Aer Lingus transfer SNN-LHR flights to BFS

Slice

Aer Lingus haven't yet said if they're withdrawing the service completely or just reducing it. Ryanair also fly Shannon to London so this is really a non-issue. It will become even more of a non-issue once Terminal 5 and the additional runway is build at Heathrow because if there was any unsatisfied demand in Shannon more routes would open up.

billy the squid

Shannon to London isn't shannon to Heathrow though is it. you have a connecting long haul flight from heathrow, you will have to trapse accross the city of Londong.

And anyone coming in the opposite direction from a distant country, say russia, would require a visa for both ireland and the UK to get to shannon.

marmajam

Hagar wrote:

I think that there is a longer term agenda for Shannon that is not being made public. I think we will see it becoming more militarised and not by the Irish Army. I suspect it may well become a permanent major staging post for the US with a full time military base there. It's being drained of all other viability so that when the military option is put forward, no matter how un-palletable it is, it will have to be accepted or close down the place completely.

Crackpot conspiracy theory? Maybe. Time will tell.

This is no crackpot theory Hag. The problem with modern 'terror' conflict is that a minimum No. of operatives can pursue it. So essential to take all out if possible with 1st strike. Recent reports that CIA want Shannon to launch coordinated attacks Europe wide with fleet disguised in Ryanair livery. It seems Al-Queda is really grand extraterrestial alien plan gradually infiltrating planet through RTE radio waves.

MG

I see this as a very worrying development for the country outside of the Greater Dublin Area and Northern Ireland. Transport links are one of the fundamental building blocks of economic development and I can’t see it being easy to attract investment to the South and west if the transport links continue to be cut. I wonder how much of this move is based on Government subsidies from the UK and the South pouring in to the North. As a taxpayer I find it very worrying that our government seems to be overly concerned with the economic development of the North. Motorway standard road to Belfast are hardly what the taxpayers of the Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway etc routes need, yet this is the one which seems to be getting most development. On top of the attempts to hamper Cork airport, this is another blow which makes me worry about the future of the economy in the South and West if this continues.

The_Conductor

Its not the government who are cutting transport links- its private industry and private companies. The government has been very reasonable with road links for the most part- more worrying than the closure of the Heathrow routes, would be the preoccupation with PPP (Public Private Partnerships) as a manner of funding infrastructure in the country. Thus- we have the private hospitals on public hospital grounds- without any great hopes of improvement in service provision for the taxpayer (as private health care is a must for anyone who values their health- and don't get me started on the VHI, the largest supplier of private health care in the state, which just happens to be a wholly owned state body.......). Most new roads are being tolled, and even where tolls have a proven track record to being a disaster (ala the M50 tollbridge in Dublin) instead of learning from its mistakes the government is simply moving the toll elsewhere (from August 2008 its proposed to toll anyone approaching the M50, irrespective of whether they are going over the bridge or not). We're the only country in the world where the main arterial routes into our capital city are tolled...... If there were alternates, ala what they have on the continent- it would be livable with, but there are not.

I do not see the Shannon-Heathrow slots, and there potential demise, as benefitting the greater Dublin region and Northern Ireland at all...... The last thing that Dublin city needs is more people clogging up its roads on a trek to its pathetic airport. Dublin is a planning disaster, and at serious risk of implosion. Hell, the EU Commission hold a series of tours of the Dublin region for planning officials in the 10 new member states to show them what could potentially happen to them if they don't get their planning together.

The north is getting its "peace dividend" as politicians are so fond of putting it. The finances being invested there by the government is not large, its mostly EU money. Of far greater importance to the north than Irish taxpayers money are the proposals for equalisation of the tax regimes between the two jurisdictions- particularly corporation tax rates. The north is still an economic basket case, whether people like to admit it or not- with over 65% of employment in the public sector. There simply is no incentive for private companies to go in and set up (or indigenous industry to flourish)- much as could validly be argued for the rest of Ireland too. Its not as expensive to do business there as in the Republic, but the rewards simply aren't there. The development of the private sector (including Aerlingus' little stunt) is an attempt to try to break the stranglehold of apathy that they have been wallowing in.

Its not reasonable to try to break Ireland up into regions and focus on employment generation, provision of transport links, tax breaks etc on a region by region basis. Certainly there are lack of employment opportunities in many regions- but the much despised Dublin region, for all its purported employment opportunities, actually has far higher levels of unemployment than any other region in the country. Of the 22,000 people made redundant since the beginning of the year- over 14,000 were in the Dublin region (the next largest block being the 2,350 who were made redundant in the Cork region).

We have to stop playing the Cork and the South East, The greater Dublin Region, The Border-Midlands-West (BMW) region etc off against each other- and sit down and compose a joined up strategy for making this country of ours work. At the moment you have Udaras and other development boards stabbing each other in the back every day of the week as they try to differentiate themselves from each other and portray their particular region as a more important objective or target, than other regions. Its almost comical from a neutral perspective to see how the Jackeens are viewed by many people as sucking the life out of the rest of the country and how on a local level parochial, constituency and county rivalries spill over into an all-out grab for whatever is perceived to be going.

Under current proposals (part of Open Skies) Aerlingus is due to loose a number of its Heathrow slots, one way or the other, come what may. The proposals to built further runways at Stansted capable of being used by the latest Airbus and Boeing behemouths is what should be looked at. This means that within 12 years- Stansted will have developed into a competition international hub for Heathrow- only one with capacity, as opposed to Heathrow which is by virtue of its location hamstrung for future development (despite the proposals to build another run-way there which have subsequently been shot down).

Why focus on the negatives of the current situation with Aerlingus- why not instead view it as an opportunity to refocus what Shannon is, and what people want it to be- where it should go in the future, and how to get there.

Shannon airport was created as a political gesture in 1947- and it has developed very well since. If its to further develop- it needs to find a new reason for being. Originally aircraft had to stop there for refueling, it was simply far too expensive to try to carry sufficient fuel to land anywhere else. That was an economic reality that Shannon catered to. Modern aircraft do not have this problem- yet Shannon has not awoken to this new reality. Shannon has so much going for it- if only people would sit down and refocus what its meant to be, and for whom.

antoinolachtnai

How would Open Skies cause AL to lose Heathrow slots?

The government is directly responsible for this. It sold Ireland's rights to the slots with Aer Lingus for a knock-down price and it hasn't been able to use its 25 percent stake to control what happened to them.

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

How would Open Skies cause AL to lose Heathrow slots?

The government is directly responsible for this. It sold Ireland's rights to the slots with Aer Lingus for a knock-down price and it hasn't been able to use its 25 percent stake to control what happened to them.

Because the mixed mode operations which limit flights into Heathrow (particularly in the afternoon) will become a lot worse in the short run, when terminal 5 opens next March and BA transfers its operations there. The other terminals are due to be divvied up on an alliance basis, with Star Alliance in Terminal 1, One World Alliance in T3 (+ about 10% of BA), Skyteam Terminal 4, BA dedicated T5. Terminal 2 and most of the central airport is due to become a building site (possibly for 3-4 years- or however long it takes to develope it).

The proposals as they stand, will change the mixed mode flights, turning many of the short-haul and domestic slots (which includes Aerlingus under short-haul) into international slots. Aerlingus will still own the slots, but as they will then be international slots, as oppossed to short haul slots, in prime afternoon locations- the writing is on the wall.......

When T5 is properly populated and T2 redeveloped, the situation may change. The most immediate effect of Open Skies however, is the conversion of a number of the shorthaul slots into international ones.

I don't argue with you Antoin, that the Government botched the sale. Just as it did Eircom, PMPA and many other sales. However- the economic reality of life is- why land a plane from Dublin or Shannon (or Belfast) at Heathrow, when you can land a transatlantic one which is far more profitable (or so they hope......)

The reasons that Aldergrove makes immediate sense- is its a domestic flight- it does not incur necessarily high charges that make the use of Heathrow for other carriers very pricey. Aerlingus hope to cater to a business clientele, who are willing to pay a lot more for their flight, than the customer who is on a budget.

Its all in the finances.

Slice

Shannon to London isn't shannon to Heathrow though is it. you have a connecting long haul flight from heathrow, you will have to trapse accross the city of Londong

There are almost as many international flights out of Gatwick as there are out of Heathrow and there are also flights from Shannon to other hub airports such as Amsterdam and Paris. In terms of onward connections to the rest of the world this doesn't exactly herald the dark ages for Shannon that people seem to be making out.

BuffyBot

Shannon to Beauvais isn't any good for connections.

And I can't for the life of me think who does the Amsterdam route (if anyone), but I'm sure it isn't one of the bigger airlines

Chris_533976

I dont think theres a Shannon - Amsterdam route... I couldnt get one a few months ago and had to go via Dublin.

antoinolachtnai

smccarrick wrote:

The reasons that Aldergrove makes immediate sense- is its a domestic flight- it does not incur necessarily high charges that make the use of Heathrow for other carriers very pricey. Aerlingus hope to cater to a business clientele, who are willing to pay a lot more for their flight, than the customer who is on a budget.

Its all in the finances.

So it really costs a lot more to land a plane from Shannon in LHR than it does a plane from Belfast? (I am not doubting you, I'm just surprised.)

Surely Belfast-Heathrow is a highly competitive route to be getting involved in, whilst Shannon-Heathrow, Aer Lingus has to itself?

I just have a feeling this will all end in tears.

In the new Heathrow order you are describing, could EI fly a big plane to London every day, and then fly onwards to JFK, since it has its mitts on the slots?

The_Conductor

BuffyBot wrote:

And I can't for the life of me think who does the Amsterdam route (if anyone), but I'm sure it isn't one of the bigger airlines

I think its Skynet Airlines. Shannon based, they have only two routes, Amsterdam and Moscow......

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

In the new Heathrow order you are describing, could EI fly a big plane to London every day, and then fly onwards to JFK, since it has its mitts on the slots?

Its my understanding that yes, EI could do so. Whether they have any intention of doing so is another question though. BA and Virgin have it sewn up between themselves at present- but with open skies, god only knows what sort of cat that might throw among the pidgeons.

BendiBus

smccarrick wrote:

I think its Skynet Airlines. Shannon based, they have only two routes, Amsterdam and Moscow......

I thought they folded a couple of years ago.

Terrontress

As I understand it there is no route to LHR from BFS or BHD. I think bmi and flybe fly to LGW and Air France to LCY and from BFS EZY fly to LTN but I am not aware of any flights to LHR.

With the new road to Belfast, there will only be a further journey of 2 hours in the car to BFS. When you consider that it can take 45 minutes to park the car at DUB, it is not too surprising to think that people living in Dublin and along the North East will start to use BFS and BHD instead of DUB.

The new Easyjet routes as well as the EI announcement seemed to be announced to coincide with the new road being opened.

antoinolachtnai

I think BMI fly Heathrow-Belfast City. I seem to be able to book that anyway. There certainly used to be a flight.

BuffyBot

smccarrick wrote:

I think its Skynet Airlines. Shannon based, they have only two routes, Amsterdam and Moscow......

I think they are long gone.

The_Conductor

BendiBus wrote:

I thought they folded a couple of years ago.

No I thought Aeroflot bought them out.
They're still listed along with the route on the main Shannon airport page here.
I'm not sure if its current?
The contact details and page for Skynet are now part of the main Aeroflot site (unfortunately for me its in Russian). Its at: http://www.aeroflot.aero/
I'm not sure?

Shane

Victor

bowsie casey wrote:

... and now a large number of displaced SNN-LHR travellers will have to travel via Dublin, adding to an already over-crowded mess !!

Why via Dublin? Aren't Ryanair now doing Shannon-Belfast?

dowlingm

Here's an interesting one - remember the announcement that Aer Lingus was re-opening the Dublin-Gatwick route? According to another forum, the slots are coming from Continental who have Gatwick slots and want them for Heathrow so Aer Lingus have agreed a lease in exchange for a Gatwick slot lease. How quietly will that be announced I wonder?

The plot thickens!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0807/breaking73.htm

According to this, Michael O'Leary has called on the govt to use their shareholding with his (total >50pc) to block the move!

parsi

Just wait for the inevitable strike and then the "lynch the Unions" mob will be out with sharpened pitchforks.

Let's face it - for years EI have been told to shape up and not act like a Semi-State and now when they do it they are damned...

As regards Micky O'Leery telling the Gov to bully EI it's more about keeping EI out of Belfast than keeping them in Shannon because lets face it FR have no qualms about upping sticks.

antoinolachtnai

But the Heathrow slots were a critical piece of national infrastructure and they have been sold off. That just wasn't a good idea.

FR weren't sold a bunch of slots for half-price by the government.

dowlingm

antoin - the BFS-LHR slots are not "sold" - that implies a transfer of ownership. They could be just as easily transferred from BFS at a later date and made LHR-Knock, LHR-Kerry, more LHR-Cork. They remain under the control of Aer Lingus.

Now, you might say that capacity between the Republic of Ireland and London Heathrow has been reduced - that would be true. It is true from Shannon and it will also be true from Dublin if the slot lease-swap between Continental and Aer Lingus is confirmed.

arctictree

I have been 'forced' to use shannon a number of times. Here are some comments:

1) I did not want to be there
2) The place was shabby and dirty
3) None of the drinks/snack machines worked - they just swallowed our money
4) The level of customer care and service was of a very low standard

Overall, my impression of the airport was very poor.

LostinBlanch

dowlingm wrote:

Here's an interesting one - remember the announcement that Aer Lingus was re-opening the Dublin-Gatwick route? According to another forum, the slots are coming from Continental who have Gatwick slots and want them for Heathrow so Aer Lingus have agreed a lease in exchange for a Gatwick slot lease. How quietly will that be announced I wonder?

The plot thickens!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0807/breaking73.htm

According to this, Michael O'Leary has called on the govt to use their shareholding with his (total >50pc) to block the move!

Yes I heard today that 2 slots were leased out. Strange that it only came to light after the unions met with Aer Lingus management.

Whatever his motive it's a nice move by O'Leary to put it up to Bertie. I'll enjoy watching him squirm.

LostinBlanch

arctictree wrote:

I have been 'forced' to use shannon a number of times. Here are some comments:

1) I did not want to be there
2) The place was shabby and dirty
3) None of the drinks/snack machines worked - they just swallowed our money
4) The level of customer care and service was of a very low standard

Overall, my impression of the airport was very poor.

Sounds like my experience of Heathrow, especially if you replace cash swallowing vending machines with loooong looooong queues for everything.

Given the choice I'd prefer to fly out of Amsterdam rather than the UK any day.

arctictree

LostinBlanch wrote:

Given the choice I'd prefer to fly out of Amsterdam rather than the UK any day.

I've had that choice so many times recently and have chosen either Amsterdam or Frankfurt over any UK airport esp LHR. Just goes to show you that passengers DO make choices based on efficiency, cleanliness etc...

antoinolachtnai

dowlingm wrote:

antoin - the BFS-LHR slots are not "sold" - that implies a transfer of ownership. They could be just as easily transferred from BFS at a later date and made LHR-Knock, LHR-Kerry, more LHR-Cork. They remain under the control of Aer Lingus.

Yes they were sold. The implication of transfer of ownership is deliberate. Ryanair owns 25 percent of them. The union owns another tranche of 15 or 20 percent and some bankers and investors own the rest. They used to belong to the people of Ireland. Now the people only own 25 percent. The whole thing was sold for a fire sale price.

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Yes they were sold. The implication of transfer of ownership is deliberate. Ryanair owns 25 percent of them. The union owns another tranche of 15 or 20 percent and some bankers and investors own the rest. They used to belong to the people of Ireland. Now the people only own 25 percent. The whole thing was sold for a fire sale price.

The reason it was sold- is Aerlingus had to be in a position where it could raise the finances to replace its fleet. The government was not in a position where it is allowed to either invest further money in the company to purchase aircraft or to make loans to the company (at favourable rates or otherwise). Private investors had no interest in Aerlingus, particularly given its labour relations history. Perhaps they could have gotten more money- there is no guarantee they could have done. What they did, along with selling off the company, was guaranteed that it would exist longterm- the biggest mistake they made was leaving it in a situation where Ryanair was able to mop up as many shares as they did.

They airline that used to belong to the people of Ireland was a bankrupt, inefficient behemoth- without any clear path to the future. The pensions liabilities alone, similar to the situation at BA, actually exceed anything that the airline is/was worth. This has been rectified.

Yes, the people of Ireland owned the airline. They also owned the liabilities that were attached to the airline. Under state-aid rules, the government was no longer entitled to continue supporting these liabilities.

I am not trying to support EI pulling out of Shannon, or what the government did- simply point out that EI's actions are on financial grounds- as were the governments.

KC61

Terrontress wrote:

As I understand it there is no route to LHR from BFS or BHD. I think bmi and flybe fly to LGW and Air France to LCY and from BFS EZY fly to LTN but I am not aware of any flights to LHR.

With the new road to Belfast, there will only be a further journey of 2 hours in the car to BFS. When you consider that it can take 45 minutes to park the car at DUB, it is not too surprising to think that people living in Dublin and along the North East will start to use BFS and BHD instead of DUB.

The new Easyjet routes as well as the EI announcement seemed to be announced to coincide with the new road being opened.

Belfast most certainly does have a link to/from London Heathrow already. bmi flies the route from Belfast City to London Heathrow eight times a day!

It also has links to Gatwick, London City, London Luton and London Stansted.

Belfast International has links to Gatwick, Luton and Stansted.