Last Straw???

davyjose

After the damage done after last years tour (and gradually in the preceding 10 years) can cycling recover from this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6914301.stm

Sad!

Stark

Is it any worse that what's going on in athletics and other sports?

Inquitus

No other sport has such a litany of drug cheats winning it's flagship event.

2006 Floyd Landis USA 89h 39m 30s 3639 Phonak - Failed Drug Test, pending outcome
2005 Lance Armstrong USA 86h 15m 02s 3607 Discovery - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
2004 Lance Armstrong USA 83h 36m 02s 3391 US Postal - Berry Floor - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
2003 Lance Armstrong USA 83h 41m 12s 3427 US Postal - Berry Floor - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
2002 Lance Armstrong USA 82h 05m 12s 3278 US Postal Service - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
2001 Lance Armstrong USA 86h 17m 28s 3453 US Postal Service - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
2000 Lance Armstrong USA 92h 33m 08s 3662 US Postal Service - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
1999 Lance Armstrong USA 91h 32m 16s 3687 US Postal Service - Lots of smoke but nothing proven
1998 Marco Pantani Italy 92h 49m 46s 3850 Mercatone Uno - Bianchi - Proven Drug Cheat
1997 Jan Ullrich Germany 100h 30m 35s 3950 Team Deutsche Telekom - DNA evidence of Blood doping in the Eufemiano Fuentes' case
1996 Bjarne Riis Denmark 95h 57m 16s 3753 Team Deutsche Telekom - Self confessed drug cheat

Athletics is probably the closest

Los Angeles 1984 Athletics 100m Men LEWIS, Carl - Lots of smoke
Seoul 1988 Athletics 100m Men JOHNSON, Ben - Convicted Drug Cheat
Barcelona 1992 Athletics 100m Men CHRISTIE, Linford - Failed Drug Test
Atlanta 1996 Athletics 100m Men BAILEY, Donovan - Clean
Sydney 2000 Athletics 100m Men GREENE, Maurice - Coach involved with Blaco
Athens 2004 Athletics 100m Men GATLIN, Justin - Convicted Drug Cheat

oneeyedsnake

They should be given life bans along with prison sentences,also countries like china should be forced to allow round the year random tests from the ioc.I love cycling but haven't even bothered watching the tour this year as all pro cycling is a farce in my eyes hell even club cyclists are on EPO these days.

vladimirtheass

This is such a kick in the teeth for cycling, while so many in the cycling world try to kick the doping problem ,that was and unfortunately still seems endemic in the sport, out of cycling for the good of it's image, the riders, sponsors and the fans (who at the moment are turning away by the second). Every day I log onto cycling websites in the hope that it isn't a doping scandal that's top of the news but today again I, like countless others, saw the gutt wrenching news of another doping scandal in the tour de France. McQuaid etc seem to be doing their best within the confines of the law to kick it out and this years peleton is probably the cleanest yet but the cheats still remain. McQuaid seems to be the first President to show leadership in the fight against doping as most of his predecessors seemed happy to sweep this "little" problem under the rug. No doubt that if McQuaid could, he'd simply f**k anyone caught doping out of cycling for good but apparently in this world you need to be given a second chance. BULL****, if you dope and get caught, you're a liar and a cheat with no place in sport.

Rasmussen should, like the Astana team, be asked to retire from the tour because this guys TT performance and not being where he should for 4 random tests just smack of a cheat. Vino and anyone found doping should be thrown out of the sport for good, a life time ban from competitive riding, coaching and team management. Mandatory lifetime bans for doping and massive fines are the only way to stop this repulsive culture.

Operation Puerto and the Floyd Landis farse seemed the lowest point for cycling but I'm not going to hold my breath. Hopefully the winner of this years Tour can be proved to be 100% clean, otherwise we're on death row.

I hope that the new generation of Contador, Schleck, Decker, Cavendish, and Roche etc. are clean; I want to believe they are because if they are not, they will be one of the last generations of professional cyclists. Our sport cannot keep absorbing these scandals without eventually destroying itself. We will only have to blame the greedy, unethical, immoral, lying, retched individuals within the sport itself to thank for its death if it happens.

mike65

I have no interest in cycling but in the interests of fair play and decency, professional cycling should be ended as of now. The regulators appear to have no firm way of stopping cheats and the cheats will do pretty much anything to succeed. Not a happy mix.

Mike.

Pherekydes

mike65 wrote:

The regulators appear to have no firm way of stopping cheats and the cheats will do pretty much anything to succeed.

Mike.

Surely this can be applied to any human undertaking?

E@gle.

will Dr ferrari get the blame for this too?

davyjose

Stark wrote:

Is it any worse that what's going on in athletics and other sports?

I don't think this is a great justification for what is happening. The Tour de France has always been such a noble endeavour, and in the last few years - particularly since Festina in '98 - the sport has suffered horrifically from drug scandals. This makes it all the more tragic.
Yes, you could say the same for athletics, but is it acceptable that cycling is at this level - even if it were the lesser of two evils (and it probably isn't) it's still not a great situation.
I fear that the sport (outside of its European stranglehold) will never recover from this, which is a shame, cos I always loved the Tour.

iregk

Well what could well happen and indeed is happening is a split in the sport. As the guys on eurosport were saying on Monday was how the banned riders were simply moving teams.

So what we have is the likes of Vino who lets say sample b comes back positive and he is banned for 2 years. This ban does not port over to the international cycling teams so he could go over there. What we may see is the tour de france and uci having one clean cycling league and another full of doping. Essentially the way body building has gone, you have the clean federation and the steriod federation.

Aside from Vino and I have to agree with teh Raz comment (im just waiting for a sample from him!) lets try to look at some positive steps coming out. Ok drugs are rampant in the sport but they are fighting harder than ever to get rid of them. This will not happen over night and we will have lots more of this before its clean. Also T-Mobile who in the wake of Jan have really taken the fight on drugs seriously. Regularly contracting independant testers out of competition and banning their own riders. These are all good steps.

It will take some time but we will get there.

In response to Mike simply stopping a sport because of some cheating isn't the way to go. In that case should we end all athletics, football, baseball, nfl, ice hockey, weight lifting etc... should we ban banking and comodoties market places because a lot of them take substances to keep up with the pace? Why not close down all night clubs because people in there take drugs in a social capacity.

dedon

vladimirtheass wrote:

This is such a kick in the teeth for cycling, while so many in the cycling world try to kick the doping problem ,that was and unfortunately still seems endemic in the sport, out of cycling for the good of it's image, the riders, sponsors and the fans (who at the moment are turning away by the second). Every day I log onto cycling websites in the hope that it isn't a doping scandal that's top of the news but today again I, like countless others, saw the gutt wrenching news of another doping scandal in the tour de France. McQuaid etc seem to be doing their best within the confines of the law to kick it out and this years peleton is probably the cleanest yet but the cheats still remain. McQuaid seems to be the first President to show leadership in the fight against doping as most of his predecessors seemed happy to sweep this "little" problem under the rug. No doubt that if McQuaid could, he'd simply f**k anyone caught doping out of cycling for good but apparently in this world you need to be given a second chance. BULL****, if you dope and get caught, you're a liar and a cheat with no place in sport.

Rasmussen should, like the Astana team, be asked to retire from the tour because this guys TT performance and not being where he should for 4 random tests just smack of a cheat. Vino and anyone found doping should be thrown out of the sport for good, a life time ban from competitive riding, coaching and team management. Mandatory lifetime bans for doping and massive fines are the only way to stop this repulsive culture.

Operation Puerto and the Floyd Landis farse seemed the lowest point for cycling but I'm not going to hold my breath. Hopefully the winner of this years Tour can be proved to be 100% clean, otherwise we're on death row.

I hope that the new generation of Contador, Schleck, Decker, Cavendish, and Roche etc. are clean; I want to believe they are because if they are not, they will be one of the last generations of professional cyclists. Our sport cannot keep absorbing these scandals without eventually destroying itself. We will only have to blame the greedy, unethical, immoral, lying, retched individuals within the sport itself to thank for its death if it happens.

Contador??? He was involved in Operation Puerto. Its amazing how many pople dont know this. He was banned from last years Tour. He should be banned for his involement. Disgraceful rider.

garo

I think people have silly expectations that cycling will be rid of drugs overnight. Pro cycling has been absolutely rife with drugs for the past decade or so and I would hazard a guess that at one point well over 50% of the peloton was using performance enhancement of one kind of the other. This number has dropped due to better controls and several high-profile catches since Festina and particularly since Puerto last year.

The problem is not going to go away overnight but it is getting better. The UCI still has it's suspicious about 6-7 top cyclists - termed "men in black" due to their habit of training in out of the way places in non-team clothing. Vino was one of them, Rasmussen is probably another. They will all be caught eventually but not overnight.

Toto Wolfcastle

I am gutted that Vinikourov has failed a doping test. He was my favourite this year, and while I didn't think he would win, I was rooting for him all the way.

Del2005

garo wrote:

I think people have silly expectations that cycling will be rid of drugs overnight. Pro cycling has been absolutely rife with drugs for the past decade or so and I would hazard a guess that at one point well over 50% of the peloton was using performance enhancement of one kind of the other. This number has dropped due to better controls and several high-profile catches since Festina and particularly since Puerto last year.

The problem is not going to go away overnight but it is getting better. The UCI still has it's suspicious about 6-7 top cyclists - termed "men in black" due to their habit of training in out of the way places in non-team clothing. Vino was one of them, Rasmussen is probably another. They will all be caught eventually but not overnight.

Unfortunately it been more then 10 years. Paul Kimmage's book ,Rough Ride, from 1990 has everyone and their mother on drugs then. It's been endemic in the sport and the ruling bodies are trying to clean it up. But as people are saying till they start handing out lifetime bans for a fail no one is too worried. Perhaps they should look to banning people from all sporting bodies if they fail a drug test, bit drastic and no idea how it would work in real live, but something has to be done.

dedon

It is about time Lance admitted that he took drugs. I dont know how he lives with the guilt. Sums it up when he supported Basso and Contador joined Discovery. He obviously sees nothing wrong with it unless ones get caught. It would prob be the best thing if Lance owns up and they start from scratch.

Wibbs

The only way this will stop is if the teams/sponsors and riders are hit in the pocket. Banning riders is a start, but at the end of the day the teams can sign up some other hungry hopeful who will be prepared to bend the rules. It's endemic in the sport at the pro level. It has been for decades. It has reached silly levels now though. The speeds they're climbing some of the hills is faster than they were running on the flat 20 years ago and it's not down to training or bike technology either. I remember reading one of the bike mags last year. It had a whole section on the drug issue. In another article one of the top British time triallers(Name escapes me. olympic medal type IIRC) He entered the tour and didn't place to any great degree in the time trials. Funny or what? Especially given the Brits expertise in that discipline. No comment was made. The distance nowadays between the pros and the amateurs is way bigger than can be readily explained.

Wibbs

Stark wrote:

Is it any worse that what's going on in athletics and other sports?

I would say so, mainly because of the money involved directly in pro cycling. "Amateur" athletics has serious issues too, but when compared to cycling no way. It's more like pro bodybuilding. It may have gone that way too with blind eyes avoiding the problem, but for some high profile cases and whistleblowers.

cavedave

The UCI still has it's suspicious about 6-7 top cyclists - termed "men in black" due to their habit of training in out of the way places in non-team clothing.

From what I have heard from journalists and even past winners seems to say there are two parralel races going on. The one for people everyone knows are doping and the one to be the best "clean" athlete. There seems to be shock that someone in the second category has failed.

The most successful attacks on drug use in sport have been due to police investigations. Festina, Balco, Italian winter olympic raids etc. This seems to indicate police investigation is the best way to stop drug use in sport.
Police investigation does not work to stop street drug use. There are a few areas of the country you cannot walk without being offered drugs.
So if policing is the best prevention and it is not very good you have to wonder if you can stop the problem.

Before saying that any dopers should be taken out shot it is worth considering the pressure these people are under. Walsh describes the predicament of the current pro. Put it this way say you injured an ankle two months ago and steroids were the only you could heal in time to compete in the Tour de France. Bills for your family are coming in and unless you race they might not get paid.

Macy

Wibbs wrote:

I would say so, mainly because of the money involved directly in pro cycling. "Amateur" athletics has serious issues too, but when compared to cycling no way. It's more like pro bodybuilding. It may have gone that way too with blind eyes avoiding the problem, but for some high profile cases and whistleblowers.

It's been a long time since Athletics wasn't professional. Do other sports even do blood tests, so how do we know they are "clean"? Would it aid footballers to be able to recover quicker between games to have these type of blood transfusions, would rugby players benefit from greater stamina by being able to play "the full 80" with epo? The drugs used in cycling would be of benefit to many sports, who simply choose not to test for them rather than admit a problem. Ever wondered how come so many top professional sportsmen are asthmatic? You have to wonder whether cycling would've been better off adopting the same attitude to testing as most other sports...

Wibbs

Certainly anabolic steroids would help in explosive sports like rugby where extra muscle bulk would help, though the subsequent weakening of tendons from their use may be counterproductive in high impact sports where such injuries are common. Cortisoids would also help fast healing in sports like football where injuries are common. Cortisoids are also used by cyclists basically to stay in the saddle. It's not the healthiest sport in the long term. The damage and stress to the body is high. Things like direct muscular vitamin injections are allowed in the sport. EPO and other blood enhancements really have their place in endurance sports more than anything.

jman0

I'd guess that doping is no worse in cycling than it is in other sports. Afterall there is a lot more money in things like football and F1.
It's just that participants in those professions are not subjected to the same rigorous testing regime that cycling employs.

dedon

jman0 wrote:

I'd guess that doping is no worse in cycling than it is in other sports. Afterall there is a lot more money in things like football and F1.
It's just that participants in those professions are not subjected to the same rigorous testing regime that cycling employs.

Sorry but I would have to disagree with you there. Cycling is the worst. Its a mess and always will be unless they sort it out and Armstrong tells all

Civilian_Target

Why is everyone so convinced Armstrong was on drugs?

dedon

Civilian_Target wrote:

Why is everyone so convinced Armstrong was on drugs?

Common sense. He was defo on the Cow blood thats for sure as there is no test for it and there still isnt. There is no test for most growth hormones so he was defo doing those. I heard he was a big man for the bllod transfusions as well cos they are so hard to detect. I used beleive he was clean but I lost faith in him recently after hsi supprt of Basso and Contador and indeed Landis.

Trojan

Civilian_Target wrote:

Why is everyone so convinced Armstrong was on drugs?

For me, TdF Stage 18, 2004.

Stage 18 (Annemasse to Lons-le-Saunier, July 23)

This stage was 166.5 km and the last in the mountains, it featured only one substantial climb, the cat-2 Col de la Faucille. With the time trial of Stage 19 looming this was a perfect chance for some lower placed riders to get away. The weather was hot and humid with a little rain at the start. Just 147 riders started the stage.

Some early drama was provided when Italian rider Filippo Simeoni, who has claimed that a doctor with ties to Armstrong had told him how to take performance enhancing drugs without being caught, tried to join an early (and, as it would turn out, successful) break. Armstrong himself chased him down - unusual for a team leader and yellow jersey, especially since Simeoni was no threat to Armstrong in the overall standings. Armstrong, taking upon himself the self-styled role of 'boss' or 'le patron' of the peloton in the tradition of others in the past such as Bernard Hinault, forced his will and stayed with the break until they got two minutes ahead, at which point the rest of the break asked Simeoni to leave, which he did, followed by Armstrong. Simeoni harshly criticized Armstrong in the press following the stage, while Armstrong maintained that he was protecting the interests of the peloton

crashoveroid

A second doping case has be announced but not the riders name yet was meant to be announced 15:00 cet

snipe

"Some early drama was provided when Italian rider Filippo Simeoni, who has claimed that a doctor with ties to Armstrong had told him how to take performance enhancing drugs without being caught, tried to join an early (and, as it would turn out, successful) break. Armstrong himself chased him down - unusual for a team leader and yellow jersey, especially since Simeoni was no threat to Armstrong in the overall standings. Armstrong, taking upon himself the self-styled role of 'boss' or 'le patron' of the peloton in the tradition of others in the past such as Bernard Hinault, forced his will and stayed with the break until they got two minutes ahead, at which point the rest of the break asked Simeoni to leave, which he did, followed by Armstrong. Simeoni harshly criticized Armstrong in the press following the stage, while Armstrong maintained that he was protecting the interests of the peloton"

Indeed, IIRC Armstrong made the finger-along-the-lips/ zipper gesture to Simeoni during this episode.

Trojan

He did. "Protecting the interests of the peloton" says it all for me though.

cyclopath2001

mike65 wrote:

I have no interest in cycling but in the interests of fair play and decency, professional cycling should be ended as of now. The regulators appear to have no firm way of stopping cheats and the cheats will do pretty much anything to succeed. Not a happy mix.Mike.

It's clear you've no interest in cycling or you would not make such a sweeping statement. Following your logic, why not ban all sports where there is cheating or corruption? Let's close all the pubs and night clubs too.

Professional cycling is big business, many people making an honest living through it, millions of people love it blindly, governments throw money at it because of the tourism benefits. Like all sports, it brings people together and encourages healthy exercise.

It needs to be healed, not shot.

Wibbs

cyclopath2001 wrote:

It's clear you've no interest in cycling or you would not make such a sweeping statement.

Well I've an interest in cycling and while mike65 makes a sweeping statement, all the talk of the governing bodies and these cyclists think they can still get away with it. What does that tell you?

Following your logic, why not ban all sports where there is cheating or corruption?

No but a different tack needs to be taken.

Let's close all the pubs and night clubs too.

Silly argument TBH.

Professional cycling is big business,

That's the biggy. The cheats, the teams who cheat and all connected with cheating need to be hit and hit hard in the pocket. Start with the teams.

millions of people love it blindly,

And the numbers are dropping with every scandal. BNot so blindly it seems.

governments throw money at it because of the tourism benefits.

Only the tours would have that impact. Even there attendance is down on the roads compared to the past.

Like all sports, it brings people together and encourages healthy exercise.

Healthy? Not if you want to be a pro it seems. At least a semi competitive one. How many of them have died in dubious health circumstances in the last ten years? Great advertisment for a healthy life I must say. If I had a mate who wanted to pursue it as a pro I would be very very dubious of supporting him or her in the current climate.

It needs to be healed, not shot.

Yes, but hiding ones head in the sand profits no one and there's a hell of a lot of heads buried in the sand these days on this issue.

Wibbs

A good indication are the threads on here and discussion in the broader world. Who won the stage is less and less important than who got caught for being proud to be a blood donor and receiver months later. That's the slippery slope. It has descended into farce.

cyclopath2001

Wibbs wrote:

these cyclists think they can still get away with it. What does that tell you?

That the job is not complete.

Even there attendance is down on the roads compared to the past.

Do you have figures? The sport still has millions of followers. What does that tell you?

Healthy? Not if you want to be a pro it seems. At least a semi competitive one. How many of them have died in dubious health circumstances in the last ten years?

Not as many as the millions that have have benefitted. We should not throw that away.

I don't deny the negatives, but too many people are overlooking the many positive aspects of professional cycling. Calling for it to be stopped is just as absurd as calling for all pubs to be closed because of drunkenness and violence associated with them.

I'm addressing Mike65's ignorant proposal.

What would you do different to the UCI's current policy?

Wibbs

Cyclopath2001 wrote:

That the job is not complete.

Not even started in the right direction.

Do you have figures? The sport still has millions of followers. What does that tell you?

So did a lot of now minority sports in the past. The fact is 5 major European networks refused to air the race this year. Viewing figures are down and will continue in freefall if this isn't nipped in the bud.

I don't deny the negatives, but too many people are overlooking the many positive aspects of professional cycling.

Few enough of those accepted benefits are springing to mind lately

What would you do different to the UCI's current policy?

Lots
Re read my post. Hit the teams and everyone who profits from this in the pocket. Huge fines, life bannings and consistently applied drug checks. As it is the drug tests are largely confined to the tours with a few exceptions. This current idiot who got pulled yesterday avoided drug checks before. What about the current leader, he's avoided a load yet he's still allowed to race and wear that jersey. That does not happen in any other sport I can think of. The UCI are clearly toothless in too many ways. As I said a farce.

cyclopath2001

Wibbs wrote:

As I said a farce.

I think you're exaggerating and sensationalising the negatives and grossly ignoring the huge positive benefits of sport. You're also denigrating what is being done.

A great deal of testing is done. Hundreds of tests just on the TDF. So far, all but two were negative. Even on local events here in Ireland testing is done. The cost is a heavy burden on organisers. Even amateurs are subjected to out-of competition testing. I was at an obscure 2nd-cat event in Northern Ireland this year and UK Sports Council testers (not cycling people) showed up for a random spot-check.

Due process and presumption of innocence are part of society, respect for these ideals should not be seen as an unwillingness to act. Tests can be wrong, mistakes can be made. Some positives can have innocent explanations. The whole process will lose credibility if it's not executed carefully.

Testing is just one way. The supply chain needs to the tackled too.

Trojan

In that vein, I do agree with Lance Armstrong and others when they talk about the over-aggressiveness of testers, and with people like Tyler who talks about the lack of oversight and lab irregularities in drug testing.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Wibbs

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I think you're exaggerating and sensationalising the negatives and grossly ignoring the huge positive benefits of sport. You're also denigrating what is being done.

Really, are you actually that naive? Is that possible? The biggest event in the calendar of the sport and how many high profile riders have been dropped because of drugs? Including the current yellow jersey FFS. The so called sportsmen are doing the denigrating not me. They appear to need little help on bringing the sport into disrepute.

Due process and presumption of innocence are part of society, respect for these ideals should not be seen as an unwillingness to act. Tests can be wrong, mistakes can be made. Some positives can have innocent explanations. The whole process will lose credibility if it's not executed carefully.

Lofty ideals certainly. Result in the face of cynical exploitation of the money to be made out of this? Sand insert head.

Testing is just one way. The supply chain needs to the tackled too.

No, the financial reasons for the abuse, the background to such abuse needs to be tackled. Supply chain is like any illicit drug, it's like the head of the hydra, cut one off and another will take it's place if you don't remove the source for the need to drug up. This attitude is why the UCI is fúcking up and it's the reason why with every year the sport descends into farce.

Trippie

This might put me in a position for a flaming but bear with me.

I have followed pro cycling for a while now and to me it is one of the toughest sports out there if not the toughest and i have yet to meet anyone surprised by landis' positive test last year after seeing the two stages in subsequent days and the difference in performance.As a previous poster mentioned some see two different races one for the performance boosters and one for the clean riders.

So what I am saying would it be possible to permit certain levels of performance techniques and the rider would have to declare which option they are "on" before the start of the stage but depending on the amount of blood they have received or the seriousness of the technique they would receive a percentage time penalty to their finish time and eventually overall the time penalties would add up and the riders could be left with a decision befroe the start of each stage and the ones using would have to push themselves even harder than before in order to negate the negative time penalties

However if anyone is found to have gone over these permitted levels then a much more serious ban would be implemented than the current two year one.


[EDIT] this may not be that coherent as im not exactly sure how to convey what im getting at.

cyclopath2001

Wibbs wrote:

doing the denigrating not me.

Yes, the riders bring the sport into disrepute, but you've answered a different point to the one I made. Cheats are being kicked out, riders are being penalised, tests are being made and you denigrate these actions by saying nothing is being done. You tried to mislead readers here by saying that testing only occurred 'in the tours with a few exceptions' when this is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happens.

The reason why we have the current exposures of cheats is because something is being done.

Lofty ideals certainly. Result in the face of cynical exploitation of the money to be made out of this? Sand insert head.

What are you saying? Abolish fairness? Punish people without proper evidence? With Rasmussen, until now, there was not sufficient evidence of wrongdoing until now. Now he's been kicked out by his team. That seems reasonable. The last thing we need are lots of court cases because of shaky evidence.

No, the financial reasons for the abuse, the background to such abuse needs to be tackled.

Could you clarify what are you saying? Abolish all professional sport?

The current scandals certainly wound the sport but its better that these happen in the public eye and based on proper evidence than swept under the carpet or dealt with in secret. That way the message gets out to the riders and the public can see that the sport is confident enough in its core strengths and huge public support to be able to take the damage inflicted by the embarrassments that we're now having.

Wibbs

Yea I can see where you're going with that. There's a part of me that would throw in the towel at this stage. Throw away the rule book and if the teams want to field drug fueled mutants that burn out and die in full view of the cameras I say go for it. The gladitorial aspect appeals. Drug fueled mutants racing and dieing makes for great TV. The problem is it would be even harder to implement than a blanket ban. Also the naive would be hopping up and down screaming "will someone think of the children" with regard to the drugs themselves.

The only way you can stop this? Make the penalties higher than the benefits. It's that simple. The reverse is true at the moment. If the UCI can't see that then pro cycling as it is today is doomed and rightfully so.

Wibbs

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Yes, the riders bring the sport into disrepute, but you've answered a different point to the one I made. Cheats are being kicked out, riders are being penalised, tests are being made and you denigrate these actions by saying nothing is being done.

Something is being done, but if the top riders in the biggest event, with the biggest scrutiny in the cycling calendar are doping then something is seriously wrong if they even dream they cn get away with it.

You tried to mislead readers here by saying that testing only occurred 'in the tours' when this is not true.

The majority of in season testing of the top riders occurs on the tours. fact.

The reason why we have the current exposures of cheats is because something is being done.

You are really missing the point. I bet your one of those people who sees a major Garda drug bust and thinks it actually makes a big difference.

What are you saying? Abolish fairness?

Calm down. Emotive much? "Abolish fairness" Sheesh. Though "abolish fairness" are interesting words to use in connection with pro cycling at the moment.

With Rasmussen, until now, there was not sufficient evidence of wrongdoing until now. Now he's been kicked out by his team. That seems reasonable.

I really can't believe you're this naive. How many tests did he miss? Are you telling me his team, his team manager, his doctor etc weren't aware of that? He misses those tests, yet he and his team and his whole support structure feels he might get away with racing at the front of the peloton of the biggest cycle race on earth? If the media hadn't put the spotlight on the nosferatu headed freak he'd still be in the yellow jersey. Fact.

Could you clarify what are you saying? Abolish all professional sport?

Can you only see two sides, black and white? No i didn't say "Abolish all professional sport".:rolleyes:

The current scandals certainly wound the sport but its better that these happen in the public eye and based on proper evidence than swept under the carpet or dealt with in secret. That way the message gets out to the riders and the public can see that the sport is confident enough in its core strengths and huge public support to be able to take the damage inflicted by the embarrassments that we're now having.

You are that naive. Look at the surveys, look at the viewing figures, look at the print medias reporting of the sport, even look at a bikey forum like this. The beady eye is on the sport for all the wrong reasons. If you can't see that the pro sport is facing an uncertain future then you better jump in with mcquaid and others playing loudly and out of tune in the band on the Titanic.

Again it's this simple, Make the penalties higher than the benefits.

Civilian_Target

I'm all for the mutant cyclists, tbh

cycleoin

Aren't you all missing the point? I think what has happened this week in the Tour is FANTASTIC. Ras's team kicking him out before a test was even returned! 5 French teams and 2 german teams refusing to start the tour on time yesterday! Astana pullinghteir whole team out of the tour, as did cofidis and rabobank.

What we are witnessing is a turning point for cycling. ZERO tolerance. If this was ten years ago (we all remember the taint Festina put on the tour when it came to Ireland) there would be appeals, denials and a lot of hissy fits.

Now we are seeing an allegation is enough to have a whole team pull out. This is worth major money to the teams and it si in their interest to keep their title sponsors on board. If the sponsors are associated with drugged up athleates they will not continue funding a team.

I am delighted to see so many teams pull out because of single riders. It signals a new dawn for cycling.

dedon

I think it is great aswell. A change is really happening. Delighted to see Ras gone. He was never that good a rider untill this year and considering that he missed most of last autumn due to a serious injury. He is so dirty but he shouldn;t have been racing at all.

The thing is Contador is not clean either and should'nt be allowed ride due to operation puerto.

All we need now is for Lance to admit he doped. But he is too much of a coward and an asshole to ever do that.

Pherekydes

cycleoin wrote:

Now we are seeing an allegation is enough to have a whole team pull out.

Well, all you have to do is make an allegation and your rivals are gone.

Maybe we could extend it to criminal law.

Oh, wait, it's already been done, back in the good old days of Hitler and Stalin.

cycleoin

Slow coach wrote:

Well, all you have to do is make an allegation and your rivals are gone.

Maybe we could extend it to criminal law.

Oh, wait, it's already been done, back in the good old days of Hitler and Stalin.

Obviously frivlous allegations are not to be taken lightly. But where there is cause for the allegation such as in Ras's "Iwas in MExico but really in Italy with Dr Ferrari" case there ought to be immediate and swift action, such as a suspension without pay pending out come of investigation.

Also - with regard to the criminal law, sometimes allegations are enough, such as being a member of an illegal organisation, posessing certain scheduled articles etc where the burden of proff shifts to the accused. Applying this to cycling, if a cyclist is found with drugs, or can not account for his movements when questioned by the UCI there should certainly be heavy sanctions.

Well done UCI and President Pat McQuaid is what I say!

Wibbs

cycleoin wrote:

Well done UCI and President Pat McQuaid is what I say!

In fairness the UCI and McQuaid had sod all to do with it. What really did it was the media attention and the sponsors getting itchy feet over possible very public drug scandals. It was going to hit them in the pocket. The UCI and McQuaid make interesting noises, but the money going south is what will likely change things more than nearly anything else.

cycleoin

I whole heartedly agree - as I said in my original post - teams such as AG2R who took a hit of circa €1million are willing to expel the filth (who are caught) from their teams. Money speaks louder than all the words in the world.

With regard to Pat McQuaid and the UCI I was referring to the charter they put in place for the witholding of riders wages in the event of doping.

cyclopath2001

It's also worth noting that prizemoney is not paid out until some months after an event, after the results of dope tests are known.

Now, it's not clear what the rules of the TDF are in the event of a forced 'voluntary' withdrawal, but a disqualification results in all prizemoney won in an event by a rider being forfeit.

Hermy

"...a disqualification results in all prizemoney won in an event by a rider being forfeit."
Are time and point bonuses for the various jerseys redistributed if a rider is disqualified?

cyclopath2001

I think it's theoretically possible for an event's preceding stage classifications to be recalculated as if the disqualified rider had never ridden, but I've never heard of it happening. It may be discretionary for the race jury to decide the full impact in a given situation. It would be impossible to erase the effect of a rider from an event in every way, due to the way tactics work.

In the current scenario, Rasmussen was not disqualified. He was sacked by his team and could no longer take part. He did not test positive, but has clearly lost the trust of his employers.

In the case of the non-positive riders sent home, they have not been disqualified either, but they had agreed when entering the event that they'd have to go home if any team member tested positive.

Before a test for EPO was successfully developed, riders with high haemocrit levels were withdrawn 'on health grounds', but technically had not been found guilty of any wrong-doing.

It's not always possible to prove wrong-doing, so, the UCI has come up with a few second-line tactics such as these.

Pherekydes

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I think it's theoretically possible for an event's preceding stage classifications to be recalculated as if the disqualified rider had never ridden, but I've never heard of it happening. It may be discretionary for the race jury to decide the full impact in a given situation. It would be impossible to erase the effect of a rider from an event in every way, due to the way tactics work.

I'd be fairly miffed if I were Cancellara or McEwen, because both of these, amongst others, were eliminated for being outside the time limit. Without the dopers the stages would surely have been slower.