DART Underground - Dublin's Interconnector

ad hoc

IE have announced some more details about the Interconnector.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp

Open Days to be held in Wood Quay next week (July 3rd, 4th).

Interconnector Route Options: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/interconnector_A2.pdf

Further Information on Project: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/interconnector_A5.pdf

strassenwolf

ad hoc wrote:

Further Information on Project: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/interconnector_A5.pdf

What an unfortunate choice in their "station concepts" section. Munich's Trudering station was a location where 9 people died during construction of their underground due to the presence of an underground river. Basically, the tunnel collapsed and a bus which was on the road above it fell into the hole. Many of the bodies were never found.

Most of us know at this stage what an underground station looks like, so we really don't need an example. But if you're going to pick one station in western Europe as an example for a line with a station positioned under a river, Trudering in Munich is probably the last one you'd choose.

The mind boggles.

murphaph

Surely they should have picked one from the Stammstrecke in Munich, which is their interconnector and not one from their U-Bahn too. I didn't even recognise that Trudering was the site of that accident either. Anyway, am I the only one who's worried at the number of entrances to each station? Seems very limited t me. The likes of Stephen's Green could be compared to Marienplatz in Munich, which has loads of entrances and spreads the catchment area because of it.

embraer170

New Paris RER stations (the E line) are all 4-tracked. With a bit of forward thinking, the interconnector would have the same especially if we think about eventually having Intercity trains going through it or why not even a Dublin airport terminus... but oh well, I guess I can keep dreaming.

Victor

Just build another tunnel next to it.

snappieT

Victor wrote:

Just build another tunnel next to it.

Estimated completion 2073

antoinolachtnai

I thought the plan was to run all commuter trains from north dublin through the interconnector? This isn't what's indicated here.

One big issue here is going to be the interconnecting stations. Pearse St.'s current facilities look way underspecced to cater for the extra business this would bring.

Similarly, in St. Stephen's Green, there would be a massive amount of transfer between LUAS, metro and DART. You could easily end up with thousands of people down on the underground platforms. There could theoretically be 2600 people trying to change trains all at once. Realistically, there could be about 1000 people, but even this is a very large amount. If you want to be able to evacuate all the underground platforms, you're going to need a lot of escalators.

Partial solution to this might be to move forward the project of linking the Luas to the metro, and run the Luas north-south connector ('bx') via Christchurch, so that there are more stations where people can change.

No one is mentioning much about the frequency of services, which is obviously going to be pretty critical.

strassenwolf

strassenwolf wrote:

9 people died

Sorry lads. My mistake. 4 people died. The world must have other modern looking stations that could have been chosen. Perhaps even one that didn't have a curved platform.

http://www.truderinger-kulturkreis.de/ak_hist/bilder/bus-unglueck-trud1994.jpg

aliveandkicking

This is all good. The interconnector is now beginning to become a reality rather than this aspiration we've been talking about on the internet for the last few years. I'll still only believe its happening when I see the TBMs boring under Heuston though

Also good to see they are marketing it as "DART Underground" - perfect description, gets the point accross to the average Joe who hasn't a clue what "the interconnector" is.

Victor

Yeah, curved platforms are out of favour because of 'the gap'.

strassenwolf

There doesn't appear to be any mention of the options in today's Irish Times. They should try and get it in if they want people to go along to the open days.

jjbrien

Its a bit strange that it doesnt connect with Connolly another one of Irish Rails joined up thinking ideas where its just not linked up. So whats somebody to do if they want to leave the car at home take the dart into town and then take a train to rosslare/Sligo/Belfast.

dmeehan

jjbrien wrote:

So whats somebody to do if they want to leave the car at home take the dart into town and then take a train to rosslare/Sligo/Belfast.

change at pearse and get a dart to connolly

Ste.phen

But that would add entire MINUTES to their journey! :O

Tom Dunne

On the first PDF, Option A for the Docklands station states the roof will be 2m below the river bed. I presume that is 2 metres, not 2 miles .

Does that seem an incredibly small distance between river and roof?

Great to see it finally getting out into the public domain, though.

Skyhater

Yep..... A successful systems doesn't need to connect to every station. All we need to good connections throughout the system, and frequent Darts/trams/metro's!!!!

These connections are key....
- I don't want to leave the confines of the station and get wet (underground travelators.... whatever it takes).
- I want a single ticket for my entire journey.
- I don't want to wait any more than 5 minutes on a platform.

Winters

jjbrien wrote:

Its a bit strange that it doesnt connect with Connolly another one of Irish Rails joined up thinking ideas where its just not linked up. So whats somebody to do if they want to leave the car at home take the dart into town and then take a train to rosslare/Sligo/Belfast.

The layout is designed to serve the daily commuters primarily because they make up the larger % of users.

MarkoP11

If you are going to Rosslare (500k a year) you either board in Connolly or Pearse if you are on a DART service from anywhere its one change, as with anyone on longer distance into Connolly its only if you arrive Intercity at Heuston and want Intercity at Connolly do you need 2 changes which would be the exact same as in London, Paris or any major city, Heuston Connolly, the Luas is already in place.

Reasonable chance that there will be Sligo - Rosslare and Longford - Gorey services so it one change for the majority by going via Pearse.

Intercity passengers make up less than 20% of the total carried princple concern is moving commuters

D'Peoples Voice

aliveandkicking wrote:

when I see the TBMs boring under Heuston though

It should be better when they start boring under Wood Quay to get to Christchurch - just think of the delays because of archaeological finds:D

With it being underground, they may be able to get away with is easier!:)

fitzyshea

strassenwolf wrote:

There doesn't appear to be any mention of the options in today's Irish Times. They should try and get it in if they want people to go along to the open days.

See page 3 of your Times!

murphaph

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

It should be better when they start boring under Wood Quay to get to Christchurch - just think of the delays because of archaeological finds:D

I'm pretty sure the TBM will lay waste to any pesky 'old stuff'!

gjim

I presume the East Wall junction will be grade separated? It's not clear from the plans but surely it will be terrible for capacity and reliability if it isn't; it'll be a tricky job to do this without disrupting existing services. I don't see how the Maynooth line will have access to the tunnel as was claimed here given the gradients assuming it goes under Sherrif St.

Also at the other end, it seems that it follows the PPT "branch" (just past the South Circular Rd.) before going underground presumably before/near the Heuston car park. I was under the impression that it was to go underground further west. If the Kildare route project only provides 4 tracks to Cherry Orchard, how will this work?

Anyway it's great to see the project publicised. Most of the publicity in the papers and on the news has been very positive.

Victor

I imagine the TBM will be well below anything Viking or newer. I would worry about some foundations though.

dowlingm

Is the subriver part to be TBM or cut and cover like the Jack Lynch tunnel? A 2m topcover seems to imply cut/cover to me...

Zebra3

gjim wrote:

I don't see how the Maynooth line will have access to the tunnel as was claimed here given the gradients assuming it goes under Sherrif St.

I thought the Maynooth line was to become Maynooth (Dunboyne)-Bray/Greystones line and therefore it's not meant to use the tunnel.

Skyhater

Zebra3 wrote:

I thought the Maynooth line was to become Maynooth (Dunboyne)-Bray/Greystones line and therefore it's not meant to use the tunnel.

It is!!!!

The Maynoth > Hazlehatch (via the interconnector) option is being put forward by people who want to keep the existing Dart Alignment. As far as i am concerned they are more worried about how the new "network" will effect there little lives then seeing a truly integrated network that will improve public transport for the majority of people!!!

Chris_533976

Was just on RTE news all this.

Good to see they're promoting it all.

Victor

Skyhater wrote:

It is!!!!

The Maynoth > Hazlehatch (via the interconnector) option is being put forward by people who want to keep the existing Dart Alignment. As far as i am concerned they are more worried about how the new "network" will effect there little lives then seeing a truly integrated network that will improve public transport for the majority of people!!!

Just tell them that this will make it easier to get to Grafton Street, the airport, etc.

loyatemu

even if regular services are run Maynooth-Bray it would be foolish and short-sighted not have access to the tunnel from the Maynooth line.

There's 2 routes into the Docklands area from the Maynooth line, it must be possible to link one of them into the tunnel.

MarkoP11

The Midland line and Drumcondra lines are shown as connected to the interconnector tunnel on the track layout diagrams IE produced in March 2006

That is purely for operational reasons and not for scheduled services

luckat

I'm so delighted that the start of an underground system is planned! Well done Iarnród Éireann!

Wonder will they get artists to design the stations so they're beautiful, like those in some other countries.

According to local TDs, they're looking at bringing a Luas branch up to Harold's Cross too.

Victor

luckat wrote:

According to local TDs, they're looking at bringing a Luas branch up to Harold's Cross too.

Mostly an election promise.

luckat

I hope it's not an election promise... we've been getting letters saying it's under discussion for nine months or so now.

icdg

Was annoyed at some reports that certain TDs were complaining that the line was going to be at Irish gauge and not European standard gauge like the Metro, thus rendering it unable to interoperate with Metro.

They seem to have missed the point - if it was at European standard gauge, it would unable to be an interconnector as DART trains would be unable to run on it!

MarkoP11

luckat wrote:

I hope it's not an election promise... we've been getting letters saying it's under discussion for nine months or so now.

Well there is no funding for a study for a Luas for Harolds Cross, doesn't appear in any stuff I've seen from the RPA

RPA are however funded to look at extending Metro North from St Stephen's Green to Tallaght via Harolds Cross

Of course the first serious proposal to build the interconnector tunnel was made by CIE in 1975 so nine months means zlich

spacetweek

gjim wrote:

Also at the other end, it seems that it follows the PPT "branch" (just past the South Circular Rd.) before going underground presumably before/near the Heuston car park. I was under the impression that it was to go underground further west. If the Kildare route project only provides 4 tracks to Cherry Orchard, how will this work?

I seem to remember hearing/reading that 4 tracking from Cherry Orchard to the tunnel portals is included in the Interconnector project or "DART Underground" as they now seem to have branded it.

Just want to echo everybody else and say how pleased I am that this seems to be getting off the ground. Now for Metro North...

Edit:Read this and look at the section "Did the KRP originally have a wider scope?" It has interesting info on the Interconnector.

spacetweek

MarkoP11 wrote:

Well there is no funding for a study for a Luas for Harolds Cross, doesn't appear in any stuff I've seen from the RPA

RPA are however funded to look at extending Metro North from St Stephen's Green to Tallaght via Harolds Cross

Of course the first serious proposal to build the interconnector tunnel was made by CIE in 1975 so nine months means zlich

The rule of thumb is that anything not specifically provided for in T21 is unlikely to happen before 2015.

gjim

Yes, I know that no scheduled services will run Maynooth line to the tunnel and I wasn't trying to suggest that such a service would be a good idea at all. However, I miscalculated the gradients involved; it certainly will be possible to link both the Midlands and Maynooth lines to the tunnel.

I'm still very interested in their plans at other end 'though. If the tunnel emerges from underground in the car park behind Heuston (which is what the maps seem to suggest) instead of further out at Inchicore, there might just be enough room to build a link from the PPT going east to the tunnel. Presto - a circle line using the Midlands line, if it were ever needed, would be possible.

I just can't help trying to think about ways to use the PPT and Midlands line. It seems such a waste to have such valuable infrastructure doing nothing. Even after the Interconnector, there must be something useful which it could be used for. The last suggestion I posted here (to have a Howth to Heuston DART using the Midlands lines and PPT) received an unenthusiastic response.

To be honest, I think a circle line in Dublin is a solution looking for a problem but I know that everyone who knows little or nothing about Dublin's rail needs loves the idea of a circle line and at least the people along the Midlands line would have access to the rail network.

luckat

What's the actual difference between the Luas and the Metro? Are they both not just trams with different names on them? (Not cribbing, asking for information.)

robd

luckat wrote:

What's the actual difference between the Luas and the Metro? Are they both not just trams with different names on them? (Not cribbing, asking for information.)

Basically, yes. It's just being called Metro because it is underground. The platforms will be longer to accommodate longer Luas. There will be no ticket validation same as Luas. It's the same track gauge and 750V as the per the Luas.

Victor

They may actually be physically wider vehicles.

Prof_V

Victor wrote:

They may actually be physically wider vehicles.

I think what's being talked about is same width as Luas (2.4m) at platform level, wider (2.65m) above; this would allow both vehicle types to use the same platforms where appropriate (for instance, on the Harcourt Street line when that's connected to Metro, or maybe on parts of Metro West). This may have changed, though; there seem to have been more than a few changes of mind on rolling stock.

Skyhater

robd wrote:

Basically, yes. It's just being called Metro because it is underground.

What about Metro West..... Not one km of that will be underground!!!

Metro will have slightly higher capacity (wider and longer tram set)......

But i personally believe the word "METRO" should be reserved for Rail services that are completely separated from Road and Pedestrian traffic (Underground or Overground)!!!!
While Metro-North hopefully will be (if they actually do the 'right' thing in Ballymun), Metro-West won't!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Preferably i'd also like this to be heavy rail)

BrianD

robd wrote:

Basically, yes. It's just being called Metro because it is underground. The platforms will be longer to accommodate longer Luas. There will be no ticket validation same as Luas. It's the same track gauge and 750V as the per the Luas.

Problem with Dublin is that it has too many transport brand. As I have said before there should be one brand for everything - DART just like in other cities.

Winters

Victor wrote:

They may actually be physically wider vehicles.

I think the RPA have dropped the idea of getting 2.64m wide trams with 2.4 gauge as they are not available off the shelf and thus would cost considerably more. I believe they are going with 2.4m wide trams similar to the current Alstom fleet but longer (60m) and with increased standing room. Pity they just didn't retrofit the lines to 2.65 as 2.4 could be very limiting in the future. I believe it would have been possible on the Green line but financially prohibitive on the red line.

Slice

Good to see there is some movement on this. The RPA were beginning to make IE look like the layabouts I sometimes suspect them to be. Hopefully the specs of the underground stations will be tops as oppose to the rest of the clapped out stations on the dart network.

Metrobest

BrianD wrote:

Problem with Dublin is that it has too many transport brand. As I have said before there should be one brand for everything - DART just like in other cities.

Metro and luas have a stronger brand than DART, much stronger. Think of DART and what comes to mind? Ronnnie Drew. Manky stations. Late trains. Rude staff.

Luas and metro? Speed. Modernity. Frequency. Comfort. Success.

Just look at all the advertisements which feature luas, the newspresenters from the fourcourts standing in front of the luas stop where they used to stand on the quays.. Luas looks good and people know it. Metro will be even better, though.

Skyhater

Metrobest wrote:

Metro and luas have a stronger brand than DART, much stronger. Think of DART and what comes to mind? Ronnnie Drew. Manky stations. Late trains. Rude staff.

Luas and metro? Speed. Modernity. Frequency. Comfort. Success.

Just look at all the advertisements which feature luas, the newspresenters from the fourcourts standing in front of the luas stop where they used to stand on the quays.. Luas looks good and people know it. Metro will be even better, though.

It's easy for Luas to have a better brand than Dart.....after all Dart is 25 years Old with minimal investment.

I just wish the Government had the bottle to Fix the Real Problems within CIE, and not just circumvent them with a new body (the RPA). This has just left us with two different bodies, and a much lesser chance of achieving a proper integrated network!!!

Slice

I wouldn't say metro has any brand yet or any sort of associations for the casual dubliner given that it's not even in service yet...

Victor

Skyhater wrote:

I just wish the Government had the bottle to Fix the Real Problems within CIE, and not just circumvent them with a new body (the RPA). This has just left us with two different bodies, and a much lesser chance of achieving a proper integrated network!!!

Talking to a ex-CIE trade union official, serious effort has to be taken to remove the complacency present among IE staff in particular.

Slice wrote:

I wouldn't say metro has any brand yet or any sort of associations for the casual dubliner given that it's not even in service yet...

They understand metro from other cities.

monument

Skyhater wrote:

It's easy for Luas to have a better brand than Dart.....after all Dart is 25 years Old with minimal investment.... etc

Yeah, but lets not let anything get in the way of a good pro-Luas rant!

Metrobest wrote:

Luas and metro? Speed. Modernity. Frequency. Comfort. Success.

Let's not forget the images of...

...trams which are packed.

...the growing feature of grime at stations as well as on trams as the system gets older.

...station bins overflowing before half the day is gone.

...beggars at stations.

...badly designed platforms such as the east one at Heuston and the north one at Abbey Street.

...the struggle that it is often to get on a out-of-town bound tram at the Abbey Street stop, never mind at Jervis.

Luas isn't all that fast, and for a great bulk of passengers it isn't all that comfortable.

You got frequency, but you missed the second real key linked to frequency, and that is reliability. Reliability and frequency are key to Luas and most urban public transport, most of the rest of the points are side points.