Staging a protest about this Dublin dog ban

raptor_strife

It seems to me that there is large discontent about this dog ban by Dublin City Council. I've only talked to a handful of people who support it, but seen dozens of people opposing it.

The council are pushing to have this pushed nationwide, so this could affect everyone soon. I think that dog owners and people in opposition of this violation of our rights, from Dublin and its surrounding areas, need to stage some sort or protest in the city. Am I crazy thinking that such a protest might be effective? I don't think the council realise how many people are actually opposed to this, and having a peaceful protest in the city might help to ensure that this doesn't happen nationwide.


Just to clarify, I'm not trying to get into a discussion about the dog ban, there are other places for that.. I want to see if people feel some kind of protest would be worthwhile, or if it's completely unwarranted

Mick86

raptor_strife wrote:

It seems to me that there is large discontent about this dog ban by Dublin City Council. I've only talked to a handful of people who support it, but seen dozens of people opposing it.

The dog ban is like a lot of local authority and government legislation. Unenforcable. Why not just ignore it.

bonkey

raptor_strife wrote:

Am I crazy thinking that such a protest might be effective?

Yes.

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to get into a discussion about the dog ban, there are other places for that..

Funny...I would have said this is exactly the place for it. Surely if you want to organise a protest, you should be willing to discuss why you think one is needed. This isn't a protest-organisation board, after all.

I want to see if people feel some kind of protest would be worthwhile, or if it's completely unwarranted

It may be warranted, but I doubt its worthwhile.

oscarBravo

What dog ban?

Zombrex

oscarBravo wrote:

What dog ban?

11 breeds of dogs that have been classified as "dangerous", including Rottweilers and German Shepards (Alsatians), have been effectively banned from Dublin Corp. housing, in that it you are now not allowed to have one in either a Dub Corp house or flat.

While it is a bit excessive to call this a "Dublin ban" (as far as I know it only applies to Dublin Corp housing), it will effect a lot of dogs and has been condemned by the DSPCA as they fear that hundreds of dogs will be killed to comply with the order.

MoominPapa

Does the council often come out with this sort of patronising/fascistic crap? Unless there is a nationwide ban legislated by central govenment this is singling out one section of society and potentially criminalising them while their nextdoor neighbours (who may have bought their house off the council) can own as many of the feckers as they like. I couldn't care less about dangerous breeds being banned as long as they are banned for all. What next? Council tenant curfew anyone?

bonkey

MoominPapa wrote:

this is singling out one section of society and potentially criminalising them while their nextdoor neighbours (who may have bought their house off the council) can own as many of the feckers as they like.

My house, My Rules.

Not my house...not my rules.

Spot the difference? Its no more victimisation any more than landlords saying "no pets" is.

While I disagree with the ban, this cry of oppression isn't a good reason to do so as it argues an indefensible point. The council owns the property - they have every right to set whatever rules they want about its use as long as those rules don't contravene the law in terms of discrimination.

Colour, religion, age, gender...that sort of thing is explicitly banned as unfair discrimination. Ownership of pets? Nope.

MoominPapa

I am a council tenant I cannot own a pitbull
I buy my house off the council now I can own a pitbull
Council Tenant=untrustworthy
House owner/renting private accommodation=trustworthy
This situation seems fair to you?

stipey

Am I crazy thinking that such a protest might be effective?

Maybe if everybody brought their dogs with them.

The the desk monkeys in DCC who passed said law would be too petrified to leave their office. Sooner or later they will need food and will be forced to repeal the law to bring and end to your protest

Sure some might be eaten as their colleagues turn to canabilism when they get too hungry... but it just might work.


Seriously though go for it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Jackie laughlin

The problem with any legislation, rule or ban which refers to breeds is that it can only affect pedigree/purebred/IKC registered dogs.

It is plain daft to talk of dogs as if they were all the same. Each breed has been man made for a purpose. Working gundogs are not active, playful, friendly and gentle by accident. They were bred that way so that they could work enthusiastically for hours in close proximity to people and other dogs and so that they would not flitter the pheasants etc. Other breeds are bred to attack. The latter should not be available to the average person as they are genetically disposed to being dangerous. However, such a ban could apply only to a purebred dog.

The rule falls apart when faced by, say, a terrier/rottweiller cross or cross that again with, say, a pit bull. Mongrels defy the possibility of rules. I take it there is no support for an outright ban on mongrels!

silverharp

Their main target were flat complexes, where lets be honest anyone owing a pitbull is very likely using the dog to intimidate people. They are planning to be sensible about enforcement, so an old lady with a 10 year old German Shepherd would not be effected. A lot of private apartments don't allow pets, so don't see the problem.

Gone West

Jackie laughlin wrote:

However, such a ban could apply only to a purebred dog.

This is true to some extent, but in corpo housing, their rules (note not laws) are flexible and easily enforcable. Its not like its been written into the constitution.

And yes, a protest is always worthwhile if theres a chance it will get anything changed.

Hagar

stipey wrote:

Maybe if everybody brought their dogs with them.

I would advise against that.

A large crowd of people and a large crowd of dogs, some of them are going to get excited, the dogs, not the people, and start barking or fighting. These are the ones that will appear on the RTE News that evening, barking Alsatians and Rottweilers straining at the leash, being held back by their owners. If someone gets bitten and it's shown happening on TV...

It won't do your cause any good.

jmayo

Wicknight wrote:

11 breeds of dogs that have been classified as "dangerous", including Rottweilers and German Shepards (Alsatians), have been effectively banned from Dublin Corp. housing, in that it you are now not allowed to have one in either a Dub Corp house or flat.

While it is a bit excessive to call this a "Dublin ban" (as far as I know it only applies to Dublin Corp housing), it will effect a lot of dogs and has been condemned by the DSPCA as they fear that hundreds of dogs will be killed to comply with the order.

Does anybody not think that it is a bit much to have a large dog kept in a flat in the first place?
Alsatians were originally bred as herding dogs, hence it other name German Shepherd.
So they are used to open spaces not 50 to 100 sq feet, up ten flights of stairs. Rothweilers also have a herding background and yet another dog that needs space.

Surely it is upto the property owners (i.e. Dublin City Council) what types of animals are allowed be kept on their property.
Actually the use of the word animal could also refer to some of the two legged variety.
If you are renting from private landlords there are usually stipulations about keeping pets so why can't Dublin Council not does so as well.

fly_agaric

oscarBravo wrote:

What dog ban?

...I sense a move to the Dublin City forum

MoominPapa wrote:

(non-council tenants)...can own as many of the feckers as they like

True but unless they happen to have their own private park/grounds etc I think they will not be able to legally walk these dogs anywhere in the DCC area (streets, parks, playing pitches etc etc etc).
Am I wrong about this?

stipey

Hagar wrote:

I would advise against that.

A large crowd of people and a large crowd of dogs, some of them are going to get excited, the dogs, not the people, and start barking or fighting. These are the ones that will appear on the RTE News that evening, barking Alsatians and Rottweilers straining at the leash, being held back by their owners. If someone gets bitten and it's shown happening on TV...

It won't do your cause any good.

Apologies for any misunderstanding Hagar, I couldn't find the tongue in cheek smilie.. although I thought that the content of my original post would have been sufficient to convey this!

Binomate

Anyone who keeps a dog of any kind in a flat or an apartment doesn't deserve to have a dog imo. Bring on the ban.

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote:

...I sense a move to the Dublin City forum

Your crystal ball truly is amazing.

Hagar

@ Stipey, that's what I thought. I just used the quote as an intro to a "don't bring your dog" post.

BendiBus

jmayo wrote:

Does anybody not think that it is a bit much to have a large dog kept in a flat in the first place?
Alsatians were originally bred as herding dogs, hence it other name German Shepherd.
So they are used to open spaces not 50 to 100 sq feet, up ten flights of stairs. Rothweilers also have a herding background and yet another dog that needs space.

Exactly! Anyone who keeps a Rottweiller, a Shepherd or any other large dog in a flat shouldn't be allowed own a dog.

Degsy

Houses and apartments are meant for people not dogs,dogs require space and excercise and has allready been pointed out,some breeds are made for fighting,nothing else.To my mind the people who this law will affect the most are the tracksuit-wearing "hardmen" who use dangerous dogs as an extension of thier machismo.

Trinity

Its the dogs roaming the streets and that are allowed out without a leash that are causing the problem. And also how the dogs are reared. Its a silly rule they can never enforce, what are they gonna do knock on peoples doors?

There are plenty of responsible pet owners that live in council housing. Dogs shouldnt be in flats. I moved from my apartment to a more expensive house when i decided to keep my foster pup that i was only supposed to have a few days. I knew that was the choice i had to make.

biko

All fighting dogs should be banned nationwide, bullterrier, doberman et cetera.
They are only used by scum to terrorise each other and intimidate civilians.
Alsations should be allowed to be used by the elderly to protect themselves from above mentioned individuals.

Degsy

Trinity1 wrote:

Its a silly rule they can never enforce, what are they gonna do knock on peoples doors?

Thats exactly what they're gonna do..its not like dog owners know how to stop the bleeding things from barking.There's such a thing as Dog wardens and hopefully they'll be out in force once this thing kicks in.They should also get rid of dogs who're kept out in back gardens for years at a stretch,howling,barking and generally making lives miserable for anybody within hearing distance.

Trinity

Degsy wrote:

Thats exactly what they're gonna do..its not like dog owners know how to stop the bleeding things from barking.There's such a thing as Dog wardens and hopefully they'll be out in force once this thing kicks in.They should also get rid of dogs who're kept out in back gardens for years at a stretch,howling,barking and generally making lives miserable for anybody within hearing distance.

I didnt want to mention dog wardens but seeing as you bring it up! I'm looking out my mothers window and i can see 3 dogs. Not fighting breeds mind you, but any dog is capable of doing damage. One of them is huge!! My sister is terrified of him.

I've yet to see a dog warden in this estate.

Any breed of dog can be reported if barking, neglected, left in gardens not just fighting breeds.

These dogs have been free to roam the estate for a few years. You see the yobbos walking round with their pitbulls, its the ones that let them off the leash with the kids out playing that frightens me more than the ones on a tight lease or harness.

DOnt get me wrong i dont approve of the way these dogs are bred for the purpose in which the scum use them. But as someone said German Shepherds are a much loved breed that lots of people keep, particularly old people. And they shouldnt be punished cos of the scumbags.

Degsy

Trinity1 wrote:

I didnt want to mention dog wardens but seeing as you bring it up! I'm looking out my mothers window and i can see 3 dogs. Not fighting breeds mind you, but any dog is capable of doing damage. One of them is huge!! My sister is terrified of him.

I've yet to see a dog warden in this estate.

Any breed of dog can be reported if barking, neglected, left in gardens not just fighting breeds.

These dogs have been free to roam the estate for a few years. You see the yobbos walking round with their pitbulls, its the ones that let them off the leash with the kids out playing that frightens me more than the ones on a tight lease or harness.

DOnt get me wrong i dont approve of the way these dogs are bred for the purpose in which the scum use them. But as someone said German Shepherds are a much loved breed that lots of people keep, particularly old people. And they shouldnt be punished cos of the scumbags.

I really dont think Alsations are a much loved breed kept primarily by old people.They're a herding dog originaly but nowadays are more popular as police dogs or guard dogs..they're also responsible for a fair few attacks on people.The idea of little old ladies keeping alsations for company is quite frankly ridiculous.

deaddonkey

Degsy wrote:

I really dont think Alsations are a much loved breed kept primarily by old people.They're a herding dog originaly but nowadays are more popular as police dogs or guard dogs..they're also responsible for a fair few attacks on people.The idea of little old ladies keeping alsations for company is quite frankly ridiculous.

you are aware, right, that head for head, there are more german shepherds worldwide than any other single breed of dog apart from labradors?

you are aware, that the germans shepherd is a dog used by the police to catch criminals, is a drug sniffer dog, explosives detection dog, is a guide dog for the blind and a mountain search and rescue dog, therapy dog, and also an extremely popular, well mannered family pet, right?

It isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact, and you're completely and utterly wrong.

I suggest a little research before you post next time...

Trinity

deaddonkey wrote:

you are aware, right, that head for head, there are more german shepherds worldwide than any other single breed of dog apart from labradors?

you are aware, that the germans shepherd is a dog used by the police to catch criminals, is a drug sniffer dog, explosives detection dog, is a guide dog for the blind and a mountain search and rescue dog, therapy dog, and also an extremely popular, well mannered family pet, right?

It isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact, and you're completely and utterly wrong.

I suggest a little research before you post next time...

Obviously he isnt!!. I've had the privilege of doing the odd bit of fostering for a couple of rescues and this was one of the most popular dog along with the labrador amongst dog lovers for loyalty, easy training and the best with children.

Any dog has the potential to attack, just as any human has the potential to kill another human. Doesnt mean we will all go out and do it.

My MIL has one, shes in her late 50's, as does a friend of mine also in his 50's. I see more old men out walking these dogs and i have yet to see a scum bag with one.

carlmango11

omg thats terrible! What a dumb idea! Regardless of whether the dogs are kept in flats or not it's better than them just being abandoned as they will be by sum heartless assholes who only wanted the dog to look hard. The DSPCA are totally right on what'll happen!!!!

Trinity

carlmango11 wrote:

omg thats terrible! What a dumb idea! Regardless of whether the dogs are kept in flats or not it's better than them just being abandoned as they will be by sum heartless assholes who only wanted the dog to look hard. The DSPCA are totally right on what'll happen!!!!

DIdnt read what the DSPCA said but i gather its along the line of a mass killing.

DOgs handed into the pound are given 24 hours to live or be rehomed. Staffs, pitbulls etc are not rehomed, they are generally put down. (mostly)

Rescues are overworked, underfunded (if at all) and bursting at the seams with unwanted, abandoned, neglected or abused animals.

Jackie laughlin

There is no reason why a flat dweller should not keep a dog, even a large dog. Most dogs spend the bulk of their lives indoors with their owners. Then they go out with their owners. Some large dogs need very little exercise; some small dogs need a lot.

Some breeds should be encouraged to die out as their genetic purpose is incompatible with peaceful living.

To repeat, it is a question of what the breed was created for.

Corpo rules can't be bent as they go along. Any court would force any organisation to obey its own rules.

I very much object to the view that ownership trumps all and that tenants must always obey. That's nonsence and offensive too.

kkposse

It really is stupid and asking for trouble allowing these dogs to live in apartment blocks, the council made the right decision!!

Trinity

kkposse wrote:

It really is stupid and asking for trouble allowing these dogs to live in apartment blocks, the council made the right decision!!

The ban is for houses as well, unless you own the property.

These are the breeds, but its not just pure breds its cross breds too. People are being asked to dispose of their family pet they may have had for years. And while i might be glad to see some scumbags being parted with their extensions of manhood, half these people may live with their parents who own their house or be in private rented accomodation. SO really its not solving the problem.


The breeds are: English Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Rottweiler, German Shepherd (Alsatian), Doberman, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Japanese Akita, Bull Mastiff, Japanese Tosa and Bandog. Cross-breeds of these dogs or crosses of these dogs with any other breed are also banned

stipey

@Hagar, apologies so.

Patricide

Wait wait wait,what the hell? Dont live in dublin but this seems proposturous. Just goes to show you everything goes fine and the second theres one attack in the media people get the worst idea.

What are the 11 breeds in question does anyone know?

I think this is a joke, most big dogs can be the nicest ones going, my boxer in 8 years has never once bitten one person, nor attempted to (unless you count one punctured bike tire) . I know rotwierlers dobermand and german shepards can be great dogs and although they are all capable of doing damage i think there safe out most of em. I mean things like cars can do damage they kill loads of people a year but you dont see people putting in a car ban do you?

Big dogs can look menacing to some people and could intimidate people but ffs, spiders scare the bejesus out of other people and heights, if your afraid of dogs stop complaining that they should be locked up, you dont bitch that there are too many spiders do you.

Trinity

Patricide wrote:

Wait wait wait,what the hell? Dont live in dublin but this seems proposturous. Just goes to show you everything goes fine and the second theres one attack in the media people get the worst idea.

What are the 11 breeds in question does anyone know?

I think this is a joke, most big dogs can be the nicest ones going, my boxer in 8 years has never once bitten one person, nor attempted to (unless you count one punctured bike tire) . I know rotwierlers dobermand and german shepards can be great dogs and although they are all capable of doing damage i think there safe out most of em. I mean things like cars can do damage they kill loads of people a year but you dont see people putting in a car ban do you?

Big dogs can look menacing to some people and could intimidate people but ffs, spiders scare the bejesus out of other people and heights, if your afraid of dogs stop complaining that they should be locked up, you dont bitch that there are too many spiders do you.

I posted the breeds above, i didnt know anythng about it either til i saw this thread!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Patricide wrote:

Wait wait wait,what the hell? Dont live in dublin

You don't have to live in Dublin as DCC has asked government that this ban be extended nationwide.

cr1272

raptor_strife wrote:

I think that dog owners and people in opposition of this violation of our rights, from Dublin and its surrounding areas, need to stage some sort or protest in the city.

There is a peaceful demo being held today (July 13th ) outside the DCC offices on Wood Quay at 2pm, which has been organised by Dog Training Ireland, with the support of various organisations such as ANVIL, ISPCA, DSPCA & The Kennel Club. More on that here. There is also a petition that you can sign here.

corkimp

Groups like ANVIL are protesting the ban. And yes they are trying to make it national. But if they want to lose votes, and probably alot of protests, they are going the right way about it! I'm living in WAterford and have a GSD pup. My sister in Cork has a GSD dog. When I was 12, we had a GSD female. My neighbours labrador female was more vicious - she wold lunge at us when we walked her. Their dog was never leash trained, not fenced in or controllable. Do /I hate labs for attacking my GSD? No - it was the owners who refused to train her who was at fault. My dog only went for the Lab when forced to do so - to protect me. Yet my dog was hit with a stick to break it up - she was seen more dangerous. Not fair but I pitied their dog more - not looked after near the end of her life and left to suffer cos they didn't want to put her to sleep.
There is another thread dedicated to this topic on animals and pets issues.

Patricide

Trinity1 wrote:

I posted the breeds above, i didnt know anythng about it either til i saw this thread!!

my bad, was too pissed off to read some of the thread.

What a joke. WHAT A JOKE.

Thrill

It's not fair to punish the masses to get at the few scumbags. How long will it be before they decide to add more dogs to that list?

seamus

thrill wrote:

It's not fair to punish the masses to get at the few scumbags. How long will it be before they decide to add more dogs to that list?

Remember that this only applies to council tenants having dogs living in their homes. Nothing more. No dogs have been banned in Dublin, it's not banned to walk your dog, it's not banned to keep or rear these breeds in private homes in the Dublin City area.

What this is, is an attempt to avoid the issue of non-enforcement of the existing laws. DCC think that by disallowing people from having certain breeds of animals, that the problem will go away. The facts of the matter are:
a. DCC or the Gardai cannot enter anyone's dwelling to remove the dog under these rules.
b. DCC or the Gardai cannot confiscate anyone's animal from anywhere (i.e. they can't stop them in the street) under these rules
c. DCC can only evict people who break the rules.
d. The people who keep these animals in such a way that they are dangerous to others, are the people who will ignore the rules. It's only the law-abiding people who'll comply.

If the Gardai had the resources to police this issue, and just confiscate the animals, regardless of where they lived, then DCC wouldn't have to waste their time attempting things like this.

It will fail, and it's futile to protest against it.

shane86

About time, the amount of skangers walking around with these has went through the roof over the last few months. Didnt they bring in laws in England against them lately? Id imagine the increase here is from the English dogs being offed here cheap.

Jip

seamus wrote:

Remember that this only applies to council tenants having dogs living in their homes. Nothing more. No dogs have been banned in Dublin, it's not banned to walk your dog, it's not banned to keep or rear these breeds in private homes in the Dublin City area.

I thought they were planning on also baning the from Council owned property such as parks etc. And according to the Times last Sunday there will be enforcement team, backed up the gardai, enforcing this if after notcies etc. people still aren't complying.

Shane, why not just ban scangers, they're the real problem.

blah

shane86 wrote:

About time, the amount of skangers walking around with these has went through the roof over the last few months. Didnt they bring in laws in England against them lately? Id imagine the increase here is from the English dogs being offed here cheap.

I moved over to London a while ago and it very noticable, the amount of chavs you see walking around with one or two small muscular dogs (like pitbulls or staffordshire bull terriers, not sure, I'm no expert). I see it as the equivalent of walking around with a broken bottle or a knife, as it's obvious they only keep these dogs to intimidate people. I read on an english forum, that apparently, these dogs are actually various kinds of crossbreeds so that you'd have to be an expert to know which ones are or are not banned, and so, police can't enforce the laws or tell the difference themselves.

I love those pics on the GSD thread, really makes me want one of my own. A friend of mine was recently telling me that GSDs are being used less for security and police work because they're no longer as aggressive as they once were, and are more suited as a family pet now. Anyone know about this?

seamus

Jip wrote:

And according to the Times last Sunday there will be enforcement team, backed up the gardai, enforcing this if after notcies etc. people still aren't complying.

Without knowing a whole pile about DCC's specific powers in the area, I would suspect that this "enforcement team" will consist of DCC knocking on doors, asking "Can I come in?" being told to F-off and that's it. Although if they spot an animal, the Gardai may ask to see the licence, and then issue fines when one isn't produced.

BeauZak

Thank You to Everyone. Next Demo will be a park area and on the weekend so we want hundreds of you to attend. Are ye on?

The following organisations attended. Please add yourself to the list if I have not included:


DTI
ANVIL Ireland
CALL
Dogs Trust
AFAR

Ashton Pound dog wardens were there but they only watched from a white van and did not participate. Gardai were there and the whole protest was covered on Mooney live so you can download that. Actually they commented as to how peaceful the demo was. No megaphones, no shouting just a peaceful gathering of lovely people and some really lovely dogs.

Check out the papers tomorrow. Specifically Indo and Times.

We made the following radio stations:

RTE1 (various programmes)
2FM Gerry Ryan
Newstalk
LMFM
BBC

And on TV
TV3
RTE1 (although I didn't see it)

Thanks again to everyone for their support!

Tara

arybvtcw0eolkf

shane86 wrote:

About time, the amount of skangers walking around with these has went through the roof over the last few months. Didnt they bring in laws in England against them lately? Id imagine the increase here is from the English dogs being offed here cheap.

So do something about the Skanger's, don't kill the dog's.

BeauZak

See this thread for more details

Lots of press coverage including TV3, RTE Radio, BBC. lots of newspaper coverage yesterday and today.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055118055&page=9

We are working on the next step. This cannot be allowed to be implemented nationwide.

Would help if you could check with your local county council regarding dogs listed on the restricted breeds list (please don't refer to these dogs as "banned" or "dangerous breeds")

Thanks,

Tara

nyc-dublin

This is completly ridiculous to ban one type of dog but not another

It is a fact that the owner is to blame for an unruly dog and NOTthe dog
Prosecute owners not dogs? does that not make sense??

Using an animal in a threatening manner?
is there a law on the books like this? if so, it should be strictly enforced

A well trained and cared for pit bull is less dangerous than a badly taken care of labrador for instance.

Also where does living in an apartment come into it?
Most cities around the world people live in apartments and there is still huge dog populations.
Dog owners have to get off their asses and walk their dogs every day
which is actually better for the dog than just letting it run around a garden

Can any reasonable person disagree with any of this

lightening

Dog destroy team arrive at normal families house. The family is distraught, their pet of eight years is going to get an injection, and die. They let the vet do the job, the kids are crying, the family will probably never get a dog again. Kids will never forget the death of a pet, its a sort of passage of life. However, the killing of the pet by the government for no reason other than a similar dog in very very different circumstances attacked another kid will affect a kid more than the dog dying of old age.

This dog wasn't going to kill anyone.

Dog destroy team arrive at heroine dealers house. They aren't let in to the house, they are threatened cursed at, spat at and told if they call again they will get their windpipe stabbed with a syringe. They call again with four gardai and of course the dog isn't there. The gardai wont have the manpower to call every week. The dog is hidden, out of sight for a while where it gets irritable, and isn't exposed to normal life, its paraded out every now and then for show, heaving on the lead, frothing at the mouth. Its overloaded with new smells, sounds, kids screaming, cars, trucks... A neighbour spots the dog and calls the gardai. The gards arrive four hours later and the dog is locked in a mates garden for a couple of days with no shelter. The scumbags basically hide the dog, its locked up for a couple of months and is taken out every now and then to intimidate.

This is the dog that will kill if it gets loose.