"Citizen's arrest" of US soldiers in Shannon

FYI

Fratton Fred wrote:

The RN was acting under UN sanction and "Potentially" strayed into territory that belonged to Iran. Protocol dictates that the offending navy gets told to clear off and does so, if not it is an act of aggression. turning the whole thing into a media circus to keep your mad extremists happy goes a bit beyind what is acceptable.

The UN mandate does not address the prious breaches of the charter by the 'allies'.

It looks likely that a hostile military entered Iranian waters openly stating to Sky news days before that they gather intelligence on Iranian military movements etc.

Given that the US/UK are pretty much threatening Iran with military action it comes as no surprise Iran would arrest these sailors.

I'd like to see which protocol it is that this goes against.

oh and FYI:

Shannon peace activist put six young US service men under (citizens) arrest.

Visiting US troopsWhile Driving through Ennis town yesterday afternoon a local anti-war activist put six young US service men under (citizens) arrest. On Thursday morning an US troop carrier landed at Shannon with technical problems. This is a common occurrence with the chartered troop carriers that come through Shannon Airport. With an average of 1100 hundred troops going through Irelands second international airport on a nightly basis these aircraft are flat out ferrying young men and women to Iraq. Many of these stranded soldiers were billeted at the West County Hotel in Ennis near where peace activist Conor Cregan encountered six young US servicemen on the main Ennis to Limerick road.

Cregan immediately called for the six to stop. “I am placing you all under citizen’s arrest. Do not move” he shouted as the stunned men came to a halt. After assuring the men that they were not in jeopardy the peace activist made an emergency call to Ennis Garda Station. Cregan called for the Member in charge to send a van to pick up these awol soldiers but Garda O'Sullivan’s response was less than helpful. The deskbound officer was more interested to know if they were armed or their commander in chief George W Bush was among them. Mind you he wasn’t so funny when reminded that that all emergency calls were recorded.

Convinced that he wouldn’t get any joy from the Ennis Garda station Cregan went into the hotel to look for the Commanding Officer of the US troops. He approached a NCO but she could not see the man in charge but then Cregan spotted a familiar face coming towards him. DGda Jarlaith Fathy, a man who once tried to frame him for a crime he did not commit, was leaning over the reception desk.

Cregan called for the detective to take charge of the soldiers. Fathy followed him out to the front of the building where the six were sheepishly edging their way towards the entrance to the hotel. One polite young trooper leaned over and extended his hand towards the peace activist and apologized. Cregan again assured the young man that he was not in trouble and informed the lost patrol that in fact this was a diplomatic matter and that the Irish government was the wrongdoer in this situation. He thanked the men for their cooperation and left them in the hands of DGda Fathy who ushered them back into the hotel.

Later Conor Cregan registered a complaint with Superintendent John Kerin of Ennis Garda Station. Supt Kerin seemed surprised that anyone would complain about a foreign army walking the roads of Ireland and tried to convince that this was not a major issue. The top cop was more annoyed that Mr. Cregan had rang the Ennis Gardai Station on the 999 emergency line and informed him that he would be investigating the matter with a view to prosecute.

Later Conor Cregan returned to the West County Hotel to follow up this story. Standing outside the front entrance were three NCO’s, of the American Army, smoking cigarettes and a chat with a member of An Gardai Siochana. These young soldiers were enjoying their down time but complained about lack of heat. One soldier informed the reporter that “the weather would be a lot hotter in Texas” where she was from. She also said it was hot in Iraq and after their two week vacation she would be returning to duty in the middle-east war zone. Standing beside her was a friend from her home state and a sergeant from “Hollywood California” who would have liked to visit the town of Ennis but had no clothes to wear.
When asked why they were not allowed to leave the hotel she replied that “the people her might not like to see us”.

Another soldier dressed in “Army” shorts and T-shirt explained that they were invited to Ireland by the Irish Government.

When Conor Cregan started to clarify the nature of a neutral state like Ireland and the responsibilities that came with this status a member of An Gardai Siochana came over and just as he explained that under international law that all belligerent combatants should be interned under close arrest the young Ennis Guard asked him to identify himself.
“Conor Cregan and you are”
“I am a Guard that’s all you need to know”
“And Guard you don’t have any numbers on”
She replied to this sternly and ushered the US troops back into the hotel. After a while two another uniformed Garda and two plain clothes Garda arrive on the scene. The situation seemed to be in hand so this report left.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76801

Liam Byrne

It's off-topic, but worth reading....

Fair play Conor Gregan.....aside from the core problem with the U.S. using Shannon, the fact is that the Govermnment (as distinct from the people) allowed them to do so ON CONDITION THAT THEY DO NOT WEAR ARMY CLOTHING.

Go out to Shannon any day and you'll get a constant reminder that we are involved in an illegal war. :mad:

Fratton Fred

did that actually happen or was it a scene from Ballykissangel?

Fratton Fred

FYI wrote:

The UN mandate does not address the prious breaches of the charter by the 'allies'.

It looks likely that a hostile military entered Iranian waters openly stating to Sky news days before that they gather intelligence on Iranian military movements etc.

Given that the US/UK are pretty much threatening Iran with military action it comes as no surprise Iran would arrest these sailors.

I'd like to see which protocol it is that this goes against.

where have the allies breached the charter and where does it say they entered Iranian waters?

FYI

Fratton Fred wrote:

where have the allies breached the charter and where does it say they entered Iranian waters?

1) That would be the illegal war of aggression

2) Read pages 16, 17 and 18

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmfaff/880/880.pdf

There is sufficient evidence to believe both or neither

Manic Moran

Liam Byrne wrote:

aside from the core problem with the U.S. using Shannon, the fact is that the Govermnment (as distinct from the people) allowed them to do so ON CONDITION THAT THEY DO NOT WEAR ARMY CLOTHING.

As one of the US troops who passed through Shannon in uniform (And even spent my hard-earned dosh on a bottle of Middleton's in the Duty-Free to celebrate my safe return), and aware of Irish law on the issue, I had some time ago taken the trouble to look it up. Evidently unlike yourself.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=379&docID=1416

Another matter on which I have acted to tighten the application of regulations relates to the wearing of military uniforms by foreign troops. Under Section 317 of Defence Act, 1954, military personnel are forbidden to enter or land in the state while wearing a uniform, except with written Ministerial permission. Following discussions between my Department and the US Embassy, the Embassy sought, and was granted, Ministerial permission to wear duty uniform in the immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield

did that actually happen or was it a scene from Ballykissangel?

Actually happened. Showed up in Stars and Stripes (US Army newspaper) as well. Wonderful example of Irish hospitality which will both provide an amusing story for telling, and another great way of reinforcing the stereotype of Irish eccentricity. Whilst fair play to the chap for acting on his convictions, he was wrong in matter of fact and cannot be held up as an example to be followed. Next time, maybe he should check his facts instead of depriving some troops of the opportunity to see some little bit of Ireland which they might otherwise have not known about.

NTM

FYI

Manic Moran wrote:

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=379&docID=1416
NTM

Where does this contradict Liam's comments?

Manic Moran

FYI wrote:

Where does this contradict Liam's comments?

Umm... The bit in block caps about 'on condition of not wearing army uniform' appears to be directly contradicted by the statement that the government received a request, and granted persmission for the wearing of army uniforms.

NTM

FYI

From Cowen's Statement:

"Another matter on which I have acted to tighten the application of regulations relates to the wearing of military uniforms by foreign troops. Under Section 317 of Defence Act, 1954, military personnel are forbidden to enter or land in the state while wearing a uniform, except with written Ministerial permission. Following discussions between my Department and the US Embassy, the Embassy sought, and was granted, Ministerial permission to wear duty uniform in the immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield. Any requests for exceptions to this policy are to be submitted to my Department."

LostinBlanch

Manic Moran wrote:

And even spent my hard-earned dosh on a bottle of Middleton's in the Duty-Free to celebrate my safe return

Did you enjoy it?

I'd have gone for Redbreast 12 year old myself.

Manic Moran

FYI wrote:

From Cowen's Statement:

"Following discussions between my Department and the US Embassy, the Embassy sought, and was granted, Ministerial permission to wear duty uniform in the immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield. Any requests for exceptions to this policy are to be submitted to my Department."

Not that my English Comprehension might have been damaged by my living in the US, but does't that mean that the US military has permission to wear uniform at Shannon and its immediate vicinity? The terms 'sought, and was granted [...] permission' seem to be applicable.

NTM

FYI

Manic Moran wrote:

Not that my English Comprehension might have been damaged by my living in the US

I wouldn't llike to guess where it has been damaged.

He says:

"immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield"

which is basically between the plane and the gate, NOT OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT.

Manic Moran

FYI wrote:

which is basically between the plane and the gate, NOT OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT.

You really want to check your definition of 'immediate vicinity.' It means in the proximate area of, or close nearby. It does not restrict to within. I would submit that somewhere close enough that one could accomodate a hundred people on short notice would so constitute. Note also that 'airport' and 'airfield' are not synonymous. Airfield is the entire facility which is boundaried by the fence. The airport is the main structure and ancilliary buildings.

NTM

FYI

Manic Moran wrote:

You really want to check your definition of 'immediate vicinity.' It means in the proximate area of, or close nearby. It does not restrict to within. I would submit that somewhere close enough that one could accomodate a hundred people on short notice would so constitute.

NTM

How long will you drag this argument out???

The article says: "Ennis town"

This is not in the 'in the immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield' of Shannon airport.

Fratton Fred

FYI wrote:

How long will you drag this argument out???

The article says: "Ennis town"

This is not in the 'in the immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield' of Shannon airport.

I'll let the yanks know that the next time they want to invade Ennis to do it in civies, that way they'll meet no resistance.

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Cuba, Ennis, these damn americans don't know when to stop do they:p

Manic Moran

FYI wrote:

How long will you drag this argument out???

Long enough.

The article says: "Ennis town"

This is not in the 'in the immediate vicinity of an arrival/departure airfield' of Shannon airport.

Ennis is the nearest notable town to Shannon Airport, 13 miles according to the marker. We're not exactly talking all the way to Limerick here, and as such does qualify under 'immediate vicinity'

If the troops weren't permitted to leave the airfield under any circumstances, they wouldn't say 'immediate vicinity'. If they are permitted to leave the airfield, it must be for a reason, the most likely one being acommodation for a delayed flight. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be that location. Unless you suggest they want permission to go down the road half a mile to get some mingies at the local Shell station.

NTM

RedPlanet

FFS Manic!

Ennis is miles away from the immediate vicinity of Shannon Airport.
If the soldiers were permitted to wear their crappy uniforms then the Gard wouldn't have ushered them inside.

AbusesToilets

I imagine the Garda ushered the soldiers inside to avoid having to deal with the bell-end who put them under citizens arrest.

Manic Moran

Ennis is miles away from the immediate vicinity of Shannon Airport.

And as mentioned, is the closest town of any note. On a national, or even international level, Limerick is 'in the vicinity of Shannon'. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be the immediate vicinity, by virtue of necessity as there's nowhere else which could count.

If the soldiers were permitted to wear their crappy uniforms then the Gard wouldn't have ushered them inside.

Step one in resolving a conflict is to remove from view the source of that conflict if possible. And they're actually reasonably good uniforms, particularly the DCUs. ACUs could do with a little less velcro though. Hopefully they'll change that in the next run.

NTM

RedPlanet

AbusesToilets wrote:

I imagine the Garda ushered the soldiers inside to avoid having to deal with the bell-end who put them under citizens arrest.

Oh do you now?
You mean the Gard would have infringed upon the soldiers rights to keep quiet a dirty protester?
I doubt that very much.

FYI

Manic Moran wrote:

And as mentioned, is the closest town of any note. On a national, or even international level, Limerick is 'in the vicinity of Shannon'. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be the immediate vicinity, by virtue of necessity as there's nowhere else which could count.

Let's consult the dictionary then shall we???

Immediate:

'Having no intervening medium'

'Very close or connected in space or time'

Lemming

FYI wrote:

Let's consult the dictionary then shall we???

Immediate:

'Having no intervening medium'

Ummmm ... didn't Manic just point out the whole "nothing else in between Ennis & Shannon airport" thing? Thus falling under your very own words of "Having no intervening medium" :rolleyes:

or are you so quick try and "win an argument on t3h 1nt0rw3b" that you can't see the wood for the trees?

RedPlanet

I think the FACT, that the Gard ushered the dopey troops inside as soon as the infraction was brought to attention; and there was no protest on the part of the soldiers, or their commander's, or the US Embassy...is conclusive proof that Ennis town is not considered within the "immediate vicinity" as refered in the 29 January 2003 Government Press Release - Statement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Has anybody been seeing dopey American Soldiers in Ennis, dumbing around in their ugly uniforms?

Manic Moran

and there was no protest on the part of the soldiers, or their commander's, or the US Embassy...is conclusive proof that Ennis town is not considered within the "immediate vicinity" as refered in the 29 January

Or maybe they concluded that as the situation was defused with nobody arrested and there was nothing else to be done, they had better things to do with their time than muck around with protests over dead issues which were unique in their occurrence.

I suggest that if you are so sure of the correct standing of your position that you or others hang out at Ennis and wait for the next flight or three to be delayed for mechanical reasons, and try for citizens' arrests on every troop you see. If it becomes annoying enough, I'm sure there will be some reaction at government/embassy levels.

In any case, let us hypothetically stipulate that Ennis is not covered by the blanket permission for wear of the uniform. Has anyone, anywhere, submitted any evidence, or even hypothesis to show that in such a case the US did not make, a 'request for exception', and indeed receive such? After all, if they were nice enough to request permission for the airport area, why wouldn't they request for Ennis?

NTM

RedPlanet

Manic Moran wrote:

Has anyone, anywhere, submitted any evidence, or even hypothesis to show that in such a case the US did not make, a 'request for exception', and indeed receive such? After all, if they were nice enough to request permission for the airport area, why wouldn't they request for Ennis?
NTM

Well i certainly can't prove a negative.
That is ridiculous.
It's is your hypothesis, you prove it.

AbusesToilets

No but you can certainly harp on about the moral greatness of someone acting like a muppet and trying to arrest a bunch of guys standing around having a smoke.

RedPlanet

AbusesToilets wrote:

No but you can certainly harp on about the moral greatness of someone acting like a muppet and trying to arrest a bunch of guys standing around having a smoke.

Not "guys", idiots : Frontline Soldiers for Freedom

Lemming

RedPlanet wrote:

Not "guys", idiots : Frontline Soldiers for Freedom

I'd not exactly consider Shannon or Ennis or pretty much anywhere in Ireland to be "on the frontline", so how could they be "frontline soldiers for freedom" since they're not on any frontline?

RedPlanet

Lemming wrote:

I'd not exactly consider Shannon or Ennis or pretty much anywhere in Ireland to be "on the frontline", so how could they be "frontline soldiers for freedom" since they're not on any frontline?

Um golly gee Lemming.... could it be that they are in transit, to the Frontline??

Fratton Fred

I suggest we declare war on the US with immediate effect.

When we start taking in all those POWs, will they be required to take off their uniforms once they leave Shannon airport (or it's imediate vicinity), if so, maybe we could get a deal from Penny's on a few thousand pairs of jeans, tee-shirts and wellies.

Better start loading the sidewinders on the Cessna's as well, this could get nasty:D

RedPlanet

POW's?
Naw, we'll just declare them "unlawful combatants" and ship them all to Craggy Island.

oscarBravo

Ennis? Shannon Airport? Iran? British sailors?

Unless I'm missing something significant, this has gone waay off-topic. I'm splitting the irrelevant posts off to a new thread though, as they're interesting in their own right.

oscarBravo

On the topic: it seems to me that the activist in question exceeded his authority in performing the citizen's arrest. Under section 4.4 of the 1997 Criminal Law Act, it is only permissible to arrest someone if you believe, with reasonable cause, that the person to be arrested would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a Garda.

The correct procedure in this case would have been to phone the Gardaí, inform them of the perceived breach of the law, and let them handle it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

was this reported in any us media? would love to see their reaction

brianthebard

Manic Moran wrote:

Long enough.



Ennis is the nearest notable town to Shannon Airport, 13 miles according to the marker. We're not exactly talking all the way to Limerick here, and as such does qualify under 'immediate vicinity'

If the troops weren't permitted to leave the airfield under any circumstances, they wouldn't say 'immediate vicinity'. If they are permitted to leave the airfield, it must be for a reason, the most likely one being acommodation for a delayed flight. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be that location. Unless you suggest they want permission to go down the road half a mile to get some mingies at the local Shell station.

NTM

You really are pulling the p!ss if you think 13 miles is the immediate vicinity.

newby.204

RedPlanet wrote:

Not "guys", idiots : Frontline Soldiers for Freedom

i think you should get yourself a life my friend and stop hassling the frontline soldier on a forum where you have anonnimity!!, they are merely doing their JOB, yes that happens to be partaking in war, however it is their job and as such you should direct your verbal assaults at US administration. And not at Joe Bloggs doing his JOB!!, Also the git who put them under "citizens arrest" should get himself a life also!!!

Dr_Teeth

Wow, what a dickhead this Conor Cregan guy is.. he even wrote the article in the 3rd person haha.. christ!

Now I'll agree that invading Iraq was the worst thing the U.S. could possibly do, and that their foreign policy is ****ing up the world big time, but acting that way toward a few lads out the stretch their legs and have a smoke after being in a warzone is just ignorant.

He could have said "Hi lads, you know, I believe you're not supposed to be walking around in uniform, you should head back to where you're staying and make sure it's ok with the police or one of your officers". But no, he puts them under (citizens) arrest and dials 999.

Dickhead!

Ru

Manic Moran wrote:

And as mentioned, is the closest town of any note. On a national, or even international level, Limerick is 'in the vicinity of Shannon'. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be the immediate vicinity, by virtue of necessity as there's nowhere else which could count

I can see where this is going......
Korea was in the vicinity of Vietnam
Iraq is in the vicinity of Afghanistan
Iran is in the vicinity Iraq.....

of course, this would be on an international level !!!



All nations are born of horror and violence; most of them have grown up by now!!!

Liam Byrne

Manic Moran wrote:

Ennis is the nearest notable town to Shannon Airport, 13 miles according to the marker. We're not exactly talking all the way to Limerick here, and as such does qualify under 'immediate vicinity'

And you said that "I" don't research things......Limerick is 8 miles from Shannon, Ennis is 13.......so we ARE talking "all the way to Limerick", and then some! Also Shannon Town is in the "immediate vicinity" of the airport, and includes shops, facilities, hotels and accommodation, not to mention Newmarket-on-Fergus (IMHO, outside the "immediate vicinity", but nearer than Ennis).

Manic Moran wrote:

If the troops weren't permitted to leave the airfield under any circumstances, they wouldn't say 'immediate vicinity'. If they are permitted to leave the airfield, it must be for a reason, the most likely one being acommodation for a delayed flight. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be that location. Unless you suggest they want permission to go down the road half a mile to get some mingies at the local Shell station.

If that's what the LAW OF THIS COUNTRY says, then that's what they should do......but the law - as adjusted for the American troops - incidentally, DOESN'T say that, because the "immediate vicinity" reference that you like quoting so much presumably DOES cover them for that half a mile.....it DOESN'T cover them for going 13 miles away!

Mind you, considering that the U.S. Administration ignored even INTERNATIONAL law, should we be surprised ?

Imagine this scenario : two Mexicans stray over the border into the U.S; one is found 500 yards inside the line, saying he was there by accident....the other was found 13 miles inside the border....would Fox News report that both were found in the "immediate vicinity" of the border ?

Likewise, if someone under house arrest was found half-a-mile away at the local shop, they MIGHT get away with it, but if they were 13 miles away, forget it....they'd be done for it.

The key word is "immediate", and even that - undemocratic - concession was abused by these guys.....but as usual, Bertie & Co decide to lick the U.S. Army's arse just in case they'd stop spending €20-odd at the Midleton Duty Free.... :mad:

Our laws say "no foreign army uniforms whatsoever" (so I was right in my statement); the U.S. curiously request a derogation from that (wonder why that's required ?); that derogation is granted, but only in the "immediate vicinity" (so even though I hadn't included this in my post, I was still right); and these U.S. troops then go one step further and then wonder why the public is annoyed ??

So if you want to discuss an actual point, feel free - it is a democracy here, after all - we haven't offically been invaded by a foreign force, even though it might look like it if you're in Shannon or its "immediate vicinity" - or even as far away as Ennis.

But don't question my knowledge of our laws and don't make excuses for people who broke the law (even despite the leeway of the derogation).

Dr Teeth wrote:

a few lads out the stretch their legs and have a smoke

Jeez, I know soldiers are trained and fit, but a 26-mile round trip to "stretch their legs" ???? That's stretching credibility to the point where the next thing they'll be claiming is that there are WMDs in.......oh - I get your point!

And keeping your example in mind, leaving aside the clothes for a sec - if you or I had a smoke somewhere that was against the law, we'd be fined or arrested......and if, for example, we were doing that while wearing something we shouldn't (since I can't think of a relevant example, let's say we were naked while in a public place) we'd be arrested.

The law is the law. If you requested (and were somehow granted) a derogation for the 120kmph speed limit on a motorway to 140kmph, and were then clocked at 150kmph, not only would you (rightly) be done for it, but I can guarantee you that the law would come down even harder on you because you were blatantly abusing the level of goodwill shown to you in giving you that derogation.

Liam Byrne

Lemming wrote:

Ummmm ... didn't Manic just point out the whole "nothing else in between Ennis & Shannon airport" thing? Thus falling under your very own words of "Having no intervening medium" :rolleyes:

Well, Manic did - but he/she was wrong, ignoring both Shannon Town and Newmarket-on-Fergus - either because it suited his/her argument to do so, or because the American army's intelligence and research isn't accurate....so no surprise with either of those, really - we've seen it all before.

Lemming wrote:

or are you so quick try and "win an argument on t3h 1nt0rw3b" that you can't see the wood for the trees?

No, as far as I see it, FYI was sticking to the facts and was 100% correct in their post; Manic adjusted the facts to suit his/her argument. Hardly a reason to attack FYI's motives, or question their reason for posting ?

P.S. I just read that government page again, and it says....

But the possession of these dreadful weapons is the immediate threat which must be dealt with.

So, since it's in the same speech, I assume that this fictional WMD threat was part of the reason for facilitiating the U.S. Government and allowing the derogation to make life easier ? And since there were/are no WMDs, should the derogation now expire so that we can go on holidays without being reminded that we are being implicated in an illegal war ?

SeanW

RedPlanet wrote:

I think the FACT, that the Gard ushered the dopey troops inside as soon as the infraction was brought to attention; and there was no protest on the part of the soldiers, or their commander's, or the US Embassy...is conclusive proof that Ennis town is not considered within the "immediate vicinity" as refered in the 29 January 2003 Government Press Release - Statement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Has anybody been seeing dopey American Soldiers in Ennis, dumbing around in their ugly uniforms?

Do us all a favour and take your idiotic anti-American insults elsewhere.

Sand

In response to the events in Ennis referred to by the OP, theres a lot Id like to say but I think it can be summed up simply enough by the abbreviation "LOL".

The great thing is the protestor did it all deadpan.

Victor

In fairness, the government and the Garda come out of this rather badly. Rather than making jokes to (at?) a complainant, the sergeant or the detective sergeant or any one other of the gardaí should have explained that the soldiers had permission. That they didn't is damning. That they didn't is symptomatic of a 'ah sure it'll be alright' attitude, which is unacceptable for a contentious issue.

The complainant had no way of knowing that they had permission.

Manic Moran wrote:

In any case, let us hypothetically stipulate that Ennis is not covered by the blanket permission for wear of the uniform. Has anyone, anywhere, submitted any evidence, or even hypothesis to show that in such a case the US did not make, a 'request for exception', and indeed receive such? After all, if they were nice enough to request permission for the airport area, why wouldn't they request for Ennis?

Ddin't they forget to request permission to transfer a prisoner?

Liam Byrne

Victor wrote:

...the sergeant or the detective sergeant or any one other of the gardaí should have explained that the soldiers had permission

Isn't that the whole point ? That they DIDN'T (and don't) have permission ?

Are you suggesting that the Gardai should lie ?

I'm anti-invasion, but not anti-American (there is a distinction, and as was pointed out the soldiers that do go through Shannon - those that go through without breaking our laws - are only doing their job; the fact that their leader is either an idiot or a conniving potential world dominatrix isn't really their fault). I don't agree with Bertie's unilateral decision not to ask us if he could allow our airport to be abused, but he did; I don't agree with the actual derogation which emphasises that Shannon is being abused due to the uniformed troops there; but they got the derogation, for better or worse.

Nope, unfortunately all of the above are done deals by our lame-ass Government, and are beyond the topic of this discussion, which is specifically related to the guys who chose to ignore our laws......personally, I'd prefer to put Bush in prison than these guys, but unfortunately the small guy is always the fall guy; having said that these guys did break the law, and just because the UN chickened out of jailing Bush doesn't mean that we should start ignoring our laws too....

RedPlanet

SeanW wrote:

Do us all a favour and take your idiotic anti-American insults elsewhere.

Oh my!
I think i've outed one of them!

My comments are not idiotic, they are not necessarily even insults, rather they are observations.
You should watch this probably, and reflect.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Manic Moran

brianthebard wrote:

You really are pulling the p!ss if you think 13 miles is the immediate vicinity.

Depends on your relative scale. I drive more than that just getting my tank from the motor pool to the range.

Limerick is 8 miles from Shannon, Ennis is 13

Granted, I eyeballed it on the map. http://www.tipp.ie/map_ireland.jpg which shows Shannon as being far closer to Ennis. So in view of the above I had a look at viamichelin.com, which makes it as near to a dead heat as makes no difference. (24.5km Limerick, 23.2km Ennis).

Also Shannon Town is in the "immediate vicinity" of the airport, and includes shops, facilities, hotels and accommodation

Do you think it is reasonable to find accommodation for a hundred fifty people (At least, that's how many my 'plane carried) on a couple of hours' notice at Shannon town? I wouldn't be surprised to find an excess which would need to be put up elsewhere. After all, Shannon Town's hotels would not be empty, waiting for a bunch of American troops to show up.

That they DIDN'T (and don't) have permission ?

An issue which still appears to be under some dispute when it comes to Ennis, but is under no dispute when it comes to Shannon Airport which appears to be your primary point of objection.

If that's what the LAW OF THIS COUNTRY says, then that's what they should do......but the law - as adjusted for the American troops

"As adjusted?" Damn. Talk about advance planning. The law (Particularly noting subsection 3: The exemption) was written in 1954.

317. —(1) No person shall, save with the consent in writing of a Minister of State, enter or land in the State while wearing any foreign uniform

(2) No person shall, save with the consent in writing of a Minister of State, go into any public place in the State while wearing any foreign uniform

(3) A Minister of State may from time to time direct that subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall not during a specified period apply in respect of any particular class (defined in such manner as he thinks fit) of persons, and in that case the said subsections shall not apply during that period in respect of that class of persons

Indeed, my understanding is that the current situation is unusual not because the Minister granted permission, but that anyone asked for it in the first place. Foreign military uniforms have been in Shannon for decades, just nobody seemed to make a big deal of it.

As an aside, an interesting note is that the excemption clause allows for exemptions based on category of person, but says nothing about geographic restrictions. It seems likely that the only way to be sure is to actually get a copy of the note the Minister sent. Perhaps some newspaper would be good enough to do a FOI request?

NTM

Moriarty

€15 will get you a FOI request all of your own.

Perhaps if anyone's actually particularly intrested in finding out exactly what the note said they could make a request and publish what they recieve here?

oscarBravo

SeanW wrote:

Do us all a favour and take your idiotic anti-American insults elsewhere.

Do me a favour and leave the moderating to me. If you've something to contribute on-topic, feel free.

RedPlanet wrote:

Oh my!
I think i've outed one of them!

My comments are not idiotic, they are not necessarily even insults, rather they are observations.

On the contrary, you've already sweepingly referred to all members of the US armed forces (at least one of whom has been posting on this thread) as "idiots". That's not an observation, it's an insult.

Moriarty wrote:

€15 will get you a FOI request all of your own.

Perhaps if anyone's actually particularly intrested in finding out exactly what the note said they could make a request and publish what they recieve here?

Now there's an idea.

Dr_Teeth

Liam Byrne wrote:

Jeez, I know soldiers are trained and fit, but a 26-mile round trip to "stretch their legs" ???? That's stretching credibility to the point where the next thing they'll be claiming is that there are WMDs in.......oh - I get your point!

What? They were on a plane, then on a bus to the hotel, then in the hotel. If I was them I'd be glad of a little walk to stretch my legs, around some GREEN countryside where no-one was trying to shoot me.

Ru

RedPlanet wrote:

POW's?
Naw, we'll just declare them "unlawful combatants" and ship them all to Craggy Island.

We would have to think up some new forms of "legal" torture,

I propose

1) We could not offer extra cheese on their prison food!
2) Remind them that they lost the Vietnam War
3) Get them to name all 50 states, alphabetically for the officers
4) Impose diets...
6) Make them watch “foreigners” speak English without subtitles
7) Make them do exams without multiple choice answers
8) Strip them, sexually degrade them, physically and mentally beat them. Defecate on their religious beliefs… oh wait… that would actually be illegal…

Hagar

If the US Army thinks 13 miles is "immediate vicinity" I think I understand how so many innocent people are killed by their "collateral bombings".

A 13 mile radius cover approx 530 sq miles by comparison all of County Louth is only about 317 sq miles. Way too much freedom if you ask me.