The Enemies of Reason

MoominPapa

New Dawkins series starting on 13th Aug C4 and article today in the Sunday Times. In which he will take on astrology, homeopathy, spiritualism and all that other new age hoodoo voodoo. Looking forward to it but the saying "shooting fish in a barrel" springs to mind

5uspect

Interesting. I wonder how they'll do it? It would be good to have some good hard debates rather than just have Dawkins sit there with a bemused look on his face.

MoominPapa

Its over two episodes, the first will be on astrology and that sort of crap and the next is titled "the irrational health service" which tackles homeopathy and faith healing. C4 seem to be only willing to give him two shows a series, Root of All Evil was the same. Would have thought another on post modernism would have rounded things off nicely

5uspect

Have you read his postmodernism essay? Its in the Devils Chaplin, good book.

MoominPapa

Yeah which is why I'd think he'd be up for giving pm as much a drubbing as faith healers, maybe he'll squeeze it in somewhere.

Dave!

Cool, looking forward to this!

Galvasean

Ill give it a look. I missed Root of All Evil and it seems to have vanished off the face of the Earth.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4321574955310561251&q=root+of+all+evil&total=372&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

vanished off the face of the earth

five seconds it took me to google that


--edit

hehe, posted the wrong link

Galvasean

I cant watch videos for more than five minutes on the computer. Makes me go all googley eyed. I meant TV and/or DVD (any word on that happening? Dawkins mentioned it in God Delusion)

Stephen

Sounds like Penn & Teller's Bullsh1t without the swearing and breasts

Dave!

Galvasean wrote:

I cant watch videos for more than five minutes on the computer. Makes me go all googley eyed. I meant TV and/or DVD (any word on that happening? Dawkins mentioned it in God Delusion)

http://www.skeptic.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SS&Product_Code=av561DVD&Affiliate=dawkins

Scofflaw

Enjoyed this review of it, although I probably won't actually see it.

I particularly liked this Pythonesque image:

"If it wasn't for the Enlightenment, you wouldn't be reading this right now. You'd be standing in a smock throwing turnips at a witch."

cordially,
Scofflaw

lookinforpicnic

"If you've ever described yourself as "quite spiritual", do civilisation a favour and punch yourself in the throat until you're incapable of speaking aloud ever again. Why should your outmoded codswallop be treated with anything other than the contemptuous mockery it deserves?" LOL

Looking forward to the programme, spirituality bugs me more than standard religous beliefs, as people normally consider them quite sophisticated or thought out when they clearly have not been.

monkeyfudge

Homeopathy is one that really gets my goat.

I've had to stop seeing my local GP as he started insisting on dolling out sugar tablets with a magical drop of liquid on them.

Dave!

Don't forget this is on tonight at 8pm Set your alarms!

lookinforpicnic

alarm is set, looking forward to it, maybe someone should tell the guys over in spirituality...great program on spirituality tonight ye'll love it!

Beruthiel

Thanks Dave, reminder set on TV now

Dave!

Just found this video, an interview with RD on Richard and Judy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964171996506271039&hl=en

It's 10 mins long, about the new documentary! I'm actually gonna post a thread on this in the Paranormal forum (if there's none there already), I'd say it's better suited there than Spirituality

5uspect

Derren Browne makes an apperance too, should be good.

Ciaran500

Its on now for anyone who has forgot.

GhostInTheRuins

Completely forgot it was on, my sister told me it was on but I missed the first 10 minutes or thereabouts. It was quite good, at least it makes a bit of a change from the usual stuff that we always hear Dawkins talking about.

da_deadman

I only found out about this when I logged on here just after 8 this evenin so I missed the first 10 minutes also. But, like D.T. Jesus says I found it quite an interesting show.

I liked the Derren Brown bit, although South Park probably did a better job of debunking the whole 'Crossing Over' thing. The dowsing experiment was good too.

I hope I remember this one for next Monday.

GhostInTheRuins

da_deadman wrote:

I liked the Derren Brown bit, although South Park probably did a better job of debunking the whole 'Crossing Over' thing.

I was thinking the exact same thing when Brown was explaining about cold reading.

Dave!

Anyone got a link to this South Park episode?

Myksyk

forgot, forgot, forgot ... crap and double crap!

5uspect

Sure it will appear on the interweb soon...

I enjoyed it. It would have been interesting if they indulged the dowsers and let the woman do it with the scaffolding she wanted. It would really have hammered home the point. Tho no doubt she would have continued to make excuses.

da_deadman

DaveMcG wrote:

Anyone got a link to this South Park episode?

Some of the exchanges went like this:

South Park Episode: The Biggest Douche in the Universe wrote:

John Edward: But, I'm a psychic.
Stan: No, dude. You're a douche.
John Edward: I'm not a douche. What if I really believed dead people talk to me?
Stan: Then, you're a stupid douche.
...

John Edward: You better not call me a liar, a fake, or a douche, or else I'll sue you for slander!
Stan: I am saying this to you, John Edward. You are a liar. You are a fake. And you are the biggest douche ever.
John Edward: Everything I tell people is positive and gives them hope! How does that make me a douche?
Stan: Because the big questions in life are tough; Why are we here? Where are we from? Where are we going? But as long as people believe in a*****e douchey liars like you, we're never going to find the answers to those questions. You aren't just lying, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind, YOU DOUCHE!

I wonder if Dawkins felt like saying something similar to the guy he was talking to.

Everytime I hear or read something by Dawkins I can't help but be impressed by his love of the sciences - he gave a great advertisement for astronomy this evening.

Dave!

da_deadman wrote:

Some of the exchanges went like this:



I wonder if Dawkins felt like saying something similar to the guy he was talking to.

Everytime I hear or read something by Dawkins I can't help but be impressed by his love of the sciences - he gave a great advertisement for astronomy this evening.

Cheers

He really is mad for science! Dunno bout it being a great advertisement for astronomy though... This is an amazing short video with Carl Sagan speaking over it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

Now THAT'S a great advertisement! Gives you some serious perspective

The Mad Hatter

DaveMcG wrote:

Just found this video, an interview with RD on Richard and Judy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964171996506271039&hl=en

It's 10 mins long, about the new documentary! I'm actually gonna post a thread on this in the Paranormal forum (if there's none there already), I'd say it's better suited there than Spirituality

Just watched it.

I have issue with his statement 'Do you really want to be entertained by falsehood? Wouldn't it be better since the truth is so wonderful...'

I'm standing before the firing line on an atheists forum for saying this, but I'm not really that concerned with truth. Frankly happiness is more important to me. And I think quite a few people are entertained by falsehood, only we call it fiction (and good fiction is the second-most important thing in the world to me, next to good music).

lookinforpicnic

The Mad Hatter wrote:

And I think quite a few people are entertained by falsehood, only we call it fiction (and good fiction is the second-most important thing in the world to me, next to good music).

Yeah but do the people that are entertained by falsehood know that it is falsehood, you like good fiction but you know that it is just that fiction. Fiction is entertaining when it is not telling you how to behave, how to be moral and how the world was created in 7 days.

Looking at the show tonight and from my own dealings with paranormal/spiritually folk, it looks like that they generally do not believe that they are believing in falsehoods, they concont all sort of elaborate tales about how there method works...they remind me of brain damaged patients confabulating stories to satisfy their stubborn feelings.

Stephen

Fiction is fine when it is labeled as such. I enjoy a good work of fiction as much as the next man! Labelling utter fiction as fact and making it a set of rules to live by (or, depending on where/when you live, enforcing your crazy fairyland rules on society) is just wrong.

Dades

DaveMcG wrote:

Just found this video, an interview with RD on Richard and Judy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964171996506271039&hl=en

Twas all a bit slow moving last night - I preferred the Richard & Judy version DaveMcG posted as it cut it down nicely!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Think he was a bit over the top.

People who go to tarot readings etc for the most part do it for a bit of a laugh & the experience.

As for "spiritualists" I've aalways got the impression they don't really believe, more of a fashion thing for them.

One thing he's right to be boistorous about is those cold readers. I felt really bad when I saw people crying when they thought they were in contact with loved ones. Some day they'll find out it was nonsense & could end up feeling much worse than they originally did.

Hivemind187

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Think he was a bit over the top.

People who go to tarot readings etc for the most part do it for a bit of a laugh & the experience.

As for "spiritualists" I've aalways got the impression they don't really believe, more of a fashion thing for them.

One thing he's right to be boistorous about is those cold readers. I felt really bad when I saw people crying when they thought they were in contact with loved ones. Some day they'll find out it was nonsense & could end up feeling much worse than they originally did.

Believe me mate, most of the plebs who go to Tarot readers, spiritualists and crystal ball gazers do so because they genuinely think there is something to it. No one in there right mind would shell out 80-100 euro to listen to some blatherskite nonsense unless they were either a) incredibly flush with money and taking the p1ss or b) they are incredibly gullible.

But you are right about the cold reading, its a con and a particularly nasty one, preying on the sensitive emotions of vulnerable people.

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

Believe me mate, most of the plebs who go to Tarot readers, spiritualists and crystal ball gazers do so because they genuinely think there is something to it. No one in there right mind would shell out 80-100 euro to listen to some blatherskite nonsense unless they were either a) incredibly flush with money and taking the p1ss or b) they are incredibly gullible.

But you are right about the cold reading, its a con and a particularly nasty one, preying on the sensitive emotions of vulnerable people.

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Scofflaw

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Good point! For example, spending €100 on poisoning oneself with alcohol is hardly sensible.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Crucifix

The Mad Hatter wrote:

I'm standing before the firing line on an atheists forum for saying this, but I'm not really that concerned with truth. Frankly happiness is more important to me. And I think quite a few people are entertained by falsehood, only we call it fiction (and good fiction is the second-most important thing in the world to me, next to good music).

I'd rather know if my girlfriend was cheating on me than be happy and not know. I guess if I never knew it wouldn't matter, but I'd prefer to know the truth about things, regardless of how it makes me feel.

I like fiction too, but I don't think that's the same as believing a falsehood.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Hivemind187 wrote:

Believe me mate, most of the plebs who go to Tarot readers, spiritualists and crystal ball gazers do so because they genuinely think there is something to it. No one in there right mind would shell out 80-100 euro to listen to some blatherskite nonsense unless they were either a) incredibly flush with money and taking the p1ss or b) they are incredibly gullible.

But you are right about the cold reading, its a con and a particularly nasty one, preying on the sensitive emotions of vulnerable people.

my mother and my aunt went to see a psychic last weekend, mam came back all abuzz that the psychic had mentioned she was having trouble with cars (they are building a quarry near our house and the road will be destroyed with lorries) , and a woman with first name starting with 'A' is giving her hassle.

she was honestly considering moving house because of what this idiot said.

I nearly threw up.

Tim Robbins

Crucifix wrote:

I'd rather know if my girlfriend was cheating on me than be happy and not know. I guess if I never knew it wouldn't matter, but I'd prefer to know the truth about things, regardless of how it makes me feel.

I like fiction too, but I don't think that's the same as believing a falsehood.

Fiction is and myth believing are both just the suspension of disbelief.
While different, they share a lot in common.
Humans crave the suspension of disbelied whether through fiction or myth to escape from the humdrum of reality.

Hivemind187

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Yes but normally when I am done masturbating I have something to show for it.

These charlatans do nothing if not masturbate ones ego, they tell you things about yourself that are immensely vague (to make it easy to swallow) and yet positive (so that you feel good). Really, thats all there is to it.

Personally, I would rather spend the €100 on something a lot more fun like new DVD's or a meal in a decent restaraunt.

MoominPapa

My favorite was the woman at the fair
"Sometimes you can trust your feelings better than.....your..." points, roughly, in the direction of her head "...head"

But joking aside, spiritualists make steam shoot out my ears. People close to me lost a loved one and were persuaded to seek the "help" of one of these f*ckers, really made matters much worse for a time but made the people who persuaded them feel better about themselves in some twisted sort of way and the charlatan 50 quid richer

Nice dig at pm too, looking forward to next week

Beruthiel

MoominPapa wrote:

My favorite was the woman at the fair
"Sometimes you can trust your feelings better than.....your..." points, roughly, in the direction of her head "...head"

I loled at that one.
I find those guys who pander to weak people in need of comfort to be leaches on society.

Crucifix

Tim Robbins wrote:

Fiction is and myth believing are both just the suspension of disbelief.
While different, they share a lot in common.
Humans crave the suspension of disbelied whether through fiction or myth to escape from the humdrum of reality.

Agreed

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Yes but normally when I am done masturbating I have something to show for it.

You shouldn't have to pay 100 euro for that.

aidan24326

Tim Robbins wrote:

You shouldn't have to pay 100 euro for that.

Was thinking that myself.

Hivemind, how exactly does it cost you 100 euro to masturbate?! I thought it was 'the most fun you can have for free'!

Missed this docu as I was out irrationally spending money on poisonous alcohol. But I gotta say these new-age spiritualist types rile me more than any religious person. They often seem to think of themselves as more high-brow than the typical churchgoing god-fearing types but the garbage they spout is every bit as bad if not worse.

In the case of 'psychic channelers' or whatever they call themselves it is more than just harmless nonsense as they are playing on the emotions of people in a vulnerable state of mind. I was delighted when the old hag that was on the late late show got exposed for the blood-sucking fraud that she is. But no doubt she's probably still in action.

Calibos

For anyone who missed it, its already up on the usual torrent sites. Just starting to watch it myself now. Like Mysyk I browsed the forum last night and as soon as I saw this thread again..........Ahhh...b0ll1x! Very embarressinging as I gave a heads up about the programme on the skeptics forum.

Hivemind187

aidan24326 wrote:

Was thinking that myself.

Hivemind, how exactly does it cost you 100 euro to masturbate?! I thought it was 'the most fun you can have for free'!

Bastards ... what will I do with the receipts??? :eek:

Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

Good point! For example, spending €100 on poisoning oneself with alcohol is hardly sensible.

Ah here now! It is true that spending 100 euro to get pissed all alone in a dark room would be a waste. But thats not what most people do. That money is spent on a whole night's entertainment, filled with revelry, friends and new people, lasting as much as six hours or more. Thats worth a hundred quid to me. Not too often mind you, I'd usually like to keep it to around 50/60...

stevejazzx

edit: fixed link



watch it here

http://www.videosift.com/?domains=www.videosift.com&search=enemies+of+reason



I thought it was very good...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Zombrex

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

That is the thing I think a lot of people miss. Some of this stuff does seem to work. But that isn't the point. The point is that it doesn't work (or has never been shown to work) in the way that those who sell it claim it works.

If I have a stomach problem and I take a homeopathic medicine and it "works" (I feel better) it most likely has been a placebo effect. It would be rather premature and silly of me to proclaim that it has worked because the "water memory" or some such nonsense.

People seem to think that if it does something it must by doing what it is claimed it is doing, or otherwise it wouldn't do anything.

It is medieval reasoning going on (I burn wood there by releasing the "fire" element that exist in side it), seeing a result and just guessing at what is happening.