30km/h Speed Limit for Dublin City Centre

cyclopath2001

30kmh limit for city cars
Irish Independent, Friday August 03 2007

MOTORISTS will have to drive much slower in Dublin after it was decided to cut the current sped limit from 50kmh to 30kmh.

It will apply throughout Dublin city centre and along the quays.

The far slower speed limit is being introduced to help prevent the deaths of cyclists and pedestrians, sources claim.

The NRA has agreed to delist all of the roads inside the M50 as national primary routes to facilitate the new limit.

It's inevitable that motoring lobby groups will depict this as 'shooting fish in a barrel' and a 'revenue generation exercise'. But, I'm not sure that this will make the roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians. The problems in the city centre are inappropriate overtaking, making phone calls while driving, running red lights, stopping on pedestrian crossings and breaches of the 50kph limit.

I'd be happy if they'd put in cycle tracks on the narrow sections of the city quays, gave more time for pedestrians to cross and enforced the 50kph limit.

_Kaiser_

Wonderful.. it takes long enough to get through town as it is. :rolleyes:

This will do nothing except indeed raise additional revenue in speeding fines, and cause more accidents and frustration on the roads as those who ignore this new limit (ie: almost everyone I'd predict) cut in and out of lanes to get around the few that do.

Does this apply to buses too? - kinda defeats the idea of the shiny new buslane along the quays. And how are they defining "city centre"?

Yet another knee-jerk reaction to be seen to be doing something but which will in reality cause more problems than it solves imo.

mikemac

Pedestrians have their part to play too. If you've ever tried to drive or cycle on O'Connell St past the Spire you'll know that when your lights turn green, people just keep on crossing the road and give dirty looks as you try to move.

Or even worse, some push their childs buggy in front of you forcing you to stop:eek:

_Kaiser_

micmclo wrote:

Pedestrians have their part to play too. If you've ever tried to drive or cycle on O'Connell St past the Spire you'll know that when your lights turn green, people just keep on crossing the road and give dirty looks as you try to move.

Or even worse, some push their childs buggy in front of you forcing you to stop:eek:

Yep.. It'd be interesting to see how many of the people killed in traffic accidents in the city centre area (did I miss a massive increase in the numbers incidentially?) were jay-walking.

bazzer

What a load of crap. This will only encourage more people to play more cat-and-mouse with the traffic. Red lights also apply to pedestrians, in case they didn't know. Will we see a new enforceable offence of jaywalking anytime soon?

OTK

If the intention was to slow down traffic and improve road safety, it might have been better to just increase the length of time the green man stays on at pedestrian crossings as done in London 5 years ago.

The existing 50kph limit isn't enforced. Has anyone seen a speed trap in the city centre ever?

seamus

It won't make a difference. People will continue to drive at 50km/h when they can. I know I will.

The problem is as others has pointed out - facilities for pedestrians and cyclists, and enforcement of those facilities. Drive through Dublin at either rush hour or after 9pm Thurs-Sat, and the pedestrians are just wandering around, completely oblivious, on and off the road without even taking a glance.

Cyclists can easily get above 30km/h in the areas this will apply to - will the Gardai be fining them too?

mike65

Sounds like another idea not thought through and not addressing the real causes of pedestrian/cyclist fatalities (bad driving).

Mike.

Tails142

bazzer wrote:

What a load of crap. This will only encourage more people to play more cat-and-mouse with the traffic. Red lights also apply to pedestrians, in case they didn't know. Will we see a new enforceable offence of jaywalking anytime soon?

Quoted for truth - I think you will see a lot more people walking between moving traffic trying to cross roads and if anything lead to more fender benders as people will be up each others ass fuming that they have to crawl along at 30kmh.

Terrontress

There is a school of thought which states that a lower speed limit requires less stopping distance between cars therefore more cars can fit onto the same space of road.

But to be honest, at busy times, the idea of 30km/h is a luxury.

Jip

As has been already hinted at, how many pedestrians and cyclists have been killed by speeding motorists in the city centre ? From what I can remember probably all cyclists have been killed by trucks not seeing them at junctions and corners, probably same applies to pedestrians, I don't remember reading or hearing about speeding motorists being involved.

Ciaran500

seamus wrote:

Cyclists can easily get above 30km/h in the areas this will apply to - will the Gardai be fining them too?

Nope, no speed limits for bikes.

spockety

OTK wrote:

If the intention was to slow down traffic and improve road safety, it might have been better to just increase the length of time the green man stays on at pedestrian crossings as done in London 5 years ago.

The existing 50kph limit isn't enforced. Has anyone seen a speed trap in the city centre ever?

Yes, they are regularly on the south edge of St Stephens Green.

Ciaran500

Ciaran500 wrote:

Nope, no speed limits for bikes.

you sure about that? From a previous discussion, I remember being told that in irish law, a bike is seen as a car, and must follow all rules that a car must, speed limits included.

One of my friend's boyfriend has also been banned from cycling after he overtook a garda car that was doing the speed limit...

I think cyclists will have to be careful alright.

Stark

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Does this apply to buses too? - kinda defeats the idea of the shiny new buslane along the quays.

That was my thought too when I read it.

Deleted User wrote:

you sure about that? From a previous discussion, I remember being told that in irish law, a bike is seen as a car, and must follow all rules that a car must, speed limits included.

Yup. Cyclists have been pulled over at the Chapelizod bypass for breaking the speed limit.

is_that_so

Considering the average speed is only 5 kph , anything is an improvement. I can understand its use on streets heavily frequented by pedestrians or even outside schools, but surely the likes of the Quays and D'Olier St/Westmoreland St/Dame Street are facilitating the movement of traffic. Agree about bikes , some of them think they're in a race. Saw a chap bellow " Coming through" as he ploughed into pedestrians on Kildare Street and then had the gall to shout "So ****ing sue me" from the ground.

BrianD

OTK wrote:

If the intention was to slow down traffic and improve road safety, it might have been better to just increase the length of time the green man stays on at pedestrian crossings as done in London 5 years ago.

The existing 50kph limit isn't enforced. Has anyone seen a speed trap in the city centre ever?

Yes, Fitzwilliam St, St. Stephens Green South and along the north quays near Heuston.

I don't think the 30Km limit is a real problem ... you are moving at a crawl most of the time. Doesn't O'Connell St have a 30K limit already?

_Kaiser_

BrianD wrote:

Yes, Fitzwilliam St, St. Stephens Green South and along the north quays near Heuston.

I don't think the 30Km limit is a real problem ... you are moving at a crawl most of the time. Doesn't O'Connell St have a 30K limit already?

You're moving at a crawl - at rush hour.

What about off-peak hours, or at night when the place is virtually empty??

September (when the schools are back) will be a nightmare. Firstly a (now effectively redundant) bus lane along the quays, and now a stupidly low limit. :rolleyes: :mad:

Ciaran500

Stark wrote:

Yup. Cyclists have been pulled over at the Chapelizod bypass for breaking the speed limit.

Pretty sure I've read there is no speed limits for non motorised vehicles.

mackerski

is_that_so wrote:

Saw a chap bellow " Coming through" as he ploughed into pedestrians on Kildare Street and then had the gall to shout "So ****ing sue me" from the ground.

Where's an angry mob when you need one?

Sangre

From Road Traffic Act 1968

"General speed limit.

44A (1) The Minister may make regulations limit prescribing, in respect of all public roads, or all public roads with such exceptions as may be specified in the regulations, a speed limit (which shall be known as a general speed limit) for all mechanically propelled vehicles.

(2) Regulations under this section prescribing a general speed limit may except any class of vehicles from the limit and may restrict the limit to a particular period or to particular periods."

Last time I checked a bicycle isn't a mechanically propelled vehicle. There have been a few amendments to this Act since 1968 but they all use the same term. I don't see how speed limits apply to bikes under the Road Traffic Acts. Is there any other legislation that might apply to them?

seamus

What's the definition of "mechanically propelled"? While I would agree that the work(effort) is not done by a mechanical system, the vehicle depends on mechanical means to convert that work into propulsion. Remove the mechanics, and all you have is a stationary bike and some guy spinning his legs around in circeles - i.e. no propulsion.

It may seem like an inane argument, but you can see the logic.

I did find an act from 1933 (closed it though ) which classified mechanically propelled vehicles into four classes - Motorcycles, motor car, light good vehicles and heavy goods vehicles. Since a bicycle is definitely not one of these, perhaps this could be taken as a "definition".

monument

OTK wrote:

The existing 50kph limit isn't enforced. Has anyone seen a speed trap in the city centre ever?

Yes, at least twice in the last two weeks and in that time, besides working two days, I haven't been out of the house much.

Wishbone Ash

OTK wrote:

Has anyone seen a speed trap in the city centre ever?

Yes, regularly on the quays and Lower Dorset Street and occasionally on St Stephen's Green and Gardiner Street.

LFCFan

how many speed limit signs are actually in the city centre? I can't remember seeing any. I've seen 1 speed check on the Quays once. The times when it would be most dangerous for predestrians when cars are speeding around the city is the times when traffic is crawling. This is yet another knee jerk reaction that could end up with more accidents instead of cutting them. Is there ever any real thought put into the laws of this country?

lostexpectation

where could you /would you do 50km/h in the cty centre? (me not being a driver)

Stark

lostexpectation wrote:

where could you /would you do 50km/h in the cty centre? (me not being a driver)

You'd easily do 50km/hr on the quays when it's quiet. (I've seen people do a lot more, though they'd be driving wrecklessly imo).

mackerski

LFCFan wrote:

how many speed limit signs are actually in the city centre? I can't remember seeing any. I've seen 1 speed check on the Quays once. The times when it would be most dangerous for predestrians when cars are speeding around the city is the times when traffic is crawling. This is yet another knee jerk reaction that could end up with more accidents instead of cutting them. Is there ever any real thought put into the laws of this country?

They tend only to occur on the interface of 30 and 50 zones (of which there weren't any until about a year ago). This isn't a biggy, since the default urban speed limit is 50 and Everyone Knows That(tm). You can be very sure that, if they do go through with such a hare-brained scheme, there will be 30-repeater signs as far as the eye can see.

I'll say again what I said here last time there was the threat of 30 zones on roads like Westmoreland Street: the only way 30 zones can bring greater pedestrian safety is by applying them strategically, either to roads that physically require it (like William St. South or the other narrow ones in that area near Grafton St.) or to roads where, by discouraging cars from using them, you can acheive a reduction in vehicle numbers.

These two approaches can only help if there are major through routes with the characteristics that encourage their use by motor vehicles. In real terms, this means that there have to be roads through the city centre that permit reasonable speeds. 50km/h is not excessive, and, as others have pointed out, no evidence is being presented to suggest that traffic travelling at these speeds has been contributing to accidents.

I have to agree here with cyclopath2001 - something I rarely do on matters of road use - there is a safety problem on the streets, and it won't be addressed by this measure. Drivers who drive carelessly at 50 will drive even more carelessly at 30. Cyclists and pedestrians who believe that everyone else is responsible for their safety will take even more risks on a road that is supposed to be running at 30. It would be far better to tackle root cause rather than picking a strategy at random.

"Something must be done".

"This is something".

"Let's do it"

Sangre

From the Road Traffic Act 1961 (this seems to be the prinicple act on which all the subsequent amendments are based on). The 1968 Act I quoted above gets its definition of 'mechanically propelled vehicle' from this Act.

"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;


I can't see a bicycle falling under that definition, in fact they seem to specifically excluded it as they separate define a bicycle:

"pedal bicycle" means a bicycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon;

delop

bazzer wrote:

What a load of crap. This will only encourage more people to play more cat-and-mouse with the traffic. Red lights also apply to pedestrians, in case they didn't know. Will we see a new enforceable offence of jaywalking anytime soon?

Saw a Jay-walker cross in front of a motor cycle garda on the quays on morning, the Garda lent foreward too the news paper from under the guys arm and hit him over the head with it...

Was quite funny, dont know if thats classed as enforcement though :-)

cyclopath2001

Sangre wrote:

I can't see a bicycle falling under that definition,

A speeding cyclist could be done for driving without care or consideration for others. No doubt, an observant Garda would be quick to seize any speedometer on the bike.

I ride a lightweight and it's quite easy to get up to 30kph, especially with a following wind. I usually leave it at that because, in the city, too many things can happen too quickly beyond that speed.

They'll need to change the law on cycle tracks so that motorised vehicles cannot drive in them, otherwise, cyclists will be getting a lung-full of fumes.

Travelling down the south quays between 8am and 9am once you get past Capel Street bridge, it's a free-for-all. The national deficit could be cleared up by placing a speed trap there for a few weeks.

The one positive argument I've seen in favour of the limit is the quite dramatic improval in the survival rate for victims of collisions at 30kph.