UST Unstable surface training

Transform

Just a quick note on the following

The Effects of Ten Weeks of Lower-Body Unstable Surface Training on Markers of Athletic Performance
http://nsca.allenpress.com/nscaonline/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1519%2FR-19845.1

Conslusions - UST has rehab value (all swiss ball work started with rehab work), but the deployment of UST for reasons other than this are not supported by this study or any other research cited.

So overall folks if you are still climbing up on a swiss ball/wobble board trying to balance on it while doing lateral raises, biceps curls or even squats, is it really going to improve sports persormance? Not likely, unless you are training for the circus!

Pop it in some time in your training yes (5mins) but all this faffing around standing on balls and doing balancing acts is just an excuse to take time off from proper effective training.

Now, a surfer may get some benefit though

GreeBo

I remember watching a skier (lady) doing squats standing on a ball that was on a wobble board
It impressed me and I guess it has to improve your balance and definitely your proprioception which will help in all sports...

Hanley

GreeBo wrote:

I remember watching a skier (lady) doing squats standing on a ball that was on a wobble board
It impressed me and I guess it has to improve your balance and definitely your proprioception which will help in all sports...

To what extent does improved "balance" help that couldn't also be achieved (or even compensated for) by better gains in strength and flexability?


My point is that are the minimal gains yieled from UST training worth the time not spent trying to increase power, speed, strenght or skill specific to the sport in question?

Dragan

GreeBo wrote:

I remember watching a skier (lady) doing squats standing on a ball that was on a wobble board
It impressed me and I guess it has to improve your balance and definitely your proprioception which will help in all sports...

Out of interest, can you name a sport that takes places on a wobbly surface life that?

thirtyfoot

Dragan wrote:

Out of interest, can you name a sport that takes places on a wobbly surface life that?

Can you name a sport that involves lying flat on your back and lifting a weight away from your chest:D

I don't think anyone uses UST as a main focus for training. Most people use for rehab and supplementing their overall program I'd say.

justsomebloke

Tingle wrote:

Can you name a sport that involves lying flat on your back and lifting a weight away from your chest:D

powerlifting or strongman

Dragan

Tingle wrote:

Can you name a sport that involves lying flat on your back and lifting a weight away from your chest:D

I believe this question was already answered.

The point i was making is simply the people need to stopped getting wrapped up in whats looks impressive, or what is now called "functional".

Do what actually works for your specific sport, not something you saw someone else doing down the gym because it looks cool.

thirtyfoot

Dragan wrote:

I believe this question was already answered.

The point i was making is simply the people need to stopped getting wrapped up in whats looks impressive, or what is now called "functional".

Do what actually works for your specific sport, not something you saw someone else doing down the gym because it looks cool.

Totally agree. Would also add in not doing something just because its always been done or has always been perceived to be essential to your sport. An athlete should always question and always ask themselves 'why am I doing this'.

UST is great to add variety to kids training. Our coach 20 years ago used to have us working on his homemade wobble board and we loved it.

GreeBo

Dragan wrote:

Out of interest, can you name a sport that takes places on a wobbly surface life that?

Skiing, ice-skating, mountain biking, skate boarding, cross-country running, to name same excissively unstable sports.
But you can add in any sport that involves active movement in my opinion. Running on a rugby pitch for example, thats not a stable exercise, especially when you add in swerving and obstacle avoidance.

Look at it this way, when you are running you are creating the instability on a "relatively" stable surface, when you are balancing on a wobble board the board is creating the instability.

GreeBo

Hanley wrote:

To what extent does improved "balance" help that couldn't also be achieved (or even compensated for) by better gains in strength and flexability?


My point is that are the minimal gains yieled from UST training worth the time not spent trying to increase power, speed, strenght or skill specific to the sport in question?

well to take it to extremes, an elephant is pretty strong but couldnt stand on a tightrope.
In my mind there isnt much point being as strong as an ox but unable to control that strength precisely.
Take the example of an old style rugby forward versus a new style. The old guys were big, tough and very strong, the newer players are perhaps not all as tough and strong but the more agile they are the better players they are (which is why everyone is copying the Kiwis now)


I would also argue that the gains are minimal, they might be harder to measure (how do you compare/rate good balance versus bad balance?) but I think over all performance is definitely improved.
Compare your control when drunk versus sober, I think the same sort of improvements can be achieved with these types of exercises.

GreeBo

Dragan wrote:

I believe this question was already answered.

The point i was making is simply the people need to stopped getting wrapped up in whats looks impressive, or what is now called "functional".

Do what actually works for your specific sport, not something you saw someone else doing down the gym because it looks cool.

Before people realised that doing weights could help you play golf they trained for golf by hitting golf balls.

Out of interest, have you tried any of these types of exercises for any length of time and what sports do you play?

justsomebloke

Greebo what point are you actually trying to make in reference to the original topic, cause I am actually lost as to what your point is

Dragan

GreeBo wrote:

Before people realised that doing weights could help you play golf they trained for golf by hitting golf balls.

Indeed. But they don't train on a wobble board, the train for powerful hips and explosivity which will help with a lot more sports.

Wobble boards for me defeat the purpose of something being "unstable".....it's not unstable, it's uniformly reacting to pressures applied which does not happen in and sport. Snow gives way under each foot differently, gravel gives way depending on a multitude of different factors etc.

As for the elephant on a tightrope, i see that as a failed example....why would an elephant want to be on a tightrope? If there evolution required balance then they would be a very different beast altogether.

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, just saying that the best way to develop any sport specific reactions to the play that specific sport as it is meant to be played, not "replication" in an air conditioned room.

justsomebloke

Dragan wrote:

Out of interest, can you name a sport that takes places on a wobbly surface life that?

windsurfing, well it is for me:D

GreeBo

Dragan wrote:

Indeed. But they don't train on a wobble board, the train for powerful hips and explosivity which will help with a lot more sports.

because there is no instability in golf, there is instability in the other sports I mentioned. My point is that if you simple look at practice = repeating the mechanics of the sport then you are leaving something out.

Dragan wrote:

Wobble boards for me defeat the purpose of something being "unstable".....it's not unstable, it's uniformly reacting to pressures applied which does not happen in and sport. Snow gives way under each foot differently, gravel gives way depending on a multitude of different factors etc.

In other sports the your exertions add the instability on a wobble board the board does. Do you really think that someone who can perform on a wobble board is not in some way better than someone who cannot?

Dragan wrote:

As for the elephant on a tightrope, i see that as a failed example....why would an elephant want to be on a tightrope? If there evolution required balance then they would be a very different beast altogether.

If your evolution required you to be able to bench press 250kg or hit a golf ball 350yrds then you would be a different beast. It doesnt but you are training yourself to be able to achieve these things.

Dragan wrote:

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, just saying that the best way to develop any sport specific reactions to the play that specific sport as it is meant to be played, not "replication" in an air conditioned room.

Ive no problem with arguments (as long as they are not for arguments sake).
If what you say here is true then wouldnt sports people be much better off just playing their sport and not training at all? (A/C or otherwise)

GreeBo

jsb wrote:

Greebo what point are you actually trying to make in reference to the original topic, cause I am actually lost as to what your point is

Which post are you referring to?
My point is that UST training is helpful.

thirtyfoot

Dragan wrote:

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, just saying that the best way to develop any sport specific reactions to the play that specific sport as it is meant to be played, not "replication" in an air conditioned room.

On that logic then why would a field sports player or runner or swimmer ever enter a gym? I know thats not what you are saying but you can't apply your logic to only certain examples. Wobble boards or bench press on the face of if seems to have no relevance to me as a runner, yet I know as part of an intergrated training program they can both play a part.

justsomebloke

GreeBo wrote:

Which post are you referring to?
My point is that UST training is helpful.

ye but how?

with all the sports you listed surely practising the sport would be of more benfit then trying to do weighted movements on a wobble board. The whole point of resistance training is that you are building up power. If you are looking for balance there are probably a hell of a lot better and more efficient ways of doing it then trying to squat on a ball that is on a wobble board.

Also in relation to rugby players do you think that they are better players now, cause they can use wobble boards rather then now being professional so have more time as well as improvements in training methods and better nutrition.

Dragan

I think people might be shy of the mark just a little bit.

The argument for wobble boards seems to be that they somehow bring up the the trainee's ingame ability by forcing them into an unstable environment to perform a physical action.

The study posted shows the do very little to improve any of the examine markers in a meaning ful over normal training types?

I am simply asking folk if they have any kind of studies that show the benefits of the wobble boards for the arguments you are making?

The simple fact is that for athletes and sports people gym work is by and large a supplemental aspect of their training. no?

GreeBo

Dragan wrote:

I think people might be shy of the mark just a little bit.

The argument for wobble boards seems to be that they somehow bring up the the trainee's ingame ability by forcing them into an unstable environment to perform a physical action.

The study posted shows the do very little to improve any of the examine markers in a meaning ful over normal training types?

I am simply asking folk if they have any kind of studies that show the benefits of the wobble boards for the arguments you are making?

The simple fact is that for athletes and sports people gym work is by and large a supplemental aspect of their training. no?

I don't have any studies to back it up, just personal experience (and physios, sports scientists, etc)
I also happen to think that UST can also be a part of this training.

Again, have you tried it and what sports do you partake in?

Do you not agree that balance would greatly help in sports like Judo or Karate? Sure strength and flexibility are very important but if you fall over everytime you stand on one foot or someone sweeps a leg then all the strength in the world wont help.

Dragan

GreeBo wrote:

Again, have you tried it and what sports do you partake in?

Do you not agree that balance would greatly help in sports like Judo or Karate? Sure strength and flexibility are very important but if you fall over everytime you stand on one foot or someone sweeps a leg then all the strength in the world wont help.

I did UST for a short time, saw no benefits so went back to what was helping me. Sports wise i have done some MA, Rugby, Gaelic ( both Football and Hurling ) Badminton ( got to a very decent level at one point ) Cross Country Running and Canoeing. At the time i expermented with UST i was predominantly playing Rugby.

Of course balance is important for Judo and Karate, but i am having a hard time applying the idea that balancing on an unstable surface with no foot movement would correspond well with sports where any balance issues are caused by not only your movement, but forces applied by your opponent?

Maybe i am just tired and not thinking hard enough?

thirtyfoot

Regarding rehab a quick google found this.

http://http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WPB-4HHNWPM-3&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=899e28fb75f4faa22cc7e15fc12d1460

Regarding bringing variety to training, its anecdotal but for me as a kid I loved it.

GreeBo

Dragan wrote:

I did UST for a short time, saw no benefits so went back to what was helping me. Sports wise i have done some MA, Rugby, Gaelic ( both Football and Hurling ) Badminton ( got to a very decent level at one point ) Cross Country Running and Canoeing. At the time i expermented with UST i was predominantly playing Rugby.

Of course balance is important for Judo and Karate, but i am having a hard time applying the idea that balancing on an unstable surface with no foot movement would correspond well with sports where any balance issues are caused by not only your movement, but forces applied by your opponent?

Maybe i am just tired and not thinking hard enough?

well maybe you just didnt give it a chance?
Doing anything for a short time rarely give you a chance to validate it.
When you did it, did you notice any improvement in you ability specifically on the UST device? e.g were you able to balance for longer?

I would say that good balance is good balance. Whether its someone trying to flip you or a board trying to shoot out from underneath you, you are tensing and untensing various muscles and tendons to compensate.
I know you will argue that in reality you are making the UST unstable, but if that was *really* the case surely we would all be able to stand on it without any problems?

Having a good sense of where your body is in the world is very important for injury prevention. For example if you are coming back form an ankle injury its much easier to land awkwardly after a smash than it would ordinarily be.
You can easily see this if you simply try to stand on one foot with your eyes closed and compare the performance between the injured and uninjured foot.

Finally I dont think anyone is saying that you should take up UST and drop sprinting, or lifting for example, but in the same way that you incorporate stretching and flexibility exercises into a regime I think UST has its place.

Dragan

GreeBo wrote:

well maybe you just didnt give it a chance?
Doing anything for a short time rarely give you a chance to validate it.
When you did it, did you notice any improvement in you ability specifically on the UST device? e.g were you able to balance for longer?

Well i gave it about 12 weeks at the time, two longer that the study above, and didn't notice any real carryover into my game.

After that i started Oly lifting and noticed massive benefits from that in a small space of time.

Sure, by the end my balance on the device itself was improved.....but i wasn't competing to balance on a ball and it showed me no positive carry over at the time so i ceased training that way.

I would really love to see a study from various sports with various performance markers to be honest!!! Then again, like most people here i'm normally left a bit cold by studies such as this due to obvious limitations you need to place on them.

Dragan

Tingle wrote:

Regarding bringing variety to training, its anecdotal but for me as a kid I loved it.

I think this is an important but often ignored point, especially for younger folk! Sometimes you just gotta do something because it's fun!

Roper

I use the swiss ball as a solo wrestling drill, however, if I had a partner instead, I'd use him 100% of the time. My old boxing coach used to tell us to skip the run if you can spar instead.

Perhaps people are getting caught up in the hype here, both of dismissing and advocating the use of this gear. The simple fact is, athelticly speaking, very few conditioning exercises mimic the EXACT motion used in a sport. The squat makes strong legs but doesn't look exactly like a wrestling pick up, or a drive in a scrum or a leap to head the ball. It's the benefits of the squat (strength, flexibility and balance) that give the squat its place in conditioning programmes.

By equal measure, benching is seen as the holy grail of many (outdated) strength programmes for all kinds of sports. I can't think of a single sport (bar powerlifting) that uses this motion right now. Should we throw out the bench press too? Of course not, it's still a good strengthening exercise and it has it's place, just like UST.

GreeBo

^ what he said.

slemons

its amazing the way things are either revered or reviled...

lots of ways to skin a cat but id imagine that this UST would account for about 5% of training time at most for any team sport (id say for like 99% of all sports). You just cant exert enough force in a safe manner for it to be more useful

give me the humble squat anyday for improving balance. In fact give me any standard compound strength exercise ahead of UST. Just as long as its not done on a machine and you're laughing.

then trot off out and do whatever is it you do rugby or gaa, get your massage&flex&core work every day, and you got a top athlete all of a sudden who's agile and well balanced, for nothing

its fairly simple. Ive seen the transformations myself. Ive yet to see UST do anything other than injure people

nesf

GreeBo wrote:

Do you not agree that balance would greatly help in sports like Judo or Karate?

The thing is, for either of those you'd get a lot more out of sparring someone your level or better if you wanted to improve balance etc. I can understand the skier because in this country you can't ski every day and some balance training would probably be better than none and all that but if you've access to a training partner (or whatever) then wouldn't you get more out of sparring than UST?.

It's similar to someone wanting to be a boxer but who only ever lifted weights. All the strength in the world isn't going to help you if you don't know how to throw a punch etc.

pwd

There was another thread abouty this a little while ago

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2055109527.html

It doesn't seem to do anything much to improve your balance on stable surfaces.