An end to gas being anyway expensive :)

ED E

Ok, you know how we pay €10.50 for a 400g tank of propane? Well an 11KG tank is only €26! Now I dont think crazy will be sticking an 11KG tank on the back of his precious but in the boot of a car....Would anyone here be willing to pay €5 for a full refill instead of €11? IF we can get this to work you can. We have got the parts but we are just lloking at safety.

There is a standard that all tanks are only EVER filled to 80% of their designated capacity(which is really much lower that there true one). We are just trying to find out 1, is that 80% of it liquid?(filli it with 100% liquid and a temp rise of a few degrees and you have one largemundo explosiano), and 2 how can we ensure that it is only 80% full?

Anybody got any info?
Cheers
LB

Harekin

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

Ok, you know how we pay €10.50 for a 400g tank of propane? Well an 11KG tank is only €26! Now I dont think crazy will be sticking an 11KG tank on the back of his precious but in the boot of a car....Would anyone here be willing to pay €5 for a full refill instead of €11? IF we can get this to work you can. We have got the parts but we are just lloking at safety.

There is a standard that all tanks are only EVER filled to 80% of their designated capacity(which is really much lower that there true one). We are just trying to find out 1, is that 80% of it liquid?(filli it with 100% liquid and a temp rise of a few degrees and you have one largemundo explosiano), and 2 how can we ensure that it is only 80% full?

Anybody got any info?
Cheers
LB

€11 for a full refill? Are you insane?

It would be a liquid in the can as its under pressure(quite a few atmospheres). It only expands into a gas when it leaves the can.

ED E

"Would anyone here be willing to pay €5 for a full refill instead of €11" you Muppet!:p

Harekin

No no man, I ment who charges €11 for a full refill? You mean a Propane cylinder refill?Ahhh....that my man would be extremely dangerous to do yourself, leave it to the people at Flogas to do it for you.

Fiach Dubh

Certainly would be handy alright. I have 4 propane tanks myself.

ED E

"No no man, I ment who charges €11 for a full refill? You mean a Propane cylinder refill?Ahhh....that my man would be extremely dangerous to do yourself, leave it to the people at Flogas to do it for you"

They arent comercially refilled, they are camping one and are "disposible", with millions getting thrown into landfill each year.

The danger is low as but the seals do sometimes go(indoors thic could be very dangerous). The seals leak due to the gas cooling. If you leave them for a minute you should be grand. For safety we would probably only fill a tank a few tanks(mark the tank after each fill). As I said we will be way below its maximum tolerence and we'll be testing to ensure they get as much as a new one. WE jsut have to get an 80% regulator...

bushy...

Would any other gases work well ( & not eat your gun ) ? BoC and similar do all sorts and don't charge for the tall cylinders ( less chance of them going missing)

ED E

Think Oisin said MAPP and other gasses dont work, though i'm not sure. CO2 works but i think it needs adaption(Its way more pwerfull!:D )

o1s1n

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

Think Oisin said MAPP and other gasses dont work, though i'm not sure. CO2 works but i think it needs adaption(Its way more pwerfull!:D )

Yep, the only gases that work are propane and co2. Co2 is more expensive so there's no point going there really.

ED E

Push you up to like 400 fps and we cant have that.

Fiach Dubh

Not to mention C02 would blow the weaker GBB's to shreds

Just caught your thread on Arnie's Lethal, wish people would actually read the posts over there, first two answers about how to use propane in a GBB, LOL.

bushy...

Have a look around http://www.bocgases.ie/ or your local friendly pub for CO2 ( I think theres a bit of nitrogen in the pub stuff too though).
The regulator joined to the pub ones drops it to probably something like 50psi but you can adjust it , if you look closely there is a tiny lockscrew to stop you turning the main adjuster

kdouglas

rather than refilling a 400g propane tank, why not fill mags directly from the 11kg one? not sure what type of connector it has on it, but if you could put an adapter onto one you'd be grand and it'd probably be safer than refilling smaller propane tanks.

o1s1n

kdouglas wrote:

rather than refilling a 400g propane tank, why not fill mags directly from the 11kg one? not sure what type of connector it has on it, but if you could put an adapter onto one you'd be grand and it'd probably be safer than refilling smaller propane tanks.

Well, as Lethal pointed out, no one wants to be lugging a 11kg tank around to skirmishes.

Paul mentioned setting one up at HRTA a while back. Should get on at him to make that happen!

Fiach Dubh

Was thinking that myself. Even if he had to charge say 6 Euro a refill for a little bit of profit it would still be well worth it for me. I've got a Maruzen Vz.61 Skorpian on the way I bought from a comrade on Red Alliance. Eats the gas like no tomorrow

ED E

Turning an 11KG upside down? dont thik so. Might be able to adapt it but the whole point would be we could keep using the 400g but pay much less for gas. With irelands weather once we fill to 80% there is little danger(Fill one in alaska then bring it to florida=150% cahrge(which probably actually wouldnt explode cause manufactureres leave huge tolerences but we wouldnt risk it))

Fiach Dubh

I feel much safer with the plumber propane tanks anyway, strong skin. Most commercial Airsoft gas tanks are stupidly thin skinned. A lot of them are being banned in the U.S. now because of it.

ED E

Fiach Dubh wrote:

Was thinking that myself. Even if he had to charge say 6 Euro a refill for a little bit of profit it would still be well worth it for me. I've got a Maruzen Vz.61 Skorpian on the way I bought from a comrade on Red Alliance. Eats the gas like no tomorrow

Cant say i like the look of it....
If we got it working we would probably sell it for a fiver a charge...

ED E

OMG those burnz tanks are strong. I completly emtied one then carefully ripped it apart today. To ensure there was no chance of explosion i drilled a hole in the side, that took a while...very robust. We need to know if the second valve is an 80% blowout valve...

Fiach Dubh

Damn, might want to read this, taken from Bernzomatic website

http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/jhtml/safetyWarnings.jhtml

PROPANE FUEL

DANGER: EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE. CONTENT UNDER PRESSURE.
Keep away from heat or flame. It is illegal and dangerous to refill the cylinder. Obtain a new cylinder from your dealer. Keep out of reach of children. Avoid prolonged exposure to sunlight. Do not store near heat or in a room used for habitation. Always close burner valve and wait at least 30 seconds before removing burner from cylinder. Always detach cylinder from burner when not in use. Do not breathe gas, fumes, vapor or spray. If inhaled, remove affected person to fresh air. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. For skin contact, flush with large amounts of water. In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice. When cylinder is empty, discard in a safe place. Do not throw in fire. Do not puncture or incinerate container. Federal law forbids transportation if refilled. Penalty up to $500,000 fine and five years imprisonment (49 U.S.C 5124).

o1s1n

Fiach Dubh wrote:

Damn, might want to read this, taken from Bernzomatic website

http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/jhtml/safetyWarnings.jhtml

PROPANE FUEL

DANGER: EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE. CONTENT UNDER PRESSURE.
Keep away from heat or flame. It is illegal and dangerous to refill the cylinder. Obtain a new cylinder from your dealer. Keep out of reach of children. Avoid prolonged exposure to sunlight. Do not store near heat or in a room used for habitation. Always close burner valve and wait at least 30 seconds before removing burner from cylinder. Always detach cylinder from burner when not in use. Do not breathe gas, fumes, vapor or spray. If inhaled, remove affected person to fresh air. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. For skin contact, flush with large amounts of water. In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice. When cylinder is empty, discard in a safe place. Do not throw in fire. Do not puncture or incinerate container. Federal law forbids transportation if refilled. Penalty up to $500,000 fine and five years imprisonment (49 U.S.C 5124).

Any idea if similar laws apply here?

ED E

Yes, but why do 5 american shops sell parts for doing just that. If properly done there is no danger. They say that because they would loose loads of profit from people refilling. In some place 400g tanks are dearer than 11kg ones!!!

Fiach Dubh

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

Yes, but why do 5 american shops sell parts for doing just that. If properly done there is no danger. They say that because they would loose loads of profit from people refilling. In some place 400g tanks are dearer than 11kg ones!!!

I'm not trying to dump on your idea man, just putting that out there. If you can get it to work I'll be the first to cheer

Fiach Dubh

couldn't say but they do say it's dangerous to refill the tanks. Of course they could be just trying to protect their resales but who knows.

ED E

o1s1n wrote:

Any idea if similar laws apply here?

Cant find anything, we comply with British Standard 5482 but thats nothing about refilling.

Fallschirmjager

this is beginning to sound like a 'hold ma beer en watch this' moment...

Fiach Dubh

Fallschirmjager wrote:

this is beginning to sound like a 'hold ma beer en watch this' moment...

ROFL

Tails142

evolution in progress;

We'll either end up with cheaper refills or smarter skirmishers

Rovi

bushy... wrote:

BoC and similar do all sorts and don't charge for the tall cylinders

My BOC Rental Account would beg to differ on that one.

nonex

it's againt the law to refill a non-refill cylinder under British Standard and irish.
it it is a refill cylinder , it has to be tested under British Standard 5045, and you need a dealers cert, if you take money for gas fills.
best way would be to buy a 35 liter cylinder at €34, that less than €1 a liter,
turn cylinder upside down fit a reg, hose, adaptor, job done and within the law.

ED E

Are you saying to fill mags straight from the tank Nonex? We could do that yes but lugging one of those around...not so easy.

What specifies if a tank is non refillable, if the manufacturer puts it on the lable? Because in actual fact they are easily refillable. Got any linkies to all the legal stuff?

kdouglas

Lethal: not exactly hard to throw a 35litre cylinder into the boot of a car, they're big, but not that big, and a group of people could share the cost of it

tbh, i think ill just stick with the 1litre tanks for now

ED E

Yeah, but my dad leaves in the car, but we could plonk it in the safe zone...still havent found an 80% limitor.

there are 4 of us but only 3 have gear and I'm the only 1 with a GBB atm, but my brother might get one as hes getting a sniper. So, those bells actually any good?

Fiach Dubh

If you know the PSI of a full tank you could probably use a gauge to insure you didn't fill it over 80%. No idea where you'd get one though.

nonex

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

Are you saying to fill mags straight from the tank Nonex? We could do that yes but lugging one of those around...not so easy.

What specifies if a tank is non refillable, if the manufacturer puts it on the lable? Because in actual fact they are easily refillable. Got any linkies to all the legal stuff?

yes you fill mags straight from the tank.
and all the legal stuff, you can see me and i will show you the markings on the top of the tank.

ED E

Fiach Dubh wrote:

If you know the PSI of a full tank you could probably use a gauge to insure you didn't fill it over 80%. No idea where you'd get one though.

No, we wouldnt. the 80% is 80% of the tank is liquid, doesnt increse the PSI i dont think. What they do with some tanks at least is have a spit valve on the top which spews when its at 80%. I cannot determin if thats what the second valve is.

Fiach Dubh

The more I look into this the more it just sounds too dangerous. I was listening to a podcast interview with the guy who invented the propane adapter and he talked about the 80% issue. Apparently it has to do with evaporation to condensation equilibrium, where the propane is doing both at the same rate and maintaining it's PSI (120 PSI at 20 degrees C) if the tank is filled too much with liquid propane the PSI will rise rapidly reducing the pressure tolerance to heat. A Bernzomatic tank is rated to about 50 degrees C but an over filled tank will have a much lower tolerance. The flow valve to release pressure may not help you during refilling if the liquid propane is introduced too quickly the tank may bulge or rupture.

He also told a story about how a guy left a green gas tank on top of his car during a sunny day at a game, stupid thing to do but it proves a point. The tank exploded of course and shrapnel ripped through the cars solid roof. Refilling a tank without the correct equipment could be like holding a hand grenade.

nonex

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

No, we wouldnt. the 80% is 80% of the tank is liquid, doesnt increse the PSI i dont think. What they do with some tanks at least is have a spit valve on the top which spews when its at 80%. I cannot determin if thats what the second valve is.

i think it boyles law,you need to read.
from my diving days
all gas will turn to liquid with temp and pressur.
just use a weight scales the big tank has to be upside down to fill the liquid in to the small tank, i dont think you wound get 80% in to the tank because you'd have to ven't off the gas as you fill it to get more liquid in,
thats how lpg for cars works you have a ven't at the top of the thank and you open it when you fill the tank, it lets the gas out to fill with liquid and when you see the liquid coming out you stop filling and close the ven't.

ED E

The trick togetting the full 80% is temperature
Put the one to be filled in the shade with wet towels and the filler in the sun. Changes the balance, then when the spit valve starts we cut it off.

Harekin

Also its illegal to refill the tanks anyways, they are property of the company who filled them initially and so they could take you to court for illegally stealing their money.

Fiach Dubh

Harekin wrote:

Also its illegal to refill the tanks anyways, they are property of the company who filled them initially and so they could take you to court for illegally stealing their money.

As apposed to legally stealing their money?

ED E

Harekin wrote:

Also its illegal to refill the tanks anyways, they are property of the company who filled them initially and so they could take you to court for illegally stealing their money.

THAT IS FOR THE LARGE TANKS. Yes, they are the companies propertie. The small one which i intent to fill are the consumer propertie:p

moneyman

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

So, those bells actually any good?

Finally got gas for it today (thanks Max_Force!), it stinks really, really bad but it's worth it. Although my first GBB, I have no complaint about it other than its accuracy. It's very heavy, full metal is excellent, nice crisp blowback and decent range for a pistol. The best thing about it is it's price. AFAIK there is no hop-up which is annoying, it spins off to the bottom left and isn't very accurate, although some shots go perfect. Well worth the money!

kdouglas

<OffTopic>
moneyman: might want to try giving the barrel a good clean, alot of clones have very dirty barrels when they come out of the box and this can cause horrible inconstistencies in shots
</OffTopic>

Found an adapter thingy online today which allows for refilling small propane tanks from larger ones (somone mentioned it in the thread on ASI that lethal started about this)

Not sure yet if ill actual use it, but ordered one to see what they're like, will post a review of it when i receive it, but it's coming from the US by ground mail, so will be a few weeks

ED E

Have found said adaptor on ebay for cheaper

The only prob is that is an american so it'll fit the 1l but not the larger tanks so I'll get an adaptor on a pipe.

whupass

they are called disposable tanks becasue they aren't designed to be refilled, i wouldn't recomend it and won't skirmish around one that has been filled

Harekin

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

THAT IS FOR THE LARGE TANKS. Yes, they are the companies propertie. The small one which i intent to fill are the consumer propertie:p

As said just before me, these are disposable tanks for a reason...I can see this all ending badly.

EDIT: Im not trying to start an argument, simply expressing my concern for your life and the lives of the people who use your refilled cylinders!

CrazyRabbit

I don't want anyone to go BOOOM, so please be careful!

Mark_Sc

nonex wrote:

...best way would be to buy a 35 liter cylinder at €34, that less than €1 a liter,
turn cylinder upside down fit a reg, hose, adaptor, job done and within the law.

Would you consider having one of these in HRTA at the weekends? Well mabey not inside because of the fumes but somewhere outside(in the shade) where we could pay for each refill? Or mabey pay extra at the begining? Im sure there would be a good system where we wouldn't have 3 or 4 people owning a tank and having to fight over whos had more and what not. This way you could make a little more money, people can still have really cheap gas and most importantly I wont have to find another 50 quid fora propane adaptor. But i'm sure you've already considered this.

And another thing is the propane adaptor. Will it be able to take the constant cooling, contracting, warming up again, expanding, cooling etc.?
It'll be getting pretty heavy use... Maby im just being silly though...

Shiva

When my disposable propane tank is emptied, its gets disposed of.

Aint no way in HELL I'm going to try refill it, or let anyone else try.
The warnings on the bottle are there for a reason folks.

ED E

Listen my dad is Uber safety concious and is not willing to take any risks. We are not going to do ANYTHING unless we are sure its safe. I've reading articles online and if that is a spit valve(determinig that now!) then as long as we disconnect it when it spits then I'tll be jsut like new. For safety there would be a limit to how many times a tank can be filled due to internal moisture corrosion(rust).