Dangerous Dogs ban (new thread)

alexdenby6

yeah

rugger

peasant wrote:

So is the amount of people who have a dog and still no clue ...unfortunately

I was just reading the comments on that topic, blood boiled within a few seconds- refrained from getting involved (fearing I'll get banned)

PEOPLE NEED TO BE EDUCATED!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

BeauZak

PEACEFUL DEMO will go ahead today to ask Dublin City Council to retract the ban and instead embark on a proper consultation process so that a real and effective solution can be found. This is not a solution.

This DEMO has been organised by Dog Training Ireland, we are supported by ANVIL Ireland www.anvilireland.ie We have also spoken to the DSPCA who have been working hard on this and the ISPCA. We have also received notification that VICAS (Veterinary Ireland Companion Animal Society) are against an outright dog ban.

We believe there will be a large turn out with plenty of press attention. But remember this ban is in place NOW and anyone living in Dublin City Council accommodation are subjected to this. Please read the statement sent to DTI yesterday from the Press Office. Note that existing and new tenants are included.

We do not have the space for these dogs to enter the pound system, it is unfair to expect dog wardens and the vets involved to work this.

Statement from DCC dated 12th July 2007
PRESS RELEASE 12th July, 2007.


From 1st July 2007 and in the interest of good estate management, Dublin City Council has introduced a ban on the following dog breeds or crosses of these breeds with other dogs, within their housing estates and flat complexes:

American Pit Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
English Pit Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Doberman Pinscher
German Shepherd (Alsatian)
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Japanese Akita
Japanese Tosa

The Council has a duty of care to all its tenants to ensure that they live in a safe environment. The ban on these breeds will be implemented through the Tenancy Agreement thereby including all existing tenants as well as all future tenants.

In the Dublin area since January 2007 there have been ten reported dog attacks on people, three of which were on children the youngest being three years of age. The dogs involved in these attacks were Bull Mastiff, Pit Bull Terriers, Japanese Akita, Rothweilers and German Shepherds. In the first six months of 2007 seventy-three banned dogs were surrendered by their owners and a further one hundred and sixty-nine were picked up as strays.


Ends.

Contact: Press Office, Dublin City Council 086 8150010

BeauZak

PEACEFUL DEMO will go ahead today to ask Dublin City Council to retract the ban and instead embark on a proper consultation process so that a real and effective solution can be found. This is not a solution.

This DEMO has been organised by Dog Training Ireland, we are supported by ANVIL Ireland www.anvilireland.ie We have also spoken to the DSPCA who have been working hard on this and the ISPCA. We have also received notification that VICAS (Veterinary Ireland Companion Animal Society) are against an outright dog ban.

We believe there will be a large turn out with plenty of press attention. But remember this ban is in place NOW and anyone living in Dublin City Council accommodation are subjected to this. Please read the statement sent to DTI yesterday from the Press Office. Note that existing and new tenants are included.

We do not have the space for these dogs to enter the pound system, it is unfair to expect dog wardens and the vets involved to work this.

Statement from DCC dated 12th July 2007
PRESS RELEASE 12th July, 2007.


From 1st July 2007 and in the interest of good estate management, Dublin City Council has introduced a ban on the following dog breeds or crosses of these breeds with other dogs, within their housing estates and flat complexes:

American Pit Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
English Pit Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Doberman Pinscher
German Shepherd (Alsatian)
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Japanese Akita
Japanese Tosa

The Council has a duty of care to all its tenants to ensure that they live in a safe environment. The ban on these breeds will be implemented through the Tenancy Agreement thereby including all existing tenants as well as all future tenants.

In the Dublin area since January 2007 there have been ten reported dog attacks on people, three of which were on children the youngest being three years of age. The dogs involved in these attacks were Bull Mastiff, Pit Bull Terriers, Japanese Akita, Rothweilers and German Shepherds. In the first six months of 2007 seventy-three banned dogs were surrendered by their owners and a further one hundred and sixty-nine were picked up as strays.


Ends.

Contact: Press Office, Dublin City Council 086 8150010

cr1272

Been following the coverage on the radio of this. I hope there is a big attendence at the demo today and that the weather doesn't affect it too much.

alexdenby6

look at the crap some people who think they know what theyre talking about say. i posted it up the other day to get signatures for the petition.

http://www.totalcoarsefishing.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1184182182;start=all

BeauZak

Thank You to Everyone. Next Demo will be a park area and on the weekend so we want hundreds of you to attend. Are ye on?

The following organisations attended. Please add yourself to the list if I have not included:


DTI
ANVIL Ireland
CALL
Dogs Trust
AFAR

Ashton Pound dog wardens were there but they only watched from a white van and did not participate. Gardai were there and the whole protest was covered on Mooney live so you can download that. Actually they commented as to how peaceful the demo was. No megaphones, no shouting just a peaceful gathering of lovely people and some really lovely dogs.

Check out the papers tomorrow. Specifically Indo and Times.

We made the following radio stations:

RTE1 (various programmes)
2FM Gerry Ryan
Newstalk
LMFM
BBC

And on TV
TV3
RTE1 (although I didn't see it)

Thanks again to everyone for their support!

bananatrees

It's hard not to get worked up over this issue, especially when you are a dog owner.
Even tonight I stumbled across a phone show and the presenter was saying how he couldn't believe how anyone could have a Rottweiler around children...
I grew up with one of these dogs by my side and have been thought about responsibility and respect of dogs.

Most seem to agree here that it is not the dog, it's the owner.
I have a Golden Retriever now who has never seen bad, she has never been treated poorly and I do not feel there is a bad bone in her, but a playful Golden Retriever could be as vicous as any other dog if it was treated badly and not thought respect and its place in the pack.

Currently for "Dangerous Breeds" you are supposed to microchip your dog, have a muzzle on it and have a lisence to own it. Why are these not being inforced?

Instead it is a case of uneducated people blanket banning dogs because of some irresponsile owners.

Basically its 'Rasicm' for dogs!

The sad thing is the way things are going it seems the mis-informed people outweigh the educated ones and I will be devestated if this country goes forward with this.

cowzerp

on fm 104 last night they told a girl she might as well get rid of her rotty now, she had said it was great with the kids and all people and they made her sound like a bad parent for having it around children-dont give your dogs up, they will be put down straight away or within 24hrs-these gimps should not be allowed talk crap like this without someone to defend the dogs-i tried to get on but the show ended! this rule will be changed so keep your dogs or you will regret it, also if they come knocking tell them to get a warrant as they cant just come into your home, even with the guards-then ask a friend to mind the dog temporarily-dont give in to these killers, and the dogs should not be talked about as dangerous either as this is building on the negative stereotype-they said last night that you never hear of westie's biting blah blah-this is not great news thats why-in the states rotties are the 2nd most kept dog after labs and they dont have the bad reputation like over here-my rotty is like a teddy bear-everyone loves him, he's just like my golden lab..

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote:

they said last night that you never hear of westie's biting blah blah-this is not great news thats why-in the states rotties are the 2nd most kept dog after labs and they dont have the bad reputation like over here-my rotty is like a teddy bear-everyone loves him, he's just like my golden lab..

Actually Paul, I've been bit by two dog's in my life.

First was a Jack Russell, a neighbours.

And my Mother's Westie, a right savage little cvnt. I swear to jesus, this thing is the devil himself. He'd try eat through iron gates to get at your Rottie.

Vinnie K

Mairt wrote:

Actually Paul, I've been bit by two dog's in my life.

First was a Jack Russell, a neighbours.

And my Mother's Westie, a right savage little cvnt. I swear to jesus, this thing is the devil himself. He'd try eat through iron gates to get at your Rottie.

That one couldnt have been the devil cause a ex of mine has one and the little fcuker is defo the devil, one of the worst tempered dogs ive ever come across, a cousin of mine has a little fluffy pomeranian and its not too far behind the westie in the devil himself list.
That whats really annoying me about this whole thing, its like there saying the only dogs that could ever bite are the one on that stupid list, and every other dog is ok!! Wake up and smell the coffe people!!!!!!!!!!
Hopefully the next protest will be on at the w/end so more can make it!!

cowzerp

cotton wrote:

As I've said before, I've 3 "dangerous x breeds" & one lovely golden lab. The lab is far the most grumpy one of the 4.

i've a rotty and a golden lab and there both great but the rotty is definetly more placid than the labrador-but labs are cute looking and will not sell papers if they bite people-every rottweiler bite gets headlines and its actually very rare-but because they can be used as guard dogs everyone thinks there all the same..

kashi

You know with GSD's being on the list, does this mean that they can't be used as guide dogs, or as police dogs anymore? I can't see the K9 unit in either the Gardai or in the army for that matter being too happy! (Sorry if I'm repeating a point!) I have to say, I would rather any of the "Dangerous dogs" to any little rat like mutt. I have no fear of the larger dogs, I have a happy respect of them. There is a difference. These people in "power" should confer with both experts and responsible owners. All it is, is a way to try and limit the risk of being sued. It has absolutley nothing to do with protecting the kids.

I have a GSD and I'm also pregnant with my first kid. I can think of no better dog to rear a child with. There is no way Kesh would harm a hair on a child. All he wants to do is play!


Maybe there should be something in the school curriculum about teaching children how to respect dogs. I work in a school, and sometimes a local dog comes in for the usual bits of sandwich or attention. It's worrying when you realise that children have no idea of how to behave around a dog. An actual dog trainer, say from the guide dogs or the gardai, teaching children not to approach a strange dog to boistrously may help. I do not endorse any child being attacked, but children do sometimes enjoy tormenting a dog. I've seen kids throw stones at, or deliberately try and hurt dogs. I certainly wouldn't blame the dog for trying to protect itself, it's called instinct!

Sane, unbiased education nationwide is the way to go. I know in England, it is very rare to see a stray dog, and I also know that the English take animal rights far more seriously than the Irish in general. It is something that will take time, but we can get there. Education would also help with the deathly fear some people of dogs. When walking my dog, he is always on a lead, and a short one at that. Yet there are people with much more aggressive "non-dangerous" dogs off leads. And when my dog barks at this threat to him, they look as if he is the devil. How would they feel if being confined they were threatened. You'd fight back too. Simple understanding of dog behaviour helps. I am no expert, but I know enough to know that all dogs should be respected (although cats are far more vicious!). Sorry for the blabbering.

Gillie

kashi wrote:

You know with GSD's being on the list, does this mean that they can't be used as guide dogs, or as police dogs anymore? I can't see the K9 unit in either the Gardai or in the army for that matter being too happy!

That's an excellent and obvious point that I never thought of!:eek:

noels little bu

:mad: :mad: I have been following all this ban on dangerous dogs stuff now for the past few days and i have to say that i am outraged that the council/government or whoever they are want to ban these dogs. i had a german shephard for 7 years till he sadly passed away last summer and i can honestly say that he was the most loyal and loving dog that i could ever have had. Now i have a jack russell and he is a night mare, he can be lovely one minute and the next he would eat you alive, so should i get him put down also???????????

My dad has a cross between a rottweiler and an akita and he is a baby of a dog. Sure he is big but is temperment is unreal, he hasnt got a nasty bone in his body. He is kept locked up secure and only gets out while on a lead and is musseled. So should he be put down??????????????

If you keep your dog undercontrol at all times and respect these breeds surely we shouldnt have any need for this ban.:mad: :mad:

Gillie

noels little bu wrote:

My dad has a cross between a rottweiler and an akita and he is a baby of a dog.

Wow. Any chance of a pic?

BeauZak

Ok there is a lot of confusion in the posts previous to this. Let me clarify.

Dublin City Council have, as of from 1st July banned their tenants from keeping the following breeds of dogs in their accommodation:

American Pit Bull Terrier
English Pit Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Doberman Pinscher
German Shepherd
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Japanese Akita
Japanese Tosa
And crosses of these breeds

This has been introduced and stands.

This will be enforced via the tenancy agreement between Dublin City Council and their tenants. So to reitterate this is not a dog warden issue (unless complaints of dangerous or nuisance dogs), this is an issue between DCC and their tenants. There is NO change in the control of dogs act legislation. This ban is not a new LAW or BYLAW.

Exemptions DO apply in areas of assistance dogs, guide dogs etc. DCC are not banning guide dogs even if they are on the list or assistance dogs if they are on the list. We have asked them this and they have confirmed this.

The dogs of the Garda Canine Unit and Guide dogs etc are exempt from the control of dogs act restrictions such as muzzling etc already. This is due to the fact that the dogs undergo extensive temperament testing and training to work with and around people of all personalities.

We just need to make sure that a NATIONWIDE BAN is not entertained. A nationwide ban would mean that all the breeds listed above and crosses of those breeds would be banned nationwide. Then the control of dogs act legislation would be changed to enforce this by law. Personally I cannot see this happening.

Various groups are working hard to come up with a solution and speaking with DCC. The best place to start is www.anvilireland.ie, get the right info, sign the petition and then think about a solution to the problem. And remember there is a problem but a blanket ban is simply not the solution.

I hope that helps clarify the situation.

Gillie

BeauZak wrote:

This is due to the fact that the dogs undergo extensive temperament testing and training to work with and around people of all personalities.

So if I was to put my GSD through this extensive training and testing would I be exempt?

Seems like double standards to me.
Maybe they could introduce a provisional license for dogs!:rolleyes:

Tammis

In a way i can see the two sides to this ban.
It comes from people who don't personally own any of these breeds of dogs.
But it laso stems from the fact that if any of these dogs were to turn they can possibly inflict more damage than a Jack Russell..In terms of life threatening injuries..
Possibly there should be a veto incurred on WHO can own these dogs?
A bit like a driving test?Or adoption(obviously not to the same extent....)
Most of the dogs listed have lovely dispositions, and are the same as any dog, but there is a slight difference between being snapped by a Lhaso Apso and a Dobermann!!
I have two dobermann myself and they are the most lovely animal,very sensitive and not at all agressive (British Standard, Continental Standard can be a bit snappy i'm told)they are extremely strong though and it probably is intimidating when they come racing towards you in the green!!We always keep our dogs muzzled in public, more to calm people than to stop the dogs from snapping:o
However i believe we break the rules by letting them loose in green public areas..They love other dogs,literally roll over for them, and don't pay any attention to children
No - One will try to take my dogs of me.
Its a s simple as setting rules for who can own these breeds and an examination of any mitigating circumstances and enforcing of the public safety rules.

Sorry this is so long!!

JarOfFlies

Can this ban be overturned?

kashi

Tammis wrote:

Possibly there should be a veto incurred on WHO can own these dogs?
A bit like a driving test?Or adoption(obviously not to the same extent....)
Most of the dogs listed have lovely dispositions, and are the same as any dog, but there is a slight difference between being snapped by a Lhaso Apso and a Dobermann!!

I agree that there could be some way of checking to see if the owners are capable of owning a dog on the list. I know in England if you take a rescue dog, the charity will interview you, and will even inspect your home to make sure you are able for the dog. Something along those lines could happen here if it were possible. Ideally for any breed of dog. I also agree that a smaller dog may not do much damage to an adult, but to a small child they can also kill. And t here are other breeds of medium and large dogs which could also kill or maim a child or adult (labrador or cocker spaniel). Some breeds are so inbred that there is a "rage" showing up in their personality. I don't claim to be an expert at all, but apparently aggressive dogs are becoming more prevelant and not necessarily in the "dangerous breeds".

I think people forget that most of those breeds are in fact bred to be working dogs, and they don't give them the training or "jobs" to do. So some dogs can get bored and restless. I do see the point that some people will make, that big dogs shouldn't be kept in small places, but if they are given enough exercise, attention and training then there shouldn't be a problem.

I think most people on this thread agrees, a lot of the problems come from the owners, not the dogs. This is what needs to be impressed upon the Council. Unfortunately, Cork Council are going to debate this issue in September too. Any suggestions of a way to get this view accross to the Counsillers? (And no I can't afford to bribe any of them!!!;)

BeauZak

So if I was to put my GSD through this extensive training and testing would I be exempt?

At the moment no because you are not a member of Garda Siochana or other group that is exempt.

This can be overturned. ANVIL have been invited to meet the DCC, so that is positive

As regards Cork County Councils debate. If you log onto www.anvilireland.ie site you can take and USE the info and points raised there. Also http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/news_demo_13072007_media.php for any of the points either I or Lisa raised on the radio and TV coverage and http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/news_demo_13072007.php for other Info that you can use.

Gillie

BeauZak wrote:

At the moment no because you are not a member of Garda Siochana or other group that is exempt.

I was being sarcastic but it would be totally acceptable to me if such a practice was in place!

BeauZak

I was being sarcastic but it would be totally acceptable to me if such a practice was in place!

Yeah I know And you would be amongst the many responsible dog owners who would be happy to do the same. The problem really is the "problem owners" who refuse to be part of the solution but who continue to cause problems for the majority of dog owners who are responsible. Which is why we shouldn't all be punished because of them.

Anyway this is something to keep an eye on. It will start with council properties, then move to council areas (parks, paths, beaches) and what next?

Hopesfall

And just when I thought that Ireland couldn’t get any more dog-unfriendly the Dublin County Council goes and issues a list of banned dogs and there is a severe threat of this going to become nationwide.

I really wonder where this anti-dog sentiment comes from. How come that dogs are still seen as a farm animal by most people rather than a companion and/or a member of the family.
It’s not only the fact that we have people issuing a list of banned dogs. There is also the issue of a complete lack of structure to make sure that dogs can be properly trained and socialised to make sure that they fit in well in any neighbourhood and are not seen as a threat.

These dogs are not “naturally” aggressive. People who claim they are, are people that should really start reading up and educate themselves on dogs and the different characters of dogs. These are probably people that would point out that these dogs are characterised as courageous, fearless and other characteristics that these people see as a threat.
What these people fail to notice and make note of is the fact that these dogs are also characterised as ideal family pets (yes indeed, educate yourself before dismissing these facts!).

So what does seem to be problem with these dogs?
Unfortunately these dogs still have an image that attracts the attention of such characters that most likely have not been able to finish any form of descent education (don’t want the start using the common terminology i.e.: kn***ers (damn done it again)). And therein lies the problem.

“Banning” is not solving the problem. It’s dismissing quite a lot of facts, let’s just close our eyes and the problem will disappear, of which one is that you do not have the opportunity to properly train and socialise your dog “on an ongoing basis” in our country. And I cannot stress enough how important this fact is! It’s not enough to give your dog a four week (so called) obedience training. Or one of the other trainings that we get offered here in Ireland. When will we FINALLY understand, just as they have realised practically all over the world, that a dog needs a point to socialise and train social behaviour on an ongoing basis. All over the world they have so called dog “schools” where you bring your dog weekly and on an ongoing basis, not just for four weeks.
Of course I do wonder though how much we would be charged (read: ripped off) for something like that in Ireland knowing that the four week courses cost up to 155Euro. While other Europeans are charged approximately 50Euro for a full year’s subscription to a dog school.

Why would this be part of the solution? Because as I said before, these dogs are not naturally aggressive they do not derive fun from being aggressive. And we need to control “who” gets their hands on these dogs. Yes the old cliché that it’s not the dog but the owner that’s the problem. Some other European countries have put these dogs on a “dangerous dog breed” list, although I still do not agree with the terminology, it’s better than “banning” dogs . People that would like to acquire one of these dogs will have to proof that the dog is kept in proper conditions (these dogs need family integration and not to be locked up outside in a pen) and that the dog attends dog school on a frequent basis and is therefore socialised properly. These dogs are also “micro-chipped” and every dog that the police stops that is on the list and is not micro-chipped will be confiscated.
I can hear all the sceptics already yelling “who’s going to pay for all of that!?”. Well… the dog owner! This is again another way to prevent that these dogs end up in the wrong hands. You want a dog that’s listed, proof you’re up for it and willing to endure the extra costs it brings with it! And not just some knobhead that doesn’t know his arse from his elbow and just wants a dog like that because he can’t grow enough hair on your chest.

Let me just briefly come back on the issue of some dogs being excluded from family live and being locked up in pens outside.
This kind of brings me back to the idea in Ireland that it’s “OK” to keep dogs outside in a pen. It’s OK for “some” dogs to be kept outside in a pen but most certainly not all breeds. If that’s what you want make sure that the dog you’re getting is suitable for it, not all breeds are. There are a couple of different reasons for this. Some are purely down to the physical build of the dog and some are more psychological. It is NOT healthy for all breeds to be outside, some dog breeds do not fare well in our cold humid climate being outside all the time. Other dogs need to be integrated in a family life as they thrive on being part of a pact (your family) and need constant love and care . Strangely enough most of the dogs put on this Banned Dog List issued by DCC are part of the latter group and some are even part of both.
What’s the relevance of this? The fact that some people hold these dogs purely as an image thing, for parading them among their other macho and brainless friends, excluding them from being part of a pact and not exposing them to any form of socialising can turn these dogs bitter.

Looking at the whole issue from a statistical point of view (please note, to this date there has been NO proper dog bite statistic published in Ireland. Some are in the making but none have been published yet. So data is taken from other recourses). Statistically speaking the Golden Retriever, Labrador and Dalmation are accountable for the majority (almost 77%) of dog bites all over Europe.
Yes, the fact is that if one these so called dangerous dogs do attack the consequences are more severe and can be lethal. But let’s put this into perspective. Fatal bites constitute less than 0.00001% (yes I’ve checked the 0’s and they’re right) of all dog bites annually. This figure is based on roughly 8 million dog bites. Fatal bites have remained relatively constant over time, whereas nonfatal bites have been increasing.
What does this tell us? These banned dogs are not as “aggressive” as people (like to) think. And although bites are more severe and more suitable for media coverage (sensationalism) the amount of these dogs biting are nearly nihil (0.00001%).
The contrary is even true. These dog’s “bite threshold” is a lot higher than for example a Golden Retriever, Labrador, Dalmation and other (more likable) breeds.
Little know fact is that there have been fatalities recorded caused by breeds such as Dachshunds, Yorkshire Terriers and Labrador Retrievers.
So shall we just ban all dogs!? While we’re at it, let’s ban children as well as they have the “potential” to grow up and become a murderer. Does the latter sounds absolute ridiculous? Indeed, and that’s exactly how ridiculous it sounds to ban dogs that have the “potential” of being dangerous.

These dogs shouldn’t be banned! It should be regulated who can own a dog like that and there should be alot more facilities provided to train and socialise your dog on a weekly basis (preferably without being ripped off… but hey, it’s Ireland after all).

JarOfFlies

This looks promising;

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dog-activists-muzzle-council-breeds-ban-plan-1043119.html

Not great news, but it's a start

alexdenby6

we'll get there. does anyone know if theres a demo organised soon, theres nothing on anvil's website and nothing on dti.

golden

The DCC has an awful lot to answer for. I have seen a link to Ashton Pound and apparently there is alot of surrendered/dumped GSD due to their generalisation that all dogs from a "dangerous breed" are dangerous.

And they say dog is mans best friend and thats how they are treated!!.

The website is www.dogsindistress.org

Sonnenblumen

Banning will not solve the problem, but it's a start. Let DCC get started within its own remit and sort out the working class heroes first. Other councils can follow later with similar bans nationwide extending to all public areas.

JarOfFlies

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Banning will not solve the problem, but it's a start. Let DCC get started within its own remit and sort out the working class heroes first. Other councils can follow later with similar bans nationwide extending to all public areas.

....what?