The M3 Motorway Support

bullfrog

http://www.petitiononline.com/nohippys/petition.html

Are you sick of being stuck in traffic on the n3 bog road? The tree huggers are protesting against the motorway and trying to delay it. Please sign the petition above to show your support for the motorway.

Ste.phen

/me agrees with the 'tree huggers' this time
Even if the environmental and heritage aspect doesn't interest you, there's no doubt some dodgy financial reasons for the current routing of the M3

paulm17781

Why not support something that will actually reduce the traffic, like rail to Navan? That will take more cars off the road than the M3 ever will.

gjim

What a stupid petition.

There are many grounds for objecting to the M3 and practically none of them have anything to do with being a hippy or loving trees.

There is no doubt that the N3 as it currently exists is a disgrace and that serious upgrades are required particularly in relation to bypasses and widening and straightening sections of it. These upgrades should have happened years ago but have been deferred (along with the rail link) to bolster the case for a privately built and operated commuter motorway which plows right through the middle of one of the most important heritage areas in the country.

There are valid reasons to object to the M3 on heritage grounds given that a route to the west would avoid plowing through an architecturally sensitive area and provide the exact same service to the area.

There are reasons to object on the basis that the M3 serves NO STRATEGIC PURPOSE from an all-Ireland perspective. The M1, N2, M4, M6, M11 all constitute parts of the inter-urban network, serving Belfast, Derry, Galway/Sligo/Castlebar, Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Killkenny and Wexford. The N3 ends in Cavan and GOES NOWHERE after that.

There are reasons to object on the basis that this is a commuter motorway and nothing more; no-one else in the civilized world is building commuter motorways anymore. It's a recipe for disaster in terms of encouraging bad planning and general misery. It's highly objectionable that this COMMUTER motorway project is being given priority over badly needed INTER-URBAN motorway projects.

There are reasons for objecting to the M3 because it's been driven by private concerns, not the public interest, and that users will be gouged by some of the highest tolls/per km for 30 years. To be honest, this doesn't bother me too much as the local politicians and a big segment of the population of Navan have acted like turkeys voting for Christmas in this regard.

There are reasons for objecting to the M3 because it has been prioritized over far superior commuter solutions like the long proposed rail link to Clonsilla.

None of these grounds for objecting have anything to do with trees or hippies. The M3 is a stupid project by any rational or strategic analysis or in terms of transport engineering.

lostexpectation

do support the double tolls bullfrog

icdg

gjim wrote:

What a stupid petition.

There are many grounds for objecting to the M3 and practically none of them have anything to do with being a hippy or loving trees.


There are reasons to object on the basis that the M3 serves NO STRATEGIC PURPOSE from an all-Ireland perspective. The M1, N2, M4, M6, M11 all constitute parts of the inter-urban network, serving Belfast, Derry, Galway/Sligo/Castlebar, Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Killkenny and Wexford. The N3 ends in Cavan and GOES NOWHERE after that.

Actually, it does head north, become various A-roads for a bit, and then re-emerge in Donegal to serve that sprawling metropolis of Ballyshannon!

What the government needs to consider is, if we are going to build a high quality road (HQDC/motorway) between Dublin and Derry, what route it should take. Arguably the N3 serves more population centres along the way (its northern section could be on a new alignment nearer the A5 than the A-roads the N3 theoretically takes) On the other hand, the N2 stays clear of anything remotely controversial, but the only real population centres it serves are Ashbourne and Monaghan (up north, there's also Omagh).

Build either the M2 or M3. There are arguments for both routes. But not both of them...

Victor

Bullfrog banned for shilling and spamming.

Stark

Grand total of 15 signatures so far. That'll show everyone.

Tbh, I didn't care much about the motorway when it was just the hill of Tara that was under threat. The discovery of the Lismullen site has changed my opinion though. The destruction of the site and the "preservation by record" cop out is definitely a cause for concern. That and what previous posters have mentioned about the questionable motives for building the motorway.

Happy Bertie

Will someone tell me why heritage is more important to some when somebody like me rates a gleaming new motorway as 100 times more important. I've lived in Chicago for 15 years where I'm surrounded by mostly 20th century transportation infrastructure almost every where I go. I still get goosebumps when I see a three stack free flow expressway interchange and the efficiencies that come with it. I marvel at a freight train with 190 wagons weighing about 10,000 tons total being pulled by six 4000hp locomotives going over a river on a 1500 foot bridge. This is my type of heritage. The type of heritage that benefits millions of people. Yes, by all means, document and photograph the artifacts discovered, preserve them in a museum, but don't sacrafice modern heritage for the sake of ancient heritage, because none of us would have wanted to live in those ancient times for very long unless you were the monarchy or equivalent.

The M3 is the missing spoke in Ireland's radial network and it's not the end destination that is critical, it's the places and areas along its route that will develop in the future due to the motorway. The M50 would rank in one of the top 5 reasons for Ireland's economic success.

In the United States it has been proven that for every dollar invested in road infrastructure gives 18 cents per year return on investment, so for example, road infrastructure in its first 30 years gives 5 to 6 times back in economic prosperity.
Most European research comes to the same positve conclusions http://www.erf.be/content/general/detail/2332

The M3 is our heritage of today and people many generations from now will marvel at Ireland's new road network just like I do today.

gjim

Sorry Happy Bertie, we've heard it all before.

There are three broad appoaches to defending the M3 which have been trotted out time and time again. The first (bullfrog's approach) is to denigrate anyone who opposes it as a tree-hugger, a hippy, or a D4-type, etc. The second is to turn it into a philosophy debate (heritage versus people) and suggest that those who oppose it have no concerns for the welfare of the current population. The third (which is less common here) is that X (insert other town) got a Y (insert other piece of infrastructure) and Navan got nothing.

As you can see, the key to defending the M3 is to completely AVOID addressing any of the specific criticisms of the scheme and to either personalise the argument and/or retreat to generalities. This the classic politician's approach to debate in order to avoid the findings and opinions of heritage experts, transport engineers or professional planners.

You have brought something novel to the debate however:

In the United States it has been proven that for every dollar invested in road infrastructure gives 18 cents per year return on investment, so for example, road infrastructure in its first 30 years gives 5 to 6 times back in economic prosperity.

This is a completely and deliberately misleading. If the M3 were transpanted to where motorway is needed (eliminating the inter-urban bottlenecks - along the M8, for example) then it could produce those sort of economic benfits. Build 30 miles of motorway around Achill island for example and it certainly will not. I'd be great if just building roads anywhere produced 18% return on investment since the government can borrow at less than 5% long term. We could forget about industry, exports, services and just concentrate on building roads all over the country generating this free money which has been "proven" to be generated.

Victor

gjim wrote:

The third (which is less common here) is that X (insert other town) got a Y (insert other piece of infrastructure) and Navan got nothing.

As of now, neither Navan or Kells are getting a bypass yet, only Dunshaughlin.

MLM

Happy Bertie wrote:

Will someone tell me why heritage is more important to some when somebody like me rates a gleaming new motorway as 100 times more important. I've lived in Chicago for 15 years where I'm surrounded by mostly 20th century transportation infrastructure almost every where I go. I still get goosebumps when I see a three stack free flow expressway interchange and the efficiencies that come with it. I marvel at a freight train with 190 wagons weighing about 10,000 tons total being pulled by six 4000hp locomotives going over a river on a 1500 foot bridge. This is my type of heritage. The type of heritage that benefits millions of people.

Big difference between Chicago and Kells though, isn't there?

JupiterKid

The M3 is too overblown for this route. I fully support the building of motorways where they're needed - and Ireland has badly needed them for decades - but the M3 is too grandiose for what is essentially a commuter route into Dublin from Navan and Kells.

What happened to the much pronmised rail link from navan to Dublin? It's been promised by the govt. time and time again and still not one inch of track has been laid. This rail link would be of enormous benefit to Navan based commuters. In fact, there's a lobby group that are trying to upgrade the existing rail link from Navan to Drogheda to serve commuters. They make a very convincing arguement.

The Lismullin site controversy will not go away. The M3 should never have been routed through the Tara-Skryne valley. It would have been far better to link the new N2 Ashbourne bypass over to Navan via Kentstown to create a good quality route from Navan to Dublin without going anywhere near Tara.

Happy Bertie

Someone mentioned to build motorways when they are needed, what happened to the concept of futureproofing? It's not like this is Achill, it's an area ranging from 10 to 40 miles from Dublin. The route of the M3 is a radial midway along the arc subtended from the M4 to the M1, so it will give a balanced distribution of future development in the Dublin hinterlands. Some would say my thinking is flawed, but I think a home on a quarter acre site is a goal or preference many would strive for and one of the ways to achieve this is both a radial and beltway motorway system around a major urban area. I've lived in both dense housing areas and a home on a quarter acre lot. The latter is far preferable even if there is a higher overall cost. The flawed thinking of US (where I live) planners has served me and millions of Americans well. For me New York city was the most dreadful place to live in the US. Don't let Dublin become like New York. Some types of urban sprawl are good. Take Sydney, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Atlanta. All cities are really nice places to live 20 to 30 miles out near their beltway expressways. One can always find exceptions but in general terms you can't beat them.

Happy Bertie

Someone mentioned to build motorways when they are needed, what happened to the concept of futureproofing? It's not like this is Achill, it's an area ranging from 10 to 40 miles from Dublin. The route of the M3 is a radial midway along the arc subtended from the M4 to the M1, so it will give a balanced distribution of future development in the Dublin hinterlands. Some would say my thinking is flawed, but I think a home on a quarter acre site is a goal or preference many would strive for and one of the ways to achieve this is both a radial and beltway motorway system around a major urban area. I've lived in both dense housing areas and a home on a quarter acre lot. The latter is far preferable even if there is a higher overall cost. The "flawed" thinking (not) of US (where I live) planners has served me and millions of Americans well. For me New York city was the most dreadful place to live in the US. Don't let Dublin become like New York. Some types of urban sprawl are good. Take Sydney, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Atlanta. All cities are really nice places to live 20 to 30 miles out near their beltway expressways. One can always find exceptions but in general terms you can't beat them.

BrianD

What a waste of time petition! The M3 is being built irrespective of any protests. That's a done deal.

If you want to have a petition why not ask the following:

Why two tolls on the route? One of which is positioned to discourage the use of the park and ride facility at Pace.

Why is the M3 tolled and not the N2 which is also built to m-way standard but not designated.

Why build the M3 when upgrades and bypasses approved years ago could be open by now?

Fair play to the so called hippies. If the NRA and the planners did their job in the first place they wouldn't need to doing what they are doing. Even the State agrees with that.

Skyhater

BrianD wrote:

Why is the M3 tolled and not the N2 which is also built to m-way standard but not designated.

Because the private companies will make more money on the M3!!!!

I'm not against tolls....... It's private companies operating tolls that i hate!

As i said in other posts, Government run tolls can be a good thing if the money raised is ringfenced and spend on public transport or the road/bridge being tolled.
People need transparency... once the road is paid for - REMOVE THE TOLL!!!

Irish and Proud

I am a road enthusiast, but I have to agree that Meath is the pits when it comes to public transport or any other alternatives such as walking or cycling. Funny enough, I don't drive, and due to the cost of motoring and future oil uncertainty, I don't intend to if I can get away with it. Regarding our public transport, particularly in East Meath (where I live), it is virtually non existent. Although I support Meath GAA, I certainly don't support the council - they are a total disgrace!!! :mad:

The East Meath area has seen massive residential developments which happen to feed the coffers in Navan, but very little seems to be spent on any transport (or anything else!) which directly benefits the local people - even roads. There are roads that are as busy as national primary routes, but are only up to 6m in width, and that's without any footpaths (one which I know a lot a people walk on), or proper verges. On top of that, Meath CC resurfaced a section of the old N1 (R132) (still very busy) and tore up the hard shoulders, and provided no footpath or cycle track thereafter. Where the hell are the pedestrians and cyclists supposed to go now? Well, I guess they can go to hell, just like I can! :mad:

So for anyone complaining about Meath, the message is "If you don't have a car, you have no business in the county" - something which would fit into the Thatcherite mentality nicely: "If you are not driving by the time you're 30, then you are a failure!" Well, I guess I better pack my bags then - shame on Meath CC!!! BTW, the Rural Transport Initiative seems like a great idea - have heard about the Meath Rural Transport Project and it's very impressive - it will hopefully lend weight towards addressing the serious imbalance that currently exists in the county. Of course, I'm not anti-car, but the powers that be in Meath seem to be of the auto-totalitarian variety.

Finally, why can't the Navan to Drogheda railway be developed and connected to extra buses which could use the M1 and Port Tunnel into Dublin - Oh gosh, I'm so sorry, I've just ruined the brilliant excuse for not developing the railway, Northern Rail Line and Enterprise Congestion at Rush Hour - Oh, what have I done??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: - Just cut the cr** and do it! :mad:

Rant Over!

_Kaiser_

Irish and Proud wrote:

I am a road enthusiast, but I have to agree that Meath is the pits when it comes to public transport or any other alternatives such as walking or cycling. Funny enough, I don't drive, and due to the cost of motoring and future oil uncertainty, I don't intend to if I can get away with it. Regarding our public transport, particularly in East Meath (where I live), it is virtually non existent. Although I support Meath GAA, I certainly don't support the council - they are a total disgrace!!! :mad:

The East Meath area has seen massive residential developments which happen to feed the coffers in Navan, but very little seems to be spent on any transport (or anything else!) which directly benefits the local people - even roads. There are roads that are as busy as national primary routes, but are only up to 6m in width, and that's without any footpaths (one which I know a lot a people walk on), or proper verges. On top of that, Meath CC resurfaced a section of the old N1 (R132) (still very busy) and tore up the hard shoulders, and provided no footpath or cycle track thereafter. Where the hell are the pedestrians and cyclists supposed to go now? Well, I guess they can go to hell, just like I can! :mad:

So for anyone complaining about Meath, the message is "If you don't have a car, you have no business in the county" - something which would fit into the Thatcherite mentality nicely: "If you are not driving by the time you're 30, then you are a failure!" Well, I guess I better pack my bags then - shame on Meath CC!!! BTW, the Rural Transport Initiative seems like a great idea - have heard about the Meath Rural Transport Project and it's very impressive - it will hopefully lend weight towards addressing the serious imbalance that currently exists in the county. Of course, I'm not anti-car, but the powers that be in Meath seem to be of the auto-totalitarian variety.

Finally, why can't the Navan to Drogheda railway be developed and connected to extra buses which could use the M1 and Port Tunnel into Dublin - Oh gosh, I'm so sorry, I've just ruined the brilliant excuse for not developing the railway, Northern Rail Line and Enterprise Congestion at Rush Hour - Oh, what have I done??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: - Just cut the cr** and do it! :mad:

Rant Over!

I agree with most of your points - except that Meath CC can't even get basic road surfacing right. Take Navan itself - specifically the Athboy road, parts of the Nobber road, town centre itself (particularly that stretch where the CIE buses load/unload - can't think of the name of it, but it's in shocking condition).

I don't think it's Meath CC you need to be venting your anger at though with regards to public transport though.. surely that's more of a CIE/Bus Eireann/IE issue? You are right though that public transport in the area is practically non-existent unless you're just travelling along the N3.

MarkoP11

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I don't think it's Meath CC you need to be venting your anger at though with regards to public transport though.. surely that's more of a CIE/Bus Eireann/IE issue?

When you have Meath CC digging up and blocking the railway alignment from Navan without consultation with Irish Rail you do have a problem, then trying to deny it going as far as to mislead the public, http://platform11.org/campaigns/navan/response.php

The original plans submitted for the M3 blocked the railway alignment, it was only at An Board Pleanala did the needed bridge get added to the plans

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by gjim: Build 30 miles of motorway around Achill island for example

Not Achill Island but on the N5 route please..............(nice to dream every now and again!!!)

gjim

Not Achill Island but on the N5 route please...........

Going off topic here but I agree, parts of the N5 are an absolute disgrace. Dunno whether it warrents motorway, 'though.

icdg

Wide S2 would do, traffic is nowhere near motorway levels. However, the most important N5 project IMO would be a bypass of Longford, why one wasn't built when they were doing the N4 Longford bypass I have no idea.

Irish and Proud

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I agree with most of your points - except that Meath CC can't even get basic road surfacing right. Take Navan itself - specifically the Athboy road, parts of the Nobber road, town centre itself (particularly that stretch where the CIE buses load/unload - can't think of the name of it, but it's in shocking condition).

I don't think it's Meath CC you need to be venting your anger at though with regards to public transport though.. surely that's more of a CIE/Bus Eireann/IE issue? You are right though that public transport in the area is practically non-existent unless you're just travelling along the N3.

About road surfacing, you're quire right about that too - also many rural roads which are resurfaced haven't their edges properly supported, so the sides frequently break away and eventually become very dangerous crevasses!

Now, I know that CIE are the primary policy makers when it comes to public transport, but as Meath Co Co have planned (did I say planned? :rolleyes:) for massive residential development, they have a duty to lobby for public transport provision in light of such, especially when their coffers are being filled by the greater population. I wouldn't let that shower off the hook mate!

Regards!

spacetweek

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I agree with most of your points - except that Meath CC can't even get basic road surfacing right. Take Navan itself - specifically the Athboy road, parts of the Nobber road, town centre itself (particularly that stretch where the CIE buses load/unload - can't think of the name of it, but it's in shocking condition).

This is true! I live near Clonee and worked near it for several years. I never cease to be amazed that after all this time, they still seem to be completely unable to repair the streets in the town. What really galls me is that about 4years ago they resurfaced it... but apparently only the central part of the road, leaving the edges near the footpaths to distintegrate ever further, they now consist of gravel!! It just boggles the mind. :rolleyes:

Irish and Proud

spacetweek wrote:

This is true! I live near Clonee and worked near it for several years. I never cease to be amazed that after all this time, they still seem to be completely unable to repair the streets in the town. What really galls me is that about 4years ago they resurfaced it... but apparently only the central part of the road, leaving the edges near the footpaths to distintegrate ever further, they now consist of gravel!! It just boggles the mind. :rolleyes:

It boggles your mind???

Really? :rolleyes:

It's Meath Co Co were talking about here mate!
They're the greatest shower that ever hit this island! :mad:

westtip

Happy Bertie wrote:

The M3 is the missing spoke in Ireland's radial network and it's not the end destination that is critical, it's the places and areas along its route that will develop in the future due to the motorway. The M50 would rank in one of the top 5 reasons for Ireland's economic success.

.

HB - Don't you mean in Dublin's Radial Network - which all leads to interchange called the M50. With the M1 running North and with a much improved N2 running north and the M3 - we will essentially have three motorways running from the radial dial of the M50 through Meath about 15 miles apart! another case of national planning buffoonery. The M3 is no more than a comuter corridor road to Navan/Kells which will very expensive to use on a daily basis (in fact the cost of using it may result in the N3 being continued as the main road) - no doubt the current N3 does not work efficiently but traffic flows on this road outside the peak rush hour times will be pitiful in terms of road efficiency. Regarding travelling from donegal Derry and the border counties - there is a simpler solution which FF actually had in their manifesto - a High Quality corridor from Sligo to Dundalk - which would provide a quick route to the M1 East Coast corridor. It would mean very little in added journey time to swing east at Eniskillen (coming from Donegal) or at Monaghan (coming from Derry) to join the M1` Corridor - in fact to get to Dublin Airport - a key part of National infrastucture it would be better to take this route as it avoids the M50. This would also build a grid system nationally - with essentially a large rectangle in the form of the Atlantic Road Corridor from Letterkenny to Waterford sweeping south linking Letterkenny/Sligo.Galway/Limerick/Cork/Waterford - an improved Waterford/Wexford link to the N11 then the eastern corridor to N11/M50/M1 and a cross country link in the shape of the M/N6 Dublin Galway route and some interlinking in the south of the country in the shape of the N/M7 and N/M9 and the cross border route completing the grid from Dundalk/Monaghan/Enniskillen/Sligo - a system like this woudl serve the entire country the M3 is a result of the PD obsession with PPP, and actually makes little planning sense at all - yes upgrade the N3 but HQDC and 2+1 3 would probably have sufficed the key issue was a seamless road that kept out of towns.

The M3 and the Tara Skyrne issue has now become an emotional political football and the gob****e we have running this country has not a care for heritage in his small minded brain - as long as he has his sky remote, his pint of Bass and a season ticket for MUFC he has all he thinks the rest of us should aspire to. We are lead by a gombeen.

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by Westtip: yes upgrade the N3 but HQDC and 2+1 3 would probably have sufficed

Yes. A HQDC would have been ok for this route. Too late to stop it now I would say though. Driving out of Kells going south on the N52 (Mullingar side) last week, I noticed some new site entrances on the left with associated signage for the M3 scheme. This is probably to do the M3/N52 bypass section of Kells.

Happy Bertie

Mayo Exile wrote:

Yes. A HQDC would have been ok for this route. Too late to stop it now I would say though. Driving out of Kells going south on the N52 (Mullingar side) last week, I noticed some new site entrances on the left with associated signage for the M3 scheme. This is probably to do the M3/N52 bypass section of Kells.

HQDC.....motorway...same thing costwise except for the extra yellow paint between the dashes to make them continuous lines and having a green to blue makeover on the signs.

Politically, if they called it the N3 HQDC from the start, there wouldn't be half the uproar that there is now... and then the change from N3 to M3 afterwards could be done at the stroke of a pen.

westtip

Happy Bertie wrote:

HQDC.....motorway...same thing costwise except for the extra yellow paint between the dashes to make them continuous lines and having a green to blue makeover on the signs.

Politically, if they called it the N3 HQDC from the start, there wouldn't be half the uproar that there is now... and then the change from N3 to M3 afterwards could be done at the stroke of a pen.

....Ah yes but....HQDC = no tolls, so not quite da same ting Bertie.

jlang

westtip wrote:

....Ah yes but....HQDC = no tolls, so not quite da same ting Bertie.

That's true based on the schemes so far, but I don't think it need necessarily always be so. There are motorways with no tolls, so why can't they build tolled non-motorways? (I'm not in favour of tolls except for traffic management, just saying they could do it.