[Article] Dublin Outer Bypass could be tolled

Chris_533976

The Minister for Transport says he is in favour of the planned Drogheda-Naas orbital route around Dublin and suggests that it could be a toll road if it goes ahead.

The proposed motorway would begin south of Drogheda towards Navan, pass south around Trim before ending near Naas in Co Kildare.

The road will not continue on to connect with the N11 Dublin to Wexford road because of the Wicklow mountains.
Advertisement

Minister Noel Dempsey told RTÉ News he had just read the report on the orbital route drawn up by the National Roads Authority, which was submitted to his Department.

He said the road is an extremely important route and would bring about major relief to other roads such as the M50 and bring major economic and environmental benefits.

The estimated cost of the orbital route is around €2bn. However, the project is not included in the National Development Plan so money would have to be found separately for the road.

Asked about the likelihood of it being tolled, Mr Dempsey said he believed the road would attract considerable interest from investors.

The NRA's report must now be brought before the Cabinet for approval. Environmental Impact Statements will also have to be drawn up along the proposed route.

Construction work would not be expected to begin for at least five years.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0820/orbital.html

Poxyshamrock

If the road was tolled by the government and the money used to fund the roads I'd have no problem with that but I really doubt it will end up like that.

paulm17781

Good Lord! A FF politician in favour of a major building contract? What ever next? :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

where will it cross the m3 is there a pic?

Zebra3

And when that road is full in 2020 ,where will the outer outer ring road be built?

:rolleyes:

Skyhater

Poxyshamrock wrote:

If the road was tolled by the government and the money used to fund the roads I'd have no problem with that but I really doubt it will end up like that.

Yes!!! Toll it until it's paid for, then remove the toll!!!!
Have a big electronic sign showing how much remains to be paid!!

Clear, transparent and Fair system!!!!
This should be done with all new motorway and even used to fund parallel public transport projects (ie M3 Toll to help fund the Navan Rail Link)

DerekP11

Zebra3 wrote:

And when that road is full in 2020 ,where will the outer outer ring road be built?

:rolleyes:

Galway. Might keep the westies happy, all us Dubs lashing through Oranmore on the way to Bray!

Zoney

Zebra3 wrote:

And when that road is full in 2020 ,where will the outer outer ring road be built?

:rolleyes:

N17 and N18!

westtip

there is no need for this road as full motorway standard - 2+1, seamless N standard road or dual carriageway would be quite adequate - the only reason they suggest motorway is because they can fool us into a PPP being good for us and get the private sector to rip us off for the next 30 years - A seamless N51/N52 to Tullamore and then an improved N80 to Portlaoise would be adequete as a mix of HQDC 2+1 and keeping out of any towns would be perfectly OK - Another motorway is purely a way of indulging ourselves we need it, we don't - It is an indulgence we simply don't need - An improved outer orbital road on existing routes yes, bypasses around towns such as Navan of course, but full grade motorway who are we kidding???

steve-o

Shouldn't the decision to toll a road (and how much to toll) be completely be separate from how it's built or who builds it? The suggestion that "it'll be tolled if it's a PPP build" makes no sense to me. I think tolling should be used as a tool to regulate the traffic flow - discourage long-distance commuters and discourage travel at peak times of the day. Just like the port tunnel, but a bit less radical. If you build a road that makes it feasible to commute from Drogheda to Naas, then there has to be something in place to discourage that behaviour or it will become another M50.

Red Alert

Actually I do like that electronic sign idea, and it's not exactly as crazy as it sounds.

Also something that struck me - my dad often uses the westlink to go to the airport and says that sometimes he'll only have €2 and not €1.90 for the automatic lane. I think they should be made let a free car thru when the change total reaches 1.90 or else save your reg number if they have a number plate reader.

Navan Junction

lostexpectation wrote:

where will it cross the m3 is there a pic?

Sth of Navan - judging by the pic somewhere close to Tara....:eek:

Here we go again

Stark

I'm sure someone somewhere chose the route purely for hilarity purposes

LostinBlanch

Navan Junction wrote:

Sth of Navan - judging by the pic somewhere close to Tara....:eek:

Some people will say that this was the plan all along. Now a more cynical person might ask who owns lands adjacent to any proposed interchange? Lands that "could" be rezoned by the county council and increase hugely in value. Heaven forbid that anyone who has interests in such lands should be found to be involved in such rezoning. :rolleyes:

Zebra3

LostinBlanch wrote:

Some people will say that this was the plan all along. Now a more cynical person might ask who owns lands adjacent to any proposed interchange? Lands that "could" be rezoned by the county council and increase hugely in value. Heaven forbid that anyone who has interests in such lands should be found to be involved in such rezoning. :rolleyes:

Or a "supporter of the democratic system" through regular brib-,I mean regular financial donations to certain politicians.

dubhthach

Navan Junction wrote:

Sth of Navan - judging by the pic somewhere close to Tara....:eek:

Here we go again

Yup it's already got a name, "The Blundelstown Interchange" ...

Irish and Proud

dubhthach wrote:

Yup it's already got a name, "The Blundelstown Interchange" ...

...or do you mean BLUNDERSTOWN?

The M3 should have followed the western route (Dunshaughlin to Navan Section) which would have been far shorter and less troublesome!

Regards

Stark

Navan Junction wrote:

judging by the pic somewhere close to Tara....:eek:

Where did you find the pic?

DerekP11

LostinBlanch wrote:

Some people will say that this was the plan all along. Now a more cynical person might ask who owns lands adjacent to any proposed interchange? Lands that "could" be rezoned by the county council and increase hugely in value. Heaven forbid that anyone who has interests in such lands should be found to be involved in such rezoning. :rolleyes:

FF = CRH.

Never forget it.

Davidth88

FF = CRH.

Or as I put it to the local FF cadidate when she called.

If you lie down with dogs , you will get fleas.

Back on track.

Question :- Why do I pay road tax ??

To toll a ' relief ' road is just plain stupid.

Oh........to westip saying

there is no need for this road as full motorway standard - 2+1, seamless N standard road or dual carriageway would be quite adequate

Yes I am sure when the myopic twits who designed the M50 that I am sure they thought , 2 lanes will be enough , ohhh we won't bother with real junctions , ohhhh lets put traffic lights on roundabouts.

I remember driving down the M50 back when it first opened, I was on holiday here and asking my wife ... why are there only two lanes , there was space for 3 but they kept that stupid green space between carrageways ( don't get me started on lack of barriers )

Navan Junction

Stark wrote:

Where did you find the pic?

Think it was in one of the free sheets yesterday, and might have been on the news night before.

The tolling plan for this road will be interesting - Navan will have a toll to the north to get to Kells, a toll to the Sth to get to Dublin.

Now it is possible that a toll to the west and East will be added.

Meath already had the dubious title of the most tolled county in Ireland, including the only road to be tolled twice in the same county. Now we could end with the first town to have tolls to the north, sth, east and west

LostinBlanch

Irish and Proud wrote:

...or do you mean BLUNDERSTOWN?

I don't think there was any blunder involved here. This has been planned for a long, long time IMO.

Irish and Proud wrote:

The M3 should have followed the western route (Dunshaughlin to Navan Section) which would have been far shorter and less troublesome!

Of course it should, but then again you're assuming that whoever was responsible for choosing the route was interested in providing good value for money, and that other factors were not at play. I'd like to think that the choice of route etc is above board, but remain to be convinced. I'd be concerned that by the time we find out it'll be too late.

westtip

Davidth88 wrote:

Or as I put it to the local FF cadidate when she called.



Yes I am sure when the myopic twits who designed the M50 that I am sure they thought , 2 lanes will be enough , ohhh we won't bother with real junctions , ohhhh lets put traffic lights on roundabouts.

I remember driving down the M50 back when it first opened, I was on holiday here and asking my wife ... why are there only two lanes , there was space for 3 but they kept that stupid green space between carrageways ( don't get me started on lack of barriers )

david I can se your point - the M50 was a disastrous design from day one - probably the biggest mistake wasn't the 3 lane issue but not having free flow junctions - although I agree there was no need for a park down the middle of the motorway - an orbital light railway might have worked (see the light railway that runs down the middle of the freeway from Chicago O'Hare airpoprt into downtown Chicago), had we really been thinking we could have had a new railway system running down the middle of all our shiny new motorways, now there is a thought and created real communication and transport corridors - my point about no need for motorway is I don't really believe - although I have no empirical evidence yet to support it, that there will be the volume of traffic throughout the day to justify a fully fledged tolled motorway along this route - HQDC near the main towns on route and 2+1 elsewhere probably would work - its just a view. There is no doubt this new road will lead to more long distance commuting and suburban sprawl and further adoption of the LA urban planning model, in some ways that is inevitable. Regarding the routing of this motoway - I think it is a pity it is being planned to be so near Dublin - The wider arc route (N51/52/80) linking Drogheda, Navan, Mullingar, Portlaise would be a more national strategic route linking all parts of the country together enabling virtually everyone to avoid the M50 unless they were Dublin bound. But who am I a humble citizen to know better than the great intelect of the Minister of Transport and the NRA

Chris_533976

Navan Junction wrote:

Meath already had the dubious title of the most tolled county in Ireland, including the only road to be tolled twice in the same county. Now we could end with the first town to have tolls to the north, sth, east and west

Thats just going to cause war.

Davidth88

As they said in the film...

'Build it and they will come'

All the evidence is that any road space you build will be filled up. Anyway build at least a dual-carrageway because it's safer for sure.

I like the idea of the orbital railway , although can you imagine getting to/from the stations , I bet they would forget/not bother to build pedestrian bridges

The motorway that leads to the airport in Amsterdam also has a railway running down the middle.

bk

Davidth88 wrote:

I remember driving down the M50 back when it first opened, I was on holiday here and asking my wife ... why are there only two lanes , there was space for 3 but they kept that stupid green space between carrageways ( don't get me started on lack of barriers )

Well the large green space in the middle was left there as they had always planned on upgrading the M50 to three lanes at a future date and therefore at least they left the space for it.

What they didn't forsee was that the M50 would fill up so quickly and that they would have to add the third lane so soon.

As for the new outer orbital, I think this goes along with the plan to move Dublin Port out of Dublin, to up by Balbriggan, complete the eastern bypass and open it up to normal traffic and therefore be able to ban cars from Dublin city.

The idea being to link the outer orbital to the new port in Balbriggan, so that trucks heading for Cork etc. can avoid Dublin and the M50 (also any other traffic not heading to Dublin). It is actually not at all a bad idea and is similar to what is done in other modern European cities the same size as Dublin.

D'Peoples Voice

Navan Junction wrote:

Meath already had the dubious title of the most tolled county in Ireland, including the only road to be tolled twice in the same county. Now we could end with the first town to have tolls to the north, sth, east and west

Perhaps Navan Urban Council should start a congestion charging scheme and perhaps increase the price of on street parking followed by an introduction of pedestrianised streets - now that would be funny!:D

Davidth88

Well the large green space in the middle was left there as they had always planned on upgrading the M50 to three lanes at a future date and therefore at least they left the space for it.

Really ? I was under the impression this was ' in lieu ' of barriers. I heard some twit from the NRA defending why 20 mt of central reservation was used instead of barriers... never heard so much twaddle in my life .... if that guy had seen how long it takes to stop a 40 ton lorry at 80kph ......... ( having seen what damage a 40tonner can do at this speed first hand when one ended up embedded in my neighbours front room having destroyed a bus stop/lamp post/telegraph pole/ hedge and travelled about 200 mts )

Anyway are they not having to change all the bridges on the newly widened M50 ?

lostexpectation

LostinBlanch wrote:

Some people will say that this was the plan all along. Now a more cynical person might ask who owns lands adjacent to any proposed interchange? Lands that "could" be rezoned by the county council and increase hugely in value. Heaven forbid that anyone who has interests in such lands should be found to be involved in such rezoning. :rolleyes:

they said they didn't bring the m3 to the west of tara because of peoples homes...

spacetweek

Davidth88 wrote:

I remember driving down the M50 back when it first opened, I was on holiday here and asking my wife ... why are there only two lanes , there was space for 3 but they kept that stupid green space between carrageways

Why would they do that, when the 2 extra lanes weren't needed until nearly 10 years later? The more road space you provide, the faster it fills. Correct practice is to provide what's needed for the short term, not the long term. Later, as the road fills, you widen.

lostexpectation

I can't find a proper map for this on the NRA site or anywhere, I've drawn where i think it will go, http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2007/08/outer-orbital-motorway-where-it.html

click view larger map and post a link to your version...

hmm googlemaps have new embed feature like youtube but it doesn't work on the boards, damnit

[html]<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108692096314893578946.00043862d905b7ac3adcc&ll=53.427537,-6.778564&spn=0.36654,0.561839&om=0&output=embed&s=AARTsJoKjkZ_P17bpXfxRQ3ljVhNnERcwg"></iframe><br/><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108692096314893578946.00043862d905b7ac3adcc&ll=53.427537,-6.778564&spn=0.36654,0.561839&om=0&source=embed&quot; style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left;font-size:small">View Larger Map</a>[/html]

Hotblack Desiato

spacetweek wrote:

Why would they do that, when the 2 extra lanes weren't needed until nearly 10 years later? The more road space you provide, the faster it fills. Correct practice is to provide what's needed for the short term, not the long term. Later, as the road fills, you widen.

Widening a road is one thing, demolishing and rebuilding every bridge along a motorway because you couldn't be bothered to cheaply build in a bit of future-proofing quite another. Not just very expensive to upgrade but very disruptive.

Andrew Duffy

All the bridges on the M50 are being retained. Some new ones are being built to carry traffic movements in the improved interchanges.

Xyndrix

lostexpectation wrote:

I can't find a proper map for this on the NRA site or anywhere, I've drawn where i think it will go, http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2007/08/outer-orbital-motorway-where-it.html

I'm not sure about this. Much as I'm inclined to think the worst of the Blundelstown interchange and its future purpose, linking in with this outer orbital route may not actually be part of the plan. Dempsey was interviewed on local radio shortly after getting Transport and he mentioned this project. He said it would pass north of Trim, south of Ballivor and I'm pretty sure he also said north of Navan as well. In any case, it would be absolutely daft to route another motorway through this area, if only because of all the delays and trouble it would cause (Clearly, these are the only issues that might concern the government as heritage and the destruction of national monuments don't concern them in the slightest). Of course, you never know for sure until the route options are published so there may yet be some more craziness ahead.

Stark

They'll probably want it inside the M1 and M4 tolls, can't have people getting away with not paying them by taking the outer orbital route

Navan Junction

Whats the bets they say it can't go north of Navan because it can't be built over Tara Mines?

LostinBlanch

lostexpectation wrote:

they said they didn't bring the m3 to the west of tara because of peoples homes...

A Fig leaf IMO. They're just using that as an excuse, if it wasn't that it'd be something else. I'm not wishing to sound flippant about this but the fact remains that some peoples homes would have to be compulsorily purchased no matter what route was chosen, though I think it was about 5 or 10 less in this case.

Like I said before I'm concerned that this was just used as an excuse.

lostexpectation

Xyndrix wrote:

I'm not sure about this. Much as I'm inclined to think the worst of the Blundelstown interchange and its future purpose, linking in with this outer orbital route may not actually be part of the plan. Dempsey was interviewed on local radio shortly after getting Transport and he mentioned this project. He said it would pass north of Trim, south of Ballivor and I'm pretty sure he also said north of Navan as well. In any case, it would be absolutely daft to route another motorway through this area, if only because of all the delays and trouble it would cause (Clearly, these are the only issues that might concern the government as heritage and the destruction of national monuments don't concern them in the slightest). Of course, you never know for sure until the route options are published so there may yet be some more craziness ahead.

ok well if thats the case my drawing is wrong,but there say the total opposite on the rte news bit in the OP, i mean totally guessing but that sounds too close to the N52, unless it was replacement for that...

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2007/0801/1185230272740.html


oh but look this is what your talking about, is this a story on the same study earlier in the year?

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14668

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0224/breaking18.htm
It is understood the new 100km (62 mile) road would begin at Drogheda, cross the N3 between Navan and Kells and heading southwards past Trim before continuing to Kilcock where there would be an interchange with the M4.

MrPudding

spacetweek wrote:

Why would they do that, when the 2 extra lanes weren't needed until nearly 10 years later? The more road space you provide, the faster it fills. Correct practice is to provide what's needed for the short term, not the long term. Later, as the road fills, you widen.

They built the last section of the m50 knowing that what they already had was not sufficient. In fact, given how long it took them to build it I reckon they would have know pretty early on that it was not wide enough, but continued to build the remain sections as per the orininal 1960', (I believe) plan.

Fcuking tards.

MrP

D'Peoples Voice

As I said before when this SAME topic came up, not sure if it was
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=223187
or
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054926902

I'd prefer the outer bypass to start by,

Upgrade existing N51 between Drogheda & Navan(via Slane)

Redesignate and upgrade the R161 between Navan and Kinegad(via Trim) to the N51 instead of the current N51 from Navan to Devlin

redesignate and upgrade the R401 to the N51 from Kinegad to Kildare(via Edenderry and Rathangan),

redesignate and upgrade the R415 to the N51 from Kildare to Crookstwon on the N9

redesignate and upgrade R747 the N51 from Crookstown on the N9 to Arklow(via Baltinglass)

The most expensive part of any road is USUALLY land acquisition, so if these roads needs to be improved ANYWAY, why not upgrade the existing roads, after we have to maintain these roads in the future, so the more we build the most costly it will be. Should be far easier to get planning permission for an area where there is an existing road! As regards CPO people's houses , yeah it's tough but while it may cost a lot up front, in the long term it will pay ifself off.

Xyndrix

lostexpectation wrote:

ok well if thats the case my drawing is wrong,but there say the total opposite on the rte news bit in the OP, i mean totally guessing but that sounds too close to the N52, unless it was replacement for that...

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2007/0801/1185230272740.html


oh but look this is what your talking about, is this a story on the same study earlier in the year?

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14668

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0224/breaking18.htm
It is understood the new 100km (62 mile) road would begin at Drogheda, cross the N3 between Navan and Kells and heading southwards past Trim before continuing to Kilcock where there would be an interchange with the M4.

Sounds like the same thing alright. Just found this article which appeared in the Meath Chronicle at the end of June. Here Dempsey says "north of Navan... north of Trim...south of Ballivor" as well. Looks like RTE have got it wrong so, ...although if this was Cullen talking I mightn't be so sure.... hold on, this is Dempsey... he's not quite as bad as Cullen at getting his facts wrong on things like this, is he??

I guess we'll have to wait till the NRA have some maps online before we can be really sure.

Navan Junction

lostexpectation wrote:

that sounds too close to the N52, unless it was replacement for that...

That's what it's being called by the politicians up here - the M52

Xyndrix wrote:

this is Dempsey... he's not quite as bad as Cullen at getting his facts wrong on things like this, is he??

He won't get his facts wrong by accident on a Meath roads project

Xyndrix

Navan Junction wrote:

He won't get his facts wrong by accident on a Meath roads project

Yeah, you're right. That would be quite extraordinary if he did, now that I think about it.

Carawaystick

Navan Junction wrote:

Whats the bets they say it can't go north of Navan because it can't be built over Tara Mines?

roflmao



DPeoples, I'd agree wit most of the route, but I'd go Trim-Enfield-New route to Kildare

I'm always amazed with national secondary routes about the place that go nowhere really, while the route from the east of Wicklow and Gorey is a mule track. Twas even worse when the fert in Arklow was open, trucks going through Tinaheley and Aughrim to get to anywhere west.

Zoney

Agree with Carawaystick - the route corridor south of the Wicklow mountains is not well served, there should be a national secondary road.

Still, having travelled it a fair number of times over the last decade or so, it's certainly immensely better nowadays with most parts having a servicable or even good surface (even if no hard shoulders) and far better signposting on the R roads, even if not yet fully comprehensive.

It's a very big gap in the national road network between M50 to the north and N80 to the south; between the N81 and N11.

JupiterKid

The N52 is still pretty appalling. They've improved a very short stretch just west of Delvin but most of the route is very poor. We do need a new motorway but it needs to be contained in case it just causes more urban sprawl.

Irish and Proud

Right! I'm going to set the record straight on the M50 green space issue!

Now, the old Irish Standard for a 4 lane motorway cross section is:

2 x 3.00m Verges
2 x 3.00m Hard Shoulders
4 x 3.75m Lanes
2 x 1.00m Median Strips
1 x 7.00m Grass Median

Up to recently, all Irish motorways followed the above specification. Now, a tighter configuration using the concrete barrier has been used more frequently since the NRA decided to follow international trends around 2001 - the first such road is the N8 Cashel Bypass opened in 2004. This current standard is as follows:

2 x 2.00m Verges
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
4 x 3.50m Lanes
2 x 1.00m Median Strips
1 x 0.60m Concrete Barrier

Now, back to the main point - the M50 followed the former standard, but because the engineers foresaw the need for extra capacity, a 15m median was provided between the junctions to allow for construction of 2 extra lanes (while maintaining a 7.5 median), which in turn would allow the initial outer lanes to become auxiliary lanes. However, the recent economic boom arrived and by 2000, engineers realised that the original upgrade plans would be insufficient and that a far more robust scheme was required. Now, the M50 upgrade will include the following:

2 x 2.00m Verges
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
6 x 3.50m Running Lanes
2 x 3.50m Auxiliary Lanes
2 x 1.00m (min) Median Strips
1 (or 2) x 0.60m Concrete Barriers
5 x Major Interchange Reconfigurations (multiple new structures)
2 x Major Interchange Extensions (1 extra road bridge)
3 x Minor Interchange Extensions (left turn slips only)

An interesting point, the old Irish standard is now described in the NRA-DMRB as a wide motorway cross section. The M4 Kilcock to Kinnegead Motorway uses such, even though it commenced construction in 2003. The N4 link-up to the McNeads Bridge scheme uses the standard (concrete barrier) cross section though it's part of the above scheme. I guess a safe bet is that the wide motorway standard is used if engineers foresee a need for extra lanes - provision for extra lanes on the M4 were mentioned at the time of construction.

Regards

Victor

Irish and Proud wrote:

Now, the old Irish Standard for a 4 lane motorway cross section is:

2 x 3.00m Verges
2 x 3.00m Hard Shoulders
4 x 3.75m Lanes
2 x 1.00m Median Strips
1 x 7.00m Grass Median

For clarity that is a dual 2-lane motorway.

paulm17781

Ahhhh....Sense...

breakingnews.ie wrote:

The Green Party has said it has 'serious reservations' over Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey's plan to prioritise the building of the Dublin outer orbital motorway.

The junior coalition partner claimed that building more motorways will lead to greater urban sprawl and will not solve the country's transport problems.

The Greens said priority should be given to new commuter rail projects and they said they will make this clear to their Fianna Fáil counterparts.

lostexpectation

So i was totally wrong about the route of the road,I blame RTE for saying "south of Drogheda towards Navan, south of Trim" does that sound like its going north or south of Navan?

Raskolnikov

I'll always remember when the M50 was first opened, I saw a satircal drawing (can anyone remember which paper this was?) detailing plans for a Dundalk-Mulingar-Kildare orbital motorway, it was so ridiculous at the time I actually laughed out loud.