Fighting apartment management company over right to own dish

EricM

Over last few days I bought a digiglobe and sky hd, overall spent over 800 euro on satellite equipment and tonight i get a threatening letter (a copy of the rules with a small threat about contacting my landlord if i dont remove it) it was left under my door, probably left there by some other resident who didnt have the balls to knock on my door.

Now the european law says I have a right to use a satellite dish, and that rules that prohibit dishes are unacceptable.
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/01/913&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Has anyone ever tried to defend their right to own a dish under this law in ireland?

The dish in question is a digiglobe which sits on my balcony, its not attached or bolted down, so i dont need planning permission.

What are my chances?

Mossy Monk

EricM wrote:

What are my chances?

Favourable if European Law is on your side.

Prenderb

It sits on your balcony, and people still complain about it? What is this country coming to....

thos

Do you own the apartment, or are you renting ?

It looks like the letter came from a resident as opposed to management company ?

mikemac

To be fair, seeing large dishes all over apartment blocks does look terrible but if it's on your balcony, I see no problem.

Regarding the rules, did you sign something when moved in like an agreement not to put a dish outside?

mjsmyth

Morning,

Like micmclo, I too think that large dishes on apartment blocks look terrible just purely for aesthethic reasons. However, I don't think that the small Sky dish, if installed correctly looks that bad at all. I think the problem arises when one flat has an 80cm white dish, the next has a 60cm grey dish and then the other has a standard Sky dish.. It just looks messy. If they were all uniform in size and colour, I think they would look fine.. Thats not going to happen though.

When you signed your lease, did it spcifically say that you could not attach a satellite dish? How exactly is it worded? My thinking is that if it specifically says Dish, well then the Globe is not a dish, its a, well its a Globe! It just happens to contain a dish in its internals. Mind you, you are screwed if it says satellite receiving equipment.

The other point to take note of is do you really want to p*ss your landlord off? When you rented the apartment, did you talk about satellite tv? If so, what was his attitude?

Last, but not least, type up a letter. Copy it and place a copy in each persons mailbox detailing the rules and how (only if it mentions attaching a dish), you are not breaking them because:

a) It is not a dish, but a Globe which can receive satellite recpetion and also a beautiful, but large, balcony light.

b) Mention that it is free standing and not attached to any part of the building.

I would also include photographs from street level to show it cannot be seen and so on and so forth. I would include a print out and a link to that EU Press release. I don't know how sound it is or the legal footings, but it looks good.

Finally I would ask that the person who issued the original letter please reply to the points in person as you would like to talk them through on a one to one basis.

Thats what I would do.....

mj

MaxFlower

How did they know this was a satellite dish. Have you been telling people about this. It looks like a light!
TBH I didn't know you could get something like this. Its brilliant. If only I knew about these 2 years ago when I agonised about putting a dish on my house. In the end I put it up but I'm still not a fan.

wil

Certain national practices such as technical, administrative, architectural or fiscal obstacles are incompatible with the principle of the free movement of goods and services to which end-users of satellite dishes are entitled.
[ COM(2001) 351 ]

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/policy/ecomm/doc/info_centre/communic_reports/satellite_dish/antenna_en.pdf

I suggest you fight fire with water.*
Print out a copy of the 27 page document above and if possible accompany it with a solicitors letter threatening legal action to the highest level (ie the EU courts) if there is any attempt to deny you your rights under Freedom of Goods and Services.
Post this under the door of whoever you suspect delivered your warning note.
If it did come to it from what is written here there is little doublt with a decent solicitor and reasonably prepared case you would win.
You are covered in almost every way as you did go out of your way to purchase a much more expensive dish in order to avoid any clash with any planning permission regulations and your dish is freestanding, not causing damage to any structure. Under this Commission opinion you are not even expected to go this far in order to receive satellite transmissions. Even signed management company rules and planning permission regulations would appear to be in direct contravention of your rights except in exceptional circumstances
If you did eventually go to court it would for once and for all draw a line under this regular question.
(* recommendation and personal interpretation by person with no connection to the legal profession)

copacetic

keithers911 wrote:

How did they know this was a satellite dish. Have you been telling people about this. It looks like a light!
TBH I didn't know you could get something like this. Its brilliant. If only I knew about these 2 years ago when I agonised about putting a dish on my house. In the end I put it up but I'm still not a fan.

have to disagree with this, they look a lot better than normal dishes but are massive, there is no way anyone would put a 'light' that size on a balcony. It is obvious they are sat rxers imo.

I've been looking at the digicube as a nicer solution but it is really big too and where I would put it to be out of sight would mean my reception would be rotten if people stand on the balcony! I'm in two minds, plenty of people in my development have put up sat dishes even though it is specifically not allowed in the lease agreements and they look like crap. I'm not sure I want to be one of these people (whatever about the semantics of whether it is a 'dish' or no).

I'll keep looking for a better, really discreet solution.

wil

If you mean by discrete - smaller then perhaps if you are in an area of good signal strength a microdish or a flat panel such as discussed previously
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055119749

On the other hand as having already taken reasonable action and spent considerable money why should he be denied his riights. Maybe some hanging baskets and plant pots might help if the aesthetics are still a problem for you.
To make a point perhaps he could get one of these :eek:
http://www.redferret.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/gatr.jpg

Ulsterman 1690

it was left under my door, probably left there by some other resident who didnt have the balls to knock on my door.

anonymous letters are usually best ignored

is_that_so

I am of the opinion that people should not do as they wish in apartment blocks and in our own block we have set rules as to where people can put dishes, which work perfectly well.

The difficulty here is that in signing a contract you agree to be bound by certain rules. Those rules may not preclude the use of dishes but may forbid what you want to do, in the same way that some blocks will not allow people to hang their washing out.

If your own landlord has no objection to the rules then you may find it difficult to go against it. It is your landlord's property and not yours. Tenant rights in Ireland are not as developed as in others parts of Europe. There are also council restrictions in some parts of the country which forbid putting dishes on the front of buildings.

uberwolf

your problem is like this. The management company own the balcony and the exterior walls, and all common areas. So they are perfectly entitled to dictate how these are utilised.

It would be like attaching your dish to your neighbours house. You just can't do it, because it's not your property.

Owen

I can't see the difference between using a Globe on the balcony, and putting a potted plant out there.

uberwolf

ned78 wrote:

I can't see the difference between using a Globe on the balcony, and putting a potted plant out there.

that's all well and good, but it's the management companies prerogative.

From their perspective it's much easier to police a straight up no dish policy, than it is a no dish over a certain size policy.

For the OP is there any way to bring the dish in doors?

Ulsterman 1690

The dish is unlikely to work indoors. Satellite signals wont travel through walls (even windows will attenuate the signals by some degree depending on the purity and thickness of the glass)

Incidentally the OP may well have signed a contract with his landlord but unless there was a clause in the lease against satellite antennas it is going to be pretty difficult for the management company to take action against a tenant (and thats leaving aside the whole question of European law)

ro2

Can't understand why more management companies don't provide access to a communal dish, especially if they don't want people having them on their balconies. This lark of builders letting only one provider into an apartment block and getting a payoff should be banned.

altered121

alot depends on local council laws as well as management companies
eg Galway city has very tight regs on dishes.
also planning permission laws eg dishes forward on building etc.
most management companies contract one firm to provide FTA or ntl or chorus or another variation.

copacetic

ro2 wrote:

Can't understand why more management companies don't provide access to a communal dish, especially if they don't want people having them on their balconies. This lark of builders letting only one provider into an apartment block and getting a payoff should be banned.

well i have this and it is what I am trying to get away from, I'm paying a fee to the provider to allow me access the dish. It also was only wired one feed to each apt so I can't get sky plus.

It is a pretty crappy solution to be honest. Although I wouldn't expect a builder to allow loads of different companies prewire the apts either.

Hence I would like my own dish, but it clearly isn't allowed and I knew this when I bought the apt. Just because other people ignore the rules and make the place look crappy I'm not in any rush to. I have been looking at some of the other 'flat' dishes and the 'digicube' which looks like a better solution than the globe from the same people.

EricM

i rent the apartment, i am in dublin, dish wont work inside through the window, will work if i leave the balcony door open but im not gonna sit inside in the winter with my door open.

i have a hdtv and i want sky because of sky hd and sky plus, which ntl doesnt offer either.

i had specifically asked about dish before agreeing to rent, i was told (by the rental agent remax) the landlord had no problem with me putting up a dish.

It was only after i signed the rental agreement that the management company rules said i could not put up a dish.

A guy around the corner has a dish up, i dont know if they threatened him too, or maybe he owns the apt and they cant do anything, but its been up there for a while.

My digiglobe is in the corner of the balcony, behind two large plants, its difficult to even see it.

Ulsterman 1690

i had specifically asked about dish before agreeing to rent, i was told (by the rental agent remax) the landlord had no problem with me putting up a dish.

It was only after i signed the rental agreement that the management company rules said i could not put up a dish.

in that case sounds like they can do damn all and in fact both you and the managment company might even have a case against the agent.

But like I say anonymous letters should be ignored

mikemac

Tbh, if your neighbours was a real man (or women), they'd come and have a chat with you about this issue. If they can't put their name on the letter then they're not prepared to stand over it.

Unless, they think you're a rough thug who'd sooner beat them than discuss the problem:p

If you had some enormous dish that could be seen streets away and that looked terrible I'd have no sympathy for you but it seems you're being reasonable so stand up for yourself here.

Besprechen

EricM wrote:

It was only after i signed the rental agreement that the management company rules said i could not put up a dish.

A guy around the corner has a dish up, i dont know if they threatened him too, or maybe he owns the apt and they cant do anything, but its been up there for a while.

if the guy round the corner from you is in the same block of flats and owns his apartment, wouldnt he still be subject to the rules of the management company, might be worth having a word with him?

Ulsterman 1690

TBH I reckon a lot of this anti dish nonsense is a hangover from the days when satellite TV was a rich mans toy and therfore despised out of ignorance and envy.

Theres a bit of it with mobile phones as well

wil

and a very big dash of busybodiness. :mad:
If dish can barely be seen from below they must have gone out of their way to identify it. I wouldnt know what a digiglobe was in plain view, so how did they behind plants. Perhaps their motive is more sinister than apartment rules:(

cast_iron

uberwolf wrote:

your problem is like this. The management company own the balcony and the exterior walls, and all common areas. So they are perfectly entitled to dictate how these are utilised.

It would be like attaching your dish to your neighbours house. You just can't do it, because it's not your property.

So, if I put a table and chair out on my balcony, it's like putting them in my neighbours house? I don't think so.

How can the management company own apartment's balconies? That sounds farcical to me.

smcelhinney

uberwolf wrote:

your problem is like this. The management company own the balcony and the exterior walls, and all common areas. So they are perfectly entitled to dictate how these are utilised.

It would be like attaching your dish to your neighbours house. You just can't do it, because it's not your property.

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Do you rent or own? I've been renting for 12 years and never heard this before in my life. In fact, balcony space is often (more times than not) factored into square footage when valueing (sp) a property.

OP, you need to get the line of communication between you and the management company completely clear. If your neighbour, who has the dish erected already, does in fact own his house, and you have the permission of the landlord, then it is effectively as if the landlord is erecting the dish himself.

Ergo, landlords house, landlords dish (owned by you). Its amazing the things that management companies put in their contracts these days. Im actually considering talking to one about the condition they put in about preventing me from drying clothes on my balcony. Thats a civil liberty, and Im an energy conscious person. Who do they think they are?

Anyhow, best of luck, let me know how it goes.

axer

smcelhinney wrote:

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Do you rent or own? I've been renting for 12 years and never heard this before in my life. In fact, balcony space is often (more times than not) factored into square footage when valueing (sp) a property.

It was discussed in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055072609
Aparently it can be seen as being part of the external structure of the apartment block.

It is wise advice to ignore anonymous letters.

jd

smcelhinney wrote:

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Do you rent or own? I've been renting for 12 years and never heard this before in my life. In fact, balcony space is often (more times than not) factored into square footage when valueing (sp) a property.

OP, you need to get the line of communication between you and the management company completely clear. If your neighbour, who has the dish erected already, does in fact own his house, and you have the permission of the landlord, then it is effectively as if the landlord is erecting the dish himself.

Ergo, landlords house, landlords dish (owned by you). Its amazing the things that management companies put in their contracts these days. Im actually considering talking to one about the condition they put in about preventing me from drying clothes on my balcony. Thats a civil liberty, and Im an energy conscious person. Who do they think they are?

Anyhow, best of luck, let me know how it goes.

I think we are talking about apartments here.
In general-
Apartment owners/dwellers do not own/rent the external fixtures (including the external walls), grounds and common arteas- these are owned by the management company. Also the leasehold terms generally state that the owner/occupier has a licence to use the balcony- not that they own it. So the management company is within its rights to ask for something to be removed from its property.

BTW all the owners are normally a member of the management company- the management company then appoints an agent to act on its behalf.

Also from that link re European Law
Concerns of an architectural and town-planning nature, which are often cited in this context, can be met by solutions which make it possible, where necessary and technically feasible, to minimise the visual and aesthetic impact of satellite dishes without impairing quality of reception, under reasonable conditions and at reasonable cost


And seeing as you mentioned it, washing lines on balconies makes the development look terrible.

copacetic

smcelhinney wrote:

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Do you rent or own? I've been renting for 12 years and never heard this before in my life. In fact, balcony space is often (more times than not) factored into square footage when valueing (sp) a property.

maybe it is the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard, but apparently shows how little you know.

Sir Oxman

EricM wrote:

i rent the apartment, i am in dublin, dish wont work inside through the window, will work if i leave the balcony door open but im not gonna sit inside in the winter with my door open.

i have a hdtv and i want sky because of sky hd and sky plus, which ntl doesnt offer either.

i had specifically asked about dish before agreeing to rent, i was told (by the rental agent remax) the landlord had no problem with me putting up a dish.

It was only after i signed the rental agreement that the management company rules said i could not put up a dish.

A guy around the corner has a dish up, i dont know if they threatened him too, or maybe he owns the apt and they cant do anything, but its been up there for a while.

My digiglobe is in the corner of the balcony, behind two large plants, its difficult to even see it.

I put a dish up on my rented apt almost 2.5 yrs ago with agents and landlords express permission.

then a year later got a letter from Planning dept saying I had to take it down.

I discussed it with them, explained everything and in the end had no chice but to remove it.

I then thought, feck them and spent a day or two positioning the dish freestanding on my balcony.
From the main road, you would have to have the sight of Superman to see it plus it's not affixed to the outside of the aprtment.

Haven't heard a word from mgmt company (who only put up their ridiculous no sat dishes notice 6 months after I moved in) and even if I did I'd tell em to buzz off.

Since taking down my dish and complying with Planning Laws, about twenty other apts have put up affixed dishes and they are all still there (some over a year up)

I have no problem with them but understand some people may be offended by the sight of them.

Simple thing - mgmt companies/builders should have no right whatsoever to limit owners/tenants as to what TV service they can use - in nearly all cases it is a money grabbing exercise ensuring a captive market for the poor sods who have to live in these blocks.
Sky are very willing to install communal dishes which would solve everyones problems with this stupid, stupid situation. It would at the very least give tenants/owners a choice.

To the OP: How is the reception on your digiglobe and as it's freestanding do you have any problems with it 'falling over'?;)