Advanced Driving Test

djfattony2000 · 27-06-2007 3:28pm #1

Im thinking of doing the Institute of Advanced Motorists test. Does anyone one know about it? Is it worth doing? Do you get a document to say you have it?

Darragh29 · 27-06-2007 3:38pm

djfattony2000 wrote:

Im thinking of doing the Institute of Advanced Motorists test. Does anyone one know about it? Is it worth doing? Do you get a document to say you have it?

First I heard of this was when Hibernian were peddling this around the place during their "Ignition" driver training program. What exactly is "advanced" driving??? To me, driving doesn't get any more "advanced" than driving properly with courtesy for other road users. I don't get "advanced" driving. It makes me cringe when you get people like the over rated taxi drivers from the Advanced Driving Institute trying to inflate their own role in the world by harping on about being "advanced" drivers and using all this sexy terminology when it comes to driving. Just get in the car, drive safety and have respect for other road users. I can't for the life of me see how it can be made any more complicated than that.

27-06-2007 3:39pm

They teach you useful things like how to regain control of a car in an accident and stuff like that.

Darragh29 · 27-06-2007 4:21pm

Deleted User wrote:

They teach you useful things like how to regain control of a car in an accident and stuff like that.

Surely an "advanced" driver would not be in an accident, or would not find themselves in a situation where they had lost control of a car they were driving???

27-06-2007 4:23pm

You must expect the unexpected when driving., Be prepared, and the rest of those sayings apply. Someone may crash into you. S*** happens no matter how prepared or careful you are when driving. Advanced driving courses teach you to react properly when things go wrong. Im definately going to do one.

squishywishy · 27-06-2007 4:26pm

Have never eveb heard of it! can somebody explian what it is and how it benefits you??

27-06-2007 4:30pm

Well they are not run by the goverment if thats what you mean by never hearing of them. They are not compulsory, but some of the insurance companies give discounts if you take and pass an advanced driving course.

Wishbone Ash · 27-06-2007 4:46pm

All the info here: Irish Advanced Motorists

squishywishy · 27-06-2007 4:47pm

oh so its just the same as the ignition thing??

Anan1 · 27-06-2007 5:51pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Surely an "advanced" driver would not be in an accident, or would not find themselves in a situation where they had lost control of a car they were driving???

It's not quite that simple, Darragh...

OP - It is worth doing. You'll find driving both more relaxing & safer afterwards.

Darragh29 · 27-06-2007 5:54pm

<SNIP>

Edit: Steady on Darragh - no need for offensive language!

Darragh29 · 27-06-2007 5:59pm

<SNIP>

Offensive post removed. Consider that a yellow card Darragh29

SouperComputer · 27-06-2007 8:05pm

squishywishy wrote:

oh so its just the same as the ignition thing??

The ignition is based on it alright, but the IAM test is longer and much more varied. It has nothing to do controlling skids or whatnot, the focus of it is to avoid getting into situations like that in the first place. Basically scanning, looking for clues/hazards and buying yourself as much time as possible in a given situation.

I'd reccomend it, if nothing else you can save on insurance. Anything that gets you into a habit constantly of re-evaluating your driving is good. The fact that you seem interested in doing it is a good start.

Darragh29 wrote:

just get in the car, drive safely and have respect for other road users.

All valid points. However they are subjective terms. What seems safe or respectable varies amongst drivers. Based on proven techniques the IAM can help ensure that your driving meets these criteria.

IIRC drivers who have passed their advanced test are 60% less likely to be involved in a accident. I think that statistic is from either the Irish or Brittish site, so it would be fair to say it is beneficial.

Darragh29 · 27-06-2007 8:41pm

SouperComputer wrote:

The ignition is based on it alright, but the IAM test is longer and much more varied. It has nothing to do controlling skids or whatnot, the focus of it is to avoid getting into situations like that in the first place. Basically scanning, looking for clues/hazards and buying yourself as much time as possible in a given situation.

I'd reccomend it, if nothing else you can save on insurance. Anything that gets you into a habit constantly of re-evaluating your driving is good. The fact that you seem interested in doing it is a good start.

All valid points. However they are subjective terms. What seems safe or respectable varies amongst drivers. Based on proven techniques the IAM can help ensure that your driving meets these criteria.

IIRC drivers who have passed their advanced test are 60% less likely to be involved in a accident.

I wouldn't put a shred of weight behind this statistic, in particular because it is their own statistic on their own website. Looking at what is ahead of you and looking for oncoming risks is something that any driver should be doing constantly. You don't need to do an advanced driving course to start doing this. From what I saw with my own eyes, the IAM like using fancy jargon and creating all sort of psuedo risky scenarios to make themselves look important when they are telling you to do this and that.

One example is when I heard an IAM instructor saying that you should slow down your car with the engine and not use the brake until you need to stop, because this is a safer way to brake. The logic being that some day, you might need to use your brakes and you'll put your foot on the brake pedal and there will be no brake there. The only way I can see you putting your foot on the brake pedal and there being no brake there to stop you is if you do not get your car regularly serviced and maintained.

To me, this is just stupidity at it's absolute worst. What this guy was saying to me was, "I'm an advanced driver, I don't get my car serviced regularly so God only knows how much of a danger I am to other road users, but I'm going to preach to everyone how to be a safe driver!". Furthermore, how is a car behind you supposed to know you are slowing down, (but are not using your brakes), if your brake lights don't come on, as your brake lights won't come on if you are slowing down to a crawl using your engine and going through the gears??? This prolonged braking using the engine will ultimately damage your gearbox and also will cause your clutch to wear faster than it should.

When I heard this coming from an so called "advanced" driver, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

I've no problem with people trying to improve their driving skills, but I have a problem with people who quote chapter and verse and make wild roving statements that are obviously not based on fact. When I asked this IAM driver how he considered that the whole braking system can fail without warning and the car would be out of control in the context of him being an advanced driver and understanding the importance of vehicle servicing and maintenance, (which is actually almost impossible as manufacturers have designed redundancy systems into the braking system so you cannot be left with no braking ability, even if you don't get your car looked after), I was told I "didn't understand the technical aspects of a motor vehicle, which IAM members are fully and comprehensively trained in". This would be grand if I wasn't a qualified motor mechanic. I think the point is obvious...

ninty9er · 27-06-2007 9:54pm

^^^^

For one an advanced driver has no way of knowing if they may need to regain control of their car. hazards may not be explicit until the risk occurs. (i.e black ice, another driver losing control and hurtling at you etc...)

also, engine braking is taught by all good instructors, advanced or not!! It's best practice, but to be used in conjunction with the brake pedal. You'll notice a difference in driving an auto box because you can't use engine braking and this is generally why they go through brake pads faster too.

Wishbone Ash · 27-06-2007 10:03pm

ninty9er wrote:

engine braking is taught by all good instructors, advanced or not!! It's best practice, but to be used in conjunction with the brake pedal

Perhaps in a car, but it's considered a 'no-no' in heavier vehicles.

"Gears to go, brakes to slow" is the truck drivers motto. An articulated truck can easily be 'jack-knifed' if slowed using the engine as the brakes on the trailer, where most of the weight is, are not activated. (Normally when braking in an 'artic' the trailer brakes a fraction of a second before the tractor unit to ensure stability).

ninty9er wrote:

You'll notice a difference in driving an auto box because you can't use engine braking and this is generally why they go through brake pads faster too.

Yup.

SouperComputer · 28-06-2007 12:20am

So Darragh29 are you basing your authoritive opinion on your experience with a single IAM instructor?

Have you actually attended the IAM? Reason asking is that at no stage do they proclaim that it is special knowledge, but common sense for the most part. Somewhat agreeing with your POV

Darragh29 wrote:

(which is actually almost impossible as manufacturers have designed redundancy systems into the braking system so you cannot be left with no braking

This would be grand if I wasn't a qualified motor mechanic

Although its highly unlikely that you will have a full system failure, the redunancy that you speak of isn't really effective. If you suffer sudden fluid/pressure (busted seal/damaged pipe) loss in the front circuit for example you still have the rear but the braking action is next to worthless in an emergency situation. IMO its almost as good as having a brake failure.

Not a big fan of engine braking myself, tend to use heel-and-toe.

/edit I probably should say that I agree that the guy you talked to from the IAM sounds full of it.

nastysimon · 28-06-2007 12:45pm

djfattony2000 wrote:

Im thinking of doing the Institute of Advanced Motorists test. Does anyone one know about it? Is it worth doing? Do you get a document to say you have it?

Financially it can be worth it, but from a safety point of view, it is most definitely. There are some who will not benefit from it, some because they are already as good as the IAM course can help them be (those very few), but the majority that don't really benefit are too closed minded to accept that it will help and that they have a lot to learn (all drivers do).
It won't teach you how to drive like Alonso, but it will teach you how to avoid accidents and still make good progress. They will teach you how to recognize, prioritize and handle hazards and how to deal with dangerous situations. All that said, unless you realise that your driving can be improved significantly, there is nothing that they can do for you.
I would suggest reading "Roadcraft: The Police Driver's Handbook" as a starting point and unless you gain absolutely nothing from it, the IAM will have a lot to teach you, if you want to learn.
BTW, there are some "advanced" drivers who let it get to their heads, and there are many criticisms that can be leveled at the IAM. Nonetheless, I have far more respect (as a driver) for someone who is willing to try it to learn, and still fails to pass the test than someone who is unwilling because they think that it offers them nothing at all.

Mitch Connor · 28-06-2007 1:29pm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

All the info here: Irish Advanced Motorists

just had a look at the site there a minute ago - looks very interesting. Would love to do the course (would definately have to go for the mentor approach) but i think i'll have to wait a while - don't think i'd be up to it yet; i consider myself to be a fairly safe driver, but not all that good, there are some basics i have still to master. For instance, i can't parallel park (though at this point i don't even attempt it cause i don't want to hit anyones car by accident).

Might pick up the book the recommend in the mean-time, should be an interesting read.

MrPudding · 28-06-2007 3:49pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Surely an "advanced" driver would not be in an accident, or would not find themselves in a situation where they had lost control of a car they were driving???

So is there such a thing as an advanced driver or not?

I have not deon advanced driving but I have done advanced riding, of a motorbike that is. Though some might say......:D

I would say do it if you can. It has opened my eyes and make me a much better rider. Some things are very obvious but until they are pointed out as "a good thing" you might not do them.

I would say that the vast majority of drivers or riders, assuming they approach it with an open mind with the the belief that they still have something to learn will get huge benefit from it.

MrP

Darragh29 · 28-06-2007 5:52pm

SouperComputer wrote:

So Darragh29 are you basing your authoritive opinion on your experience with a single IAM instructor?

Yip. Once was enough for me...

SouperComputer wrote:

Although its highly unlikely that you will have a full system failure, the redunancy that you speak of isn't really effective. If you suffer sudden fluid/pressure (busted seal/damaged pipe) loss in the front circuit for example you still have the rear but the braking action is next to worthless in an emergency situation. IMO its almost as good as having a brake failure.

Not a big fan of engine braking myself, tend to use heel-and-toe.

The only reason I can see for sudden and complete/almost complete brake failure is a complete lack of maintenance on the part of the driver.

Your brakes are there to slow or stop your vehicle. Your engine is there to accelerate. This guy was slowing down from 80MPH to 15MPH using his engine and then using the brakes at the last minute, in my opinion this is downright dangerous, because the driver behind you doesn't know what you are doing, whereas if you were using your brakes, they would know exactly what you were doing. Another load of crap I heard from this guy was deliberately slowing down to below the speed limit in the area to build up a tail of traffic behind you. Obviously people cop that you are not keeping up with the flow of traffic and start tailgating you and flashing headlights at you. In this guys opinion, this is fine because if they crash into you, they are completely in the wrong and you have "time and space in front of you"...

nastysimon · 28-06-2007 9:54pm

Darragh29 wrote:

The only reason I can see for sudden and complete/almost complete brake failure is a complete lack of maintenance on the part of the driver.

Your brakes are there to slow or stop your vehicle. Your engine is there to accelerate. This guy was slowing down from 80MPH to 15MPH using his engine and then using the brakes at the last minute, in my opinion this is downright dangerous, because the driver behind you doesn't know what you are doing, whereas if you were using your brakes, they would know exactly what you were doing. Another load of crap I heard from this guy was deliberately slowing down to below the speed limit in the area to build up a tail of traffic behind you. Obviously people cop that you are not keeping up with the flow of traffic and start tailgating you and flashing headlights at you. In this guys opinion, this is fine because if they crash into you, they are completely in the wrong and you have "time and space in front of you"...

The IAM emphasizes the value of car maintenance and encourages people to do basic checks on their car before they set out on each and every journey, things like checking that you have enough fuel, oil, coolant, wash fluid, that your lights work and your tyres and wipers are in good condition. They also suggest testing your brakes are at least basically functional before you might need them. That said, mechanical failure can happen through no fault of the driver/owner. The IAM does not expect you to be an expert mechanic and the last time the car was serviced, it may not have been put back together properly, or there may be a design flaw, etc.
What you describe is not the general attitude of all IAM members I have met. They value making progress and while they may place their own safety ahead of others, they also place other's safety ahead of everything else. I can see how what they were doing might be misinterpreted by you to mean the above. For instance, using engine braking is generally encouraged, but only for gentle braking. This is done to preserve you brakes and it also means that you aren't slowing so quickly as to pose a risk to drivers behind you. That said, whenever I do so, I also gently rest my foot on the brake pedal which lights up the brake lights without actually pressing the brake pad against the disc (this only works on some cars). When you have to resort to using your brakes in earnest on primary rural roads, you are not driving as smoothly as you can.
One must always give oneself sufficient space and time to be able to drive smoothly and safely and if this means driving below the speed limit, so be it. You should never have to do an emergency maneuver. If this means that you will have a queue of cars behind, that may be to only safe course of action, though my opinion is that one should not only give oneself space and time in front but also do one's best to have it behind too so that those who follow you will be able to avoid you if you do need to brake hard (sometimes even the best drivers make mistakes). This is why I think that one should make sure that there is enough room behind too and this usually means letting those behind you pass if you are likely to hold them up for a significant length of time. Any IAM members I know agree that it is less than ideal to have others driving behind you, especially if they are anxious to pass.
BTW, if driving with the flow of the traffic is dangerous, then you shouldn't do it. If you want to be a lemming and do so, that's your choice, but it is not the safe one.

MrPudding · 29-06-2007 8:01am

Darragh29 wrote:

in my opinion this is downright dangerous, because the driver behind you doesn't know what you are doing,

IAM follow Roadcraft. Roadcraft uses the system of motorcycle / car control. The most important section of the system in information. This is gathering information and, where appropriate, giving information.

If there is no one behind you then there is no need to show you are slowing down. If there is a driver behind you and you feel they would benefit from the information, even if you are using engine breaking, then a light touch on the brakes will let them know.

The subject of engine breaking versus using you brakes is where I find Roadcraft and IAM slightly at odds. Roadcraft tells us we should really only use engine braking where there is a high risk of skidding, for example in icy conditions. IAM kind of prefer engine breaking.

I think this difference is due to what each is trying to do. Roadcraft is designed for the police. it is a very practical, efficient and safe method of driving a car or riding a bike.

IAM are looking for similar things, but they place a lot of emphasis on smoothness. By being in the correct gear and using engine breaking it is possible to have an incredibly smooth journey. I have no doubt that the same can be achieved with brakes, but it seems to be a lot easier without them.

I was out with my one to one observer last night and we were covering some very nice twisty country roads and I have to say I get an huge amount of satisfaction from doing a 2 or 3 miles section of road, with speeds varying from 20mph for some corners right up to the speed limit, without using my brakes. Don’t get me wrong, if I need to I will not hesitate to use them, but if you look far enough ahead and plan things correctly rolling off the throttle can be enough to get to the right speed. It really is very enjoyable.

Some people in IAM really like the engine braking thing, but at the end of the day you won’t fail the test for using them.

MrP

R.O.R · 29-06-2007 1:21pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Furthermore, how is a car behind you supposed to know you are slowing down, (but are not using your brakes), if your brake lights don't come on, as your brake lights won't come on if you are slowing down to a crawl using your engine and going through the gears???

Just had to take issue with this.

If, as you post, you are constantly observing all that is going on around you then you would notice that the distance between yourself and the car in front is decreasing and also take your foot off the accelerator to do the same as the car in front. If you aren't tailgating them then this works. Works especially well on motorways if people do this, cuts down the instance of traffic jams with everyone breaking just slightly more than the car in front so eventually everything comes to a complete halt - although this does presume that people are taught to drive by someone who knows what they are doing, rather than jumping in a car by themselves and guessing :rolleyes:

I haven't done the IAM course, but my Dad who's driving I observed for years before getting behind the wheel myself was a long time advanced motorist. I'd like to think I picked up a good amount of the techniques he used.

BrianD3 · 29-06-2007 2:10pm

As R.O.R and Pudding say, "engine braking" happens anytime you lift your foot off the throttle with the drive engaged. Engine braking doesn't have to involve slamming down through the gears.

If you are looking ahead you can often determine that you will need to slowdown/stop well before you actually do. Lifting off the throttle a time before you brake will do a lot for fuel economy and brake pad life and probably reduces traffic conjestion (less domino effect from brake lights) and stress for everyone. And as you're slowing down more gradually if you come across oil/ice etc. there is much less chance of losing control.

A big problem with many drivers is they go straight from the throttle to the brake and have no concept of smooth and progressive use of controls. The amount of feckin eejits I see flying up to T junctions with the throttle on the floor then at the last minute braking so hard that the ABS kicks in. They get away with it on a dry road but when they try to apply the same technique on ice they sail straight on

Darragh29 · 29-06-2007 3:27pm

nastysimon wrote:

The IAM emphasizes the value of car maintenance and encourages people to do basic checks on their car before they set out on each and every journey, things like checking that you have enough fuel, oil, coolant, wash fluid, that your lights work and your tyres and wipers are in good condition. They also suggest testing your brakes are at least basically functional before you might need them.

This isn't advanced motoring, this is ELEMENTARY motoring. This is my issue with these guys. They are really ELEMENTARY motorists who just like to talk a lot in my opinion.

MrPudding · 29-06-2007 3:30pm

Darragh29 wrote:

This isn't advanced motoring, this is ELEMENTARY motoring. This is my issue with these guys. They are really ELEMENTARY motorists who just like to talk a lot in my opinion.

There is slightly more to it than checking your car. :rolleyes:

That said, i doubt a large number of drivers even do what you think is elementary.

And Darragh, don't worry, we get it. You are an excellent driver and anyone even trying to improve or help other improve is an idiot.

Will you teach me? Please?

MrP

Idleater · 29-06-2007 3:40pm

MrPudding wrote:

And Darragh, don't worry, we get it. You are an excellent driver and anyone even trying to improve or help other improve is an idiot.

Will you teach me? Please?

tee hee.

The first rule of advanced motoring is to acknowledge the fact that you are in fact not a good driver.

You learn, every day, every journey, whether driving or not, from all your experiences.

Applying these experiences again out on the road is applying advanced driving methodologies.

nastysimon · 29-06-2007 5:59pm

Darragh29 wrote:

This isn't advanced motoring, this is ELEMENTARY motoring. This is my issue with these guys. They are really ELEMENTARY motorists who just like to talk a lot in my opinion.

I would agree that it is quite basic stuff, as is most of what the IAM teach. Even still, can you honestly say that every single time you set out on a journey that you have done all these checks? If you can, very few other drivers do and this is one area in which there is a difference between advanced and ordinary drivers. It is also one of the simplest such. There are a great many other areas in which they do things that most drivers do not (such as evaluating each and every hazard and making sure that they give themselves adequate time and space). This is why they are advanced, it is all relative and I'm sure you will accept that the vast majority of drivers are appalling, so to be comparatively advanced does not require any genius or particularly great skill, just a little applied common sense. The IAM does a lot of applying common sense.
BTW, if what they teach is not advanced driving, what is?

Darragh29 · 29-06-2007 6:16pm

MrPudding wrote:

And Darragh, don't worry, we get it. You are an excellent driver and anyone even trying to improve or help other improve is an idiot.

Will you teach me? Please?

MrP

No, I'm not an excellent driver, but I'm a safe driver. I also don't think that folks who want to improve their driving skills are idiots either. I do however take exception to individuals who appear to hold seriously questionable views with regard to how to drive, telling me how to drive. When someone tells me to use an engine to bring a car to a near stop instead of a brake, I don't think that is safe. When someone tells me that someday I might go to use my brakes and there will be no brakes there, what I hear is that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. When someone tells me to slow down and create a tailback behind me with a guy driving up my arse and flashing me, I don't think that is wise council either. I also think that driving a car is not as complex as those in the IAM would want us to believe.

Darragh29 · 29-06-2007 6:28pm

nastysimon wrote:

I would agree that it is quite basic stuff, as is most of what the IAM teach. Even still, can you honestly say that every single time you set out on a journey that you have done all these checks? If you can, very few other drivers do and this is one area in which there is a difference between advanced and ordinary drivers. It is also one of the simplest such. There are a great many other areas in which they do things that most drivers do not (such as evaluating each and every hazard and making sure that they give themselves adequate time and space). This is why they are advanced, it is all relative and I'm sure you will accept that the vast majority of drivers are appalling, so to be comparatively advanced does not require any genius or particularly great skill, just a little applied common sense. The IAM does a lot of applying common sense.
BTW, if what they teach is not advanced driving, what is?

My opinion remains that when you have reached a certain level of competency when driving, it really doesn't get any more complicated than that, you are a competent and safe driver. Some people never reach this level of competency, some people never learn to use indicators, some people will never be able to drive in a way which is not agressive. However a lot of people are very safe drivers. In my opinion, what the IAM have done is they have put a particular construction upon certain aspects of motoring theory with a view to making it look like you have to do their course to become an "advanced" driver, so that they can decodify what they have made complicated.

In my honest, humble opinion, if you are a safe and competent driver, you're advanced enough.

nastysimon · 30-06-2007 12:26am

Darragh29 wrote:

My opinion remains that when you have reached a certain level of competency when driving, it really doesn't get any more complicated than that, you are a competent and safe driver. Some people never reach this level of competency, some people never learn to use indicators, some people will never be able to drive in a way which is not agressive. However a lot of people are very safe drivers. In my opinion, what the IAM have done is they have put a particular construction upon certain aspects of motoring theory with a view to making it look like you have to do their course to become an "advanced" driver, so that they can decodify what they have made complicated.

In my honest, humble opinion, if you are a safe and competent driver, you're advanced enough.

I would have to disagree. There are very few safe drivers out there, at least in percentage terms. How many do you see tailgating (less than 2 second gap in the dry, or 4 in the wet is tailgating)? Or not turning on their lights when it is raining or the reasonably wet? Or using fog-lights when there is no fog? Or talking on the phone as they drive? Or gesticulating to their passenger? etc. As for ever being advanced enough, I definitely disagree. One can never be, one always has room to improve and it is a very dangerous trap to slip into. It is this complacency that so many drivers slip into, they feel that they're good enough and don't have much left to learn about how to drive safely. We all know the type as they make up the vast majority of drivers out there. Every mile should help you improve, every journey is one that you must learn from. I'm not saying that one should devote one's life to being a great driver, but just that one should use the time that one does spend behind the wheel and a little of the time one doesn't to improve as it may save your life, or someone else's. Being a safe driver is a skill that you learn and re-learn every time you sit behind the wheel.

MrPudding · 30-06-2007 12:55pm

Darragh29 wrote:

When someone tells me to slow down and create a tailback behind me with a guy driving up my arse and flashing me, I don't think that is wise council either. I also think that driving a car is not as complex as those in the IAM would want us to believe.

I have to say, perhaps you did not have a great IAM experience. Certainly none of the IAM people I know would have said some of the things your guy said. But, the above comment I find interesting.

I don't quite get it. You say earlier that he told you to intentially slow down to build up a tail behind you? Are you sure you have that right? There are reasons for slowing down to below the speed limit and to be honest you should not be overly concerned with what the people behind you think.

Don't get me wrong, you need to be considerate to other drivers, inculding those behind you who may be in a hurry and may genuinely believe that their time is more important than yours but where so you draw the line?

So you are doing 100kph a the guy behind you is tailgating you do you speed up to give yourself some room? So now you are doing 120, he is still tailgating you. What do you do now? 140? 160? Are what if you are simply driving at the speed limit and there are some tight bends coming up? Do you want to take the bends at a speed you are not comfortable with simply because you think you might irritate the driver behind you?

You should drive with respect and accomodation for other road users but not at the expense of your own comfort and safety.

If someone is tailgating you the standard response is to slow down. This is not to irriate the guy behind, it is to give you space ahead should you need to do something in an emergency. It also give the guy behind you a better chance of passing you. The best pleace for a tailgater is in front of you.

I hope you misunderstood what this guy was telling you. It does not make sense to me and it very different from any of the conversations I have had with quite a large number of IAM people. I am sure the other folks here with IAM experience will back me up on this.

MrP

MrPudding · 30-06-2007 1:09pm

Darragh29 wrote:

My opinion remains that when you have reached a certain level of competency when driving, it really doesn't get any more complicated than that, you are a competent and safe driver.

Drivers and riders of muchh higher levels of competency than you or I would disagree with this.

I have recently been dealing with some highly qualified and highly competant drivers and riders. One of the most inpressive was a guy called Grant Goodings. He is the chief instructor with Thames Valley police, RoSPA Chief Examiner, Manx GP winner and one of only a handful of people in the UK qualified to teach the RoSPA diploma. One of the thing that struck me most about him was his attitude towards his skills. He is a very very highly skilled driver and rider, but at the same time fully appreciates that he still has things to learn and he learns more every day. Listening to him talk really brought home to me the fact you never ever reach a level of competency and that is it. It is constantly learning.

From my point of view, even if that is the only thing you take away from advanced training then it would be worth it.

Darragh29 wrote:

Some people never reach this level of competency, some people never learn to use indicators,

Everybody learns how to use indicators. I doubt there is anyone on the road that does not know how to use them. People simply choose not to use them. Attitude.

Darragh29 wrote:

some people will never be able to drive in a way which is not agressive.

Not being aggressive is not something you learn. Again, attitude.

Darragh29 wrote:

However a lot of people are very safe drivers. In my opinion, what the IAM have done is they have put a particular construction upon certain aspects of motoring theory with a view to making it look like you have to do their course to become an "advanced" driver, so that they can decodify what they have made complicated.

To a certain extent I agree with you here. As an organisation they have to have "a company line." The company line they use is their version of RoadCraft. You are under no obligation to do their training. Read Roadcraft, practice and sit the test. Simple.

What IAM does is it takes RoadCraft and the system within and it teaches it to people that want to learn. For me it has been a very enjoyable experience, but then I have not met any IAM people like the guy you did. to be honest that might have out me off as well.

Darragh29 wrote:

In my honest, humble opinion, if you are a safe and competent driver, you're advanced enough.

But you can always be safer and more competent.

MrP

MrPudding · 03-07-2007 9:59pm

Darragh29 wrote:

One example is when I heard an IAM instructor saying that you should slow down your car with the engine and not use the brake until you need to stop, because this is a safer way to brake. The logic being that some day, you might need to use your brakes and you'll put your foot on the brake pedal and there will be no brake there.

I know this a bit sad but I have been giving this bit of thought, this is not normal, I just happen to have my test coming up.

I have to say I do have a bit of a problem with how you say this guy explained things, I don't really agree with it and I do not thnk he is doing IAM any favours explaining things this way.

So, anyway. Slowing down using the engine. Since I started by advance training I use my brakes less and less. When I was thinking about your comments I realised this guy has it the wrong way round.

He should not be saying you need to not use your brakes to be a advanced rider or driver but that as you become an advanced rider or driver you use the brakes less.

I went out for a ride with one of my colleague the other day. When we finished he asked me how come my brake light hardly ever comes on een in the twisties. Trying to be funny I said cos I was always doing the speed I wanted to do for a corner so I didn't need to brake.

When I thought about it is actually true. With the advanced training and using the system you will find that as you are observing better, planning more in advanced you just seem to magically always, or a least nearly always be in the right gear at the right speed. It is quite satisfying really.

Anyway. I hope that explaines things a bit better.

MrP

Darragh29 · 05-07-2007 6:23pm

MrPudding wrote:

So, anyway. Slowing down using the engine. Since I started by advance training I use my brakes less and less. When I was thinking about your comments I realised this guy has it the wrong way round.

He should not be saying you need to not use your brakes to be a advanced rider or driver but that as you become an advanced rider or driver you use the brakes less.

MrP

Sorry, I just don't get advanced driving. If you want to do an advanced course in getting from A to B, find something that is actually complicated, like flying. Don't just take something that is relatively easy for most people to grasp and unnecessarily complicate it and then go around saying that you're more advanced than others on the road who have the same safety and competence record as you have.

Another annoying habit that this "advanced" driver from the IAM had, was passing critical and downright smart arse remarks about every other driver that was to his left, right, in front and behind him. From where I was sitting, it smacked of an unbelievable arrogance, something I reckoned he took up because he had a little badge somewhere that said he was an "advanced" driver.

Wishbone Ash · 05-07-2007 7:48pm

Darragh29 wrote:

If you want to do an advanced course in getting from A to B, find something that is actually complicated, like flying

The most complicated aspect of flying is driving to and from the airport. Up in the air, you're with professionals.

Darragh29 wrote:

Another annoying habit that this "advanced" driver from the IAM had, was passing critical and downright smart arse remarks about every other driver that was to his left, right, in front and behind him

When I was doing lessons for the artic, my instructor used to say "Remember, you are surrounded by muppets out here!" or coming up to a junction/roundabout "Did you do your muppet check!".

nastysimon · 05-07-2007 9:45pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Sorry, I just don't get advanced driving. If you want to do an advanced course in getting from A to B, find something that is actually complicated, like flying. Don't just take something that is relatively easy for most people to grasp and unnecessarily complicate it and then go around saying that you're more advanced than others on the road who have the same safety and competence record as you have.

If it is so simple, why does it seem that most drivers are really bad? I don't mean almost ok, I mean really bad. What percentage of drivers check their mirrors before they brake at all? Every time? Or make sure that if they aren't going to overtake the car in front within the next few seconds that there is enough room for another to overtake them and comfortably pull in in front of them? Use their mirrors correctly? Check their blind spot for cars when turning? Refuse to talk while driving (not just mobile use)? Turn off the radio? Check their tyre pressures, lights, etc. every week? Etc. There are many bad habits that people develop, and just as many things that they should have been doing but never do. None of it is particularly difficult, but people don't do it and it leads to people dying. An IAM member should not only do all of the above but much more besides. It's almost like the difference between a trainee pilot and an experienced and well trained one.

Another annoying habit that this "advanced" driver from the IAM had, was passing critical and downright smart arse remarks about every other driver that was to his left, right, in front and behind him. From where I was sitting, it smacked of an unbelievable arrogance, something I reckoned he took up because he had a little badge somewhere that said he was an "advanced" driver.

Every good driver I know does this to some degree. Much of it is spotting the mistakes that they make and making light of it. It helps deal with it. The only people I know who do not commentate on other drivers are fairly weak drivers and often fail to see what the others are doing wrong. Just putting other drivers down because they are driving an old car, or a slow car, etc. and not for something that they have done wrong is a bit silly. BTW, I also chastise myself when I make a mistake. Even verbally, when there are others around.

MrPudding · 06-07-2007 8:05am

Wishbone Ash wrote:

T

When I was doing lessons for the artic, my instructor used to say "Remember, you are surrounded by muppets out here!" or coming up to a junction/roundabout "Did you do your muppet check!".

My direct access intstructor was a great fan of the muppet check as well.

Darragh, I understand that you do not get Advanced Driving. Believe me, you don't need to tell us, it is very obvious.

I can see that it is not for everyone. Some people are able to see that they are not perfect drivers and want to improve their skills. Some people might even think they are reasonable drivers, but still know they can improve. Some people are actually quite bad and maybe a little dangerous, but unlike many, are actually able to say "fcuk me, that was a but hairy, I better do something about it." Some people simply want to meet other people that enjoy driving a car or riding a bike and if they pick up some pointers along the way, bonus. These are the type of people that take up advanced driving.

Then you have people that believe they are already superb drivers, some of them might actually be right. You have people that think they have nothing to learn and there is no point in even trying. You also have people that are sh1t but don't care. These people will not try to improve and may even go so far as to try to belittle other drivers that want to improve.

I happen to be in the first group.

When I was going out with my observer we would do a section and then stop for a debrief. We would be quite critical of other road users where we had seen poor road behaviour. This is an important part of you development as an advanced driver. Once you pass the test the next goal is to become an observer and pass the skills you have gained onto others.

And yeah, sometimes we do have a laugh at the other road users. Advanced drivers and riders do think they are better than the vast majority of other road users. And the simple fact is that they are. They are more considerate that non advanced road users and they are also a lot less likely to be involved in an incident, this fact is reflected by the fact that Advanced Drivers get discounts on their insurance. For example, in the UK I got a 15% discount off my insurance for simply being a member of IAM. Now I have passed my test this will increase to 20 or 30%. Insurance companies do not give discounts unless their actuaries give them a damn good reason for it.

Even though advanced drivers or riders know they are better than the majority of other road users they still know they can still learn. In my IAM group we have a section for those that have passed the test. This section is designed to further increase you skills. The learning simply never stops.

It is actually a shame that you are dismissing this simply because of a single experience of someone who, TBH, I would have trouble listening to. I have direct experience of about 20 people in my IAM group and none of them are like that.

At the end of the day it is your choice and your loss. If you are willing to give it another go then you will never see the point.

MrP

here.from.day.1 · 13-07-2007 12:52am

MrPudding wrote:

So you are doing 100kph a the guy behind you is tailgating you do you speed up to give yourself some room? So now you are doing 120, he is still tailgating you. What do you do now? 140? 160? Are what if you are simply driving at the speed limit and there are some tight bends coming up? Do you want to take the bends at a speed you are not comfortable with simply because you think you might irritate the driver behind you?

You should drive with respect and accomodation for other road users but not at the expense of your own comfort and safety.

I am new to driving on the road. I have been able to drive for many years but only recently got my licence. (Im 21) This is my pet hate. I cant stand people driving so close behind me. Im not a nervous driver and I do feel im very cautious to all the "muppets"

but I really do feel like im irritating them and they are trying to goud me into breaking the speed limits when they do this.

As for advanced driving I can see Daraghs point - he detests this method for some people to use the course as a way to enlarge their "driving penis"? - "Oh look at me im an "advanced driver" im so much better than you," but it sounds like he had a bad experience with one instructor and he shouldnt base his opinions on this. I myself do think this looks like a worthwhile cause. I mean anything that can make people more aware/curtious/prepared, even in the smallest amount could save a life.

Thanks

*Wanders back to youtube or some other source to try and clearly learn how heel-toe (throttle clicking???) works and is executed, and if it is worth doing. And also to learn the benefits of engine braking Vs brake braking.*

Darragh29 · 13-07-2007 5:58pm

here.from.day.1 wrote:

I am new to driving on the road. I have been able to drive for many years but only recently got my licence. (Im 21) This is my pet hate. I cant stand people driving so close behind me. Im not a nervous driver and I do feel im very cautious to all the "muppets" but I really do feel like im irritating them and they are trying to goud me into breaking the speed limits when they do this.

As for advanced driving I can see Daraghs point - he detests this method for some people to use the course as a way to enlarge their "driving penis"? - "Oh look at me im an "advanced driver" im so much better than you," but it sounds like he had a bad experience with one instructor and he shouldnt base his opinions on this. I myself do think this looks like a worthwhile cause. I mean anything that can make people more aware/curtious/prepared, even in the smallest amount could save a life.

Thanks

Just because there are loads of poor drivers on the road, this doesn't make anyone who is not a poor driver an "advanced" driver, as the IAM seem to believe. Despite what the Insurance companies would have you believe, there are many safe, competent drivers on the road who have been driving safely for years without needing a badge from the IAM. If I was driving as the IAM told me to, over analysing everyone and everything around me, waiting for my brake pedal to fail at any minute, spending an hour driving around with someone else judging how they drive and how I drive, I'd have a fu*kin' nervous breakdown!

MrPudding · 13-07-2007 9:28pm

Darragh29 wrote:

If I was driving as the IAM told me to, over analysing everyone and everything around me, waiting for my brake pedal to fail at any minute, spending an hour driving around with someone else judging how they drive and how I drive, I'd have a fu*kin' nervous breakdown!

Don't worry about it, not everyone can do it.

MrP

FiannaGym.com · 17-07-2007 10:14am

Darragh, the point about IAM is that your not self evaluating. Which it seems you are.

So you might have your eyes opened if you do their course or even read their book.

Importantly, you have quoted an "IAM instructor" who has been talking rubbish and I would question if the guy actually is one. Anyway the conversation here about engine breaking just goes to show why you need to attend the course or read the book.

When having a discussion about a particular techinique, a good driver (one who applies the basics habitually) should begin with:
"What type of car are we talking about?"
"What is the goal of the breaking?"
"What are the conditions?"
and so on. I don't think you asked any of these questions.

So it could be that one person is talking about breaking in a Stiletto and the other in a hybrid and the other an articulated truck and so on.

On another point, if you bothered to read the IAM book, for your own benifit, rather than get defencive over what some guy said, you would know that the IAM absolutely recommend slowing down with the breaks.

Anyway, what makes IAM stuff "advanced" is the amount of effort you put into it. Driving by your recommendations (which are really good) is the basics done correctly, and for most people that is spot on, safe and effective. For others (like myself) they wish to engage themselves completely in driving. They concentrate harder, practice more and study driving to a higher level than most people. More than people who "just" drive safely and respectfully, that is what makes it "advanced".

For me, the observation aspect of IAM is what is most important. Being a cyclist (part of the most vunerable group on the road) I found I had already exceeded the IAM advice. However, when I talk to other people, even very good other drivers, I find their driving can go to a whole new level, even if it is only the observation aspect.

As for the particular techniques, for the most part, yes, thay are basics. But if you were and advanced driver you wouldnt be too concerned about them.

Safe driving everyone!

Peace

Advanced Driving Test

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