Sinn Fein and plum jobs for 'Irish' speakers

Steerpike

Here's something from Gombeen Nation to get the Little Irelanders going!

Given Sinn Fein's tendency to use populist leftist rhetoric when it suits, it is nice to see them forced into showing their true, right-wing, lumpen-nationalist colours now and again. This time it is about Immigration Minister Conor Lenihan making modest noises about opening up the civil service to Ireland's new arrivals.

Shinner TD Aengus O Snodaigh, in an An Phoblacht article with the absurd headline of "Government Assault on Irish Language Continues" was forced to break cover in this regard, on what he sees as Lenihans's plans "for the removal of Irish language requirements for civil servants", to encourage foreign nationals to join.

Apparently Aengus and the Shinners think it's perfectly OK to exclude people from the civil service because they - along with the vast majority of Irish people - d0 not speak 'Irish'. It is well-known that the Shinners are notoriously slow learners - but even they should be able to see that the State's policies of making 'Irish' compulsory in schools has not worked, and that excluding people (Irish and foreign) from State employment because they don't share the Shinner enthusiasm for "de language", and reserving plum jobs for 'Irish speakers' is not only wrong - it's counter-productive because of the resentment it builds up.

But then again, this is a party that chose to introduce its election manifesto 'as Gaeilge' rather than in the vernacular. Nice to see that they accordingly got the spanking they deserved in the southern elections. Could have been worse, could have been a kneecapping.

flogen

Sinn Féin should realise that very few existing civil servants have any conversational Irish as it is - if it's still part of the entry exam it's very much "Ann and Barry"-level stuff.

Moved to Politics.

Jackie laughlin

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Don't pay any attention to the Shinners on policy matters; they'd say anything for money or votes.

tallus

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Don't pay any attention to the Shinners on policy matters; they'd say anything for money or votes.

Tbh you could take out the word "Shinners" and transpose the name of any political party in this country.

Mick86

Has Eamonn O Cuiv been consulted on this. I doubt he'll be too happy about it.

flogen

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Even in terms of dealing with the state, the reality is that they usually can't, however.

Jackie laughlin

Tallus,
That's just cynicism and it's untrue.

Flogen,
Try it. On the rare occasions that I've done so (I'm not militant on Irish.) I got a reply in Irish or an apology and an Irish speaker was quickly found.

Steerpike

It's refreshing to to partake in a board that isn't (from what I can make out) chock-full of ultra-nationalist, snotty students. Politics.ie, for instance. You should see the invective that my post attacted there, where I was accused of "trying to finish Cromwell's work". To be honest I feel guilty about laughing, because it's quite sad really.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Don't pay any attention to the Shinners on policy matters; they'd say anything for money or votes.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Tallus,
That's just cynicism and it's untrue.

Flogen,
Try it. On the rare occasions that I've done so (I'm not militant on Irish.) I got a reply in Irish or an apology and an Irish speaker was quickly found.

This the issue, and the reason I drew attention to the Shinner's backward attitude. If someone wants to exercise their right to speak as Gaeilge - due to the status afforded to it in the Constitution - it can be arranged for them to do so. It doesn't mean that tax-paying foreign nationals, and most indigenous Irish people, should be discriminated against in the recruitment process or on career progression in State employment.

Jackie laughlin

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

A Dub in Glasgo

Steerpike wrote:

It's refreshing to to partake in a board that isn't (from what I can make out) chock-full of ultra-nationalist, snotty students. Politics.ie, for instance

Are you suggesting that this board is chock full of ultra-unionist, snotty students instead?

Venom

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

So its ok to discriminate against non Irish speaking indigenous Irish people and foreign nationals is it?

A Dub in Glasgo

Venom wrote:

So its ok to discriminate against non Irish speaking indigenous Irish people and foreign nationals is it?

Yes, either that or remove the status of the Irish language as the 1st official language of the state

Venom

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yes, either that or remove the status of the Irish language as the 1st official language of the state

Irish being the 1st official language of this state is a farce and completly inaccurate in this day and age.

A Dub in Glasgo

Maybe so but it will require a referendum to change it

delos

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

They could always pay a decent bonus to anyone who is able to demonstrate that they are bilingual -this should encourage people in the civil service to improve and use the Irish language.

Hotblack Desiato

flogen wrote:

Sinn Féin should realise that very few existing civil servants have any conversational Irish as it is - if it's still part of the entry exam it's very much "Ann and Barry"-level stuff.

It's not (since about 1976) and, although there is still a small percentage of bonus marks in promotion competitions awarded to those who pass an Irish test, it is entirely possible to progress through one's career without taking, never mind passing, an Irish test. Irish is no more relevant to the vast majority of civil service jobs than Swahili or Urdu.

delos wrote:

They could always pay a decent bonus to anyone who is able to demonstrate that they are bilingual -this should encourage people in the civil service to improve and use the Irish language.

Complete waste of public money when 99% of civil service jobs require no Irish at all.

Mick86

Steerpike wrote:

It's refreshing to to partake in a board that isn't (from what I can make out) chock-full of ultra-nationalist, snotty students. Politics.ie, for instance. You should see the invective that my post attacted there, where I was accused of "trying to finish Cromwell's work". To be honest I feel guilty about laughing, because it's quite sad really.

Provos.ie:D It should carry a Government Health Warning.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Are you suggesting that this board is chock full of ultra-unionist, snotty students instead?

Reasonably nationalist, clean-nosed perhaps.

Jackie laughlin

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Everytime a job ad is written, it is done in order to discriminate; it seeks to exclude those who don't have the required skill or the required education, or those too young or too old etc. etc.

The level of antagonism to the Irish language is fascinating. I think it entirely reasonable that Irish civil servants be literate in English and Irish and be numerate. OK, that's basic but anyone of normal ability can achieve it.

Venom

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Everytime a job ad is written, it is done in order to discriminate; it seeks to exclude those who don't have the required skill or the required education, or those too young or too old etc.

Discrimination because of pointless reason for a job such as not being able to speak Irish is just as bad as discriminating based on race,creed or sex. In all honesty are there any people in todays Ireland who cant speak English?

Jackie laughlin

Venom,
As an aside, literacy and numeracy are both problems in Ireland today. Consult any large employer or any 3rd level teacher.

Asking someone to learn Irish is no big deal. It's nothing like racism; there is no requirement to change colour or anything else genetically determined.

Have you any idea how many people who fail to get a job, subsequently say that the problem was not any lack in them but in the employer demanding unnecessary qualifications?

/Andy\

Steerpike wrote:

Here's something from Gombeen Nation to get the Little Irelanders going!

Given Sinn Fein's tendency to use populist leftist rhetoric when it suits, it is nice to see them forced into showing their true, right-wing, lumpen-nationalist colours now and again. This time it is about Immigration Minister Conor Lenihan making modest noises about opening up the civil service to Ireland's new arrivals.

Shinner TD Aengus O Snodaigh, in an An Phoblacht article with the absurd headline of "Government Assault on Irish Language Continues" was forced to break cover in this regard, on what he sees as Lenihans's plans "for the removal of Irish language requirements for civil servants", to encourage foreign nationals to join.

Apparently Aengus and the Shinners think it's perfectly OK to exclude people from the civil service because they - along with the vast majority of Irish people - d0 not speak 'Irish'. It is well-known that the Shinners are notoriously slow learners - but even they should be able to see that the State's policies of making 'Irish' compulsory in schools has not worked, and that excluding people (Irish and foreign) from State employment because they don't share the Shinner enthusiasm for "de language", and reserving plum jobs for 'Irish speakers' is not only wrong - it's counter-productive because of the resentment it builds up.

But then again, this is a party that chose to introduce its election manifesto 'as Gaeilge' rather than in the vernacular. Nice to see that they accordingly got the spanking they deserved in the southern elections. Could have been worse, could have been a kneecapping.

Thanks for giving me the biggest laugh of my day. And whats with putting the word Irish in inverted commas? Are you suggesting that Gaeilge is not our first national language? Spot the inadequate who failed Irish exams in school.

oscarBravo

/Andy\ wrote:

Are you suggesting that Gaeilge is not our first national language?

The word "Gaeilge" is as inappropriate in that sentence as either "français" or "Deutsch" would have been.

/Andy\ wrote:

Spot the inadequate who failed Irish exams in school.

Refer to another poster as an "inadequate" again and you'll be taking a month's holiday from here.

/Andy\

oscarBravo wrote:

The word "Gaeilge" is as inappropriate in that sentence as either "français" or "Deutsch" would have been. Refer to another poster as an "inadequate" again and you'll be taking a month's holiday from here.

Rubbish as regards to the first point.



My apologies as regards to the second. Referring to irish in inverted commas really sticks in my craw.

Victor

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

I think the requirement to be fluent in another language is important. In practice one is much more likely to come across a foreign person who doesn't have good english than and Irish speaker who doesn't have good English.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Everytime a job ad is written, it is done in order to discriminate; it seeks to exclude those who don't have the required skill or the required education, or those too young or too old etc. etc.

I'm not sure if that is an accurate discription of discrimination (it is a description).

There is a huge difference between and objective test (required skill, education, experience) and an arbitary one.

oscarBravo

/Andy\ wrote:

Rubbish as regards to the first point.

feel free to point out any factual inaccuracy contained therein.

/Andy\ wrote:

My apologies as regards to the second.

accepted.




apologies for the lack of capitalisation - both my shift keys and my caps lock key just stopped working for no obvious reason.

Jackie laughlin

Victor,
Apoloies but I don't get your point about people having poor English.

I didn't offer a definition of discrimination. The point I was making is that discrimination is not always bad. It has become a "negative" word and yet a descriminating person would traditionally have taken the term as a compliment.

Asking that Irish civil servants be able to conduct a basic conversation in Irish couldn't be described as an arbitrary barrier to employment. Moreover, I repeat: it's not a big deal to ask someone to learn some Irish. It's not as if they were being asked to undertake some difficult course of study and gain, say, a degree!

Hotblack Desiato

I'm really sick of all these Irish language lobbyists who think that the public service and taxpayer should both bend over to their whims. What you are proposing will cost a lot of money, interfere with appointment/promotion on merit, and produce zero real benefit in customer service.

If you want to make civil servants learn languages, make it French, Chinese, Polish or any of several others they'd be more likely to use in their job than Irish.

It's ridiculous to base recruitment decisions for jobs on skills which are not used in that job.

Jackie laughlin

No Ninja,
I'm not proposing language courses for public servants. As I say, it's not a big deal. Learning enough Irish is up to the applicant and is easy.

I've never had a job that required all of the skills demanded or used all of the skills that I had.

An inability to speak Irish is not merit. We're talking about run-of-the-mill civil servants here, so you can stop this nonsense about THE best person for the job. In the vast, vast majority of appointments, once the unqualified and the nutters are eliminated, almost all of the remainder would be suitable for the job.

You can be a customer, if you want. I'll hold on to my citizenship.

Venom

So your saying that language courses for public servants such as Chinese or Polish (the biggst group of non nationals) is pointless as its not needed in their job but they need to speak Irish which is pointless in this day and age to do their job properly?

Its also a big deal telling people (not asking) that they require a pointless skill for a job position that limits the amount of quaity staff the Civil Service could have if they droped this stupid requirement.

Jackie laughlin

My Irish isn't the best but if I were serious about getting a job, a requirement for which is the ability to speak Irish, I assure you I could make myself proficient damn quickly. Similarly, were I to seek a job in, say, Wales, I would have little difficulty learning Welsh. Learning a language is no big deal!

Now, apart from the fact that I have a right as a citizen of Ireland to conduct my business in Irish - a right, which because my Irish is very poor, I seldom exercise - it is fitting that an Irish civil servant be able to speak Irish.

The skills pool is certainly not so small in this country that the requirement to speak Irish be dropped in order to get competent routine public servants.

Incidentally, are you opposed to other aspects of Irish culture or just the Irish language?

Voipjunkie

Venom wrote:

So your saying that language courses for public servants such as Chinese or Polish (the biggst group of non nationals) is pointless as its not needed in their job but they need to speak Irish which is pointless in this day and age to do their job properly?

Its also a big deal telling people (not asking) that they require a pointless skill for a job position that limits the amount of quaity staff the Civil Service could have if they droped this stupid requirement.

Why is it "pointless" to be able to communicate in Irish. People who can communicate in Irish have a constitutional right to be able to conduct their business with the state apparatus in the first language of this state. How could it possibly be a pointless skill for a civil servant to be able to facilitate that right .

Chinese ,Polish ,or any other language would be an advantage to certain civil servants in certain positions and it would be no harm for some civil servants to be encouraged to learn those languages as well but the state is not constitutionally obliged to be able to provide services in those languages so it is not the same as Irish

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Why is it "pointless" to be able to communicate in Irish. People who can communicate in Irish have a constitutional right to be able to conduct their business with the state apparatus in the first language of this state. How could it possibly be a pointless skill for a civil servant to be able to facilitate that right .

venom probably thinks that constitutional right is pointless.An awfull lot of people would agree.
I love Irish,I love voicing it as a language,the diction of it,the way it phrases things and loads more about it.
That said,I see an unnecessary and costly ineffeciency in having a duplicate infrastructure for it in that no one, absolutely no one that can speak Irish lacks a fluency in English.In my opinion it shouldnt be necessary for that extra infrastructure to keep the language alive.
The language should be for want of a better way of putting it...sexy enough on it's own to stand on it's own two feet and promoted correspondingly.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

venom probably thinks that constitutional right is pointless.An awfull lot of people would agree.
I love Irish,I love voicing it as a language,the diction of it,the way it phrases things and loads more about it.
That said,I see an unnecessary and costly ineffeciency in having a duplicate infrastructure for it in that no one, absolutely no one that can speak Irish lacks a fluency in English.In my opinion it shouldnt be necessary for that extra infrastructure to keep the language alive.
The language should be for want of a better way of putting it...sexy enough on it's own to stand on it's own two feet and promoted correspondingly.

Unfortunately the likelyhood is that without protection including constitutional protection then the whole everyone can speak english anyway argument would kill off Irish pretty quickly.

And on the issue of lack of fluency in english I personally know a lot of people who could manage in English if forced but are far more comfortable in Irish and have far greater vocabulary and fluency in the language they grew up speaking rather than english.
My own personal opinion is that this is Ireland and people who naturally speak Irish should never be forced to conduct their official business with the Irish state in another language and unfortunately the history of this state is that unless you have a cast iron right to it then you wont get it no matter how sexy it may or may not be.
Whilst those you do not speak Irish may not see the point in the added expense of supporting the language as it is a minority that argument could be added to everything from disability rights to anti discrimination laws.

Fratton Fred

Tristrame wrote:

venom probably thinks that constitutional right is pointless.An awfull lot of people would agree.
I love Irish,I love voicing it as a language,the diction of it,the way it phrases things and loads more about it.
That said,I see an unnecessary and costly ineffeciency in having a duplicate infrastructure for it in that no one, absolutely no one that can speak Irish lacks a fluency in English.In my opinion it shouldnt be necessary for that extra infrastructure to keep the language alive.
The language should be for want of a better way of putting it...sexy enough on it's own to stand on it's own two feet and promoted correspondingly.

very good point. I've often wondered why (and I have no facts to back this up, only personal observations) there is a higher proportion of Welsh people fluent in Welsh than there are Irish people in Irish. Both languages as far as i am aware were put under the same restictions by the British, but Welsh seemed to faired better.

i've often associated the speaking of Irish with Nationalism, for no particular reason other than Sinn Feins obsession with it, could it be that connection puts people off?

I speak no Irish at all and have difficulty understanding the sounds that combinations of letters make because it is a language I have no experience in, but it does intrigue me.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

And on the issue of lack of fluency in english I personally know a lot of people who could manage in English if forced but are far more comfortable in Irish and have far greater vocabulary and fluency in the language they grew up speaking rather than english.

Almost as rare as hens teeth though and hardly an economic case I think for a whole separate infrastructure around it..

My own personal opinion is that this is Ireland and people who naturally speak Irish should never be forced to conduct their official business with the Irish state in another language

Oh I think it's a pointless duplicated waste of resources.Even I'd love to be speaking Irish more but no not at the expense of a bloated unnecessary extra infrastructure.

unfortunately the history of this state is that unless you have a cast iron right to it then you wont get it no matter how sexy it may or may not be.

Yes but you are faced with a popular revolt[read abandonment of the language and resentment by the masses] against those methods of enforced life support.

Whilst those you do not speak Irish may not see the point in the added expense of supporting the language as it is a minority that argument could be added to everything from disability rights to anti discrimination laws.

Thats hardly a valid example.
A right to Dual linguistics via a deliberate and expensive extra infrastructure in a climate where most of the nation is happily speaking only one language is hardly comparable to legally enforcing quality of life issues such as in the case of disability etc.
Such a comparison is preposterous in my opinion.

Languages live better I think, when a love of them is promoted rather than giving them an air of authority and compulsion.

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote:

i've often associated the speaking of Irish with Nationalism, for no particular reason other than Sinn Feins obsession with it, could it be that connection puts people off?

It has absolutely nothing to do with sinn fein. People grow up speaking english and it's the primary language used in our schools and at home. I think you give the shinners more credit than they deserve tbh.

Hagar

The term "shinners" seems to be primarily a derogotary term much like "****" and is used with as much disdain.
It is used by some people on this forum to run down all forms of Nationalism, Republicanism or indeed anything vaguely Irish.
Why is it allowed? Is it not abusive?

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

The term "shinners" seems to be primarily a derogotary term much like "****" and is used with as much disdain.
It is used by some people on this forum to run down all forms of Nationalism, Republicanism or indeed anything vaguely Irish.
Why is it allowed? Is it not abusive?

I think that may be a bit harsh. It may be a derogatory term associated with obsessive republicans/nationalists, Sinn Fein supporters or not, but to say it is derogatory to all things Irish is a bit OTT.

Hotblack Desiato

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My Irish isn't the best but if I were serious about getting a job, a requirement for which is the ability to speak Irish, I assure you I could make myself proficient damn quickly.

Then you pass the test, never need to use it and gradually lose it.
In other words it achieves nothing other than an exam pass.
It's not like it's not been tried already, Irish was a requirement until the 70s but it was dropped because compulsory Irish was a failure.

Learning a language is no big deal!

Not if you actually get to use it regularly, it isn't.

Now, apart from the fact that I have a right as a citizen of Ireland to conduct my business in Irish

I don't dispute that. In practice, there is always someone available to deal with the very few calls/letters in Irish.

- a right, which because my Irish is very poor, I seldom exercise - it is fitting that an Irish civil servant be able to speak Irish.

:rolleyes: Do as I say...?

The skills pool is certainly not so small in this country that the requirement to speak Irish be dropped in order to get competent routine public servants.

Ah, you share the government's view that public servants are all little interchangeable pegs who can be slotted into any hole.
You also share their view that recruitment/promotion should not primarily be on merit (you say Irish, they say willingness to move outside of Dublin.)

Incidentally, are you opposed to other aspects of Irish culture or just the Irish language?

I'm not opposed to the Irish language in any way. I am strongly opposed to COMPULSION and TOKENISM which is all that these proposals which crop up every few years are.

kmick

Let em have the Civil Service jobs. Anyone who thinks working in the civil service generally is 'plum' is mistaken. I have worked there and it is no picnic for all sorts of reasons. Imagine working for Aengus O Snodaigh - I dont personally have anything against the man but he can barely speak properly. He seems like he is so indignant and bursting every time he can barely express himself.

Zambia

The northern Goverment operates two helplines

1 in Irish and one in "Ulster Scots"(desereves the "" entirely). In the the last two years the Irish one has had 3 calls. The Ulster Scots one has never been called. Seems The republic could operate a simialar vein of thought.

While seeing the point in an Irish test it simply is alienating the vast amount of new arrivals the republic has.

I submit the only way to alievate this is actually have a referendum on the decision
"Should the Irish language be the nations first language or engilsh"

Then once implemented live with it and impose it on the foreigners that want a Civil service job. If you want a civil service job in the UK Engilsh is a requirement.

themole

Zambia232 wrote:

While seeing the point in an Irish test it simply is alienating the vast amount of new arrivals the republic has.

Preventing them from getting a civil service job possibly, but thats hardly what i would call alienation. This is not England. Just like France should stay French we should try to stay Irish.

The way i see it is that we have two official languages. This means the government is obliged to conduct business in both Irish and English. In essense this means there is no difference between expecting the Irish govnt to be able to conduct business in Irish and expecting the French government to conduct business in French.

So, while Irish is still an official language there should be no discussion. For that reason I don't agree with the removal of the Irish requirment for Gardai.

If the question at had is whether or not Irish should be an official language thats a different debate. I would vote to keep it.

Zambia

themole wrote:

The way i see it is that we have two official languages. This means the government is obliged to conduct business in both Irish and English. In essense this means there is no difference between expecting the Irish gov to be able to conduct business in Irish and expecting the French government to conduct business in French.

So, while Irish is still an official language there should be no discussion. For that reason I don't agree with the removal of the Irish requirment for Gardai.

If the question at had is whether or not Irish should be an official language thats a different debate. I would vote to keep it.

True Alienation is a tad severe a wording.

As long as Irish is the official 1st language I would also agree on the Gardai piont.

But in reality the Irish goverment conducts 95%-99% of its business in english if not %100. Either Irish should be moved to the fore front and pushed or cut loose from the current status of being dragged along.

There is an Irish forum on boards with little or no Irish language Present in the last year. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=31


I would vote to loose it but then again I never learnt it. If the horses legs are broken its not going to run again despite how much you love it.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Almost as rare as hens teeth though and hardly an economic case I think for a whole separate infrastructure around it..

Might be a shock to you but everything can not just be measured on an economic case I know it is a cliche but it is a country we live in not an economy

Tristrame wrote:

Oh I think it's a pointless duplicated waste of resources.Even I'd love to be speaking Irish more but no not at the expense of a bloated unnecessary extra infrastructure.Yes but you are faced with a popular revolt[read abandonment of the language and resentment by the masses] against those methods of enforced life support.

No I don't think there is any mass revolt if anything the blossoming of the gael scoileanna all over the country proves that more and more people are embracing the language than ever before.

Tristrame wrote:

Thats hardly a valid example.
A right to Dual linguistics via a deliberate and expensive extra infrastructure in a climate where most of the nation is happily speaking only one language is hardly comparable to legally enforcing quality of life issues such as in the case of disability etc.
Such a comparison is preposterous in my opinion.

Being able to communicate in your native tongue in your own country is a quality of life issue whilst it may not affect the majority of people that is not a reason to neglect those it does affect and that is as true for disability rights as it is for language rights.

Tristrame wrote:

Languages live better I think, when a love of them is promoted rather than giving them an air of authority and compulsion.

In an ideal world maybe but if the Irish government was not obliged to provide services in Irish then they would not exist end of story
The other thing to remember is that people are not being forced to use the Irish services they are provided for those that need/want them in order to do that it is fairly obvious that you are going to need employees with some knowledge of the Irish language you can call that compulsion but it is no more compulsion than insisting that they have some level of knowledge of the english language.

/Andy\

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My Irish isn't the best but if I were serious about getting a job, a requirement for which is the ability to speak Irish, I assure you I could make myself proficient damn quickly. Similarly, were I to seek a job in, say, Wales, I would have little difficulty learning Welsh. Learning a language is no big deal!

Now, apart from the fact that I have a right as a citizen of Ireland to conduct my business in Irish - a right, which because my Irish is very poor, I seldom exercise - it is fitting that an Irish civil servant be able to speak Irish.

The skills pool is certainly not so small in this country that the requirement to speak Irish be dropped in order to get competent routine public servants.

Incidentally, are you opposed to other aspects of Irish culture or just the Irish language?

Jackie Laughlin you are my new hero

Hotblack Desiato

Zambia232 wrote:

While seeing the point in an Irish test it simply is alienating the vast amount of new arrivals the republic has.

Actually it's mostly the people like me who had 13 years of daily Irish forced on them (by teachers who didn't want to have to teach it, either, but were likewise compelled) who have a problem with it, I don't think the new arrivals would mind that much...
Compulsion has done a great deal of damage to the Irish language, why bring in yet more compulsion?
What benefits do you think it will bring, and how? It's never worked so far.

If you want a civil service job in the UK Engilsh is a requirement.

And a very reasonable requirement that is too.
However it's far from reasonable to require that 100% of your staff be fluent in a language used by <1% of customers, especially when all of them can speak English anyway.

I'm sure there are several minority languages in the UK which are the primary language of a decent proportion of customers, but learning Urdu or the like isn't a requirement for a UK civil service job... even though a good number of these people will have very poor or no English and have real difficulty accessing services through English.

Hotblack Desiato

Voipjunkie wrote:

No I don't think there is any mass revolt if anything the blossoming of the gael scoileanna all over the country proves that more and more people are embracing the language than ever before.

I'm not sure that by doing that they're embracing the language so much as running away from the Catholic Church.
If we had widespread availability of secular education in English I doubt the gaelscoileanna movement would be as successful as it is.

Being able to communicate in your native tongue in your own country is a quality of life issue

I can, and do, every day - in fact I'm doing it right now.
The native tongue of myself and 90+% of Irish people is English.
This sort of thing (and statements like "our national language" when we have two) does more to alienate non-Irish speakers than anything else.

In an ideal world maybe but if the Irish government was not obliged to provide services in Irish then they would not exist end of story

They can, and do, provide these services without making Irish compulsory.
The demand for services in Irish is so small that it can be and is being met without compulsion.

you can call that compulsion but it is no more compulsion than insisting that they have some level of knowledge of the english language.

You are missing the point and I have to wonder why, it's been pointed out so many times now by different posters.
English is required for 100% of public sector jobs.
Irish for less than 1%, probably.
Why make the other 99% learn a language they will never use in their work?

Victor

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Victor, Apoloies but I don't get your point about people having poor English.

Pavel and Magda arrived in Ireland two months ago and are working in west Galway Gaeltacht. Driving home, Pavel crashes their car into another car because he didn't understand the Irish-only, non-standard warning sign. Liam, the other driver is a local.

Who is likely to have a better grasp of English when the Garda shows up?

Hagar wrote:

The term "shinners" seems to be primarily a derogotary term much like "****" and is used with as much disdain. It is used by some people on this forum to run down all forms of Nationalism, Republicanism or indeed anything vaguely Irish. Why is it allowed? Is it not abusive?

Shinner is a mildly derogatory term, yes. Less offensive than "Chuckies" (from "Tíocfaidh") which tends to offend Sinn Féin members no end. Of course, they start it by calling Worker's Party members "Stickies".

Hagar

Victor wrote:

Pavel and Magda arrived in Ireland two months ago and are working in west Galway Gaeltacht. Driving home, Pavel crashes their car into another car because he didn't understand the Irish-only, non-standard warning sign. Liam, the other driver is a local.

Who is likely to have a better grasp of English when the Garda shows up?

Shinner is a mildly derogatory term, yes. Less offensive than "Chuckies" (from "Tíocfaidh") which tends to offend Sinn Féin members no end. Of course, they start it by calling Worker's Party members "Stickies".

It is Pavel's reponsibility to understand the signage used. Much the same as it is mine to understand the French signage and peculiarities of the Code du Route where I live. I hope Pavel has valid insurance, but I wouldn't bet my money on it.

Will the Garda be speaking English in the Gaeltacht? Why do you assume he will?

The term "stickies" arose from the fact that the Easter Lilies that they sold were sticky backed self adhesive as opposed to the pinned version sold by their counterparts. Because you claim, how you know this is beyond me, that SF use the term "stickies" for the above reason you are saying it's ok to use a derogotary term to describe them. Even Ian Paisley had the good grace to use their proper name allbeit with the /"IRA" suffix.

Victor

Hagar wrote:

Because you claim, how you know this is beyond me, that SF use the term "stickies" for the above reason you are saying it's ok to use a derogotary term to describe them.

I never said it was OK, but I did hint at the hypocrisy and schadenfreude.

Voipjunkie

Victor wrote:

Pavel and Magda arrived in Ireland two months ago and are working in west Galway Gaeltacht. Driving home, Pavel crashes their car into another car because he didn't understand the Irish-only, non-standard warning sign. Liam, the other driver is a local.

Who is likely to have a better grasp of English when the Garda shows up?

Well if pavel and magda cannot understand a stop sign because it says stad but is the exact same colour shape and size as any other stop sign it would be their basic level of intelligence that would concern me not their grasp of any particular language.