Bad Bev's sins are relative and supported

Jackie laughlin

I realise that any negative comment on SF is routinely dismissed as "SF bashing" but in all the threads condemning Bad Bev and her Mayo supporters, there was just one mention of the fact that she hadn't been convicted of anything while a similarly unrepentant but convicted gunrunner was quietly re-elected in Kerry.

The Kerry people who voted for this demon (I may as well use the word as I'll be accused of demonising him!) are just the worst example of voters in a number of constituencies who show themselves ready to support wrongdoing.

Mick86

We are talking Kerry here.

That said, North Tipp has been returning Michael Lowry consistently.

First past the post for FF in South Tipp has been before the courts for a serious assault.

The mud just will not stick to Bertie and if it did he would get re-elected anyway.

Arthur Morgan never has a bother in Louth despite a dubious past.

It's a hangover from our rebellious past where lawlessness was patriotic.

I should point out at this stage that none of the above has been convicted of anything (as far as I am aware) and they are all as pure as driven snow.:D

gandalf

The answer to your question is imho none of them should have been allowed to run.

Ethics in Politics is non existant in Ireland.

silverharp

there should be a rule to stop TD's offspring from being allowed to run on the basis that they are only there because of their family connections. Plus the one's that come to mind seem to be only pale imitations of their parents.

stovelid

The same reason you see TDs unfurling a wish list of parish pump demands in return for support. Parochial interests often outweigh minor trifles like ethics.

Mick86

silverharp wrote:

there should be a rule to stop TD's offspring from being allowed to run on the basis that they are only there because of their family connections. Plus the one's that come to mind seem to be only pale imitations of their parents.

That would be unconstitutional.

stipey

Ethics in Politics is non existant in Ireland.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this. They exist to some extent - but not enough for people to be held to account for their actions with any degree of consistency. The majority of the electorate are too apathetic and consequentially the opposition do not force the issue to the extent that they should.

In Norway (I think), an MP resigned from the her ministry, after only 10 days in office, after it emerged that she paid her child minder under the table!

In the UK David Blunket resigned because his girlfriend used pre-paid train tickets that are only reserved for wives. (In fact, I believe any British MP would resign if they forgot their wife's/husband's birthday.)

Much of the Irish electorate have very short memories and many still vote solely (and blindly) on the basis of civil war politics and family traditions. As such, the "Resign, retire, return" advice given to Parnell during the Kitty O'Shea "scandal" holds as true today as it did then.... think Haughey (gun running), Lowry, Flynn among others.

Voipjunkie

Of course some people believe that they know how people should vote to such an extent that they believe that they or some other "right" thinking people should be allowed to tell them who they can vote for.

Whilst we may not agree with who people vote for we have to respect the rights of people in a democracy to vote for who they wish.
The various people named in this thread have been elected and re elected by the people of this country who are fully aware of the past of those people.
And they have still chosen to be represented by them that is democracy like it or lump it.

Voipjunkie

silverharp wrote:

there should be a rule to stop TD's offspring from being allowed to run on the basis that they are only there because of their family connections. Plus the one's that come to mind seem to be only pale imitations of their parents.

They are elected because people vote for them if you believe that they have nothing to offer other than a family tree you should stand against them and show the people your alternative and let the people choose

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
That's the point. Significant numbers of voters APPROVE of wrongdoing. I don't believe any of the wriggling excuses, e.g. he/she is a good local rep. or we have an anti-authoritarian culture. That might be plausible in the case of some minor offence. It just won't wash to say, "I don't condone political violence but I'm prepared to vote for a gunrunner because he's a good local man." The offence is too big and alternative candidates too many for this to be remotely plausible. Face facts: in Kerry there is a considerable number of people who approve of their TD's murderous activities, while in Mayo a goodly number approve of helping people to cheat the rest of us. There's no need to carry on through the others.

These people standing for election create a plebiscite on their offences.

gbh

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip,
That's the point. Significant numbers of voters APPROVE of wrongdoing. I don't believe any of the wriggling excuses, e.g. he/she is a good local rep. or we have an anti-authoritarian culture. That might be plausible in the case of some minor offence. It just won't wash to say, "I don't condone political violence but I'm prepared to vote for a gunrunner because he's a good local man." The offence is too big and alternative candidates too many for this to be remotely plausible. Face facts: in Kerry there is a considerable number of people who approve of their TD's murderous activities, while in Mayo a goodly number approve of helping people to cheat the rest of us. There's no need to carry on through the others.

These people standing for election create a plebiscite on their offences.

To be fair, Sinn Fein and Martin Ferris have said that certain things about the troubles were wrong. I don't think you can compare the two really. One was largely a political struggle. Beverly Flynn has as yet not expressed any remorse or said what she did was wrong. She still doesn't think it was wrong. And she is the person we then expect to enact good laws. So one group has faced up to its past, its time Bev did as well.

Mick86

gbh wrote:

To be fair, Sinn Fein and Martin Ferris have said that certain things about the troubles were wrong.

Oh yeah. Anything that was done TO republicans was wrong, anything done BY republicans was OK.

Jackie laughlin

I was trying to avoid getting into this. However, the one thing that Bev and Ferris share is the lack of any shred of remorse. Of course their offences are completely different. Ferris was convicted. Bev was never charged. Importing guns is far more serious than tax crime. Both of these people would be shunned by decent people. It seems that a significant portion of the electorate is of the same mind as the offenders.

stovelid

I agree with JL to a point. While I think a section of the electorate admire unethical behavior; I think a larger section are just willing to ignore it for selfish electoral interests - whether that is getting a new bridge or just "not breaking the economy"

gbh wrote:

To be fair, Sinn Fein and Martin Ferris have said that certain things about the troubles were wrong. I don't think you can compare the two really. One was largely a political struggle. Beverly Flynn has as yet not expressed any remorse or said what she did was wrong. She still doesn't think it was wrong. And she is the person we then expect to enact good laws. So one group has faced up to its past, its time Bev did as well.

LOL at the "largely"..

gbh

Yes it was largely a political struggle to defend Catholics from Protestant agression often in the form of state sponsored repression during the early 1970's.

stovelid

gbh wrote:

Yes it was largely a political struggle to defend Catholics from Protestant agression often in the form of state sponsored repression during the early 1970's.

Off topic but the IRA must have kept this covert 'political' struggle aimed solely against Protestant aggressors under wraps in the early 70's? I'd never heard of it.

On topic - the last election showed exactly what a large portion of the electorate will choose if picking between unethical behavior and the their (electorate) own personal interests

gbh

Well you know the saying, War is politics by other means. The IRA were supported by a lot of people who in other circumstances would be considered moderates. The conditions and oppression of the time drove them to do what they did. If you were living up north at the time you might have done the same. But thats the past now.

is_that_so

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I realise that any negative comment on SF is routinely dismissed as "SF bashing" but in all the threads condemning Bad Bev and her Mayo supporters, there was just one mention of the fact that she hadn't been convicted of anything while a similarly unrepentant but convicted gunrunner was quietly re-elected in Kerry.

The Kerry people who voted for this demon (I may as well use the word as I'll be accused of demonising him!) are just the worst example of voters in a number of constituencies who show themselves ready to support wrongdoing.

I think it is a mixture of things

1. Love of the Irish stroke.

We all do it in large or smaller ways and tend to have a sneaking admiration for people who get away with it.

2. Ethics

This is a word in the dictionary that is subsumed by the above. We tend to be loose on definitions of hard things like ethics. There are really degrees of wrong and ethics only applies to the really bad ones.

3. Whimsy

Ah sure what did I do? It did no harm.


4. The Dublin "mejia"

Much as Lowry was lauded locally in the aftermath of his disgrace and promptly voted back in, Bev is much the same. The Dublin mejia/Dublin 4 is implicated in both.

5. The Yarn

We love someone with a bit of bare-faced cheek who can tell a good story, even if they might be lying.

CJ Haughey, P Flynn , Burke etc.

6. Local politics

All politics is local.

7. We just don't care enough.

Jackie laughlin

This is a bit off topic but some of the IRA guff needs a reply and I'll return to the topic in a bit. Have a look at the defence offered by the failed London terrorists who were convicted a couple of days ago. They too were into the, "I'm not really to blame" routine: "I fell in with extremists"; "If it hadn't been for the way muslims are treated, I wouldn't have done it"; "In another situation, I'd be a law abiding citizen". Complete bollocks of course but familiar to anyone who has had to listen to Irish terrorist talk.

No the level of support for immorality is straightforward. It is selective. Would a paedophile who might get a bridge built be elected? Certainly not! However, worse - a gunrunner - was. This, as I said, is plebiscite material. Low types putting hemselves forward for election and asking the question, "Who agrees that I did no wrong?" Agreement is expressed in a vote.

gbh

Don't see how talking about the IRA is off topic because this thread is about IRA members being voted and Bev being voted in by the electorate. First thing you should note about Irish elections is that they are not moral contests. Politics is about being effective and being able to act at the right time, nothing more, nothing less. This is why countries like France and Russia got rid of their kings, because they were relatively passive, had little interest in the people and let their countries go down the tube while patronising an elite. So the people vote for other people who they believe can most effectively represent them in the national parliament and sometimes who they vote for aren't perfect people.

The other point is that elections are an expression by people of their free will. No-one really has the right to tell another how to vote, although newspapers like the Sindo do try to influence others how to vote by criticising some candidates or parties and complementing others. However, the more you tell someone how you think they should vote the more likely it is they will vote the way they originally wanted because they believe its a matter of free will to vote for whoever they want, no matter what the past is of the candidate, with some exceptions of course.

Jackie laughlin

GBH,
You say that politics is not about morals and then go on to show that it is! People vote for candidates who represent their views. That's my point.

How those people form their views is another question. However, receiving an order or instruction seems unlikely. Trying to sway people is to be encouraged. I can't see any sane person voting in a way simply to spite someone they imagined was trying to convince them otherwise.

gbh

Jackie laughlin wrote:

GBH,
You say that politics is not about morals and then go on to show that it is! People vote for candidates who represent their views. That's my point.

How those people form their views is another question. However, receiving an order or instruction seems unlikely. Trying to sway people is to be encouraged. I can't see any sane person voting in a way simply to spite someone they imagined was trying to convince them otherwise.

Well from what I can see of politics its a dirty business and nice guys finish last. This is true about getting into government as it is about getting something small improved in your locality. Charlie Haughy was the master of 'persuading' others to get things done. But power corrupts as we all know so people in the end think they can do what they please once they have some power or are related to someone with power. I agree that it would be strange to vote just to spite another person but its undeniable that it is happening...look at Lowry, Flynn, etc...local people voting to spite the national media.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip,
That's the point. Significant numbers of voters APPROVE of wrongdoing. I don't believe any of the wriggling excuses, e.g. he/she is a good local rep. or we have an anti-authoritarian culture. That might be plausible in the case of some minor offence. It just won't wash to say, "I don't condone political violence but I'm prepared to vote for a gunrunner because he's a good local man." The offence is too big and alternative candidates too many for this to be remotely plausible. Face facts: in Kerry there is a considerable number of people who approve of their TD's murderous activities, while in Mayo a goodly number approve of helping people to cheat the rest of us. There's no need to carry on through the others.

These people standing for election create a plebiscite on their offences.

Yes but what is your point

A large number of people are not put off voting for Ferris despite the fact that they know full well his history. So what?

That is democracy.

This is not confined to Ireland it happens all over the world look at the UK Blair won an election after illegally invading and causing the deaths of thousands of people (far more than Ferris and his mates ever managed)

stovelid

Voipjunkie wrote:

Yes but what is your point

A large number of people are not put off voting for Ferris despite the fact that they know full well his history. So what?

That is democracy.

No offense but if I hear another lazy chorus of "this is democracy" in answer to reasonably disagreeing with/criticizing of voting behavior, I'll throw my laptop out the window.

Despairing of Ferris or BCF voter IS NOT a de facto rebuttal of their democratic rights.

It's as useful as folding your arms and saying 'Blair was elected by the people na-na-na-na" if somebody criticizes the Iraq deployment.

Voipjunkie

stovelid wrote:

No offense but if I hear another lazy chorus of "this is democracy" in answer to reasonably disagreeing with/criticizing of voting behavior, I'll throw my laptop out the window.

Despairing of Ferris or BCF voter IS NOT a de facto rebuttal of their democratic rights.

It's as useful as folding your arms and saying 'Blair was elected by the people na-na-na-na" if somebody criticizes the Iraq deployment.

Ok despair away but what is your point ? People should not vote for people you find unpalatable.
While you might think it is lazy to point out that we live in a democracy the constant whinging because the result was not the "right" one makes me want to throw your laptop out the window as well.:D

stovelid

Voipjunkie wrote:

Ok despair away but what is your point ? People should not vote for people you find unpalatable.

Throw your own laptop out

My point is that I think it's OK to disagree (even to the point of incredulity) with other voters without them (or others) resorting to the default democratic rights shtick.

If we were always so literal about dissenting (but ultimately respecting) other people's actions, this forum would be a boring place.

Jackie laughlin

I disagree with the political choice of the vast majority of my fellow citizens but that majority has not voted for a gunman or someone considerably less - but still - reprehensible.

FTA69

The thing you have continually failed to appreciate jackie, is the fact that the Republican Movement had a lot of support all over Ireland, and the experience that these communities went through led them to choose Republicans as their representatives. You might find it anathema that Ferris was elected, but that's your opinion and obviously the majority of those in North Kerry disagree with you. At least Ferris is upfront and open about his past, it was done not for selfish reasons and in pursuit of what he believed; unlike Flynn who was up to her neck in dodgy, greasy financial deals and she tried to brush it all under the carpet. Knowing Ferris I can say he is a man of integrity.

To be honest I can't understand your preoccupation with Sinn Féin, they are fully constitutional and are a threat to nobody bar the odd dissident Republican. Your only concern with them seems to be based on a war that's over 10 years.

Jackie laughlin

FTA69,
As an aside from this thread, yes, I do fear SF/IRA. An amnesty for all criminals might be worth talking about but I would argue against. I don't think that anyone is going to buy into a distinction between criminals who gained and criminals who didn't. Anyway, Bev merely got the usual terms and conditions for her job at the bank along with the other 18 people similarly employed. Like Ferris, she is unapologetic.

It is worth noting that a majority in Kerry did not vote for Ferris.

However, my point is that in voting for the likes of Ferris and Bev, voters express approval for wrongdoing. A quota does not make a candidate's actions moral. Rather, it gives some idea of the level of moral sentiment on an issue in a constituency.

FTA69

As an aside from this thread, yes, I do fear SF/IRA.

Why? The IRA has been completely neutered as a subversive force, Sinn Féin is aching to move toward the centrist platform and join a coalition. They are actively governing the Six Counties and have accepted a British police force. I wouldn't fear them anymore than I'd fear the Greens.

I don't think that anyone is going to buy into a distinction between criminals who gained and criminals who didn't.

But they do, by your logic Michael Collins was a criminal because he broke the law, but yet people recognise those who break the law for political reasons are somewhat different than those who do it for self gain.

It is worth noting that a majority in Kerry did not vote for Ferris.

Semantics. If you've a problem with that then you have a problem with the electoral process in general. The fact remains he has a democratic mandate and was returned by the people of North Kerry as one of their representatives.

voters express approval for wrongdoing. A quota does not make a candidate's actions moral. Rather, it gives some idea of the level of moral sentiment on an issue in a constituency.

But as I was saying it is only your opinion that Martin Ferris is or was immoral, obviously an opinion not shared by the people of North Kerry. You have no right to deem people "immoral" because of that.

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
I hope that I'm wrong about SF/IRA and that my closest friend is right; he believes that they will soldier on (no pun intended) for a few more years before being absorbed by FF. However, I've discussed this with you before on Boards and, as you know, I just don't buy this.

I do believe that Michael Collins was a murdering thug.

Bev's "work" in the bank brought her no particular gain. She very likely believes that she facilitated customers in doing right, i.e. avoiding tax. This is a political perspective.

My point about a minority in Kerry voting Ferris was merely to point out that the problem is not with a large number of voters. I support PRSTV.

Is all guilt a matter of opinion? I include Ferris here merely because to pillory Bev would be ridiculous while ignoring the far, far greater offence.

FTA69

I hope that I'm wrong about SF/IRA and that my closest friend is right; he believes that they will soldier on (no pun intended) for a few more years before being absorbed by FF.

They won't be absorbed, but they are seeking to become Fianna Fáil's adjutant in a coalition government in the hope of pan-nationalism and minor cosmetic changes in the social system. Of course most Sinn Féin activists on the ground are hoping for the Socialist Republic, but you can be sure that that's not on Gerry Adams' agenda.

I just don't buy this.

Fair enough, but I've half a decade's experience in SF, you haven't. I'm not trying to come across as patronising, but in that time I've formulated a relatively informed opinion on the subject and I can safely say that you'll be seeing a lot more Mary Lou types and a lot less Dessie Ellises in future. In another 2 or 3 years SF will be indistinguishable from any other parties. You may well have issues with their past, fair enough. But they most certainly aren't a threat (by your logic) now and they definitely won't be in the future.

I do believe that Michael Collins was a murdering thug.

Of course he was, he took part in the illegal and unmandated 1916 Rising. He then commanded an unlawful organisation which was having people whacked left, right and centre. A .45 round in the head of an RIC detective lying in bed splashed as much blood on the woman next to him as it did to the RUC man in 1992. The only question you have to ask yourself is why do people laud him and deride the likes of Ferris? And what was really the political alternative on offer during their lives? Whether you like it or not it often came down to either accepting Brit rule, or else resisting it, and that resistance inevitably led to violence, as is often the case when confronting an imperial power.

She very likely believes that she facilitated customers in doing right, i.e. avoiding tax. This is a political perspective.

Martin Ferris believed armed struggle against a British occupation was right, and that of course is also a political perspective; a political perspective that has been part of Irish life for centuries. Of course you will say that is also a moral (or lack of) perspective. But then many also believe that Flynn aiding tax evasion (I wouldn't call it "avoidance") was morally repugnant when that w*nker Haughey was telling us all "tighten our belts". The fact remains it all come down to opinion. My point was that Ferris has integrity, at least for the fact he was honest and proud of the actions which he believes were part of a liberation struggle, not shifty backroom tax evasion for the rich.

Jackie laughlin

I'm concerned about getting way off the thread. I'll confine myself to two brief points.

It is inconsistent to laud Collins and condemn Ferris.

Do you really believe that morality is just a matter of opinion, that there is no right and wrong - just different opinions? In this view all crime disappears. Moreover, your condemnation (which I share) of Bev and Haughey has no value.

lucernarian

As a Louth man, it embarasses me that the convicted criminal that Arthur Morgan is, got elected fairly handily.

Bev's sins are indeed relative. Her worst quality IMO is the self-righteousness she has, most likely got off her father P Flynn.

FTA69

Do you really believe that morality is just a matter of opinion, that there is no right and wrong - just different opinions?

Not on some absolute issues, but you can't apply a blanket moral criticism to something as complex as the IRA campaign, or any other deep political case for that matter.

TBC,

As a Louth man, it embarasses me that the convicted criminal that Arthur Morgan is, got elected fairly handily

Unlucky for you that Louth is a Republican county on the border then.

Jackie laughlin

While the offences are nothing like as serious, the moral complexity surrounding Bev is at least as great.

gbh

One person was trying to help defend catholics against state sponsored agression...the other was trying to hide money owed to the exchequer which could have been used to provide hospital beds for people on trollies in hospital corridors...make your own mind up who was the more patriotic and trying to help their fellow countrymen and women...its easy to say that this was right or that was wrong about the past. But unless you were at the center of those politics then you can't be so morally upright about it. Like i say politics has nothing to do with morality.

K-9

is_that_so wrote:

I think it is a mixture of things

1. Love of the Irish stroke.

We all do it in large or smaller ways and tend to have a sneaking admiration for people who get away with it.

2. Ethics

This is a word in the dictionary that is subsumed by the above. We tend to be loose on definitions of hard things like ethics. There are really degrees of wrong and ethics only applies to the really bad ones.

3. Whimsy

Ah sure what did I do? It did no harm.


4. The Dublin "mejia"

Much as Lowry was lauded locally in the aftermath of his disgrace and promptly voted back in, Bev is much the same. The Dublin mejia/Dublin 4 is implicated in both.

5. The Yarn

We love someone with a bit of bare-faced cheek who can tell a good story, even if they might be lying.

CJ Haughey, P Flynn , Burke etc.

6. Local politics

All politics is local.

7. We just don't care enough.

You've it the nail on the head. Who on this thread has not paid a childminder cash in hand, not paid a plumber/builder etc. cash to save the VAT element of the price thus saving our pockets but depriving the taxman, who has not done a wee bit of work in the evening and pocketed it?

It's on a smaller scale but is it right? I'm sure some have done everything above board but I'd say they are by far the minority.

Jackie laughlin

The question is would someone say, "I'm standing as a candidate for election and asking you to support me as someone who has operated in and approves of the black economy."? Now, if that person were elected, a quota of people could be said to have supported the black-economy candidate.

Ferris helped fill hospital beds. Bev helped people avoid paying their share towards hospital beds.

Incidentally, I'm quite tired of the bogus elitism which claims that because someone was not resident in Ulster in the last few decades, they are barred from comment. For the record, I have no involvement in off-shore tax schemes but I have a view on them. I have close (catholic, nationalist) friends who were subjected to an IRA gun attack in Belfast and completely unconnected I have received threats from SF/IRA for my views and I have a view on SF/IRA. There is a thread running here on chavez and I doubt if the contributors were near S. America.

FTA69

Incidentally, I'm quite tired of the bogus elitism which claims that because someone was not resident in Ulster in the last few decades, they are barred from comment.

True, I'm from Cork and I'm a Republican. We are allowed have opinions on whatever we want, especially those that occur in what is our shared country after all.

completely unconnected I have received threats from SF/IRA for my views

Like what? And if we want to talk about death threats I could stay on here all day, whether it be about threats from criminals or threats from the police. I'd be interested in hearing the nature of these "threats". (Which normally isn't the IRA's style I have to say)

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
I'm reluctant to identify myself as no one else does so here. Moreover, I remain afraid of SF/IRA. Their most serious threats against me were during one of the hunger strikes when my vote prevented an organisation publicly supporting the hunger strikers. My contributions to public meetings (e.g. residents assocs.) have frequently provoked threats. I was also threatened at an anti-war meeting. I am genuinely frightened by these people and wish that others would speak out against them but they don't. They approach me afterwards, tell me that they agree with me, and that they admire my courage. Bastard! I'm scared and I could do with public support.

The SF "style" is very much about using the IRA threat when required. It works!

FTA69

My contributions to public meetings (e.g. residents assocs.) have frequently provoked threats.

So you say, but as I said its neither SF's nor the IRA's style to threaten people at tenant meetings, how the subject of the IRA even came up in such a meeting is an interest in itself, most of the ones I've been to revolved around who's cutting the grass at the weekend. Your ones have obviously been more interesting! What I do find interesting though is that for all the threats and inferences of trouble to come, you're still in one piece.

I am genuinely frightened by these people and wish that others would speak out against them but they don't

But yet many people in deprived working areas used to vote for SF in large numbers and more often than not respected Republican activists for their community work.

The SF "style" is very much about using the IRA threat when required.

The only examples I've ever come across like that were when SF members were threatened by criminals/drug-dealers, in which case the IRA often made it clear that that behaviour wouldn't be tolerated. I've never even heard of a case in my area, or within the movement where people were threatened for giving out about Republicans.

Jackie laughlin

The subject would come up because I would bring it up. SF/IRA don't do community work; they attempt to set up parallell structures so that people will operate through them. They dispense rough justice to vandals, joy-riders etc and this is often appreciated by neighbours. I accept that their grip has been slipping the more they have to appear respectable.

The suggestion that threat is not their style is just plain bizarre.

I remain in good health because after these incidents, I take care and I'm an annoyance to them rather than a problem.