vid on youtube about this soon.

oh noes ...... A youtube video :eek:
That will teach em.

Dudess

estebancambias wrote:

Yes I consider myself to be a true Catholic, but I also have my own views on religion, which do not detail the image of a catholic per se.

A catholic or a christian? Y'see, there's a difference. If you're not married and having sex, using contraception, aren't opposed to divorce, abortion, have no problem with homosexuality - all or some of the above, well then you're not actually a true catholic are you? Whether or not you have your own views on what constitutes that.

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!! It's blind hatred

Could you elaborate on that statement now? I certainly have no problem with Christianity - in fact I have great time for the teachings of Christ (who I do believe existed - a person, not some divine entity). It's basically: be nice to each other.

estebancambias

Ceidefeilds good points, however your point that the Catholic religion has the inability to be self-critical can be applied to any religion or non-believers for that matter.

the_syco

Dudess wrote:

I find it pretty repugnant that people who use contraception, have sex before marriage and have gay friends (surely they should be even more supportive of their gay friends by not having anything to do with an organisation that condemns homosexuality as evil) are re-embracing religion by opting for catholicism. Rules are rules.

I'm not a practising catholic.

There's being a Catholic, and then there's following rules laid out by people who think its ok to **** a child.

estebancambias wrote:

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!!

I think you mean the East...

Stephen

estebancambias wrote:

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!! It's blind hatred, and I will be making a vid on youtube about this soon.

I don't hate christianity. I just don't believe in it. The same goes for islam, judaism, hinduism, scientology and <insert religion here>. Believe in whatever you like, it doesn't bother me. I only have a problem with religions when their followers try to force their beliefs and rules upon others, such as good old catholic Ireland with its illegal contraception in the past, creationist nutters trying to teach their stories as science in America, muslims going apeshít and burning Danish embassies and the like over a few stupid cartoons, etcetera. The list goes on.

Tha Gopher

the_syco wrote:

There's being a Catholic, and then there's following rules laid out by people who think its ok to **** a child.


.

That is somewhat of an overstatement and you know full well it is. Its like saying that because that child molester in England got off today with a ridicilious community sentence that Gordon Browns government is pro paedo. Mistakes and irresponsible descisions happened, but that blanket comment is a load of arse.

Dudess

the_syco wrote:

There's being a Catholic, and then there's following rules laid out by people who think its ok to **** a child

How are they two separate things? Surely "being a catholic" IS "following rules laid out by people who think it's ok to **** a child". Those "rules" are catholic doctrine (although not all of those who enforce them think it's ok to **** a child).

rusalka

Dudess wrote:

If you're not married and having sex, using contraception, aren't opposed to divorce, abortion, have no problem with homosexuality - all or some of the above, well then you're not actually a true catholic are you?

Emmmmm....why not, then? Would you say an employee who pilfers stationery or takes 10 minutes longer than he should at lunchtime is any less an employee?

Likewise just because you are Catholic does not in any way negate the fact that as a human being you are imperfect (in the eyes of the church, anyway!;) ) and in having imperfect judgement, will more than likely make decisions which will cause you to sin (again, in the eyes of the church....), but it doesn't make you any less Catholic.

It makes you a sinful Catholic, but still a Catholic in the truest sense of the word. Obviously those who follow the Catholic faith will (or should, anyway!) aspire to follow the rules, but sure we're all only human, and should they fall - isn't that what confession's for? Just wipe the slate clean, and off you go again!

To paraphrase a quote - "The old JC's got nothin' on me!" :rolleyes:

I'm reminded of the scene in Nuns on the Run when Robbie Coltrane's character is explaining Catholicism to Eric Idle's, and tells him (her!) that we have to sin in order to be forgiven, and get into heaven, and that's why Catholicism suits so many people - they're selling afterlife insurance!

Tha Gopher

Enough of this. Im converting to Islam (an offshoot of Islam that several Wu Tang members are into, it allows for drinking, smoking weed and random women, as long as you change your name to a half ghetto half Arab name like Shakwon Allah Supreme or something )

estebancambias

Lol.

Look people blame religion saying it's the root of all evil. Come on that is just wrong, with religion mixed with people thinking for themselves it should and would lead to a better world.
I really don't care what religion you persue, or even if you don't, but religion should be seen as the teacher, no matter what. You can doubt, you can say Religion is merely a fabrication by man to feel good for themselves, but there should be laws which prohibit people from saying comments like ''this guy jesus supposably', 'allah is a dick' and stuff along those lines.

ejmaztec

estebancambias wrote:

Lol.

Look people blame religion saying it's the root of all evil. Come on that is just wrong, with religion mixed with people thinking for themselves it should and would lead to a better world.
I really don't care what religion you persue, or even if you don't, but religion should be seen as the teacher, no matter what. You can doubt, you can say Religion is merely a fabrication by man to feel good for themselves, but there should be laws which prohibit people from saying comments like ''this guy jesus supposably', 'allah is a dick' and stuff along those lines.

Surely, if you are allowed to say that religion is a fabrication, isn't that the same as calling all believers dicks? What would you suggest happens to the perpetrators?

jester77

Although I'm a Catholic (I suppose that's because of my parents faith) I could never understand the concept, it's more far fetched than Santa Claus. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of gullible people out there who fall for this type of thing and what's sad is that there is no one around like when you were a kid to tell you that there is no such thing as Santa

Turkilton

I told them we shouldn't give women the vote

David Michael

Dudess wrote:

I'm in my late 20s and I've noticed in the past couple of years that a number of people in my age group have started to attend mass again - seemingly having gotten over the rebelling against religion phase so integral to their teens/early twenties.
The reason - generally they've decided to reconnect with their spiritual side. People my age group are also getting married, and all the ones I know tend to opt for a church wedding. Those who have kids are choosing to have them baptised as catholics (I know two girls who married men who are members of the Church of Ireland, yet their children were still baptised as catholic).

So... I guess this means loads more kids, shunning their friends who are gay, maybe protesting against divorce and abortion and, in the event that they can't have kids, refusing to go down the IVF route.
And as for those who are not married - no more sex til their wedding night.

Doesn't it?

Doubt it.

Why this hypocrisy? Sure, reconnect with your spiritual side - that's great. Embrace the teachings of christianity - even better. But opting for the catholic faith and attending catholic mass - isn't this just laziness? What about attending ecumenical services, unitarian services. Aren't there non-denominational christian services that focus on Christ's teachings rather than being petty sects?
I find it pretty repugnant that people who use contraception, have sex before marriage and have gay friends (surely they should be even more supportive of their gay friends by not having anything to do with an organisation that condemns homosexuality as evil) are re-embracing religion by opting for catholicism. Rules are rules.

I'm not a practising catholic.

Welcome to getting older.

Deal with it.

Earthhorse

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the case that in some places you would have to raise your child as a Catholic in order to gain access to the best schools? I can understand people "being" Catholic for the sake of their child's future even if I don't like it.

Turkilton wrote:

I told them we shouldn't give women the vote

Yeah! What?

Hm I was at a wedding today, very traditional, and wondering if all the people taking part really believed in everything going on, or just wanted the big fancy wedding
In any case, it's been about 10 years since I've been a catholic. Went down a different path instead
I don't hate catholicism, it just seems like a primitive set of rituals and beliefs.
Various other religions... *shrug*

I do agree with OP that it seems to be rather lazy - person wants a spiritual side, person just picks the main cultural thing instead of doing genuine research into their beliefs

Naikon

estebancambias wrote:

People who say there is no God, are under the impression they are insightful and deep thinking but in truth they are too shallow to even comtemplate the existence of something higher out there.

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!! It's blind hatred, and I will be making a vid on youtube about this soon.

I think you just want to believe in Christianity/other religion because it offers some form of comfort which you would lose as an Atheist/Agnostic.
Just because I want something to be true........doesn't mean it is.
Science may just be a modeling system for the universe, but it's more believable than a guy with a beard creating "the earth" in six day's etc.

I wish I was gullabal to believe in the likes of the catholic church/jesus our "savior" etc , but with the "holes" present in their view of the creation of the universe, "lack of definition of a soul" etc, and the fact that somehow "subordinate" beings have no souls leads me to believe otherwise.
I am Agnostic, and until the church or "god" proves otherwise, I won't blindly follow something I really don't "get" If you know what I believe.
The lack of evidence really pisses me off with the church and their somewhat "blind" faith.

Dudess

David Michael wrote:

Welcome to getting older.

Deal with it.

Rrrrrright. I suppose posting my view on Boards is a method of "dealing with it" so I guess I have that box ticked. Thanks for an extremely valuable contribution anyway.

Terry

I wouldn't worry about him.
Posts like that are his forte.
In fact, I don't believe he has ever made a valuable contribution anywhere.

Dudess

Wow, he (and the countless others like him on Boards) are such interesting, original people. They post a line that swims against the tide of logic and common sense, don't back it up, then log off - talk about thinking outside the box! They should all apply for jobs with Independent Newspapers or the Daily Mail.

Sangre

the level of ignorance that most people have about their own religion is hilarious.

estebancambias

But Sangre, I have yet to witness any facts that anyone has stated which are refutable. Everything so far has been based on opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that.

indough

Tha Gopher wrote:

Enough of this. Im converting to Islam (an offshoot of Islam that several Wu Tang members are into, it allows for drinking, smoking weed and random women, as long as you change your name to a half ghetto half Arab name like Shakwon Allah Supreme or something )

The 5%ers lol

Sam Vimes

estebancambias wrote:

People who say there is no God, are under the impression they are insightful and deep thinking but in truth they are too shallow to even comtemplate the existence of something higher out there.

The NEW western world hates Christianity....FACT!!! It's blind hatred, and I will be making a vid on youtube about this soon.

People who say there is no god have looked for evidence of god, found zero and determined that there is no god based on that. The finest example i know of not to believe in god is this:

during ww2 there were outposts put on remote islands with natives who had never seen white people. The outposts had radio towers and trucks and an airfield etc. And they had supplies dropped by parachute

years after the war people went back and they found the natives had built mock radio towers from palm trees, using coconuts as headphones and made wooden trucks etc. They thought the spirits had dropped the supplies and were mimicing the soldiers in the hopes it would happen again

i'm glad we're not as stupid as them because we worship a carpenter who lived 2 thousand years ago.

My point is its always been human nature to, when something unexplainable happens, say "i don't understand that so it must be god". And every society has had its gods but they've always been drastically different. Surely if there was one god the religions would all be the same?

And i know you like to think that anyone who disagrees with you or mocks your obsession with mc veigh is hateful and devious etc but thats an example of the problem with religion. People see their own beliefs as 100% correct and refuse to listen to anyone else's point of view. They have their holy book that says x, y and z so anyone who disagrees must be either a liar or evil. Its just arrogance really and has been the cause of countless wars

an example of such arrogance: david hume said of the virgin birth: "which is more likely, that the whole of natural order be suspended or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"

exactly the same logic could be applied to all the "miracles" performed by jesus but he believes in jesus so he only uses the logic to rubbish the other sides beliefs

estebancambias wrote:

Ceidefeilds good points, however your point that the Catholic religion has the inability to be self-critical can be applied to any religion or non-believers for that matter.

it can be applied to any religion but absolutely cannot be applied to non-believers as a group. In the whole religious debate, they are the only ones who have a shred of evidence for their case. Atheists would love to have a big beard in the sky protecting us all but its just incredibly unlikely. Please prove me wrong. I want you to. It would be better for everyone if i was

religions can't be self critical in that their books are supposedly written by perfect beings and therefore unquestionable. Science books are written by people who get excited at the idea that someone has proved their whole theory wrong because they've advanced human knowledge further

rusalka wrote:

Emmmmm....why not, then? Would you say an employee who pilfers stationery or takes 10 minutes longer than he should at lunchtime is any less an employee?

you can't be a catholic if you don't believe in jesus. Equally, you can't be a catholic if you agree with abortion or homosexuality. Its a holy doctrine, therefore its either 100% right or 100% wrong. You can't pick and choose the bits you like.

Spyral

I'm in my late 20s and I've noticed in the past couple of years that a number of people in my age group have started to attend mass again - seemingly having gotten over the rebelling against religion phase so integral to their teens/early twenties.
The reason - generally they've decided to reconnect with their spiritual side. People my age group are also getting married, and all the ones I know tend to opt for a church wedding. Those who have kids are choosing to have them baptised as catholics (I know two girls who married men who are members of the Church of Ireland, yet their children were still baptised as catholic).

If you get married in a Catholic Church (ie one of the 2 is a Catholic) then you must promise to raise the children as Catholic and get a dispensation before marriage

So... I guess this means loads more kids, shunning their friends who are gay, maybe protesting against divorce and abortion and, in the event that they can't have kids, refusing to go down the IVF route.
And as for those who are not married - no more sex til their wedding night.

Firstly you by no more kids you mean "no contraception" which is innacurate as Catholics can use NFP
Secondly they can use Gamete intrafallopian transfer (GIFT) type IVF as it does not create excess lives which will be discarded (ie murdered) and takes place within the body

Why this hypocrisy? Sure, reconnect with your spiritual side - that's great. Embrace the teachings of christianity - even better. But opting for the catholic faith and attending catholic mass - isn't this just laziness? What about attending ecumenical services, unitarian services. Aren't there non-denominational christian services that focus on Christ's teachings rather than being petty sects?

the church isn't a petty sect and it is ignorance (no fault of your own as religous education is rubbish in this country) to suggest that it is. The Roman Catholic Church has been the same since the beginning and it was only with Luthor that this whole idea of "do what you want" really took off

I find it pretty repugnant that people who use contraception, have sex before marriage and have gay friends (surely they should be even more supportive of their gay friends by not having anything to do with an organisation that condemns homosexuality as evil) are re-embracing religion by opting for catholicism. Rules are rules.

I have gay freinds. I recall something about not condoning the activity but nothing about rejecting them. We are all sinners after all and its a case of hate the sin love the sinner.

Irish Catholicism has long been a pick'n'mix religion. You've just noticed your friends reaching an age where they have to make grown-up decisions, and they have chosen the old, easy route - it's lipservice. It is nothing new.

Possibly but there are those who attempt to understand it and do it for reasons other than "I've always done it"

In fairness, unless you have good personal reason hating the church is one of the most conformist, saddest things I can think of.

lol Amen !

I've yet to meet a genuine catholic. Most of these D.I.Y. catholics I know wouldn't know too much about their own religion, or any religion for that matter and just have a vague sense of belonging to this club, whether through nationality or because they want to believe in a God and catholics believe in God so therefore they must be catholic.

you just said it yourself "DIY catholic" but what is a genuine catholic ? Its rather judgemental to categorise people. I recall in the bible a saying about not telling your brother he has a splinter in his eye while you have a plank in yours. So you become the pope first then tell us what to do !
Besides its why there is a sacrament of reconciliation - because people dont always follow the rules.

I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of young people with access to education are not atheists or at least wolly agnostics, if they just thought about it for a few minutes. Like Mr Tayto says, there's always one but really, how many "catholics" are aware of their religions teachings and actually believe it? I've always had a soft spot for buddists but I see that as more of a personal lifestyle choice for the person rathar than a religion. Regarding Catholism, I just can't understand if genuine new recruits are getting involved.

Are you a catholic, you seem to be angry that there are no 'genuine catholics' is it that you practice and are irked or just irked generally at what you perceive to be hypocracy ?

The one thing I find very sad about the Catholic religion is the inability to be self-critical. There's only one holy church, it's our way or the highway sort of thing. No room for internal dialog or debate at all.

And honestly, what experiences do any priests have that are relevant to life today?

Its the truth. If you dont like the fact that 2+2=4 do you have a debate? No you can either accept it or not. There is no room for debate.

The whole religion just seems destined for the dustbin to me.

well it's survived 2000 years so its well so far..

There's being a Catholic, and then there's following rules laid out by people who think its ok to **** a child.

you tell me where in the church doctrines it says its ok to sodomise a child and I will convert to the religion of your choice

the level of ignorance that most people have about their own religion is hilarious.

I concur entirely

My point is its always been human nature to, when something unexplainable happens, say "i don't understand that so it must be god". And every society has had its gods but they've always been drastically different. Surely if there was one god the religions would all be the same?

actually Catholicism teaches that 'other religions' eg paganism, the Egyptian gods etc are demons

HammerHeadGym

Whatever about kids who don'tknow any better, I can't beleive that there are adults who still buy into this bullsh!t. Is it really that scary to get on with your life without an invisible omnipotent dictater holding your hand? Muppets.

Terry

Commander Vimes wrote:

an example of such arrogance: david hume said of the virgin birth: "which is more likely, that the whole of natural order be suspended or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"

Doron Nof is no stranger to controversy. When you're applying modern scientific methods to stories from the Old and New Testaments, it just goes with the territory.

In 1992, Nof attempted to provide an oceanographic explanation for the biblical story of the Red Sea crossing by the ancient Israelites. More recently, the Florida State University oceanographer co-published a paper (click for PDF) that offered a paleolimnological explanation for walking on water in the Sea of Galilee.

Press reports reduced the substance of his research finding to a hot headline that triggered passionate responses--including a fair share of hate mail. But Nof was careful to avoid drawing any conclusion about the New Testament account that Jesus walked on water in Lake Kinneret (known outside of Israel as the Sea of Galilee). CNET News.com recently caught up with Nof to learn more about his findings.

Continued here.

Spyral wrote:

the church isn't a petty sect and it is ignorance (no fault of your own as religous education is rubbish in this country) to suggest that it is. The Roman Catholic Church has been the same since the beginning and it was only with Luthor that this whole idea of "do what you want" really took off

The catholic church has not been the same since the beginning.
Divorce used to be allowed and priests were allowed to marry.
Also, it's "Luther" and not "Luthor". Although, I'm beginning to see something here.
Superman is supposedly Jewish. Martin Luther was German. Hmm.

Tar.Aldarion

No, I'm not stupid(with regards to other humans).

Glowing

This thread is making me angry.

Am I right in saying that the catholic church won't condone the use of condoms for the prevention of the spreading of HIV in developing countries?

How can you justify that?

Tar.Aldarion

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29404-2005Jan22.html

ROME, Jan. 22 -- After several days of unusual public debate among senior figures in the Roman Catholic Church, Pope John Paul II on Saturday reaffirmed church teaching that urges abstinence and marital fidelity to stop the spread of AIDS and forbids condoms.

"The Holy See . . . considers that it is necessary above all to combat this disease in a responsible way by increasing prevention, notably through education about respect of the sacred value of life and formation of the correct practice of sexuality, which presupposes chastity and fidelity."

In the Vatican's teaching, phrases such as "sacred value of life" and "correct practice of sexuality" generally preclude contraception.

His words followed a week in which a high official of Spain's Bishops Conference said there was "a place" for condoms in AIDS prevention, but then was overruled by the full Bishops Conference, and other leaders weighed in to suggest publicly that a policy change might be appropriate.

In recent days, the pope has also stressed the role of Catholic health workers in tending to the AIDS-stricken. "At my request, the church has mobilized in favor of the victims and especially in order to assure access to help and the necessary medical care through a number of treatment centers," he said. He was referring to the Holy See's Good Samaritan Foundation, established last year to coordinate funds and organizations to help AIDS victims.

The Vatican has depicted contraception as part of an attack on the "culture of life" because it blocks the creation of children. On Saturday, John Paul II also repeated the Vatican's condemnation of euthanasia, which the Netherlands has legalized and which in the pontiff's view is an example of the "culture of death."

"The Holy See has made known its clear position and invites Catholics in the Netherlands always to show their absolute respect for human life, from conception to natural death," the pope said in the statement.

Pope Paul VI banned the use of contraception 37 years ago, and at that time the issue was almost entirely birth control. Ever since, high church officials have considered the question largely to be closed. But the AIDS pandemic has led to calls from some corners of the global church for authorizing at least one form of contraception -- condoms -- as a means of preventing HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, from spreading.

Two cardinals in Europe this week separately spoke of a hypothetical situation in which use of a condom might be justified: when a woman must have sex with someone who is infected with HIV and therefore must protect herself.

And in Mexico City, a bishop said at a news conference Friday that condom use could be a "lesser evil" if employed to prevent AIDS. "If someone is incapable of controlling their instincts . . . then they should do whatever is necessary in order not to infect others," said Felipe Arizmendi, bishop of San Cristobal de las Casas, in far southern Mexico.

The comments followed months of ferment in the church over how to approach AIDS prevention. Last year, the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development (CAFOD) published a paper urging a range of methods to fight AIDS.

"For many in Africa and Asia, sex is often the only commodity people have to exchange for food, school fees, exam results, employment or survival itself in situations of violence," the paper said. "Any strategy that enables a person to move from a higher-risk towards the lower end of the continuum, CAFOD believes, is a valid risk reduction strategy."

Vatican officials have said that in the field some individual priests or health care workers might see fit to counsel use of condoms in particular cases. But the officials emphasized that such instances did not represent a change in teaching.

"The problem is that anytime we try to give a nuanced response, we see headlines that say, 'Vatican approves condoms.' The issue is more complicated than that," Monsignor Angel Rodriguez Luno, a professor of moral theology at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross, said on Friday. "From a moral point of view, we cannot condone contraception. We cannot tell a classroom of 16-year-olds they should use condoms.

"But if we are dealing with someone or a situation in which clearly persons are going to act in harmful ways, say, a prostitute who is going to continue her activities, then one might say, 'Stop. But if you are not going to, at least do this,' " said Luno, who is an adviser to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a Vatican department charged with safeguarding orthodoxy.

One possible avenue for a new condom policy would be a "lesser-of-two-evils" approach. In this regard, condoms could be approved as a means of reducing the instance of danger or sin in cases where someone is bent on having extramarital sex or sex with a spouse while infected with HIV.

Rodriguez Luno -- without endorsing a new policy -- placed the issue in the context of the Ten Commandments. Sex outside of marriage already breaks the Sixth Commandment, which forbids adultery, he said. "Infecting someone with AIDS would also mean sinning against the Fifth Commandment -- you shall not kill," he said. "Condoms would diminish that danger."

rusalka

Commander Vimes wrote:

you can't be a catholic if you don't believe in jesus. Equally, you can't be a catholic if you agree with abortion or homosexuality. Its a holy doctrine, therefore its either 100% right or 100% wrong. You can't pick and choose the bits you like.

I think you've missed my point. I agree 100% with what you've said above, but my point was rather that just because a Catholic may agree 100% with the doctrines of the church, it doesn't mean they won't occasionally break the rules - the big stuff, or the small stuff, and in doing that, it doesn't make them any less a "true" Catholic (to use Dudess' term) than anyone else.

Even while excommunicated from the R.C. church (either by the imposed, or the immediate/automatic forms), a person is still considered both Christian and R.C. - it is purely a "medicinal penalty" to encourage someone to change their ways until they can repent and basically re-profess their obedience to the law of the church. The R.C. church will never let you go! You may be denied access to the sacraments, and from taking part in the liturgy, but they still consider you one of their sheeples, and whether you like it or not, still Catholic in their eyes!

Sangre

estebancambias wrote:

But Sangre, I have yet to witness any facts that anyone has stated which are refutable. Everything so far has been based on opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make or how it relates to mine.

I was pointing out that many who claim to have faith know very little about the dogma and teachings of their own faith.

bohsman

Glowing wrote:

This thread is making me angry.

Am I right in saying that the catholic church won't condone the use of condoms for the prevention of the spreading of HIV in developing countries?

How can you justify that?

True, but there have been cases of the church giving out condoms - there was one incident of condoms being stapled to leaflets and handed out.

bohsman

bohsman wrote:

there was one incident of condoms being stapled to leaflets and handed out.

Great! :eek: