positive discrimination

maryjane1

would you send your child to a preschool that "positvely discriminates" i.e. reserves priority places for ethnic minorities. which is compleyely above board and legal.

in my eyes a form of racism. why should race be a factor in obtaining a place in anything nonetheless pre school? surely this is discriminating against anyone who is not of an ethnic minority based on their ethnicity which is illegal isnt it? what are your opinions?

Nevyn

There is the early start program that runs in schools in disadvantaged areas but those places are for children with issues and not the standard child.

Is that what you mean ?

maryjane1

thats not what i mean. im talking about a local pre school which has restructured their admissions policy. priority is given in the following order: "finacially disadvantaged, ethnic minority and neither of the above"

luckat

If I felt as you do (which I don't), then no, I wouldn't send a child there.

Nevyn

IF you are not not happy about how a privately run company is slecting it's customers then you should contact the equity commision to see if they fall under thier remit.

G&T

If the playschool is local then Im assuming the children from it will go to the local primary school.
So your child is going to have these "group's" in his class anyway.

I would have no problem sending my child there,
I would rather a child grow up in an environment that mirror's the real world.

maryjane1

Thaedydal wrote:

IF you are not not happy about how a privately run company is slecting it's customers then you should contact the equity commision to see if they fall under thier remit.

it isnt privately run its funded and as i said it is legal.

maryjane1

but do you think that it is a good thing to discrimate between children because of their race. we are supposed to have laws to protect against this yet it is still legal

silja

I wouldn't send my child to such a school, no (husband and I are both white, but not born in Ireland- does that make us one of the minorities?). I think discrimination is wrong, whether it is based on sex, race, or anything else. Kids should get into a school based on where they live, if it is a public school.

That being said, we are likely not going to send our children to public school anyway, we plan to homeschool.

maniac101

maryjane1 wrote:

but do you think that it is a good thing to discrimate between children because of their race. we are supposed to have laws to protect against this yet it is still legal

In principle I'm in favour of the concept of ensuring that there's a racial balance in the classroom that reflects the diversity in society in general. It helps avoid the situation where large numbers of non-english-speaking children are concentrated in a few schools, thus holding back the education of all attending that school. I probably wouldn't use the word "discrimination" though. It implies that Irish children are discriminated against while at school, which of course isn't the case.

Nevyn

maryjane1 wrote:

it isnt privately run its funded and as i said it is legal.

Funded by whom ?
Is it a private run business who gets grants and occasional funding ?
Is it a ngo, like barandos ?
Is it a run in conjuntion with the health board ?
or is it an early start program with in a school ?

Honestly I understand the need for children who do not have english as one of their primary languages to have preschool, esp those who are of a very different culture and need to adjust.

Better that they do it in preschool then when they start national school.

silja this is not school but kindergarden/prechool that maryjane1 is refering to but she has yet to explain what type.

Ayla

Discrimination, either "positively" or otherwise is just that...discrimination. Ranking (or placing priority with) children based on something they have no control over (ie: cultural background) is wrong in my opinion.

I agree that we need to create a balanced and equal environment, however by selecting some over others based on cultural background you're automatically discriminating. This time the discrimination is just against the majority.

This type of selection process is called "Affirmative Action" in the states, and I've seen first-hand how it can ultimately work against the theory. The problem comes when you give "priority" places or "first" opportunity to the minorities...the places/opportunities should be equal, not better, then those offered to everyone else.

maryjane1

Thaedydal wrote:

Funded by whom ?
Is it a private run business who gets grants and occasional funding ?
Is it a ngo, like barandos ?
Is it a run in conjuntion with the health board ?
or is it an early start program with in a school ?

Honestly I understand the need for children who do not have english as one of their primary languages to have preschool, esp those who are of a very different culture and need to adjust.

Better that they do it in preschool then when they start national school.

silja this is not school but kindergarden/prechool that maryjane1 is refering to but she has yet to explain what type.

it is a community playschool and as such is run solely on funding and the small fee payable. it is funded by pobal. it is not attched to a primary school.

what is the need to explain all this? does any of this make a difference betwwen being discriminatory or not?

maryjane1

Ayla wrote:

Discrimination, either "positively" or otherwise is just that...discrimination. Ranking (or placing priority with) children based on something they have no control over (ie: cultural background) is wrong in my opinion.

I agree that we need to create a balanced and equal environment, however by selecting some over others based on cultural background you're automatically discriminating. This time the discrimination is just against the majority.

This type of selection process is called "Affirmative Action" in the states, and I've seen first-hand how it can ultimately work against the theory. The problem comes when you give "priority" places or "first" opportunity to the minorities...the places/opportunities should be equal, not better, then those offered to everyone else.

ive been reading up on it and apparently the supreme court in the states has ruled that it cannot be based on race in the last year or two (not exactly sure). but im open to correction on this. its also illegal in the uk as its against their anto racism laws.

dame

Pre-school children know nothing about race. They may notice that some kids are blondes, some are red-heads, some have darker colouring, but it's only in the same way they'd notice that some are boys, some are girls or some have pigtails. It doesn't matter to them. What might affect the children is hearing or seeing their parents making distinctions or complaining about ethnic minorities.

Are you concerned with this because your child was denied a place or because they do attend and you think there are too many children there who are financially disadvantaged or from an ethnic minority?

maryjane1

dame wrote:

Are you concerned with this because your child was denied a place or because they do attend and you think there are too many children there who are financially disadvantaged or from an ethnic minority?

my son has not been denied a place he is too young yet his name is on the waiting list for when he is older. i dont know what race anyone in the playgroup is at present as the race of the children in it is irrelevant to me as is how much money they have. why should that matter? as for your ridiculous comment about being concerned because they do attend i wont even credit that with an answer.

as i have already stated for people who do not understand: the thing that bothers me is that places for this preschool are given out in a discriminatory way. if any child is financially disadvantaged they are prioritsed anyway regardless of their ethnicity. these are two year olds why should their race be a factor in anything that they do, whether they are black, white or green with orange spots!!!!!!!

Shelli

maniac101 wrote:

I probably wouldn't use the word "discrimination" though. It implies that Irish children are discriminated against while at school, which of course isn't the case.

It's exactly what it is, if Irish children are not being allowed into this pre-school because they are Irish and not a "minority" then they are being discriminated against for being Irish.

I believe everyone should be treated equally, in a publicly funded school this is based on location, in a private it should be in a first come first served basis. Reserving places for racial minorities is racism, end of story.

Nevyn

I dont think it is racism I think it is based on the needs of the children in the community.

The Corinthian

Thaedydal wrote:

I dont think it is racism I think it is based on the needs of the children in the community.

Well if you discriminate on the basis of race then it is racism, by definition, regardless of whether the discrimination is positive or negative.

Would I send my child to such a school? TBH, 'financially disadvantaged' would probably bother me more than 'ethnic minorities' as they are more likely to bring social baggage with them that would, by association, influence my child.

As for ethnic minorities, I suppose it would depend upon the minority and the culture they come from, so were they Asian children they would more likely come from a background that would encourage academic achievement, so I'd actually favour this, while gypsy children would come from a background that I frankly would consider negative and thus would not want it rubbing off my child (a moot point because they almost never send their children to school).

Similarly, were I living in the US I would have issues with my child being lumped in with black children, while if I was in the UK I'd not have the same reservations. So it would be more the culture than the race that would be an issue for me.

Of course, this is probably not a very politically correct view, but given the choice of social justice and my child's wellbeing I'm more than happy to throw the former out the window.

Nevyn

maryjane1 have you asked for a copy of their policies and procedure which outline their criteria for selecting which children ?

It think you may find it is children at risk or with difficulties in their family set up that will get places. If it is funded as you say then it will be run in conjunction with your local health boards 'baby' nurse and she should be able to furnish you with those documents if those running the group can not.

A lot of these groups/places have been set up to nip a lot of problems in the bud before these children get to primary school and include parenting classes for the parents of the toddlers.

metrovelvet

If you sent your child to such a school, where children were promoted based on their ethnicity, then you would risk your child being perceived as having had a hand up because somewhere along the line they qualified as an ethnic minority and not because they deserved them based on achievement or talent.

Having recently undergone surgery where the head of the surgical team was a black woman, I had a momentary feeling of horror that I was about to be sliced open by an affirmative action candidate. Had positive discrimination not been in place, I certainly would not have had this flash of horror. Yes I know I know.... Im so bad for thinking and feeling this... but this is a product of positive discrimination, where the world around you does not quite trust your accreditations because the world around you is not sure if you have them based on race or on merit.

Also wouldnt you want your child competing/collaborating with children who are on the same level academically with him or her? You won't get that in a classroom where children are placed based soley on ethnicity.

Nevyn

This is not a class room this is a preschool group for children aged 3 to 6, by the sound of it.

The Corinthian

Thaedydal wrote:

This is not a class room this is a preschool group for children aged 3 to 6, by the sound of it.

That is is a preschool group doesn't lessen the importance of the influence that such an environment will have on the child's development though to the point that it can be ignored.

Shelli

metrovelvet wrote:

Also wouldnt you want your child competing/collaborating with children who are on the same level academically with him or her? You won't get that in a classroom where children are placed based soley on ethnicity.

Are you implying that children of different races or financial situations would not be on the same academic level?
In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Nevyn

The Corinthian wrote:

That is is a preschool group doesn't lessen the importance of the influence that such an environment will have on the child's development though to the point that it can be ignored.

True and as parents we have to discriminate in many ways for the good of our children from what they wear, eat, read and in some cases who they are friends with and if a certain environment has a negative impact then we have to look at
removing our children from it or not placing them there in the first place.

The reason for clarifying what type of group this is that the rules are different for a private preschool, a preschool attached to a primary school, a barnado's/gno preschool or a community funded preschool.

Nevyn

Shelli wrote:

Are you implying that children of different races or financial situations would not be on the same academic level?

That is happening Shelli, that is why there are early start programs and after school home work clubs in most of the school which are deemed to be in a disadvantaged areas.

It is not a case of different races but different cultures and of English not being a strong language at home.

Shelli wrote:

In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Which is why for the most part, places in such programs are reserved for children who need them.

The Corinthian

Shelli wrote:

In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Well in my experience the opposite is not true, at least in the case of financial situations, as many of the issues that affect children from such backgrounds will continue to act against them. So there you go.

maniac101

There appears to be a view that foreign children are at an advantage because some pre-school places are reserved for ethnic minorities. In reality, foreign national parents generally experience far greater difficulties getting their children into the schools of their choice than Irish parents do. Anecdote suggests that this difficulty varies depending on the creed and the skin colour of the children, as well as on their nationalities. A policy such as the one that maryjane describes is intended to redress the balance. This policy is not racist, it's a measure to combat societal racism. In other words, it's an attempt (albeit a crude one) to right a wrong. Ideally, societal problems should not have to be addressed in school admissions policies – but this isn't an ideal world.

metrovelvet

Shelli wrote:

Are you implying that children of different races or financial situations would not be on the same academic level?
In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Comparing immigrants with natives is not the same as comparing different races or ethnicities. You can be a native but not white, just as you can be an immigrant but be white or even Irish by heritage.

What I am more than implying is that in programs where there are government imposed quotas on admissions and where promotion is not based on merit or talent but on skin colour or ethnicity,that there is a high chance that those students who did "benefit" from positive discrimination were not at the same level academically; if they were they wouldn't need to exploit the policy which admits them into schools having lesser test scores and grades then their caucasian counterparts.

What I am also saying is that while it attempt to redress racism, it in the end amplifies and reinforces it.

Nevyn

Academically ?

/me wonders how colouring in, stack the blocks and learning to not bite the other children are academic subjects...

maryjane1

Thaedydal wrote:

maryjane1 have you asked for a copy of their policies and procedure which outline their criteria for selecting which children ?

It think you may find it is children at risk or with difficulties in their family set up that will get places. If it is funded as you say then it will be run in conjunction with your local health boards 'baby' nurse and she should be able to furnish you with those documents if those running the group can not.

A lot of these groups/places have been set up to nip a lot of problems in the bud before these children get to primary school and include parenting classes for the parents of the toddlers.

i have asked at the playschool who decides if someone meets the criteria for their selection process and she said the parents themselves. the form has a section where you tick if you are financially disadvantaged or ethnic minority.

Nevyn

The forum would not exist with out a policy document to back it up, unless it is a complete cowboy operation.

metrovelvet

maryjane1 wrote:

i have asked at the playschool who decides if someone meets the criteria for their selection process and she said the parents themselves. the form has a section where you tick if you are financially disadvantaged or ethnic minority.

Isnt this segregation?

Orion

Firstly can I mention the topic - "positive discrimination" is an oxymoron. Discrimination by its very nature is negative.

And so, I think this is completely wrong. Skin colour, ethnicity, citizenship, or any other reason should not be allowed to decide entrance into any educational establishment - preschool or otherwise.

And I would be amazed to discover this is legal. The Equal Status & Employment Equality Acts only exempt educational establishments from discrimination if is to protect the ethos of that establishment - and even then it's only an exemption from religious discrimination iirc. An example is a Catholic school not allowing an unmarried mother to teach there (don't laugh - it's happened). This obviously cannot be not the case here so I would contact the Equality Agency and get their opinion. Provide full details and they will advise you on this. I've dealt with them in the past and found them very helpful.

delos

maryjane1 wrote:

would you send your child to a preschool that "positvely discriminates" i.e. reserves priority places for ethnic minorities. which is compleyely above board and legal.

To answer the OP's original question - absolutely. I have done so with both my children.

The pre-school in question has a policy of reserving places for single parents and low income families (while reducing the fees). This facilitates not only a pre-school education for children that may otherwise be denied access to pre-school education on financial grounds but also allows the parents (typically the mother) to remain in the workforce. It also reserves places for ethnic minorities as part of the pre-school's ethos is to reflect cultural diversity.

I did not send my children to pre-school to give them an academic 'leg-up' -I would much rather that they experienced an environment of diversity and tolerance of difference at a young age.

Is this selection policy discriminatory? Yes, I suppose it is. However at least it open about it. Most schools will give preferences to applicants who have a connection with the school (siblings currently attending, parents who are past pupils for example) which discriminates against single child families and people newly arrived in the country.

maryjane1

Macros42 wrote:

Firstly can I mention the topic - "positive discrimination" is an oxymoron. Discrimination by its very nature is negative.

And so, I think this is completely wrong. Skin colour, ethnicity, citizenship, or any other reason should not be allowed to decide entrance into any educational establishment - preschool or otherwise.

And I would be amazed to discover this is legal. The Equal Status & Employment Equality Acts only exempt educational establishments from discrimination if is to protect the ethos of that establishment - and even then it's only an exemption from religious discrimination iirc. An example is a Catholic school not allowing an unmarried mother to teach there (don't laugh - it's happened). This obviously cannot be not the case here so I would contact the Equality Agency and get their opinion. Provide full details and they will advise you on this. I've dealt with them in the past and found them very helpful.

it is very legal. i have been onto the equality authority as i said its positive discrimination and therefore is legal

maryjane1

i have decided against sending my son to this school. i have his name down for 3 playschools. his name is down for this one because we moved here a couple of years ago and i thought it would be nice for him to meet local children. in my opinion it is not right that the some of the children he would be mixing with are selected because of reasons other than being on the waiting list like everyone else in the category of "neither of the above".

the other playschool are far better anyway and have a very diverse mix of children based solely on the fact that they are good playschools, not because the government have decided there should be a certain amount of each section of our society obviously "ethnic minorites" choose schools based on merit too not simply because they are entitled to place.

Kernel32

I don't understand all the fuss over this when every day primary schools enrollment policies discriminate againist non-Catholics. These are public primary schools funded by all taxpayers money. I hope that the OP makes the same fuss when they read up on the enrollment policy for the primary school.

Woof

Well I have been discriminated then in BOTH ways.

1. DD was denied a place in creche as a) we don't receive social welfare and b) we are not "ethnic minority" despite the fact that its MY taxes contributing to this school as it is 100% government run. I now have to pay more for the prilivege of traveling even further - What am I paying my taxes for OR should I say who??

AND

DD cannot go to local school because we are not Church of Ireland!!!!! This again will mean more travel for us.

Can anyone honestly tell me that that is fair and expect me to be happy about having to spend an extra 1 hour a day and an extra €200 per month for someone else to benefit.

Orion

Kernel32 wrote:

I don't understand all the fuss over this when every day primary schools enrollment policies discriminate againist non-Catholics. These are public primary schools funded by all taxpayers money. I hope that the OP makes the same fuss when they read up on the enrollment policy for the primary school.

Like I mentioned earlier - this is perfectly legal. And I don't think it can even be challenged constitutionally as both Acts (Equal Status and Employment Equality) which give schools a religious exemption were referred to the Supreme Court by the President. They passed these clauses so I don't think they can be challenged again.

Note I say perfectly legal - ethical is a different story :mad:

maryjane1

Kernel32 wrote:

I don't understand all the fuss over this when every day primary schools enrollment policies discriminate againist non-Catholics. These are public primary schools funded by all taxpayers money. I hope that the OP makes the same fuss when they read up on the enrollment policy for the primary school.

as a matter of fact my children attend a church of ireland school even though we are catholics. as i said earlier it is a school which has many ethnisities and my children have friends from all parts of the world. the school however doesnt choose children based on where they were born. i had no problem getting them places there and my toddler will go there too and most likely ill send him totheir preschool too now.

Time Magazine

Macros42 wrote:

Firstly can I mention the topic - "positive discrimination" is an oxymoron. Discrimination by its very nature is negative.

And so, I think this is completely wrong.

Well you're basing your logic on phraseology there. I'd tend not to "discriminate" against policies on their name. Discrimination is not always wrong. For example, in economics, there exists a whole field of study on price discrimination. Simple examples of these are haircut prices and airline tickets. If you're an OAP, you'll get a discount on your haircut. This is not "completely wrong"; well, not unless you have a particular problem with OAPs/under 12s/students. Rather than have a simplistic one-price mechanism, barbers adjust the price to suit the realities of life: people generally have less liquid resources as children, students or OAPs. It's a simple discriminating practice, based primarily on age, which acts to alleviate the problems of social realities. With regard to airline tickets, anecdotally analyze the differential in pricing when you're willing to spend a Sunday at your destination. Hiring somebody on a Sunday, particularly after working the previous few days, is generally quite expensive and firms do not wish to do this. Thus "staying on Sunday" is primarily a consumer rather than commercial trait. As a result, air transport firms adapt their prices to acknowledge that consumers have less willingness to pay for a flight than a firm. Consumers get lower prices. This is far more efficient than simply using an average price between the consumer- and commercial-price, and any economist will agree. Although companies pay higher prices, consumers pay lower prices and the net benefit is positive.

Skin colour, ethnicity, citizenship, or any other reason should not be allowed to decide entrance into any educational establishment - preschool or otherwise.

I take it you're an egalitarian in the sense that you believe women should receive equal pay to men ex ante, yes? And that children of lower socio-economic stats but equal intellect should attend university to the same extent as middle-to-upper-class children? These seem like reasonable expectations to me.

Unfortunately, as we all know, this is not the case. Women do not receive as much pay as men. A child from Ballymun is far less likely to attend a university than a child from Dundrum. Of course there are many reasons for this. Men are naturally stronger than women, so that gives them some natural advantage in terms of marginal product and thus wage. Children from Ballymun are probably from less intelligent parents than the parents of the child in Dundrum so by extension the child from Dundrum is probably brighter. But I think everyone knows that these differences only explain some of the variation in success/accession/development. There remains a certain amount, the residual, that is discrimination against women and against whatever minority group you wish to name.

For the most part, such discrimination is illegal. As an unfortunate collateral damage to our "beyond reasonable doubt" legal system, not all cases can be pursued. In reality, there is not equality of opportunity between classes; there is no "fair race". Research on Irish (and indeed people of other nationalities) opinions on this issue of social justice strongly indicates that people want a fair race and accept the results thereof. But we have this unfortunate differential of discrimination that exists in the outcome, where women receive less income than men despite it being expressly forbidden by law.

The problem of women not earning as much as men is transferable to so many other schemata. Using the race example, one in eleven white Americans are below the poverty but one in four black Americans are. On average, black families in America earn $20,000 less per year than white families.

Many people have argued that the best way to solve this problem is to give minorities the hand-up to provide them with the opportunity of catching up. By virtue of the fact that you, as parents, earn more than other kids' parents give your child an advantage. As this advantage is inherited, many claim it is unfair. In all probability, your kids will be fine. But the additional value to the minority is greater than the marginal benefit to a wealthier, white kid. On these grounds, on a societal level, people are better-off. It is just like the airplane ticket example, but in this case Irish people are the firms who face higher prices. Yes, it can be construed as a subsidy to the poorer and yes it is your taxes that are funding the school. But it's precisely the type of subsidy that can't be argued on the old "shower of wasters" ground - it's for basic educational purposes to the less well-off. A couple of years ago the French film Caché caught my attention. There are several ways of interpreting that film, but one of the most powerful is

how failing to fully provide for and educate our neighbours can come back haunt those who spurned the lessers' opportunities.

In this sense, it's in your interest too, to not have ghettoization, or whatever you want to call it.

SarahMc

Community creches and playschools in this country (like the one you describe) were set up and funded by a European Equality for Women measure. Women who find it difficult to access the workforce get priority.

Almost all of them give priority to children of lone parents or those coming off social welfare. They all must have social inclusion policies. This is the first case I have heard of that gives priority to children from an ethnic minority. There may be local data that shows that women from ethic minorities in your area have difficulty paying market rates for childcare?

Your argument is not with the playschool, but with your local TD / govt. who will not fund affordable pre-school for all children.

seahorse

Ibid wrote:

Children from Ballymun are probably from less intelligent parents than the parents of the child in Dundrum so by extension the child from Dundrum is probably brighter.

You made some valid points in your post Ibid, but I really did take exception to this particular remark. The children of socially disadvantaged areas are the children of less educated parents, not less intelligent ones; there is a very distinct difference.

Time Magazine

seahorse wrote:

You made some valid points in your post Ibid, but I really did take exception to this particular remark. The children of socially disadvantaged areas are the children of less educated parents, not less intelligent ones; there is a very distinct difference.

I agree they're less educated and this is the primary reason they're disadvantaged. Although I have no evidence of this, indeed it's very hard to measure "intelligence", I would not be surprised to find that it's not all social differencing at play here and that there is some natural intellect differential; i.e. that richer people are naturally smarter. Of course I am not saying this is true in every case, but on average I think it's a reasonable enough conclusion. It certainly provides a reasonable candidate for the reason why the rich people are richer in the first place - and I can't think of any other.

I've been asked by the mod of this forum to not turn this into a debate though and have edited my original post suitably. If you disagree with my opinion that there is no difference in natural intellect, that's fine, it only serves to further my point that there are real discriminatory effects prevalent in society. If this is the case, it's a stronger argument for the sort of preventative action that the pre-school in question is taking.

I would also like to agree entirely with SarahMc; it's an absolute disgrace that there is not universal pre-schooling.

metrovelvet

Ibid wrote:

I agree they're less educated and this is the primary reason they're disadvantaged. Although I have no evidence of this, indeed it's very hard to measure "intelligence", I would not be surprised to find that it's not all social differencing at play here and that there is some natural intellect differential; i.e. that richer people are naturally smarter. Of course I am not saying this is true in every case, but on average I think it's a reasonable enough conclusion. It certainly provides a reasonable candidate for the reason why the rich people are richer in the first place - and I can't think of any other.
.

Inherited status, access, and privalege or 100% graft. It does not mean that they are educated or smart, it just means that they have the connections and degrees to grant them an avenue by which to enter more entitled positions. That or the drive and ambition.

The world is full of wealthy idiots and poor but self-educated [maybe not with degrees to prove it] people to disabuse this correlation you have made.

seahorse

Ibid wrote:

I would not be surprised to find that it's not all social differencing at play here and that there is some natural intellect differential; i.e. that richer people are naturally smarter.

It’s curious; I can think of no other social group, within class, race, nor religion, which you would be able to disparage by relegating to the position of the inherently stupid without being flamed for it.

The Corinthian

seahorse wrote:

It’s curious; I can think of no other social group, within class, race, nor religion, which you would be able to disparage by relegating to the position of the inherently stupid without being flamed for it.

Actually there is. Men. It seems perfectly acceptable in popular media to paint men as dumb or simply driven by their penises.

Time Magazine

seahorse wrote:

It’s curious; I can think of no other social group, within class, race, nor religion, which you would be able to disparage by relegating to the position of the inherently stupid without being flamed for it.

Oh would ye get off your horses? I said "I would not be surprised to find that ... there is some natural intellect differential." I never said it was definitive or that the lower-classes are "inherently stupid." To the contrary, I said that if you don't believe agree with this reasoning it furthers the argument for discriminating practices.

Your politically correct howling won't change my lack of surprise if a survey were to prove that the kids I grew up with are not as bright as the kids my wealthier friends grew up with.

The Corinthian

On the subject of intellect and income, there have been correlations between the two historically. However most theorize that this is due to environmental rather than genetic reasons. That is, for example, without adequate stimuli, children's brains do not develop to their fullest potential.

The human brain continually develops neural pathways based upon usage - if the environment lacks such stimuli, then these pathways simply fail to develop, or even degrade in adults.

In lower income backgrounds academic or intellectual pursuits are typically of lesser importance than in higher income backgrounds with many studies showing that the greatest barriers towards entering higher education being social rather than financial. Children from wealthier families go to college because it's expected, while those from poorer families tend not to because the reverse is true.

Additionally diet has been cited as another factor, although this has been put in some question in recent years.

metrovelvet

^ And if you look at immigrant groups in the US, who have historically been poor and underadvantaged, like Russian Jews, or Cubans, but who practised an education ethic at home, second generations used this ethic to gain footholds out of tenements and poorer stratospheres and were successful.

You don't need to be a millionaire to go to the library. You need a little extra effort, like making your children read or discussing history at the dinner table, to make it a natural part of life so that your children have the language to be educated and sit among the educated regardless of the banger they get dropped off to school in.


Your politically correct howling won't change my lack of surprise if a survey were to prove that the kids I grew up with are not as bright as the kids my wealthier friends grew up with.


Ibid - it takes intelligence to recognise intelligence.