Pelvic tilt while squatting???

davyjose

I was going to hi-jack the other thread on squats, but I'll start my own.
I find when I squat any deeper than parallel (my thighs that is) I get a certain amount of posterior pelvic tilt. This has now and again led to a little bit of back trouble.
I've been told to not squat so low, but that would lead to me doing half or quarter squats methinks.
Does this happen anyone else, and what can I do to improve form on this?

daveirl

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davyjose

No, I would have to honestly say I am not. My warm-ups consist of 10 mins on a xtrainer and stretching.
I would also have to be honest and say that I'm not ideally flexible. Something that needs to be worked on.
I'll give that a go - thanks Dave!

daveirl

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Colm_OReilly

Sounds like a flexibility issue. You should/need to be able to keep a good lumbar curve all the way to the bottom of the squat.

This vid might help you.

Colm

davyjose

Thanks guys, I kinda thoguht it was just the way God made me, but hopefully not - so I'll work on that. Thanks again!

daveirl

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g'em

daveirl wrote:

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Ah dave you're a star, I was just about to go looking for this, fantastic video, I use this stretches all the time and it helped my squat no end. Come to think of it the video deserves a place in the stickies?

Colm_OReilly

That's a 50 minute vid, what's the thrust of it?

Thanks,
Colm

tribulus

Colm_OReilly wrote:

That's a 50 minute vid, what's the thrust of it?

Thanks,
Colm

Everything you need to know about squatting, it's very good.

OP also look at johnnymnenomic's SquatRx viedos on youtube, Daveirl posted a link a week or so ago.

Pugsley

tribulus wrote:

OP also look at johnnymnenomic's SquatRx viedos on youtube, Daveirl posted a link a week or so ago.

http://ie.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=johnnymnemonic2&p=r

Thats the one, have it book marked

daveirl

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agentgreen

daveirl wrote:

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Dave, What did you do to improve your flexibility? I'm having awful problems with mine, particularly(sp?) in the glutes, hip flexors and the hams. Was it just those stretches on that web page you did?

Hanley

I used to have the same problems as is being mentioned. My back used to be all sore cos of it too. A couple of months hard work with dynamic stuff and I could sit on my heels with an arch and zero back pain.

Fast forward 12 months, I've taken my eye off the ball, my hips are fcuking KILLING me and I'm losing alot of power rounding out.

In the last 10 days I've been doing pretty much everything MR and EC say to do here (it's also what I done 18 months to gain my original flexablity so I know it works) http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=495189 and here http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-057-training

daveirl

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agentgreen

Cool thanks. The trainer in the gym told me not to stretch before workout, just warm up??? I'm giving up heavy lifting for a while to improve my flexibility...

daveirl

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Hanley

agentgreen wrote:

Cool thanks. The trainer in the gym told me not to stretch before workout, just warm up??? I'm giving up heavy lifting for a while to improve my flexibility...

Wooooah there bessie. That would be a disasterous idea. I personally believe stiff leg deadlifts are one of the best thing I've ever done for my hamstring flexability. Same goes for behind the neck presses and oh squats for myshoudlers. Chose wisely and you can lift and get more flexible.

Sangre

yeah found out a few weeks ago don't have the fix flexibility for full squats. in fact they've made me realise I've terrible hip flexibility. I always thought touching your toes was the most flexibility you'd ever need.

Great links though, have been stretching most nights to improve this but will give these a look.

agentgreen

Hanley wrote:

Wooooah there bessie. That would be a disasterous idea. I personally believe stiff leg deadlifts are one of the best thing I've ever done for my hamstring flexability. Same goes for behind the neck presses and oh squats for myshoudlers. Chose wisely and you can lift and get more flexible.

A sports therapist told me that, said if I continued to lift heavy with my current flexability (which is dire, about 45 degrees motion in hams ) I could hurt myself, and might be fecked in the future.....

So really at a loose end, not sure what to do in regards flexability.

Hanley

agentgreen wrote:

A sports therapist told me that, said if I continued to lift heavy with my current flexability (which is dire, about 45 degrees motion in hams ) I could hurt myself, and might be fecked in the future.....

So really at a loose end, not sure what to do in regards flexability.

Are you absolutely sure they said that heavy lifting in your current range of flexibility will hurt you in the long term??

Not something along the lines of if you try to lift heavy weights outside of your safe (ie arched back) ROM then you run the risk of injuring yourself badly?

Are they a physio threapist who speacialises in sports or jsut a "sports threapist"?

Did they suggest anything you could do to improve your current situation?

agentgreen

Hanley wrote:

Are you absolutely sure they said that heavy lifting in your current range of flexibility will hurt you in the long term??

Not something along the lines of if you try to lift heavy weights outside of your safe (ie arched back) ROM then you run the risk of injuring yourself badly?

Are they a physio threapist who speacialises in sports or jsut a "sports threapist"?

Did they suggest anything you could do to improve your current situation?

A sports therapist

to quote him he said "sure heavy lifting is great and you look great in the mirror, but if you continue heavy lifting with your current flexability, you'll have serious problems when your older." He told me give you heavy lifting for a few months, do a lot of LIT and then stretch loads and loads and loads.

I'm just confused, do I work on flexability, don't knoww how besides the usual strectchs before rugb training. Do I continue to lift heavy?

davyjose

I'm with Hanley on this. I don't think your going to get to a stage where you have full flexibility or ROM without pushing yourself a little bit. Giving up until you get where you want to be is a bit of a contradiction.Because its not gonna happen by itself.
I think it's about knowing your limits. Sure, it might not be a good idea to hit your PB each week, but still trying work on form and technique, can't hurt.

Hanley

Tbh it sounds like BS to me.

Flexability and strength aren't mutually exclusive. You can select exercises that will help improve your flexability quite easily.

Obviously I'm not a Sports Threapist (what does one need to do to become one actually?) so I wouldn't dream of rubbishing what he said. But ifyou sit down and think about it I think it will all make sense.

agentgreen

Hanley wrote:

Tbh it sounds like BS to me.

Flexability and strength aren't mutually exclusive. You can select exercises that will help improve your flexability quite easily.

Obviously I'm not a Sports Threapist (what does one need to do to become one actually?) so I wouldn't dream of rubbishing what he said. But ifyou sit down and think about it I think it will all make sense.

So if you were me, what would you do? I can't squat properly because of the flexability, my deadlift is also affected. Would you go the way you were going and work on the stuff written in those t-nation articales???

Hanley

I'd work around it.

Try and get your squat flexability up but in the mean time do what you can to build the supporting muscles.

Leg Press, lunges, split squats.
RDL's, SLDL's, Wide Stance Pull thrus.
Hyper extenstions, cable crunches, hanging leg raises.

That would be the core of what I wouldn't do if I absolutely couldn't squat or deadlift. I'd still be pushing myself as hard as possible each week in an attempt to be able to squat and deadlift tho.

agentgreen

Cool thanks. I can deadlift ok, just find it hard to get down to te bar, ut was told my technique was ok. I do a lot of leg press and hack squats on leg day to make up for my lack of conventional squating, wish I really want to do. Do a bit of the SLDLs too.

Would you do much stretching???

Hanley

Normally abotu 5-10 mins worth before training. But look where I now cos of it. I'd say more is advisable.

If you're leg pressing and hack squatting alot hten you absolutely need t ohammer the hell out of your core if you want to be able to transfer the power gained from them to squatting and rubg y playing!

Colm_OReilly

From Practical Programming:

A number of studies have shown an increase in flexibility as a result of complete range of motion weight training. Improvements in hip and knee flexibility on the order of 40% or better are commonly experienced.

As for stretching, the key is consistency. There's a lot of good info/links on this thread.

Colm

Sangre

Hanley wrote:

Tbh it sounds like BS to me.

Flexability and strength aren't mutually exclusive. You can select exercises that will help improve your flexability quite easily.

Obviously I'm not a Sports Threapist (what does one need to do to become one actually?) so I wouldn't dream of rubbishing what he said. But ifyou sit down and think about it I think it will all make sense.

Maybe he was alluding to the fact that his flexibility is so bad he won't be able to lift with proper form?

Only thing I can think of....

g'em

Hanley wrote:

Tbh it sounds like BS to me.

Flexability and strength aren't mutually exclusive. You can select exercises that will help improve your flexability quite easily.

completely agree, and the exercises Hanley outlined are great. There's lots of others you can use for specific areas, but for your bread-and-butter accessory work those are bang on the money.

A combination of full ROM and mobility work/ dynamic warm-ups now has my hips super flexible - I don't think I've felt this comfortable in the squat position since I was a toddler

Hanley wrote:

Obviously I'm not a Sports Threapist (what does one need to do to become one actually?)

would you be interested in doing something like neuromuscular and physical therapy? It could be really beneficial for you (and you'd probably do great business in the gym ). It's a 15 month part-time course, and I know a couple of couple who've done it. My own NMT does a lot of work with rugby teams and athletes and he's brilliant, I only went to see him this morning.

Leon11

I recall reading an article where it stated that the knees take the full weight of the bar when you squat above parallel ie in between the 1/2 squat and parallel range. When you can go below parallel your hamstrings absorb the weight. He could have been referencing that?

Transform

Simple solution - put 15kg plates under the heels when squatting and only squat with your own boy weight for high reps to get the range going.

Also drop the hack and leg press as they will only tighten your piriformis even more (in your glutes and hips) and stick in split squats and lunges onto a small step.

That and do lots of foam rolling and tennis ball work to break down the toughness in the muscles oh and stretch your hips with lots of piriformis stretching - google it

Leon11

Those Dan John video's are an excellent source. The plates under the heels do wonders for me getting my ass to the grass, I've been told to stop using them though by my club physio after a talk I had with him on Tuesday yet our S&C advocates the use of them if any of us have problems with squatting. Guess it's find something that allows you to the exercise comfortably and safely.

Hanley

Leon11 wrote:

Those Dan John video's are an excellent source. The plates under the heels do wonders for me getting my ass to the grass, I've been told to stop using them though by my club physio after a talk I had with him on Tuesday yet our S&C advocates the use of them if any of us have problems with squatting. Guess it's find something that allows you to the exercise comfortably and safely.

Tbh i don't see plates under the heals as being a problem. Look at olympic lifters. They have shoes specially made with an elevated heal for better and deeper squats!!

When I switched from cons (flat soles) to my adistars (OL shoes) I felt infiately more stable and better while squatting.

Leon11

Hanley wrote:

Tbh i don't see plates under the heals as being a problem. Look at olympic lifters. They have shoes specially made with an elevated heal for better and deeper squats!!

When I switched from cons (flat soles) to my adistars (OL shoes) I felt infiately more stable and better while squatting.

I agree 100% on the stability it gives you, I've been getting pains along the inside of my knees and beneath my kneecaps and the first thing he mentioned was wedges. His reasoning was that though they give you better balance, people still tend to put most of the force on the front of the feet rather than driving up with the weight on the heels.

On reflection when I remembered how I've squatted I'd bet I'd still bear most of the weight on the front. Your adistars, how much did you pay for them? I seen a pair online for £130 or thereabouts.

Hanley

Leon11 wrote:

I agree 100% on the stability it gives you, I've been getting pains along the inside of my knees and beneath my kneecaps and the first thing he mentioned was wedges. His reasoning was that though they give you better balance, people still tend to put most of the force on the front of the feet rather than driving up with the weight on the heels.

On reflection when I remembered how I've squatted I'd bet I'd still bear most of the weight on the front. Your adistars, how much did you pay for them? I seen a pair online for £130 or thereabouts.

While I don't think plates specifically caused it, I think they may have contributed. Sounds like I'm contradicting myself, I know.

Sure, they give you better balance. Doesn't neccessairly mean you''ll squat any lower or BETTER tho. Just means you're more "stable". If you're trying to squat and your knees are going forwards and your hips aren't getting below knee level then you're really asking for knee injuries. The shearing forces on the joint are unreal when you squat like that, and I'd imagine it's the primary cause of knee trouble from "squatting".

My Adidstars were £125 i think off pullum sports. It broke my heart to spend so much on them but I know I'd do the same again!

Transform

plates under heels are really a temporary solution until flexibility improves through use of preiously mentioned exercises.

It really is a disgrace the amount of people that cant even touch their toes sitting down with dead straight legs (simple generic stretch) without the upper back rounding. Better flexibility = better performance so work on it

agentgreen

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the advice and sorry davyjose for hijacking the thread. I'm going to give pilates a go, it's meant to be unbelievable for flexibility... Don't know a lot about it, just heard its good.

davyjose

agentgreen wrote:

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the advice and sorry davyjose for hijacking the thread. I'm going to give pilates a go, it's meant to be unbelievable for flexibility... Don't know a lot about it, just heard its good.

Not at all - this is very helpful to me too.