Why is this the situation with buying council housing?

seahorse

Am just curious as to people’s opinions on this: If a person buys their home under one of the affordable housing schemes, as we all know, they pay a discounted price; but if a person buys a council home, from FCC for example, they get the option to buy after the first year and a 3% discount for every year they’ve been resident in it. That 3% is applicable for every year of rental for the first ten years, so after ten years you’re talking 30%, and it stops there, which is fair enough.

What I’m wondering is, why don’t the councils allow their tenants to purchase their homes with the 30% discount from the off rather than having them wait ten years? It’s a far smaller reduction than is the case in a lot of houses sold under the affordable housing schemes, and if a person is granted a council house to begin with of course they’re not in the financial position to buy on the open market.

As for the people housed by the councils ten years ago; God help them trying to buy their homes by today’s inflated prices, as the 30% knocked off the asking price will be neither here nor there to them taking the rise in property prices that have happened over the last decade into consideration.

I think the ten year wait is also a bad idea in terms of how it affects a person in getting a mortgage from the banks as they’re then ten years older and less likely to qualify for a more extended mortgage, which taking their financial situation into consideration, they're more likely to need.

antoinolachtnai

Because it's public housing. Public housing is not necessarily supposed to be the first step on the property buying ladder. It's supposed to put a roof over the head of a person who wouldn't otherwise be able to get one.

A lot of people would say that selling off public housing is just not a good idea. The council will need that housing again in the future, and you can only sell it once.

seahorse

I'm sure the people who live in them don't regard their own homes as some sort of "public" amenity. I know I wouldn't if I lived in a council house.

One young couple I know were housed by the council about five or six years ago. He got a half decent job soon after they were housed; she was minding their new baby at the time. Their daughter is starting senior infants in a couple of weeks and her mother has been working part time this last year since their child began her first year of school. They're in a position to get a mortgage now, but their reduction on their home is only 15/18%. 15/18% of the full market price is nothing compared to the deal they'd get in an affordable house, but they don't want to move because they don't want to be forced to disrupt their little girls schooling. That's the only home that child has ever known and all her friends are there.

It was hard enough for my friend settling miles away and building a life in an area where she knew nobody, miles away from family and friends, and now she has to disrupt her child and her whole life to move again if she wants to buy. These are the types of situations I'm talking about when I say I don't understand the sense in the councils regulations as they currently stand. I know my friend would take a mortgage out on her home in a moments notice if it offered anything like the same deal as an affordable housing scheme.

Slydice

If he can afford to get a mortgage, would he not think about buying a house and giving the council house back to the council so they can give the house to a family less fortunate than them?

Jo King

This is typical of the dependency culture rampant in this country. People can't or won't do anything unless they can maximise the "free" money from the government. People who have done nothing to house themselves but sign an application form and a lease now want a house sold to them at a substantial discount! Other people who have large mortgages and pay a lot of tax have to subsidise this nonsense. If people's fortunes improve after they are allocated a council house they should be turfed out of it and made to live in the real world.

seahorse

Slydice wrote:

If he can afford to get a mortgage, would he not think about buying a house and giving the council house back to the council so they can give the house to a family less fortunate than them?

No, they wouldn't, unsurprisingly; as the mortgage they can now afford would probably buy them a one bedroom apartment on the open market.

seahorse

Jo King wrote:

This is typical of the dependency culture rampant in this country. People can't or won't do anything unless they can maximise the "free" money from the government. People who have done nothing to house themselves but sign an application form and a lease now want a house sold to them at a substantial discount! Other people who have large mortgages and pay a lot of tax have to subsidise this nonsense. If people's fortunes improve after they are allocated a council house they should be turfed out of it and made to live in the real world.

If 'these people' didn't live in a world more real and more harsh than the one most first home-buyers experience they wouldn't find themselves renting council homes in the first place. Many people "sign an application" and spend upwards of ten years raising their children in damp and squalid conditions in two-roomed hovels while working for buttons and waiting on the remote possibility of a home. I should know; I once lived there myself.

People fortunate enough to hold opinions as ignorant as yours ought to count themselves lucky: Maybe it's time you spent some time in the "real world" yourself.

K_P

So their choice is a house at a 15-18% discount or move to an affordable housing unit and getting a 25-30% discount. Seems like a pretty good deal for your friends whatever way you look at it.

There are thousands of FTBs struggling to scrape together enough of a deposit and desperately trying to qualify for enough of a mortgage to buy a place. Everyone's struggling, myself included. If I was getting a 15-18% discount on a purchase price, you wouldn't hear me complaining.

Another option, they could wait another 4 or 5 years. With the way prices are going at the moment, they might have the full 30% discount and a cheaper selling price.

antoinolachtnai

The OP does have a point though. What exactly is the local authorities' plan with all this housing. Why build new houses to sell at a 30 percent discount when you are only willing to sell existing houses at a 15 or 20 percent discount? Is there a plan or are they just making this up as they go along?

K_P

It's all a result of successive governments pushing owner occupation above all other and to the detriment of all other forms of tenure. But I agree, it seems ridiculous.

foxy06

Jo King wrote:

This is typical of the dependency culture rampant in this country. People can't or won't do anything unless they can maximise the "free" money from the government. People who have done nothing to house themselves but sign an application form and a lease now want a house sold to them at a substantial discount! Other people who have large mortgages and pay a lot of tax have to subsidise this nonsense. If people's fortunes improve after they are allocated a council house they should be turfed out of it and made to live in the real world.

Are you for real? I live in a council estate and was waiting for 6 years for a home of my own. I have spent a fortune making it liveable all at my own expense and hard work. I wont be able to afford to buy it for at least 5 years but by then I will have paid 26,000 Euro in rent to the council as well as the taxes myself and my partner pay through paye. NOBODY is subsidising me! I was paying 3 times as much in rent before and often had to get a credit union loan just to do the weekly shop and pay for childcare! If you think living in a council estate is easy you are on another planet altogether. I would love to live in a private estate where I can let my kids out to play instead of confining them to the back garden for fear of them turning into little brats like the ones haging around outside. But that is the real world and you obviously haven't a clue about it.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

Are you for real? I live in a council estate and was waiting for 6 years for a home of my own. I have spent a fortune making it liveable all at my own expense and hard work. I wont be able to afford to buy it for at least 5 years but by then I will have paid 26,000 Euro in rent to the council as well as the taxes myself and my partner pay through paye.

everyone/most people pay rent or a mortgage everyone who has a job pays paye HOWEVER you benefit from everyones paye whereas everyone does not benefit from yours as they are not entitled to / dont need council housing or affordable housing or whatever. im not saying you are not entitled to it it jsut sticks in my throat when people complain that they are not getting enough "free"/"cheap"/"reduced" benefits

NOBODY is subsidising me! I was paying 3 times as much in rent before

thats a contradiction in terms

edit; also that 26K in rent you will have paid by the time you can afford to buy is a fraction of the reduction you will get off the house as even if you have just moved in in 5 years you will have a 15% discount which on a 200K house is 30K and I have not seen a house for 200K in quite a while so you will likely get a much better discount. thats not even taking into account the obviously miniscule rent compared to the free market you are paying at the moment.

foxy06

Oh right so the money we pay in tax is for what exactly? Tax is not just used for council housing there is an education system and healthcare system that also uses it. I'm sure my tax is getting used for something.

And its not a contradiction because the house I was in before was at least twice the size and in a much nicer area so the rent on this house is relevent to its size and will be increased if I earn more money. Also when I moved in it was barely habitable and if and when I decide to buy it I would be very suprised if it was more expensive than 230,000 because it is so small.

foxy06

Also that 26,000 is what I will be paying in the future not what I have already paid.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

Oh right so the money we pay in tax is for what exactly?

ye sorry just re read what i wrote about the tax and your right everyone benefits from everyones tax people who are on benefits /social housing just benefit more but there are obviously sound reasons for this.

And its not a contradiction because the house I was in before was at least twice the size and in a much nicer area so the rent on this house is relevent to its size and will be increased if I earn more money.

26K rent over 5 years is 5,200 euro a year which is 433.33 a month. in dublin(maybe your not in dublin) student accomadation is dearer than that. for that according to daft you will get a 2 bed apartment in clonakilty in cork. everything else on daft other than student accom is more expensive that what you are paying as far as i can see from my very quick search. again im not saying your not entitled to it i just dont think you should be trying to imply you have gotten a raw deal

Also when I moved in it was barely habitable and if and when I decide to buy it I would be very suprised if it was more expensive than 230,000 because it is so small.

are you really trying to argue that you will not be in a better position if/when you go to buy your house than another first time buyer of the same age who has not lived in a council house for the last however many years you have?

foxy06

No financially I will be in a better position but socially do you honestly think I will be better off raising my family in a council estate?
The rent does work out at 433.33 but when I earn a cent more it goes up.
What really annoys me is when people post things like when your financial situation improves you should be turfed out! It's just that easy to get up and go after putting years of work into your home and building a relationship with the community around you. I am a lot better off now than when I was renting privatly but this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that and anyone who knows the struggles I've had financially in the past few years will agree.

Off topic slightly but I have a friend who is raising her two children alone with benefits and has to lie to welfare saying her rent is 1200 euro a month when it is actually 1400 because you simply cant get accomadation for that price in this area. She has a boy and a girl and she only has two bedrooms. If she works and pays a babysitter they take her earnings from her rent allowance so she CAN'T earn any money to pay her own way. She will be no better off until she gets a house from the council and she has been told it will be at least 3 years.
Unless you have been stuck in the poverty trap you have no idea how hard it is.

seahorse

foxy06 wrote:

No financially I will be in a better position but socially do you honestly think I will be better off raising my family in a council estate?

That is something it wouldn't dawn on a lot of people who've never had to raise their kids in yahoo-land to consider Foxy; they don't consider the trade off between social and financial gain and loss, because they've been fortunate enough never to have had personal experience of it.

Some people entertain the notion that buying a council home is like winning some sort of lottery; they'd want to think on. If I were to choose between buying a home at full market value in a private estate which I'd been renting for ten years, or buying a home in a council estate I'd been renting for ten years at a 30% percent discount, I know where I'd prefer to raise my son and I'm pretty sure I know where you'd prefer to raise your kids; and for all their mouthing, you can be certain the people who look down their noses on council tenants would feel exactly the same way when it comes to where they'd prefer to raise their own.

foxy06 wrote:

Unless you have been stuck in the poverty trap you have no idea how hard it is.

How true; and on top of all the other aspects of the poverty trap that are so difficult to deal with, there is the stigma of middle-class public opinion that contends you are some sort of layabout scrounger, which is so extreme that some even hold the opinion, as evidenced on this thread, that should your fortunes improve you ought to be "turfed out" of your own home!!!

A good deal of council tenants are single mothers. There are 180.000 single parent families in this country and I am sick to the gills hearing people run down single mothers; at least the Americans have a term for the men who are 50% responsible for this situation - 'deadbeat dads'; a very apt term, that doesn't exist in Irish terminology, unfortunately.

SkepticOne

Social housing should be kept as social housing and not be sold. If it is sold then it is unavailable to those in genuine social need.

So-called "Affordable housing" schemes and inititatives should also be scrapped. They serve no social purpose.

If, however, valuable state assets must sold, they should be sold at full market value so that replacement units can be built.

PeakOutput

SkepticOne wrote:

So-called "Affordable housing" schemes and inititatives should also be scrapped. They serve no social purpose.

i disagree..........the process/system should be changed but they do indeed benefit society

Cantab.

foxy06 wrote:

No financially I will be in a better position but socially do you honestly think I will be better off raising my family in a council estate?

You've been given a roof over your head for you and your family. What more do you expect from the taxpayer?

foxy06 wrote:

The rent does work out at 433.33 but when I earn a cent more it goes up.
What really annoys me is when people post things like when your financial situation improves you should be turfed out! It's just that easy to get up and go after putting years of work into your home and building a relationship with the community around you. I am a lot better off now than when I was renting privatly but this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that and anyone who knows the struggles I've had financially in the past few years will agree.

You'll find it impossible to rent a house for €433.33 anywhere in Dublin. What are you complaining about? I pay €600 a month for a ROOM in a shared house. If I had a large family, I'd be looking at €1,500 - €2,000 for a modest house in suburbia.

foxy06 wrote:

What really annoys me is when people post things like when your financial situation improves you should be turfed out! It's just that easy to get up and go after putting years of work into your home and building a relationship with the community around you. I am a lot better off now than when I was renting privatly but this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that and anyone who knows the struggles I've had financially in the past few years will agree.

No you're not entitled to own your own home. You're entitled to a roof over your head, food, warmth, safety and security. Ownership of an asset worth several hundred thousand Euro is a privilige, not an entitlement, that people must work bloody hard for.

foxy06

Cantab. wrote:

You've been given a roof over your head for you and your family. What more do you expect from the taxpayer?


You'll find it impossible to rent a house for €433.33 anywhere in Dublin. What are you complaining about? I pay €600 a month for a ROOM in a shared house. If I had a large family, I'd be looking at €1,500 - €2,000 for a modest house in suburbia.

I am a bloody taxpayer!!! and I work bloody hard for my home too!! If I was off on the piss five nights a week I would understand what you are saying but I have been working hard since I was 13 years old (I am 25 now) and I have paid 1300 euro in rent every month for the last 3 years and 1100 a month for the 3 years before that and have often had to do without the basic essentials because we just didn't have it and now that I am in a council house I am entilted to buy it because I have put my heart and soul into making it a home for me and my kids and I struggle every day to make sure they are well looked after and its not that big a discount after a year of tenancy.

I am happy that you have your opinion because it means that you have never had to go through the hardships that me and my family and the majority of people that live on council estates have had to and I am happy for you. I bet there are thousands of people that wish they could argue the same thing in ignorance.

I can assure you that if my house was offered on the market for the discount i was getting it at they would be hard pushed for takers because no one wants to live in a council estate unless they have to. Just today I had to grab my children and bring them inside because one of the locals thought 4 in the afternoon was a nice time to go Joyriding.

No you're not entitled to own your own home. You're entitled to a roof over your head, food, warmth, safety and security. Ownership of an asset worth several hundred thousand Euro is a privilige, not an entitlement, that people must work bloody hard for.

I know its a privilage and that is why I am going to be paying a hell of a lot of money for it! It's not like they wrap it in a bow and hand it to you!! You do actually have to get a mortgage to pay for a house even in a place like this.

Cantab.

foxy06 wrote:

I am a bloody taxpayer!!! and I work bloody hard for my home too!! If I was off on the piss five nights a week I would understand what you are saying but I have been working hard since I was 13 years old (I am 25 now) and I have paid 1300 euro in rent every month for the last 3 years and 1100 a month for the 3 years before that and have often had to do without the basic essentials because we just didn't have it and now that I am in a council house I am entilted to buy it because I have put my heart and soul into making it a home for me and my kids and I struggle every day to make sure they are well looked after and its not that big a discount after a year of tenancy.

I am happy that you have your opinion because it means that you have never had to go through the hardships that me and my family and the majority of people that live on council estates have had to and I am happy for you. I bet there are thousands of people that wish they could argue the same thing in ignorance.

I can assure you that if my house was offered on the market for the discount i was getting it at they would be hard pushed for takers because no one wants to live in a council estate unless they have to. Just today I had to grab my children and bring them inside because one of the locals thought 4 in the afternoon was a nice time to go Joyriding.



I know its a privilage and that is why I am going to be paying a hell of a lot of money for it! It's not like they wrap it in a bow and hand it to you!! You do actually have to get a mortgage to pay for a house even in a place like this.

I'm sure you've been given a council house because you need one. I'm not disputing that. It's just in a previous post you said:

foxy06 wrote:

this is my only chance now to get on the property ladder by buying my house and surely I'm entitled to that

You're not entitled to own your own home. If you want to own your own home, you'll have to go out and work for it. The government should not be contributing to people's personal wealth by way of discounted council houses (and affordable houses).

foxy06

I am working for it I dont get it for free and If I was doing it for my own personal wealth I would have to wait for 20 years to make it worth my while because of the clawback clause. I don't want personal wealth I want a happy family and our own home that I Pay for.

PeakOutput

the difference is foxy you are arguing from a personal perspective while he is arguing from a general perspective. its not ignorance its just a different point of view. I agree with alot of what he says from a general for the greater good perspective but I have sympathy for people in your situation also.

one thing i will say is that assuming your circumstances did not change dramatically I dont see why you should be in social housing if you can afford to pay standard rents as you have been for the last five years or whatever. if you are simply doing it so you can save the extra money for a house i think thats bang out of order but then your circumstances could of changed aswell so im not making any personal judgements.

you used entitled in your post again your entitled to buy the home under the current system put in place by the government its not because of any ethical or moral or human right issue that you must be allowed to own your own home and that is what cantab was trying to say i believe. the very system that entitles you to buy your house is the same one that has created an area you dont want to live in.

you mention council estates alot and as far as i know they are on the way out anyway as it is well known they that areas of just social housing become gettoised however you seem to blame the area whereas i would blame the people (minority or not) who have a lack of respect for things they have not worked for. if all of the houses in your estate were offered for sale with the discount you can get they would be snapped up in a second as it is the people that make the area not the houses.

the main thing that strikes me from your posts is that almost everything you say is relative. you say you work really hard for your house and money and family and I am sure you do but you do not work any harder than someone with the same number of kids who earns 3 times as much as you but pays 3 times as much rent because they cannot get a council house (regardless of weather they want one or not) or indeed the person who earns 3 times as much but has 8 kids and still cant get a council house due to their income. these people would be relatively as "poor" as you. As these people would more than likely "begrudge" you of the fact you are getting so many benefits from the state, and still do not seem happy/satisfied with them and indeed ungrateful of the opportunities you have been given, you would view them as ignorant.

foxy06

I was about to write a big long reply but the gist of my argument is...

Why am I not entitled to a 3% (7500euro) discount when buying a house in a council estate that nobody else would want to buy and that I made habitable out of my own pocket?
If a private seller was having trouble selling they would probably drop the price by more than that? The main point I am making is that I AM PAYING FOR THE HOUSE I AM NOT GETTING IT FOR FREE!

Also I dont get any other benefits and I pay tax.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

Why am I not entitled to a 3% (7500euro) discount when buying a house in a council estate that nobody else would want to buy and that I made habitable out of my own pocket?

i dont particularly begrudge you the discount and never said otherwise.

however were the house is is irrelevant, if i am not mistaken, you get 3% for every year you have lived there off the MARKET VALUE of the property. the market value takes into consideration how many people do or do not want to live there.

If a private seller was having trouble selling they would probably drop the price by more than that? The main point I am making is that I AM PAYING FOR THE HOUSE I AM NOT GETTING IT FOR FREE!

you are paying up to 30% less than anyone else who wants that house would have to pay after having already benefitted from MUCH cheaper rent for that period of time and I(personally, not that you should particularly care what i personally feel) still dont begrudge you that.

What I have a problem with is you still somehow manage to make it sound like you have gotten a raw deal..........it is that simple.

foxy06

No I am paying 3% less than what other people are paying and I also lose any other benefits I had while I was paying the massive rent so financially I am no better off. And is 7500 off the market value of a council house that you will have to live in for at least 20 years or you will be seriously financially penalised a great deal? I think not. My Aunt actually owed the council money after paying them 8 years to BUY her house so don't ever worry about the council wasting taxpayers money. They could teach us a trick or two!

foxy06

PeakOutput wrote:

What I have a problem with is you still somehow manage to make it sound like you have gotten a raw deal..........it is that simple.

I don't think I have gotten a raw deal but when people who have no clue tell me I should be "turfed out" of my home and have no opportunity to buy it and should just get out to the real world then I take it personally because I know the real world better than most.

PeakOutput

foxy06 wrote:

No I am paying 3% less than what other people are paying and I also lose any other benefits I had while I was paying the massive rent so financially I am no better off.

you said yourself you wont be able to consider buying until at least 5 years time so at that stage you will have a 15% reduction worked up so i dont understand where you are getting this 3% from.

And is 7500 off the market value of a council house that you will have to live in for at least 20 years or you will be financially penalised a great deal? I think not.

even if it was only 7,500 it is 7,500 that 90% of people are not able to avail off now it is not alot but it is still more than anyone else can get

I don't think I have gotten a raw deal but when people who have no clue tell me I should be "turfed out" of my home and have no opportunity to buy it and should just get out to the real world then I take it personally because I know the real world better than most.

ok i can see were you are coming from then i suppose whereas I do think that the option to buy the house should be replaced with an option along the lines of affordable housing so the original house is kept as an asset for the next family that needs it.

dodgyme

foxy06 - if you get something from the council it is being subsidised by the taxpayer, thems the facts. It seems to me that the people replying to you are doing so because their houses are not being subsidised by the tax payer. As someone not from a rich background who is paying throught the nose to buy in a part of dublin where there aren't schools or decent public transport etec etc and where half the houses are rented (alot to Eastern healthboard) my tendency is to agree with those arguing against you. Although I think you are trying to do the right thing for you and your family and as such are in motive the same as me and anyone arguing against you.

antoinolachtnai

Why turf her out and displace a family? Why not rent the new affordable house to the next family that needs a house and let her buy the one she is in at a good discount?

Alternatively, if they really feel that it's a property they want to hold, why don't they just say so, and refuse altogether to sell it?

This isn't about the individuals involved, it's about the council's property strategy.

foxy06

There are actually a few houses in this estate that they have refused to sell and I wont actually know until next year if I will even be able to buy this house. They do refuse to sell houses occasionally. The same way they refuse to buy back houses if the seller won't drop below market value.

Moonbeam

If the council did just rent houses to the people that needed them and when those people were in a position to buy or move out of council housing did so maybe it would be a lot cheaper for the tax payer and more people could be housed.
Everyone is entitled to have a home but not to own one.

antoinolachtnai

It wouldn't necessarily be cheaper. The government might just end up with a lot of capital tied up. They might be better to use the capital for something else.

Good luck to foxy with finding somewhere to buy!

Jo King

Am I missing something. Does no a rent of €433 a month in place of a rent of €1300 a month not mean a subsidy of about €867 a month? From who? The taxpayer! If everybody left school at 13 and started families almost straight away who would pay for all the free houses? If it wasn't for people who get themselves educated and make them selves financially secure before starting families the whole country would fall apart.

PeakOutput

Jo King wrote:

Am I missing something. Does no a rent of €433 a month in place of a rent of €1300 a month not mean a subsidy of about €867 a month?

it saves the tenant that much a month but it does not cost the council that much. The council are not paying 1300 a month for the house. they build the house and then rent it out at a rate the person can afford. the only thing it costs the council is the construction cost of the house initially(and some maintenance costs probably)

If everybody left school at 13 and started families almost straight away who would pay for all the free houses?

the eu probably but hopefully not for ignorant cnuts

If it wasn't for people who get themselves educated and make them selves financially secure before starting families the whole country would fall apart.

ehhhh who said otherwise?

foxy06

Am I missing something. Does no a rent of €433 a month in place of a rent of €1300 a month not mean a subsidy of about €867 a month? From who? The taxpayer! If everybody left school at 13 and started families almost straight away who would pay for all the free houses? If it wasn't for people who get themselves educated and make them selves financially secure before starting families the whole country would fall apart.

Who started a family at 13? I started mine at 20. Personally I am in my second year in college doing accountancy and finished secondary school with excellent leaving cert results. And please stop calling them FREE houses they are far from free! And if I was renting privately and paying 1300 a month the landlord would probably have been acting criminaly by giving the house to me in the state it was in. If I have a problem with my house the council do nothing! I pay for it myself. In my last rented place the landlord did it which justifies the difference in rent. I had central heating put in. I had a kitchen put in. Would anyone paying 1300 a month in rent agree to doing these things at their own expense? I doubt it.

By the way I AM A TAXPAYER TOO!!!!!

antoinolachtnai

PeakOutput wrote:

it saves the tenant that much a month but it does not cost the council that much. The council are not paying 1300 a month for the house. they build the house and then rent it out at a rate the person can afford. the only thing it costs the council is the construction cost of the house initially(and some maintenance costs probably)

Not really true if you accounted for it anything like a private sector company.

If the council sold the property on the open market and invested it in other things, or if they even rented it to commercial tenants, they would get a better return. You have to factor in the opportunity cost of having the money tied up like this.

Of course, the council isn't in housing to make money from it.

PeakOutput

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Of course, the council isn't in housing to make money from it.

exactly its their to serve the people in its area and provide services to them etc so the opportunity cost is irrelevant.

If there was no social housing service those houses would not have been built and it would be a private developer who would of developed the land)possibly after buying it off the council but more than likely after buying it from a private owner) and they would make a profit and the council would have gotten nothing (besides maybe the tax from the profits).

stovelid

Jo King wrote:

Am I missing something. Does no a rent of €433 a month in place of a rent of €1300 a month not mean a subsidy of about €867 a month? From who? The taxpayer! If everybody left school at 13 and started families almost straight away who would pay for all the free houses? If it wasn't for people who get themselves educated and make them selves financially secure before starting families the whole country would fall apart.

Please.

I grew up on a council estate but went to college and own a place now.

Don't bandy around idiotic getting-off-your-arse and anti-single mother cliches about getting yourself educated until you have some experience of the culture of deprivation and low educational achievement that exists in some parts of Dublin.

'The Taxpayer' is more than just you. I'm more than happy for my taxes to help people who genuinely want to break out of that cycle and help their children.

On-topic: One of the problems with selling council stock is that very little
local authority housing is currently being built to replace it.

It's funny that we have all succumbed to a collective property mania but many of us believe that some people are not entitled to want what everybody else does..

foxy06

As far as I am aware 10% (or 20% I'm not sure which) of all new developments must be allocated as social or affordable housing so the stock of council property will be increasing. The whole "council estate" idea is to be phased out and people in need of housing will be integrated with everyone else so hopefully the stigma of living in council house will be lost.

seahorse

foxy06 wrote:

The whole "council estate" idea is to be phased out and people in need of housing will be integrated with everyone else so hopefully the stigma of living in council house will be lost.

Unfortunately it wont Foxy06; it'll just morph and change but whilst keeping its target firmly in sight, as discriminatory views are wont to do. Instead of regarding those inhabiting a council estate five miles down the road a pack of low-lifes, people are now beginning to view the handful of council tenants in their development as low-lifes instead, and if anything those views are held all the more bitterly as a result of the council tenants proximity. That is evidenced by a lot of comments I've heard over the last couple of years.

I used to wonder what people were talking about when they said begrudgery was innate to the Irish nature. I dont anymore.

Cantab.

foxy06 wrote:

As far as I am aware 10% (or 20% I'm not sure which) of all new developments must be allocated as social or affordable housing so the stock of council property will be increasing. The whole "council estate" idea is to be phased out and people in need of housing will be integrated with everyone else so hopefully the stigma of living in council house will be lost.

Do you know what foxy06?

I'm glad you're getting an education, raising a family and are hopeful for the future.

But, do you know what else?

- You are NOT entitled to be given ownership a house from the government (unless you can prove that you are in hardship, in which case you ought to be given a council home, rent free)

- You are just plain silly if you go out spending loads of money on a new kitchen in a house that's not even yours: the very fact that you have done this highlights your sense of entitlement and expectation.

- What else do you want the taxpayer to do for you? You are able to study, you have a roof over your head (and your family's), you can afford to install new kitchens at a whim, and yet you're on the internet complaining about entitlement this and entitlement that.

Life's not fair. Deal with it. You've got every opportunity coming your way - work hard, and one day the world will be your oyster. You should consider yourself lucky, not hard done by.

Your attitude really pisses me off every October. It makes me wonder why I bother when Ireland is full of people like you (moaners, complainers, entitledment this, entitlement that) and the likes of Bev Flynn and Ivor Callely get off scot free. It's no wonder we have so many scougers in government when there's so many people like you in Ireland to elect them.

seahorse

Cantab. wrote:

- You are NOT entitled to be given ownership a house from the government (unless you can prove that you are in hardship, in which case you ought to be given a council home, rent free)

There is no such thing as a person being “given ownership” of a council home. Council tenants earn their ownership, just like every other mortgage payer on this island. Foxy06 (and I am assuming you are female Foxy06) mentioned several times that she has no desire to be handed a 'free home'.

It might pain you to know, as it will no doubt run perpendicular to your clear sense of class superiority, that purchasers of council homes both expect and are expected to work and pay their own mortgages, just like anybody else.

Cantab. wrote:

- You are just plain silly if you go out spending loads of money on a new kitchen in a house that's not even yours: the very fact that you have done this highlights your sense of entitlement and expectation.

The only thing it highlights to me is that Foxy06 is a hardworking mother who has the same sense of "entitlement and expectation" as anyone else; which is to make her home surrounds pleasant and enjoyable for herself and her kids, through her own hard work, I might add.

Cantab. wrote:

- What else do you want the taxpayer to do for you?

She is a taxpayer herself and has stated that several times. Clearly it doesn’t suit you to accept this, as it doesn’t fit with your stereotypical view of council estate scumbags.

Cantab. wrote:

You are able to study, you have a roof over your head (and your family's), you can afford to install new kitchens at a whim, and yet you're on the internet complaining about entitlement this and entitlement that.

Every third level student in this country is able to study as a result of free university fees, regardless of whether they are from a background of vast financial privilege and wouldn't even miss those fees; a preposterous situation which Foxy06's own taxes subsidise.

Where did you get the idea she fitted her kitchen "at a whim"? Did she say that? Or did you assume it? From everything I've read so far on this thread I get the distinct impression there was no "whim" involved and the far more likely circumstance is that she had to word hard for her new kitchen; but that wouldn't fit with your prejudicial views, of course.

Cantab. wrote:

Life's not fair. Deal with it. You've got every opportunity coming your way - work hard, and one day the world will be your oyster. You should consider yourself lucky, not hard done by.

If she had "every opportunity" for herself and her kids she wouldn’t be taking them in at 4pm so they might avoid the risk of getting killed by joyriding maniacs. Wake up and try to imagine being in the shoes of somebody less fortunate then yourself, since it's clear you never expect to have to walk in them.

As to "work hard"; she is already working hard, and has been for twelve years. Maybe you should work a little harder at reading this thread. It might (though I seriously doubt it) curtail your propensity towards making inane and insulting comments.

Cantab. wrote:

Your attitude really pisses me off every October. It makes me wonder why I bother when Ireland is full of people like you (moaners, complainers, entitledment this, entitlement that) and the likes of Bev Flynn and Ivor Callely get off scot free. It's no wonder we have so many scougers in government when there's so many people like you in Ireland to elect them.

Beverly Flynn is a typical upper-middle-class cow - stuffed to the gills with all that life has to offer, but still unsatisfied with her lot; about as far removed from a working class mother on a council estate as it is possible to imagine. In fact, when I think of Beverly Flynn and I consider the typical phrases that reflect the attitudes of the less desirable elements within her social order, they couldn't be any more perfectly coined than in the ones I've heard from you.

As to your own "internet complaining" regarding paying 600 euros for a single room, all I can say to that is - more fool you. I rent a private home in a decent area of North Dublin; it's a very large 3 bed semi with large gardens back and front and it only costs me 1000 a month. Bargains are out there for those who are prepared to get up off their moaning backsides and continue to look.

And Foxy06; I apologise for the amount of abusive comments you've had to read on this thread which I started. From one working class mother to another; we'll always have this to deal with: It's best to just realise that they come from those blessed with an ignorance of how tough the world can be - and God help them should they ever have to figure that out the hard way.

foxy06

You are just plain silly if you go out spending loads of money on a new kitchen in a house that's not even yours: the very fact that you have done this highlights your sense of entitlement and expectation.

I didn't put the kitchen in because I didn't like the colour scheme and fancied a marble worktop! I put it in because there was NO kitchen unless you consider a press with one door missing a kitchen. The room was empty with no cooker, fridge or washing machine. I bet you don't have to worry about these things when you pay YOUR rent. I got the central heating in because there was no heating. There was a fire with no back boiler to heat the rest of the house.

You are NOT entitled to be given ownership a house from the government (unless you can prove that you are in hardship, in which case you ought to be given a council home, rent free)

I'd be really annoyed too if I thought somebody was getting a FREE home but I don't have that on my concience because I will be paying for the home that I Renovated and if you are wondering how I can afford it ask the local Credit Union. They know me very well considering the amount of money I am paying to them every week. (In fact maybe this should be considered as RENT seing as it is for the house in question)

I'm beginning to feel like I am repeating myself because obviously some posters are not reading my previous posts before replying here but here are the facts for you:

I am a taxpayer
I made the house habitable
I am not entitled to get a FREE house which is why I will be getting a mortgage to pay for it.
I DO consider myself lucky and not hard done by....there are people a lot worse off than me out there and I have two lovely children, a home and a job.
And for the record my study costs ME (not the taxpayer) 1500 a year. This might sound like I am loaded but it came out of my longterm savings.

Thanks for the back up seahorse.

homeOwner

foxy06 wrote:

I am a taxpayer
I made the house habitable
I am not entitled to get a FREE house which is why I will be getting a mortgage to pay for it.
I DO consider myself lucky and not hard done by....there are people a lot worse off than me out there and I have two lovely children, a home and a job.
And for the record my study costs ME (not the taxpayer) 1500 a year. This might sound like I am loaded but it came out of my longterm savings.

You have a raw deal when compared to other people in social housing especially those housed in the last few years in estates with a mix of private and social housing and people who get new houses. But with 1500 spare cash for college plus "longterm savings" you are far better off than some people who dont qualify for social housing and are living at home because they cant afford rent. There is no doubt that as a single mother you are given advantages that other childless people in your earnings bracket are not given.

No one would choose to live in the council estate you live in with all its problems unless they literally had no choice. But you do have a choice if you have savings and money for a new kitchen and spare cash for non essentials such as internet connection. RIght there if you add it up thats quite a bit of cash at your disposal. You could chose to move and rent someone else maybe even outside Dublin in a quieter area for the same money that you pay the council now. There is no doubt that for a couple of hundred euro you could rent a place outside Dublin and live in a very nice estate. You have options far more than alot of other people that really desperately need housing and have no job and no income and perhaps an illness that prevents them from working.

I dont know your personal circumstances, but going on how you have presented them on this board, your complaining appears to be coming from a sense of entitlement as you do not appear to be someone who actually needs to be living where you are.

seahorse

First off HomeOwner; congratulations on your own circumstances, which are reflected in your username, and secondly;

homeOwner wrote:

No one would choose to live in the council estate you live in with all its problems unless they literally had no choice...

...you do not appear to be someone who actually needs to be living where you are.

do you not see the contradiction in what you have said here?


I know that some of the comments I've responded to are not directed at me, but I have found myself hard-pressed to ignore them because they also relate to some people who are close to me in my life.

My 68 year old aunt, for example, spent twenty-five years paying off her mortgage to DCC. She had to leave a very destructive marriage in the early seventies, and return from America, where she had emigrated, to come back here and face the huge stigma that existed around being a single mother.

She was uneducated, but hardworking and determined. She was granted an absolute pittance by the state and existed on that while earning the very small amount of money she was allowed to earn by taking up a part time cleaning job. Her job was the lowest paid and the least enviable; in that she spent much of that time cleaning public toilets and she did so for twenty-five years. That extra money was put by every week, regardless whether she had to do without coal or whatever other essential, in order to pay her mortgage so that she would one day have something worth leaving to her two kids, since their father clearly wasnt going to provide for their future.

Are you telling me, Cantab or anyone else who wants to query it, that my aunt, after spending a quarter of a century up to her elbows in other peoples p!ss and sh!t, doesn't have a right to call her home her own?

PeakOutput

seahorse wrote:

Are you telling me, Cantab or anyone else who wants to query it, that my aunt, after spending a quarter of a century up to her elbows in other peoples p!ss and sh!t, doesn't have a right to call her home her own?

you can make it as personal as you like the point is that in general allowing people to buy social housing government assets when they are not being replaced is a bad idea. Its great for the people who can avail of it its crap for the people who will not get a house to live in because of it. I do not begrudge your aunty the house at all in any way shape or form BUT there should be a DIFFERENT procedure in place to allow people in social housing get on the property ladder. that fact is not yours or foxys, or anyone else who is in social housing, problem individually but it is societies problem.

also you said your aunt was paying of her mortgage therefore she owned her house for all that time. its not the same thing as paying below cost rent for 25 years and then using the money saved from not having to pay standard rent to buy the house at a FURTHER reduction.

homeOwner

seahorse wrote:

First off HomeOwner; congratulations on your own circumstances, which are reflected in your username, and secondly;

Thank you.

seahorse wrote:

do you not see the contradiction in what you have said here?

Yes, thats my point. The poster's situation is a contradiction. She is acting like someone who doesnt have a choice. By her own words she fears for her childrens safety and does not let them play outside. To most people that would be a desperate situation and one they would only chose if they had no other choice. The poster has enough money to consider buying the house from the council, yet choses not to use that money to move her family away to a safer area with that money.

seahorse

PeakOutput wrote:

you can make it as personal as you like the point is that in general allowing people to buy social housing government assets when they are not being replaced is a bad idea.

There'd be no need for me to make it personal PeakOutput, it already is personal; when you're talking about the roof over a persons head that's about as personal as it gets.

Also you're suggesting above that social housing is not being replaced. The fact is that it is being replaced; it is being replaced every day of the week. Have a quick scan of any of the council websites and you'll see that for yourself. I could name you three new developments that total more than 150 social (not affordable) housing units within a couple of miles radius of where I live, (and they’re only the ones I happen to know of) and I dont live in an area that's typically high in terms of social housing density.

PeakOutput wrote:

Its great for the people who can avail of it its crap for the people who will not get a house to live in because of it. I do not begrudge your aunty the house at all in any way shape or form BUT there should be a DIFFERENT procedure in place to allow people in social housing get on the property ladder. that fact is not yours or foxys, or anyone else who is in social housing, problem individually but it is societies problem.

I do agree that for every council house sold there ought to be another one built, otherwise we'd have a situation where stocks are drying up and it doesn't take a professor in mathematics to figure out where that'd lead us. If people "don’t get a house" it's not because someone else has bought their own home; it's because the council haven’t built its replacement; that is no fault of the council home-buyer.

PeakOutput wrote:

also you said your aunt was paying of her mortgage therefore she owned her house for all that time. its not the same thing as paying below cost rent for 25 years and then using the money saved from not having to pay standard rent to buy the house at a FURTHER reduction.

No, agreed, it's not the same thing; and I'm not suggesting that people should be allowed to manipulate the system in the way that you describe. What I am saying is simply this; a person ought, and thankfully usually does, have the legal right to make their home their own property, through their own effort and expenditure.

Some people might think the likes of my aunt got a free ride and is laughing all the way to the bank; but my aunt still talks to this day, almost thirty years down the line, about how "grateful" she still feels to the Irish nation for "taking her back in and giving her a chance" as she puts it, and she elaborates about how tough the American system is and how bereft she would have been had she had no choice but to stay there.

I have to add, the "different procedures" you refer to, regardless what they may be; would, since they include disallowing a person to buy the roof over their head, involve treating council houses like transit camps for the socially dispossessed. What you are talking about is encouraging ghettoization. I think we've all seen enough of that in this country; or rather, some of us have.

seahorse

homeOwner wrote:

Yes, thats my point. The poster's situation is a contradiction. She is acting like someone who doesnt have a choice. By her own words she fears for her childrens safety and does not let them play outside. To most people that would be a desperate situation and one they would only chose if they had no other choice. The poster has enough money to consider buying the house from the council, yet choses not to use that money to move her family away to a safer area with that money.

Well I'm sure she can speak for herself on that score, but in my experience no mother willfully raises her children in a dangerous environment if she has any feasible choice. There is no force I've ever encountered so desperate and so determined as a mother who is frightened for her kids.