Dabbling in 'black' arts

Talliesin

Sapien wrote:

I wouldn't have called it "dark", so much as stupid.

Of course, the sources of most bad experiences aren't bad in themselves but it's the interaction between oneself and that source that is bad.

Alcohol, food, electricity, petrol. All things we often use and would rather not have to do without (food especially) but it doesn't take a massive leap to see how they could be the source of bad experiences.

ladybirdirl wrote:

kudos to you for trying it at 15,

And yet at the same time, to any 15-year olds reading this, do not try invoking Fenris at home. That's probably the first thing he got wrong right there.

Not to say I never did anything earlier than 15 years of age myself, that would be hypocritical and dishonest, just to say it probably wasn't very wise.

IncredibleHulk

Sapien wrote:

I have had experiences that I describe, using the terminology appropriate to the context and my approach to it, as encounters with demons. Whether these demons are aspects of my own subconscious, products of hypnotic suggestion, manifestations of the collective unconscious, or alien intelligences, incarnate or discarnate, I have not deigned to opine, and, generally, do not. I cannot offer proof of these encounters, and do not intend to try. I cannot explain them, but am happy to throw around ideas. I can describe them to some extent, but with the caution that they are, by their nature, hugely subjective experiences. What is "lame" about that, I ask you?

My statement that I have met demons is theoretical insofar as I am open to any theory as to what (or whether) a demon might be, or what might be occuring when I encounter one. I apologise if that was unclear, but I assure you I meant nothing else.


Er, what? A theory is valid if it explains what is observed, and strong if it does so more simply than any other theory. It is accepted until it is falsified. Your last sentence above does not make sense or reflect how science does or should work.


Break! Is there no other explanation to what? What have I tried to explain? I am a magician, I study magic, I do magic. Calling it magic does not entail any judgement or contention as to how it works. I do not attempt to explain it, or comment on whether it can be explained. It may very well be explainable. But I am not interested in explaining it. I am interested in doing it. For the time being, at least.


Precisely. You contend that, as a sceptic, I must be interested in how it works. Well, I'm interested, I suppose. I'd love to know. It would make me quite famous. But, in doing magic, it is not my aim to know how it works. I hope you took on board my analogies about working out or learning a new language. Magic affords practical benefits - it is generally not undertaken for investigative purposes.


Quite, because you only seem willing to listen to what I have to say up to a point, whereafter you seem to conclude that in order to be a sceptic I must abandon the pursuit of magic once clear explanations are not forthcoming. I then say that I do not do magic for the same reason I do science - to learn about the nature of the universe. This does not mean that I cannot approach it sceptically. Once again, scepticism can be applied in evaluating whether or not an effect exists, not merely in whether the theory proposed to explain the effect is valid. Magic is about results, and I am sceptical of results.

What I am interested in here is to discuss certain ideas, like the existence of spirits, or what spirits might be, or the effects of ritual on the practitioner, or other practices that comprise modern magic, with a view to clarifying exactly what magicians do or believe, and more importantly what they do not. Clearly this is important because, a dozen posts in, you still bear misconceptions about what I mean by summoning demons, and you still seem to assume that I believe magic to be inherently and necessarily supernatural and unexplainable by science. With such misconceptions you cannot seriously engage with the ideas involved in magic, and cannot hope to understand what motivates so many rational, educated people to practice it.

Please take on board the following points.

- Magic is a set (or set of sets) of practices and techniques. It is not a belief system or a theory. Calling something magical is not a way of describing how it works.

- Magic is not undertaken to investigate the nature of the universe. It is undertaken to impart skills and abilities, to improve character and develop personally.

Hi
Can I ask what results were obtained and how to distinguish them from co incidence. How to know they would not have happened anyway? No offence I am not challenging anyones beliefs

ron_darrell

Thaedydal wrote:

I would want to know what you personally would consider 'dark arts';
cos for some people it is anything that could be considered magical or related to any forum of witchcraft or divination regardless of who was doing it and for what ends.

Voodoo is seen as dark because it is visceral and deals in sex and death and excess
and sure no good upstanding moral Christian would have anything to do with such things.

Aren't there two forms of that religion Voodoo (which is white magic i.e. not actively promoting harm) and Hoodoo (which is black magic ie.e it's sole purpose is to cause harm and gain power for the practioner)

BTW I'm atheist so incapable of believing in any of this stuff however I think the important thing is the state of mind of the practioner and what s/he believes. If you believe in demons and evil and hate you'll see demons, if you believe in angels and goodness and peace you'll see angels. But remember just because the eye sees it doesn't mean it's there. The human mind is a fragile, fallible thing.

-RD

Talliesin

ron_darrell wrote:

Aren't there two forms of that religion Voodoo (which is white magic i.e. not actively promoting harm) and Hoodoo (which is black magic ie.e it's sole purpose is to cause harm and gain power for the practioner).

No.

For the most part Voodoo is used to refer to a religion which includes magical practices and Hoodoo to those magical practices used on their own (comparable to the relationship between religions like Wicca and Feri to operative witchcraft). However the words do sometimes get used in varying overlapping ways (they do after all apply to a variety of related beliefs found throughout West Africa and North and South America and the Caribbean and, to a lesser extent, Europe amongst a people that during its development were largely illiterate and incapable of much communication amongst that territory - so we can expect to find great variance in how words are used within that range).

Neither is necessarily harmful. Neither is necessarily non-harmful.

NovemberStar

I just read this post and thought I`d give my two cents. I spent five years as a pagan/Wiccan. I always attemped NOT to dabble in so-called "black arts" and although I did spellwork, it was only ever intended for good and positive purposes. Most Wiccans would never use spellwork for evil- in fact "And it harm none, do what ye will" is one of the mottos of Wicca.
That said, even with all my caution, and outside of actual spellcasting, I did manage to encouter forces that up until theat point I was sceptical even existed. Horrible things.

I am not bull****ing-myself and a close relative (who is not given over to flights of fantasy) experienced a vicious poltergeist first hand and were physically injured during the attack , which has played on my mind ever since. That and a few other events, which I won`t go into.
This attack came after myself and a few drunken friends had the bright idea of partying inside a tomb a few days prior to this.
Though I am not judgemental of those who do, (I am, by bloodline, a hereditary witch) I no longer have anything to do with conjuring/spellwork/astral travel etc. I can tell you first hand that there is so much more out there then we know about. You will never believe it until it happens to you but Im telling you that dabbling in things of the spirit world, whethor your intentions are good or otherwise can be dangerous in itself. You can get more than you invited and it isnt always pleasant.
I dont mean to frighten anyone, but you wanted the truth.

NovemberStar

Sapien

IncredibleHulk wrote:

Hi
Can I ask what results were obtained and how to distinguish them from co incidence. How to know they would not have happened anyway?

That depends on what you mean by results. Most of the magic I do is aimed at inducing a particular state of mind or body, which is either intended to last for the period of the ritual or for some time thereafter, or, sometimes, to effect a permanent change in my person. Most involve encounters with entities, which, as I have said, can be rationalised in a number of different ways, but certainly could not "happen anyway", or be explained by coincidence. Most magic is about seeking out new, different and extreme spiritual experiences to bring about change in oneself and ones environment. I am quite certain that the changes I bring about in myself as a result of the practice of magic would not have happened anyway.

As to magic that is aimed at tweaking circumstances, bringing about luck, confidence or strength, or attracting certain influences, the results generally are coincidence - that's the point. A good magician is one who experiences favourable coincidences unusually frequently, generally in accordance with expectation. Scepticism comes into play by realistically appraising the significance of the coincidence, and bringing such observations to bear on method in a heuristic way.

pvt. joker

I had a pretty horrific oiuja board experience when i was in high school. To this day i can't even be in the same room with one. I'm about to leave work, i'll post the story tomorrow though

pvt. joker

Oh, and my last house was haunted...i'll tell that story tomorrow also

Talliesin

NovemberStar wrote:

in fact "And it harm none, do what ye will" is one of the mottos of Wicca.

Well, that's the case of what to do when something won't do any harm.

Now, what about the case where something does do harm?

I really don't think the Rede says anything on that at all. The laws do quite clearly though; "And for long we have obeyed this law, 'Harm none'" addresses this a lot more directly I think.

That's a long way away from not dealing with it though.

Considering that the equation of black == evil doesn't make any sense in Wicca, we're left considering those things that aren't pleasant without just labelling them blindly as evil. Consider the other Wiccan addage, "you can't heal if you can't hurt".

One thing I think of sometimes in this is the legendary association between witches and midwifery. Whatever historical validity that may or may not have, it's interesting to consider. Midwifery means being involved in what is one of the most beautiful moments in most peoples lives. It also involves a lot of blood, ****, piss and vomit. And that's the good ones that don't go badly. A midwife can't say "oh, I only want to deal with wrapping up the new babbie and seeing the new mammy smile". Similarly, a witch can't say "oh, it's icky now".

No reason to jump into a bunch of nasty stuff that doesn't actually need your involvement either of course, but there's no such thing as a fair-weather witch.

Talliesin

pvt. joker wrote:

I had a pretty horrific oiuja board experience when i was in high school. To this day i can't even be in the same room with one.

I can handle being in the same room as a ouija board, but I have difficulties being in the same room as most people who use them.

I have a low threshold of moron.

This gets into an aspect of the original question that hasn't been dealt with much, that of dabbling.

Of course one has to start somewhere and shouldn't just jump straight in to something serious right away, baby-steps are good. But dabbling is problematic.

Indeed the big problem with dabbling isn't that people are uncommitted and not heavily involved, but that they are uncommitted, not heavily involved and tend to want to do something that'll result in something big and impressive happening at the same time.

It's like getting into pyrotechnics by heading into your shed with a barrel of gunpowder and a box of matches and expecting it to go well.

NovemberStar

No reason to jump into a bunch of nasty stuff that doesn't actually need your involvement either of course, but there's no such thing as a fair-weather witch.[/QUOTE]

Talliesin,
I think I may have mentioned that not only have I practised Wicca for five years but I am also a hereditary witch. I think making an informed decision to no longer practise is a personal choice and nothing to do with being a "fair weather witch".
The term: "fair weather " whethor it be with regards to a friend or otherwise, generally implies that one is into something when all is going well but never hangs around when things get tough. It implies to-ing and fro-ing.
After straight run of five years preactising Wicca, I have decided to make a clean cut from it because personally my negative experiences have outweighed my positive ones.

And IMHO, the spirit world in general is not something that should be toyed with.

November

Talliesin

NovemberStar wrote:

The term: "fair weather " whethor it be with regards to a friend or otherwise, generally implies that one is into something when all is going well but never hangs around when things get tough.

That's exactly what it means.

NovemberStar wrote:

I have decided to make a clean cut from it because personally my negative experiences have outweighed my positive ones.

Then you're pretty much in agreement with me, since making a clean cut with something isn't being "fair weather".

I started of disagreeing with you because I don't agree with your interpretation of the Rede, then made statements of my own about the Rede, the Laws and a view of negative things that makes sense with a rejection of the concept of "evil". That is, by the time I got to "fair weather" I'd moved on from stating a disagreement with your statement to making statements of my own, I wasn't thinking of you when I said that.

Staying in or getting out of any particular form of the Craft isn't reprehensible, so neither your getting out of one form nor staying in another is something I have anything bad to say about. If you'd faffed about in your comfort zone instead of making a clean break, then I might.

NovemberStar wrote:

And IMHO, the spirit world in general is not something that should be toyed with.

Damn right!

Nevyn

NovemberStar wrote:

After straight run of five years preactising Wicca, I have decided to make a clean cut from it because personally my negative experiences have outweighed my positive ones.

Where they personal spiritual negative experiences or interpersonal negative experiences ?

Also when you say Wicca do you mean in fact the
"Oathbound, Lineaged, Crossgendered Initiatory, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches" or the neopagan movement that calls it's self wicca and it
just paganism as mostly publish by a certain American publishing house ?

Also the redes are advice and not rules or laws.

Wicca is not a catch all word for Witchcraft.
Not all witches are pagan.
Not all pagans are witches.
Not all pagan witches are Wiccans.

All Wiccans are pagan and witches.
All Wiccans have proper Wiccan Lineage given by cross gendered initation.
The redes are a poem which gives advice it is not law.
There are laws which are called the ordains.


Wicca is an Oathbound, Lineaged, cross gendered Initatory, Experiential, Mystery, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches.

There are differing Traditions with in Wicca but they are all the same religion and stem from from a particular group of pagan witches in the New Forest area.

pvt. joker

Ouija board experience. We were typical idiot teenagers at my friends house one day. We were bored and had the day off. One of my friends found a Ouija board while looking for another board game. We all commented how stupid they were, but decided to mess with it. There were about 6 of us there. No one else was in the house. We started asking it questions and it was getting them correct...personal questions about family that the rest of the group wouldn't have known. We all started off skeptical but started to progressively all get freaked out more and more. At one point one of my other friends said stood up and basically said "This is all bull****, someone's pushing the pointer to the correct answers. I need some prooo..."

Before he got the word "proof" out of his mouth the electric went out to the whole house. It was afternoon so it wasn't pitch black, but we all freaked out. The kid whose house it was called his dad about the problem. The dad came home and went into the fuse box in back of the downstairs closet (there was boxes in front of it and no one even knew it was there). The main circuit was tripped.

I realize anything could have caused that, BUT they claim that never happened in that house before and no one in our group could have done it because we were all right there. It freaked us all out and we threw the board away

pvt. joker

Ghost story from our old house:

We bought a house in May 2003. Within a week of moving in we had several strange things happen. One morning the freezer door was wide open. Another day i heard footsteps on the stairs. I never put 2 and 2 together, but it was creeping me out because it was unexplainable

So after a week i met my next door neighbor. He was about 18 or 19 at the time and we were just BS'ing and at one point he was like "So, have you had anything strange happen to you in that house yet?" My blood went cold.

He proceeded to tell me that his mom lived next door her whole life and about 40 years ago a teenage girl hung herself in the upstairs 4th bedroom closet. I didn't believe him and other random stuff would happen. One day i got the balls up to go into the 4th bedroom closet that was now the access panel to the bathtub. I had to unscrew the plate covering the area. Once i did i noticed a STRANGE stain on the wood floor. It could have been anything, but it was too much of a coincidence that it was right there where the old closet would have been. I later learned that the girl hung herself on a friday night and wasn't discovered until sunday because her parents were out of town.

So we spent the next 3 years of our lives living with this houseguest. "She" never did anything crazy or scary...just wierd. We would occasionally hear footsteps at night. Our two dogs could see "her", there's no doubt in my mind. The hair on their backs would go up and they would follow something across the room on occasion.

The weirdest thing that ever happened to me was while my wife was out of town. No one else was in the house and i got a shower. Keep in mind the bathroom was expanded and the shower was in the same general area that the old closet was in. So i got out of the shower and closed the curtain and went to get changed. I came back in and the curtain was wide open again. I KNEW i closed it, it's an idiosyncracy that i have..i ALWAYS close the curtain. So i head downstairs to call my brother, a little freaked out. I get off the phone with him and come back upstairs to grab something and the curtain was open AGAIN. I freak out and leave the house. For the next few nights i totally avoid that bathroom until my wife got home.

That house had just a general BAD vibe to it. I can't explain it, but it just didn't feel right. I would feel like someone was watching me pretty often also. I later found out that the suicide girl's mother OD'd (not in the house) and her father killed himself (not in the house either). I also found out the person we bought the house from had a husband that died in a car accident 7 days after moving into the house (about 7 years before we moved there).

To top things off, two DAYS before we were about to move out a major storm blew through the area and a huge piece of tree fell parallel to the house and about a foot away. My wife was sitting by the window at the time and she would have been seriously hurt if it landed a foot closer. Coincidence? Maybe, but i think it was the house trying to claim another victim before we moved out

NovemberStar

Thaedydal wrote:

Where they personal spiritual negative experiences or interpersonal negative experiences ?

Also when you say Wicca do you mean in fact the
"Oathbound, Lineaged, Crossgendered Initiatory, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches" or the neopagan movement that calls it's self wicca and it
just paganism as mostly publish by a certain American publishing house ?

Also the redes are advice and not rules or laws.

Thaedyal,

I think I`ve made my point. I`m not sure whethor you`re trying to come across as clever, or simply argumentative for the sake of it, but in any case, I am well aware that the redes are advice and not laws..... What really has that got to do with anything anyway? Of course, you are free to curse someone, of use magic to do harm if you want to, but this is gnerally not an acceptable practice in Wicca.

The only time I mentioned the Wiccan Rede in my post was in general defense of Wicca as a whole, stating that in my own practise of the craft, I adhered the the general rule/law/advice/rede/whatever of HARM NONE, as most Wiccans do. Would you have advised me to do otherwise???? What point can you be hoping to make here??

Secondly, I`m not exactly sure why you are so interested in which EXACT kind of Wicca I practised. I could go into details about whethor I practised solitary or in groups, and by what exact title I used but seeing as the question asked was whethor anyone had any genuine experience with dabbling in the "black arts", I have answered that question with reference to my own experience without veering off on irrelevent points about my entire journey through the Craft and every form I have ever practised. Again, why are you so interested in details that are personal to me and nothing to do with the actual thread?
Were you simply trying to point out to me that there are various splinters of Wicca? Thank you Thaedydal, but I really knew that already. I suggest you direct your sarcastic "eduction" to someone new to the Craft who you might have more luck intimidating, as that does appear to be your purpose.
As for whethor they were personal or interpersonal experiences- for Gods sake have you even read my post? I detailed a bad experience involving me and a close relative, so assuming you already know the meaning of the word "interpersonal" and that I`ve described an experience involving TWO, that pretty much answers itself, doesn`t it?

Good bye and good luck (you need it)

Nevyn

NovemberStar wrote:

Thaedyal,

I think I`ve made my point. I`m not sure whethor you`re trying to come across as clever, or simply argumentative for the sake of it, but in any case, I am well aware that the redes are advice and not laws..... What really has that got to do with anything anyway? Of course, you are free to curse someone, of use magic to do harm if you want to, but this is gnerally not an acceptable practice in Wicca.

It is as you stated generally not acceptable that does not mean it never happens.

I wasn't being argumentative but was enquiring.

I have come cross the misconception about the redes so many time I was posting for the sake of clarification for those who read this thread which is a lot of people I certainly was trying to have a go at you personally,

NovemberStar wrote:

The only time I mentioned the Wiccan Rede in my post was in general defense of Wicca as a whole, stating that in my own practise of the craft, I adhered the the general rule/law/advice/rede/whatever of HARM NONE, as most Wiccans do. Would you have advised me to do otherwise???? What point can you be hoping to make here??

How can you say you were defending Wicca as a whole by refering to your own practice of the Craft surely that is an oxymoron ?

Wicca has not been the focus of this thread, magical practices have,
there are many people who post in this forum who do not understand what Wicca is, this is the paranormal forum not the paganism forum, hence my stating what Wicca is for those who read this forum.

NovemberStar wrote:

Secondly, I`m not exactly sure why you are so interested in which EXACT kind of Wicca I practised. I could go into details about whethor I practised solitary or in groups, and by what exact title I used but seeing as the question asked was whethor anyone had any genuine experience with dabbling in the "black arts", I have answered that question with reference to my own experience without veering off on irrelevent points about my entire journey through the Craft and every form I have ever practised.

I did not ask what tradition you were, I did not ask any questions which would stray into oathbound areas nor did I ask you to reveal anything about anyone else only to clarify a statement you made yourself about yourself.

I have no way of knowing what you mean as Wicca with out asking that question and I was forthcoming about what I know Wicca to be.

Many times there are those who read books and then think they can 'dub' themselves as being Wiccan when they do not even know what Wicca is,
I was politely asking what you consider to be Wicca.

NovemberStar wrote:

Again, why are you so interested in details that are personal to me and nothing to do with the actual thread?

If your understanding of what Wicca is, is too personal for you to state then why state that you are Wiccan if it is going to cause you that much discomfort when asked what you consider Wicca to be.

NovemberStar wrote:

Were you simply trying to point out to me that there are various splinters of Wicca? Thank you Thaedydal, but I really knew that already.

Good for you, but again this is a public forum and it is not the paganism forum and there are many here that do not understand what Wicca is.

The information in my post was for the thread and forum as a whole and not
a personal attack on you.

NovemberStar wrote:

I suggest you direct your sarcastic "eduction" to someone new to the Craft who you might have more luck intimidating, as that does appear to be your purpose.

If you have an issue with my post I suggest you use the report post function rather then resorting to personal abuse, I shall certainly be reporting your post.

I am sorry for you that you take a statement of fact for intimidation.

NovemberStar wrote:

As for whethor they were personal or interpersonal experiences- for Gods sake have you even read my post? I detailed a bad experience involving me and a close relative, so assuming you already know the meaning of the word "interpersonal" and that I`ve described an experience involving TWO, that pretty much answers itself, doesn`t it?

I did read your post and did not conclude that your negative experiences were related to Wicca at all.

Being Wiccan and being a witch can be separate things, a person may have
negative experiences in magical/astral/spirit/entity context and it have nothing to do with their religion even if they are Wiccan.

Talliesin

NovemberStar wrote:

I am well aware that the redes are advice and not laws.

Why do you then say:

NovemberStar wrote:

the general rule/law/advice/rede/whatever

You can't have a rede/law. It's either a rede or it's a law or it's something else, but it can't be both.

NovemberStar wrote:

of HARM NONE

Where does it say that in the Rede?
It says nothing of the sort. It says "An it harm none". The Rede addresses one particular situation - you want to do someting that isn't harmful - and gives a particular piece of advice - do it. It's a straightforward rejection of any idea of something being "immoral" if that thing doesn't do any harm. It's actually the norm in mainstream society now. Just a few decades ago we had all sorts of rules in our society based on arbitrary ideas of "morality", hell you could go to jail just because you shagged someone of the same sex as yourself, never mind the rules that were enforced only by social convention. The Rede says sod that, which is sensible advice to one who "shall be free from all slavery".

Yet you're citing it as some sort of Wiccan rule. Now yes, the laws also say "harm none", but they also say that the reason for this rule is to make it less likely for strife to affect kin.

The more basic matter of behaving in a reasonably ethical manner isn't really covered in either the laws or anywhere else. Why should it be? Basic ethical thinking (as opposed to merely doing what you are told) starts around the age of seven. If someone hadn't managed that by the time they were old enough for Wicca what kind of eejit would initiate them?

NovemberStar wrote:

Secondly, I`m not exactly sure why you are so interested in which EXACT kind of Wicca I practised.

Seems like a request for clarification of terms. A lot of other forms of Pagan witchcraft that have no connection to the New Forest covens gets labelled "Wicca" these days, so it can indeed be worth asking what you mean by it.

NovemberStar wrote:

but seeing as the question asked was whethor anyone had any genuine experience with dabbling in the "black arts"

Again, terms need to be clarified.

A sensible discussion of "black arts" might talk about the films of Spike Lee or of Blues music. That's obviously not what is intended.

The most common definition is one only makes sense from the outside - "black arts" is after all an emotive term used to condemn all occult practice.

To answer it meaningfully we need to look at just what is meant by "black" in this context. The only sensible ways I can think of is to take it at face value as talking about all occult practice or to answer it is to look at those aspects of occult working that are not entirely pleasant, I personally took the latter. Whatever way to look at it make sense to you, define your terms.

NovemberStar wrote:

I suggest you direct your sarcastic "eduction" to someone new to the Craft who you might have more luck intimidating

Do you really find a straightforward question intimidating?

NovemberStar

I am not going to bother with any more of this drivle.

6th

In fairness as interesting as some of this is half this thread belongs elsewhere ... in my opinion. I've tried a few times now to put a reply together on this but its so far from paranormal at times and so poorly thought out at other times that its impossible to wade through.

Talliesin

I think it more belongs in lots of different places. Plenty of different bits of this can be discussed further fruitfully I'd say, but there's a lot of different things that came up at the same time.

6th

Yeah theres a few topics very worthy of discussion in different forums but as it is it does little justice to the original question being asked.

ladybirdirl

Question asked and answered by one of the moderators already.

Yes the thread has taken twists and turns but I see no reason to seperate at this point as the discussion is almost at a conclusion.

Ladybird

6th

Almost at a conclusion? There is no conclusion the way its going.

ladybirdirl

6th wrote:

Almost at a conclusion? There is no conclusion the way its going.

That's your opinion which you are completely entitled to.

I would take a different view in that almost all of the threads I hav have seen come to an inevtiable conclusion after passage of time or much discussion

Instead of dragging this even further away from the topic can I suggest that the above is allowed to happen, rather than having any intrinsic lessons from the thread lost in a debate over whether we are or are not at a conclusion.

Thanks

Ladybird

GuanYin

this is a discussion forum, not an investigative committee.... discussions don't need to be aiming towards drawing conclusions.

stevenmu

And discussions should also stay reasonably on topic.

If someone has a problem with the way a thread is going they should report the post, or pm myself or one of the other moderators.

And like I said before, I do think this thread could spawn some other interesting discussions, if someone would like to pm me with the sections they think could be copied to make another thread, I would be happy to copy them out

ladybirdirl

Thanks guys - agree completely.

Ladybird

dent

Great thread, I found it very informative, I've never really had any type of paranormal experience, but I have listened to the accounts of several reliable people so I am open minded.

In terms of magic as discussed in this thread it seems that its quite a personal and private experience for the people using it. It seems that even reflecting on its use may even hamper its effects.

Seems that it might be quite difficult gathering empirical evidence of its effects.

Have any magic users attempted to gather empirical evidence of its effects? Or would the very act stop the magic from working?

Talliesin

dent wrote:

In terms of magic as discussed in this thread it seems that its quite a personal and private experience for the people using it. It seems that even reflecting on its use may even hamper its effects.

There's definitely something to that. One of the reasons for following a working in Wiccan practice with cakes and wine is that it turns everyone's mind away from the working that was done and towards other things. It's far from the only, or even the main reason (food and drink is much more integral to Wicca as a fertility religion than it is to Wicca as a magical practice), but from experience I'd say that it certainly is efficacious to have something in any practical magical practice that helps you to "let go". It's an aspect of "To Keep Silent" that applies to ones own mind.

dent wrote:

Have any magic users attempted to gather empirical evidence of its effects? Or would the very act stop the magic from working?

It is a very good practice to keep an account of what is worked for and later to note whether it was attained, to what extent, and whether there was anything notable in how it came to pass.

For some magic workers this is of direct interest, for others its of interest only in so much as it helps one to hone one's craft (just as a programmer has an interest in computer science or a blacksmith in metallurgy not so much in themselves, but in how that informs those crafts).