The Rules of Golf

One Cold Hand

Hello All,
This is an attempt to add an extra dimension to this forum. The majority of discussions on here relate to new equipment and different courses, which is fair enough. I'm proposing a discussion on rules. Hopefully this will be of interest to seasoned golfers and also of help to beginners.

I have a series of questions and answers on the rules of golf. As we all know these are sometimes long and complicated. My idea was that I post a question and hopefully this will get a discussion going. After a few days I will post the answer and a new question. BTW I'm not claiming to be any sort of authority on this subject, I just have a series of Q&A's from an outside source (which I in no way stand over!) so feel free to ridicule my answers!

Anyway here's the first one:

Your ball comes to rest close to a staked tree and it impedes your swing.
1. Are you entitled to free relief from the tree?
2. If yes, how do you go about taking your relief?

Mister Sifter

Without looking up google or whatever i'll have a stab at this.

I'd take relief of between one and two club lengths no nearer to the hole.

stick a tee peg in the ground where the ball had came to rest. measure out two club lengths and stick another tee peg in the ground. then drop the ball between these two points away from the tree. If the balls rolls closer to the hole i'd drop again. If it keeps happening for three drops, i'd then place the ball.

Great idea for a thread by the way.

One Cold Hand

Yeah, don't google it, it's no fun otherwise.

stringy

tee peg goes down where you have full swing relief, then you drop within a club length

no penalty

BrianD3

You are not entitled to free relief from a staked tree unless it says so in local rules. If you are entitled to relief it will probably be a one clublength drop not nearer the hole.

FlutterinBantam

Ok ..this is the correct ruling...

Check first if you are entitled to free relief under local rules.

If yes.... select the nearest point of relief ,not nearer the hole,where the tree does not interfere with your stance or swing.

You have one club length from that point.


ok.

FlutterinBantam

You are playing a stroke play competition and you are searching for your ball in thick rough.

You stand on a ball and move it about 4 inches. on inspection you discover it's yours!!

Is there a penalty??

Is so what penalty??

What procedure sjould you use

Par72

I would guess that there is a one shot penalty and you must replace the ball in it's original location.

madds

Would it not be more useful to add any subsequent questions about golf rules to One Cold Hand's original thread? That way, the mod can sticky it and we have one thread containing explanations/discussions of various golf rules?

I believe this was the original intention of One Cold Hand's thread, as well as providing a new discussion point.

One Cold Hand

Maybe they can be merged?

RuggieBear

merged.:)

My knowledge of the rules of golf suck.:(

slumped

www.randa.org - use their interactive quiz.

stringy

FlutterinBantam wrote:

You are playing a stroke play competition and you are searching for your ball in thick rough.

You stand on a ball and move it about 4 inches. on inspection you discover it's yours!!

Is there a penalty??

Is so what penalty??

What procedure sjould you use

2 options
if a player moves the ball in deep rough ("abnormal ground conditions") the player can replace the ball without penalty. alternatively the player can drop within one club length of its original location no nearer the hole without penalty

FlutterinBantam

An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.



Quoted from R&A rule book.

Would appear heavy rough does not qualify

One Cold Hand

Yeah I'm pretty sure abnormal ground conditions don't include heavy rough. After all, the course manages and cuts the rough, whereas casual water it has no control over.
If you could drop a clublength back, a situation could arise where you could drop out of the rough and into semi-rough / fairway.

stringy

ok when I mean heavy rough, I'm talkin, knee high stuff, not the stuff off the fairway.

eg the heaviest rough on the Monty in Carton House, you could easily walk on your ball and move it

Ok I see the definition in the R&A but common sense should also prevail

FlutterinBantam

yes I know what you mean.

What I want to know what the penalty is ,if any, if that happens???.

I'm not sure myself.

I would lean towards one shot penalty and replace the ball as near as poss to its original position,but there could be a school of thought which classifies the ball as "lost" until it is actually identified and no penalty accrues and the ball is replaced in its original position.

If somebody else walks on the ball its a free drop as far as i know.

One Cold Hand

FlutterinBantam wrote:

yes I know what you mean.

What I want to know what the penalty is ,if any, if that happens???.

I'm not sure myself.

I would lean towards one shot penalty and replace the ball as near as poss to its original position,but there could be a school of thought which classifies the ball as "lost" until it is actually identified and no penalty accrues and the ball is replaced in its original position.

If somebody else walks on the ball its a free drop as far as i know.

Yeah I'd say if you move it it's a shot penalty and replace it in it's original position. Basically you can identify the ball without moving it, ie rotating it, so you wouldn't get away with the 'lost until identified' arguement.
If someone else moves it, no penalty is incurred, but it's not a drop, the ball has to be replaced as close as possible to the original position.

TheDoc

Standing on the ball in thick rough can be replaced without penalty if all players agree to the original location of the ball. It can be dropped there.

I had to call for a ruling after this happend in a matchplay in St Annes father and Son. The organiser rang GUI and came back to us and said there is no shot penalty just replaced.

Heres an interesting one. Matchplay in Corrstown I think. I dont know the people involved but have heard the story numerous of times. Club matchplay fourball I think. Some young kid of 5 or something with his dad playing two older gentleman. The father and son are like 3 down after 3. And on the 4th tee box the kid asks one of the gentleman how many clubs hes carrying. He replies 14.

The young fella replies..." are you sure, count again" after numerous countings and everyone counting 14 except the kid, he replies " your ball retriever, counts as a club in matchplay" He called the hole and strolled down the fairway. NOW the father of the sun says the GUI were contacted and they didnt hear an outcome.

But i think this is the most farcical thing ive ever heard im suprised the young fella didnt get a smack. There is no way that is a ruling.

madds

Little pup.

AndyP

Just to clarify the rough issue, rough does not exist in the Rules, it is all considered 'through the green', i.e no special rules exist for ball in the rough as opposed to a ball on the fairway.

One Cold Hand

Well anyway heres the full answer to the original question. I most of ye got it pretty much right. The important thing to remember is that you only get relief from a staked tree (or any other immovable object) if it is stated in the local rules.

The correct way to take relief from a staked tree (Or any immovable obstruction) is to:
• Address the ball with the club you would play if the tree was not there, and edge away (normally sideways to the direction of play) swinging the club in the normal way until the tree and it’s stake no longer interferes with your swing or stance, then place a tee marking the position of the club head. (You may well have to do this both to the left and to the right).
• You now will probably have now have two tees in the ground one to the left and one to the right of the ball, one of these by definition will be closer to the ball, this point and only this point is “The nearest point of relief” (You cannot decide to go back towards the fairway as against into some heavy rough, indeed the nearest point maybe in a bush if so hard luck.)
• Having decided which point is “the nearest point of relief” you can then take out your driver or any other club and measure one club length from the tee and put a second tee (2) in the ground.
• You have now defined the area in which the ball must be dropped a semi circle of ground defined by the tee “ at the nearest point” and the tee (2).
• Once the ball when dropped hits the ground inside the area it becomes in play and must be played from where it comes to rest with these provisos
Note 1 - If it rolls closer to the hole than the area it must be redropped for free.
Note 2 - If it rolls into a hazard or onto the green it must be redropped for free.
Note 3 - However provided it rolls backwards it can roll up to 2 club lengths from the point it hits the ground before you are entitled to re-drop it. (This last point has often caught out the unwary).



And here's another question to pick your brains...

John and Joe are standing on the first tee, ready to start their singles match. John suggests to Joe that as the greens have just been "hollow tined"and suggests that "give" any putts within 18" of the hole. Joe agrees. Can the players do this?

TheDoc

if its a friendly match yes, if its a competition no, the game must be played out by competition rulings.

Many clubs have locals rules that on temp greens or severely refurbished greens that putts that lie within a certain distance are giving, or that you have a certain amount of putts before its given.

One Cold Hand

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

if its a friendly match yes, if its a competition no, the game must be played out by competition rulings.

Just to clarify, it's a singles matchplay match (in competition).

FlutterinBantam

I would say no as players cannot agree to disregard a rule of golf.

FlutterinBantam

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

if its a friendly match yes, if its a competition no, the game must be played out by competition rulings.

Many clubs have locals rules that on temp greens or severely refurbished greens that putts that lie within a certain distance are giving, or that you have a certain amount of putts before its given.

Hmmm wouldnt say its a local rule maybe players in friendly matches agree such procedures,but local rule...never heard of that

stringy

No.

Only on each hole do they have the option to "give" the putt

GreeBo

One Cold Hand wrote:

Note 1 - If it rolls closer to the hole than the area it must be redropped for free.
Note 2 - If it rolls into a hazard or onto the green it must be redropped for free.
Note 3 - However provided it rolls backwards it can roll up to 2 club lengths from the point it hits the ground before you are entitled to re-drop it. (This last point has often caught out the unwary).

You only drop it twice, after the second time you place it on the spot it first touched the course on the second drop.
I constantly see players break this one.

It doesnt have to roll backwards, just no closer to the hole than it was when you took relief.

One Cold Hand

One Cold Hand wrote:

John and Joe are standing on the first tee, ready to start their singles match. John suggests to Joe that as the greens have just been "hollow tined"and suggests that "give" any putts within 18" of the hole. Joe agrees. Can the players do this?

Sorry mean't to give the answer to this before now, but most of ye knew it anyway.

Consessions cannot be agreed in advance in matchplay.

Had John and Joe played under this agreement then both should be disqualified under 1-3. Under rule 2-4 the only stroke which can be conceded is the "next stroke" and it cannot be conceded in advance.

One Cold Hand

Another one:

A player on the tee of a dog-legged hole decides to play across the out of bounds. When he arrives at his ball he finds that he is "in play" but his swing is impeded by an Out Of Bounds post. The player then removes the stake. Before he plays his next stroke, his co-competitor suggests that he thinks that the player may be in breach of a rule in removing the post. The player then replaces the post in exactly the same position from where he removed it. Has the player incurred a penalty?

AndyP

I would say yes, probably 2 strokes.

BrianD3

I think the OOB post would count as a movable obstruction, therefore can be moved without penalty. If the post is cemented into place then it would be an immovable obstruction and you'd be entitled to a free drop.

edit: having googled this I now believe that what i've written above is incorrect

copacetic

yeah, pretty sure OOB posts can't be moved. However moving it and then replacing it without playing a stroke? Not sure if that is a penalty.




edit: apparently it is, but it's one of those 'stupid' rules.

AndyP

I would imagine it is to do with the old concept where 'out of bounds' was the course boundary and not the current trend of internal OOB. The rule was probably put in place to prevent players from removing fences surrounding the course (and probably keeping the sheep out).

Thats my take on it anyway.

copacetic

could be that, and actually now that I think of it, when there is no white line the OB is a straight line between the posts, so the idea may be that people just can't move them at all so the temptation isn't there to move the post a little to bring your ball back into play..

FlutterinBantam

Out of bounds posts cannot be moved...

Orion

OOB posts are classifed as oob themselves and not movable (or immovable) obstructions iirc. You can move hazard posts but not oob ones.

Orion

Can I ask one too or is that reserved

A player's ball is resting on a bridge over a water hazard. In taking his stance he grounds his club. Does this constitute grounding the club in a hazard and, if so, what is the penalty?

AndyP

The hazard is not just ground level, it points vertically upwards so I would imagine the penalty is one stroke.

One Cold Hand

Yes hazard is defined as anywhere inside the boundary line, not necessarily in the water. So yes, I would imagine that a bridge is part of the hazard, and grounding the club is not allowed.

Orion

Sorry guys. Wrong answer . The bridge is actually classed as an obstruction and your club is allowed to touch an obstruction even if you're in a hazard. This is not a theoretical question either - it happened to Westwood in Wentworth ... twice! John Paramour was with him as the group referee. Technically it is part of the hazard as well so no removing loose impediments but touching it is fine.

Here's the R&A article.

FlutterinBantam

:eek: I did not know that!!

FlutterinBantam

Im playing a par three, slash a four iron down to the apron of the green.

Ball makes a pitch mark OFF the green and my ball comes to rest behind this mark.

I would like to putt.. am I allowed to "repair" the "pitch mark".

NO is my decision????

Anyone

denachoman

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Im playing a par three, slash a four iron down to the apron of the green.

Ball makes a pitch mark OFF the green and my ball comes to rest behind this mark.

I would like to putt.. am I allowed to "repair" the "pitch mark".

NO is my decision????

Anyone

No is correct as far as I know.

And even if your ball made a pitch-mark ON the green and finished off the green you are not allowed to repair the pitchmark your ball made until after you play your ball onto the green.

BrianD3

My initial reaction would be to say no unless there was something in the local rules about plug marks.

fullstop

denachoman wrote:

No is correct as far as I know.

And even if your ball made a pitch-mark ON the green and finished off the green you are not allowed to repair the pitchmark your ball made until after you play your ball onto the green.

Rule 16-1c,
Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the
putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not
the player’s ball lies on the putting green.

You are allowed repair a pitchmark on the green if you are off.

PhilipMarlowe

Yes you can repair a pitch mark on the green AT ANY TIME, whether you are on the green or not, but not on the fringe like in the question....
However, if you hit your shot onto the fringe, and I hit mine just inside yours, making a pitch mark on the fringe, you would be able to repair this mark (mine) as it happened after your ball came to rest.

Orion

You are not allowed improve your lie or the line of your shot when off the green. This happened to Harrington a couple of years ago - can't remember where. He bent down to repair a pitchmark and noticed that the grass was too long - he'd thought he was on the green but was on the fringe. He called the penalty himself.

Orion

Here's another one I read in Golf Monthly a good while ago. Two players in matchplay complete a hole. On the next tee box Player A takes a practice putt on the teeing area. What is the penalty, if any?

denachoman

fullstop wrote:

Rule 16-1c,
Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the
putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not
the player’s ball lies on the putting green.

You are allowed repair a pitchmark on the green if you are off.

Yes you are allowed to repair old pitch marks on the green, whether you are on it or off it. The point I was making is that you cannot repair the pitch mark your ball has just made on the green (this is not an old pitchmark) unless your ball has come to rest on the green. If your ball finishes off the green you must play your ball onto the green before repairing the pitch mark it made.

One Cold Hand

Macros42 wrote:

Here's another one I read in Golf Monthly a good while ago. Two players in matchplay complete a hole. On the next tee box Player A takes a practice putt on the teeing area. What is the penalty, if any?

I know your allowed to take a practice shot between holes. What I'm not too sure about is the definition of 'between holes'. Generally you have only started the next hole when you tee off on it (certainly if your calling a penalty on someone on any given hole you only have to call it before they tee off on the next hole), so I would say that this is allowed, assuming that the practice putt is taken before the drive.

Incidently some auld lad in the club was trying to tell me that taking practice putts between holes is perfectly legal in strokeplay competitions also. As far as I was concerned it wasn't, did anyone hear otherwise.