Dune by Frank Herbert

Lexus1976

I purchased this book last year. Planning on reading this this evening. What is your verdict on this book?

lsedov

A friend of mine frequently rants about it as one of the best SF books ever. Not hugely into SF myself, so couldn't say. But I definitely plan on reading it, if not because it's a classic, just to shut my friend up!

Tree

it's fantastic, one of my favourite SF works, have the entire series, first book is prolly the best one but it's still great series.

Maybe ask more questions in the scifi/fantasy forum?

Andy-Pandy

This is the book that got me hooked on reading, its amazing.

Zaph

Andy-Pandy wrote:

This is the book that got me hooked on reading

Strangely enough, me too.

rain on

Started reading it ages ago and got distracted by other stuff about halfway through, but it was pretty good if you like that kind of thing. Must finish it actually.

super_furry

It's alright. Don't think it's aged very well and while it may have been ground-breaking in it's day, it's pretty average now.

ixoy

Excellent series - enjoyed both trilogies. It's not a fast burner, tending towards philosophy in parts. The world of Arrakis is very well realised and, if it seems familiar, it's only because so much else has copied it (in an inferior way).

Sure it must be good - it's responsible for my boards username!

pwd

It's a fantastic book. I read it three times I think, at different ages, and enjoyed it on different levels each time. One of the best books I've read.

The two series are very good but the original is the best.

theCzar

ixoy wrote:

Sure it must be good - it's responsible for my boards username!

As a matter of interest.. who or what is Ixoy? I know of the technology planet Ix...

I've read the first three books, and while the first is the best, with the second two not really being good stand alone novels, I loved the crux of the series on the cyclical nature of power, how power breeds weakness while oppression and hardship breed strength leading to inevitable role reversal with no prospect of balance.

The first novel is one of my favourites ever, but I would likely never have known it if not for the game Dune II: Battle for Arrakis, which lead to a lifetime of strategy gaming addiction as well as greater literary scope. Wow!

Hell I even like the movie, but only because I'm thinking of the book. And Sean Young.

nesf

Ioxy is absolutely spot on in my opinion. So much of the "classics" have been plundered so completely that they can seem decidedly mediocre at first glance. When you put start putting those works within the context of their times and contemporaries then you can begin to appreciate why they were so good/influential/etc.

It's similar with a lot of music.

ixoy

theCzar wrote:

As a matter of interest.. who or what is Ixoy? I know of the technology planet Ix...

You're on the right track. My original username used to Ixianboy because as a boy I wanted to be Ixian given that they were the last holders of technology in that universe.
A few years went on and I was a little tired of the nick when I signed up to a new forum, so I shortened it to ixoy. I still use the original - ixianboy - for MSN.

When you put start putting those works within the context of their times and contemporaries then you can begin to appreciate why they were so good/influential/etc.

Exactly. When I read of the Aes Sedai in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" I think of another order of matriarchs who wish to manipulate empires - the Bene Gesserit. When I saw the giant worm rise up in "The Empire Strikes Back", I think of the sandworms that produce the spice. Yet if I saw those other sources first, I might (mistakenly) believe that "Dune" was unoriginal, copying others around it.

It's nice to see that "Dune" has occasionally permeated itself elsewhere too. For example in "The Simpsons", Lisa heats a very spicy dinner and suddenly proclaims: "I can see through time" Or in "Earthworm Jim", Jim's sidekick uses the "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.." mantra before transforming. I'm sure there's other examples of it that I'm unaware of.

theCzar

ixoy wrote:

For example in "The Simpsons", Lisa heats a very spicy dinner and suddenly proclaims: "I can see through time"

rofl. That's a great line

nesf

ixoy wrote:

Exactly. When I read of the Aes Sedai in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" I think of another order of matriarchs who wish to manipulate empires - the Bene Gesserit. When I saw the giant worm rise up in "The Empire Strikes Back", I think of the sandworms that produce the spice. Yet if I saw those other sources first, I might (mistakenly) believe that "Dune" was unoriginal, copying others around it.



It's nice to see that "Dune" has occasionally permeated itself elsewhere too. For example in "The Simpsons", Lisa heats a very spicy dinner and suddenly proclaims: "I can see through time" Or in "Earthworm Jim", Jim's sidekick uses the "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.." mantra before transforming. I'm sure there's other examples of it that I'm unaware of.

A clever trick of writing will only ever really wow you the first time you read it. Clichés are only clichés if you've seen them before, it can take a quite a while and a lot of reading before you can begin to actually start putting writers in context. When I first started reading fantasy and science fiction everything was new to me. I certainly gave some authors far more credit than they were deserving of when I first read them but over time you begin to see the "mainstream" influences and get a better feel for things.

Sometimes, both with music and books, it can be very enlightening to delve into some of the influences of an author/musician that you really like. It is also quite a good way to "spider" your reading further into a genre. Following a chain of ideas or concepts back along a string of authors can be a very enjoyable experience. For example, at the moment I'm getting into "The Black Company" by Glen Cook because I really like Steven Erikson's Malazan series for that reason. Cook has been on my "to read" list for many years admittedly so he's not a true unknown for me but it's still quite interesting to watch two authors applying similar concepts in different settings and styles etc. It's roughly analogous to hearing two different interpretations of the same classical piece by two great composers or musicians. By listening to both you end up getting a better appreciation for the skill and insight involved than had you just listened to only one of them.

FionnMatthew

ixoy wrote:

Excellent series - enjoyed both trilogies. It's not a fast burner, tending towards philosophy in parts. The world of Arrakis is very well realised and, if it seems familiar, it's only because so much else has copied it (in an inferior way).

Or it could seem familiar because Herbert drew his influences from a wide range of literary, philosophic and scientific sources.

For instance, anyone who reads Oedipus the King, and notes the bit where Oedipus, now blinded, is to be led out into the desert, might recall that the same happens in Dune Messiah, and then you might be inclined to compare the play as a whole to Herbert's plot, with fruitful results. You might then go back, and look at general Greek mythology, and discover how much Herbert incorporates the classics.

So much of the language and culture in Dune is lifted straight from Indian, Arabic and Native American culture. The philosophies found in the book are borrowed from Chinese and Zen Buddhism, the Koran, ancient Indian philosophy, and from the relativistic turn of theoretical physics in the 20th century.

Recently, I watched David Lean's epic, Lawrence of Arabia, which is, by the way, a fantastic movie, and I realised just how much of Herbert's basic story in Dune is drawn from the life of T.H. Lawrence. I recommend that any fan of Dune see this movie.

Afterwards, following that up on the internet, I found this page, which is a really interesting, informed and literate catalogue of some of Herbert's primary influences. It's really informative, and I'd check it out.

OP, I'll add my voice to the clamour. Dune is an excellent book, and deserves a lot of the hype it gets. It is certainly one of the most popular SF sequences of the 20th century, and while there are others that deserve, perhaps, as much recognition, Dune cannot be faulted for being popular. It's stylistically idiosyncratic; it's a unique blend of diverse influences; it points outward into philosophy, politics, religion, ecology, etc.; read just as a "child becomes super-hero novel", it's bloody excellent, and much better in that vein than the Star Wars trilogy, if you ask me; and most of all, it's really strange. There's nothing substitutes for me the feeling of becoming accustomed to an artefact so strange as Dune; the way it's written, the situations, people, places it describes, which are initially so confusing, but when you grasp them, open up new dimensions to even seemingly mundane happenings, and you think to yourself: "that's so cool, I didn't realise you could do that in a book."

It really is a worthwhile read, and will withstand rereading. Read it before you see the screen adaptations, whether the SciFi Channel's miniseries or the 80s Lynch version.

theCzar

That's a great link, cheers.

Earthhorse

ixoy wrote:

It's nice to see that "Dune" has occasionally permeated itself elsewhere too...I'm sure there's other examples of it that I'm unaware of.

In Fatboy Slim's "Weapon of Choice" the sampled vocal is from Lynch's Dune - "If you walk without rhythm, you won't attract the worm". The inscription on my brother's ipod is "Walk without rhythm". Pretty geeky.

I love that Simpson's line. Never made the connection with Dune before though.

Personally, I think "God Emperor of Dune" is the best of the lot. It's more obviously philosophical than the rest, which I think is why.

Zaph

Earthhorse wrote:

Personally, I think "God Emperor of Dune" is the best of the lot. It's more obviously philosophical than the rest, which I think is why.

To me that's where the rot sets in. The first three books are great, but the final three descended into a lot of quasi-mystical nonsense which made them a bit of a chore to read. If I ever re-read the series I'll stop after Children of Dune.

Earthhorse

I agree that the last two were a chore to read but not God Emperor.

Just goes to show the books in the series are not formulaic and worth a look.

FionnMatthew

zaph wrote:

To me that's where the rot sets in. The first three books are great, but the final three descended into a lot of quasi-mystical nonsense which made them a bit of a chore to read. If I ever re-read the series I'll stop after Children of Dune.

Quasi-mysticism? I think it's the opposite. I think he gives perhaps too much concrete information about the machinery of the Dune universe, albeit a little bit on from the Dune timeline, than he should.

But I think God Emperor stands apart from both the first trilogy and the last two books.

And the last two books are different, but intriguing in their own way. There's still some of the old thrill in them, like in the bit where Teg speeds up his body. That was really cool.

I haven't read any of the Brian Herbert stuff, where he finishes off the unfinished sequence. Has anyone? Are they any good?

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

theCzar wrote:

but I would likely never have known it if not for the game Dune II: Battle for Arrakis, which lead to a lifetime of strategy gaming addiction as well as greater literary scope. Wow!

Haha...me too I saw the film after playing Dune II, and then I finally read the books after that...the complete reverse order to do things in I'm sure

Dune is most certainly my favourite book...as for Brian Herbert's additions...well he claims to have based them on conversations with his father and on some of his unpublished manuscripts..and perhaps it's a bit unfair because I'm only basing my opinion on one chapter that was prereleased ahead of the book, but I think it removes everything that made Dune great, and replaces it with straight-forward space opera style writing and storylines...the Butlerian Jihad, which I had always imagined in my mind as a more subtle struggle against machines slightly analogous to technology's control over civilization today, turns out to be in the prequels a more mundane Terminator/Matrix style "us vs. the machines" battle...I don't know, maybe that's someone's cup of tea (it'd be mine if this wasn't the Dune universe we were talking about) but for me...I'm just going to pretend his novels never existed.

Shadowless

It's funny, I'm actually reading these at the minute. I flew throught the first one and really enjoyed it but I'm really struggling with Dune Messiah. It just hasn't gripped me at all. I've only 20 pages to go and I'll prob finish it tonight but it's boring the pants off me. I'm hoping Children of Dune is a return to form.

nesf

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote:

Haha...me too I saw the film after playing Dune II, and then I finally read the books after that...the complete reverse order to do things in I'm sure

The order I did it in was game, books and then the film.

silvine

Children of Dune is a bit better but like most the sequels it's not a patch on the original.

Personally, I felt the series went a little up its own arse as it went on. The sequels do not have the same readability and enjoyment factor, that the first does. They are worth a look if Dune/sci-fi is your thing but I'd only really describe the original as an essential read.

Great games though. We'd have no Command and Conquer without Dune!

FionnMatthew

It's better to look on the sequels not as sequels but as essays in the themes of Dune - things he hadn't explore fully - giving the focus more to one thing than another.

Don't expect them to match or top the first novel. Everything Herbert writes is its own thing. It needs to be considered in isolation. Each of the novels in the Dune sequence is excellent in its own way - you just need to find out what way it needs to be read - be sensitive to it - the same way Paul, in the first book, reflects on the attitude of openness to learning, of resting in the knowledge of one's ability to learn.

RE: Brian Herbert. I feared as much. I heard somewhere, however, that the prequels he wrote, with some other chap whose name I'm not bothered to googlerecall, were written almost as practice for the novels he was to write to conclude the Dune sequence, which his father had left unfinished. I don't know if they're out yet, but perhaps they are/ will be in better nick, and since the subject matter is more suitable to the style in which Frank Herbert wrote, perhaps he'll try to emulate that too.

I read Frank Herbert as much for his style as for anything else.

FionnMatthew

As I remember, Dune Messiah was a long slow burn, and the last few pages were stunning- some of the most memorable words in the whole sequence.

sunny2004

Great books, Lord of the rings and Dune series got me hooked on reading also !

Hitch-Hiker

Dune is probably my favourite book of all time, and that is not an exaggeration. The scope of the novels astound me, and no matter how many times I read them, I always find something new to enjoy in them. I do think the original is definitely the best, but Messiah and Children of Dune are on par aswell. I prefer to take those three as one bigger story. I enjoyed God Emperor, although it was quite a departure. The last 2 were ok. Only read them if you're a big fan of the series.

To the poster who asked about the newer books; I have yet to read the new sequels by Brian Herbert, although I have just begun to read his Prelude to Dune series. I'm almost at the end of House Atreides and I'm enjoying it. While not as well written as the original it is a decent adventure novel, and it offers interesting histories for the main characters within the Dune universe. They're not as 'deep' as the original series but they're worth a look anyway.

I am still waiting for a definitive screen version of Dune though. The 1984 film was hugely flawed in terms of plot. A lot of it just didn't make sense. The inner monologues were cringeworthy, and that bit at the end with the rain made me wretch. Visually however (particularly the first act) it was brilliant. The sets and costumes were near perfect, and captured the mood of the book very well. The acting was good enough considering what they had to work with.

The sci-fi channel mini-series was a huge improvement in terms of plot. It followed the book much more closely. Some liberties were taken, but it is to be expected in any adaptation. Unfortunately it falls down where the movie succeeded. The costumes were dire, the sets were cheap looking and the CG was laughable. Some awful acting in there aswell. Overall I preferred the mini-series, but If we could get a feature length movie series in the vein of Lord of the rings, it could be worthwhile.

Anyway, long story short - Dune Rules

Dades

Hmmm. I love sci-fi, but struggled when I tried Dune a couple of years back.
Just found it a bit purple-prosey.

Going on hols in a few weeks so maybe I'll give it another chance on foot of the recommendations here.

johnnyskeleton

Dune is a bit like marmite you either love it or you don't get what's so special. I loved it for a few reasons, mostly that:

1) it showed me that science fiction wasn't all star trek/star wars type fantasy, but could be a good mirror to our own world.
2) there is a great mix of ideas, characters and plot. The main character is conflicted between destiny and freedom of choice and the resolution of this conflict is very vivid.
3) i love the meter of some of the lines: "tell me of the waters of your homeworld usal"

Fremen

Dune is immense.

Read it or I'll send the fremen after ya.

FionnMatthew

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

The sci-fi channel mini-series was a huge improvement in terms of plot. It followed the book much more closely. Some liberties were taken, but it is to be expected in any adaptation. Unfortunately it falls down where the movie succeeded. The costumes were dire, the sets were cheap looking and the CG was laughable. Some awful acting in there aswell. Overall I preferred the mini-series, but If we could get a feature length movie series in the vein of Lord of the rings, it could be worthwhile.

I think I (barely) preferred the movie, but they were both dire.

I don't think it could work in a feature length movie series. The demands placed on the LOTR by that genre were enough to render it mediocre, the everyday man's version of a fantasy epic. Dune is so idiosyncratic that it could only be carried off in a medium that is extremely sensitive to the particulars of the material.

I would say that the closest you could come to that kind of medium would be an animated series, which takes itself completely seriously, like Oshii's Ghost in the Shell, with high production values, and an auteur production team.

Cinemtographically, it would have to draw something from David Lean's Lawrence of Arabia, and from Stanley Kubrick for the vividness of place and philosophy, but would also have to be as acutely able for the minutiae of conversation as Ghost in the Shell.

It's nigh impossible, but to make it into a motion picture again- that would be impossible. It'd be awful.