dangerous drivers

tabatha

a quick question. has anyone ever done anything about silly drivers? my husband cycles to work everyday and almost everyday someone nearly knocks him off his bike. i didnt realise it was so dangerous! is there anything that can be done legally of course!

Membrane

It is up to your hubby to change his riding style. Nothing that other road users do should be able to endanger him. You can't remove all the muppets from the road, or get them to change their behaviour, the only thing you can control is your own behaviour.

forbairt

I say report to the cops ... take the license plate number ( no idea if this will have any effect though )

I walk a fair bit and I find it completely ****ing ridiculous the drivers who just zoom through the pedestrian traffic lights here when they are orange / red ... (yes I understand that they can go through orange I just strongly disagree with the speed they are going through them)

Trampas

Buy him a helmet with a camera built in.

Then he can record all the crazy drivers and send the video to the gardaí.

Not even sure would that get you anywhere also.

BeerNut

Well, the wife is currently suing one, having secured a conviction for careless driving. But then he did put her in the A&E.

I think if you take their number and report them to the Gardaí they'll get a telephone telling off. But, in addition to what Membrane says, if he's almost getting a knock every day it could be to do with the way he cycles. Any examples?

oneeyedsnake

tabatha wrote:

a quick question. has anyone ever done anything about silly drivers? my husband cycles to work everyday and almost everyday someone nearly knocks him off his bike. i didnt realise it was so dangerous! is there anything that can be done legally of course!

Its not that dangerous,if you are careful, alert, and have some sort of cop on you should be okay most of the time.I have been cycling in Dublin and Manchester for the past 3 years doing about 10miles a day and have only had a handful of crashes,that said I did have one crash were I could have easily died.Even the best cyclists will be knocked off now and again, you just have to take the right precautions.

seamus

Although I would consider cycling to be one of the most dangerous modes of transport, I can't say that drivers nearly killing me is a daily occurrence. Me nearly killing pedestrians is, but luckily they're slow-moving.

If he's only ever driven a car before, he does need to change his riding style. You need to take a definite shift when you go from four wheels to two. You need to assume that you are invisible. Nobody can see you, and perhaps more importantly, nobody considers you to be another road user.

Having driven a motorbike for four years, cycling poses the exact same dangers, the only problem being that you can't accelerate away from them.

A few tips:

1. Look over your shoulder at least once every minute, to find out what people are doing behind you. This is scary as poo the first few times (you think you're gonna wobble off course), but you get used to it quickly.

2. At every junction, no matter what side of the road you are on, or it is on, prepare for somebody to pull out. As you approach a side road, look over you shoulder for vehicles behind you who may be looking to turn into it, and be prepared to give way to them*

3. When riding in traffic and you're overtaking on the left hand side, keep an eye out for gaps in the traffic. Cars will just launch through these gaps. Also be careful when undertaking large vehicles. Pedestrians may walk straight out in front of you.

4. Don't break red lights. It's just dumb.

5. If you need to change lanes, look over your shoulder and do it as early as you can. Always signal with your hands when doing this.

6. Give way to large vehicles - busses and trucks. If they're pulling in on top of you, it's because they can't see you. There's no point in being in the right when you're squished under their wheels.

7. Make a judgement call when overtaking busses alighting passengers. You may feel like a pleb standing behind a parked bus for ages, but it's even more horrible when the bus starts to pull off as you begin your overtake.

*I say "give way", not because you're required to, but because you may die if you don't. Some drivers will just pull across you, others will give you space. You don't get to choose which type of driver you'll meet next, and you can't change their behaviour.

oobydooby

where is your husband cycling?? It's not that dangerous to cycle here - fair enough you have to concentrate very hard in the city. Perhaps if he has head phones on and thinks he's a car he'll have trouble! Don't get me wrong - I'd love to educate many of the drivers on our streets but lots of people i know are scared to cycle because of stories like this and the dangers are exaggerated imo.

I'm 95% with you above there Seamas - I'd pick on your red light point (without starting a new thread which must be old here) but I treat all lights like a yield sign. If it's safe to go I'll go. I don't charge through a green light and I don't automatically wait for a red to go green IF it' safe for me and other road users if I proceed. It's not stupid, it's common sense.

pan

Good advise from seamus above.
I also find that when I'm rushing/speeding I tend to have more near misses and if that if I take it easy it's a lot safer. it's Logical I know, but being more patient around the city pays off!! You can always speed up when out of town.

tabatha

Membrane wrote:

It is up to your hubby to change his riding style. Nothing that other road users do should be able to endanger him. You can't remove all the muppets from the road, or get them to change their behaviour, the only thing you can control is your own behaviour.

pulling out on him at roundabouts for example is hardly his fault :rolleyes:

tabatha

ok, probably exaggerated a little....im sure there is an element of what seamus has said in there, like he has never driven a car before (he has been cycling for over 20 years). he has never ended up in hospital, thank god! but according to him it just seems to be getting worse. i know from driving how many muppets there are on the road behind 4 wheels. his main problem seems to be people pulling out on him at roundabouts. this seems to happen a lot. they just then "wave" at him after almost running him down. another big one are cars turning cornors and not looking in there mirrors. i should point out that he has lights front and back as well as a hi-vis backpack cover and does wear a helmet. no need really not to be seen!

DITTKD

pan wrote:

Good advise from seamus above.
I also find that when I'm rushing/speeding I tend to have more near misses and if that if I take it easy it's a lot safer. it's Logical I know, but being more patient around the city pays off!! You can always speed up when out of town.

Dunno about that. I feel a lot safer going fast. When I stop at lights, I have to get ahead of the car to my right, especially if they're turning left. Add to that, busses that have to stop every few hundred yards. And yee've all said that motorists just don't see you when you're behind them, they might see you when you're in front of them.

BeerNut

Roundabouts are a bugger. Walkinstown is the only one I ever do and it scares the bejaysis out of me every time. The key is to make it abundantly clear from your position and signals what you intend to do. It's one area where being a qualified driver and learning the procedure formally is very useful.

For cars turning left in front of you, you just have to expect that every single one of them is going to do it at any opportunity. Give them space and slow down to a speed that won't injure you if you collide.

No amount of lights and reflective clothing is going to make sure you are seen. In fact, it's possible that the opposite is true.

seamus

Yeah, roundabouts are a complete pain. As a car driver, I consider solid acceleration and progress to be one my biggest assets when approaching a roundabout. Since that's lost on a bike, I do have a tendency to just use the paths and avoid roundabouts as much as possible - particularly if I'm going uphill or otherwise can't move quickly through it.

Quigs Snr

You get an awful lot of clowns out there, most of them unintentionally so, many people just don't know the rules of the road and where cyclists fit into them (both motorists and cyclists are guilty of this). Seamus gave the best advice and I would echo it, just assume that everyone out there either cannot see you or is trying to kill you and you will be a lot safer.

I don't commute on the bike, I just train on it and I get more than my fair share of people pulling out in front of me at junctions etc.... I can deal with that but what I can't abide is those who deliberatley try to cause you harm, they are thankfully rare and usually boy-racers, usually 4 per crappy car wearing baseball hats and they are all comedians. A couple of weeks ago, one car load in a Toyota tin-can roared up beside me, tried to swerve in front of me to force me into a ditch, laughed when I told em where to go and threw a flashlight at me. Yes you read that correctly a flashlight. I was outraged, my race bike literally did cost more than this fools car. Unfortunately for these dumbasses, I was on my way to the start line of a race less than a kilometre away and was late, so when they got held up by the marshalls I rolled up beside them, clipped out my right shoe and ran my pedal cleat the whole way up the side of his custom paint job. Expensive, and not much he could do with about 50 of us there. Man it felt good. However I do not condone this as a solution to your problems, you might not have 50 spandex clad militants at your disposal to deal with the consequences !

Just be aware out there, cycle defensivley, assume like has said before that you are invisible and that everyone else is stupid except for you. You'll be better off !

E@gle.

the other day i was out on the bike and a driver passed me out and then turned left in front of me straight away i started shouting like mad while trying to brake at the same time they then stopped for a second and drove off. i usually give them the middle finger

Amalgam

Quigs Snr wrote:

Just be aware out there, cycle defensivley, assume like has said before that you are invisible and that everyone else is stupid except for you. You'll be better off !

I don't understand that view. I can't drive, so, I cycle a fair bit to and from work, Dublin out to Santry for a couple of years, more recently within the city.

I am ashamed at the attitude of a seemingly large minority of cyclists that have the 'traffic lights aren't for me' view. Lack of lighting, lack of suitable clothing (reflective strips etc).

The cycling experience is what you make of it, go around with a hot head on you and drivers will most probably react, what do you expect?

cyclopath2001

tabatha wrote:

a quick question. has anyone ever done anything about silly drivers? my husband cycles to work everyday and almost everyday someone nearly knocks him off his bike. i didnt realise it was so dangerous! is there anything that can be done legally of course!

It's isn't dangerous but the best attitude is to assume that everyone is out to get you!

Legal avenues are a waste of time unless you've got a serious injury. No money can compensate for an injury.

Assertive riding within one's own ability is helpful and maybe after a while he'll become more relaxed. For some of us, we've had 20 years or more to get used to the organised chaos on the roads & if you're used the the comfort of a car it can be quite a shock to experience the vulnerability of being a cyclist.

Stick with it.

Quigs Snr

Amalgam, you misunderstand me. Granted I did recount an incident where I reacted with a hot-head to a driver who initiated an unprovoked attack on me to impress his gombeen criminal wannabee mates and tried to twice knock me off my bike on purpose. Mea Culpa !

However, the statement you quote is more intended to reflect the view that you should under no circumstances assume anything on the road. Even if the driver on that side road is looking in your eyes as you pass you need to assume that they cannot see you and be prepared to react. I have had people looking straight at me, pull out in front of me. Much like when that car looks like its driving straight through the roundabout, you need to be ready for it to come your way without indicating. I clock up close to 8000km a year and that level of awareness is what has kept me alive to date. Thats all that is meant by that statement.

I do not condone charging around like an angry bull enticing motorists into fights ! It p*sses me off when I do see cyclists ride through lights, on footpaths, with no lights etc.... because that causes drivers to tar us all with the same brush.

By the way, apart from training and racing you wouldn't see me near a bike, I would drive to the bathroom rather than walk if the car could fit in there !

Marathon Man

Quigs Snr wrote:

Unfortunately for these dumbasses, I was on my way to the start line of a race less than a kilometre away and was late, so when they got held up by the marshalls I rolled up beside them, clipped out my right shoe and ran my pedal cleat the whole way up the side of his custom paint job.

Dude you are a legend. Those pieces of trash got exactly what they deserved. In fact they may have gotten off lightly. When Lance Armstrong and his buddy were out training they had a similar experience with a drunk in a pick up truck who deliberately tried to run them off the road. Lance called the cops and the result was the drunk was jailed for assault with a deadly weapon.

Membrane

Quigs Snr wrote:

I rolled up beside them, clipped out my right shoe and ran my pedal cleat the whole way up the side of his custom paint job

Whilst I sympathise with the anger and rage you can feel when you are deliberately attacked like you were, taking revenge is likely to make things worse imo. An eye for an eye is likely to end up with two people being blinded.

oneeyedsnake

I have literally been chased by a handbrake lock wielding maniac last summer in Manchester. Here is an account of the incident, I wrote it a few hours afterwards that day on my bebo blog.

While balancing my bike at a junction I had no idea I was blocking the cars behind me. Then I heard a roar from the driver behind me:” you ****ing little knob head" I considered turning around and exchanging expletives but I decided this Manchurian was worth the effort. So I cycled across the road suddenly I heard a car roar and tires screaming behind me, I quickly realised that this guy was some sort of nut case and hoped up onto the path just in case he tied to run me over in his fit of rage. As he pulled up beside me he vehemently informed me that:" I was ****ing dead" I looked over towards him, he was a skinny pathetic looking man, couldn’t have been much more than 5 foot tall. I thought to my self yeah I'll take him easy enough so I stopped beside his car said 'come on then mate’, bad idea. He jumped out brandishing a fairly heavy duty car lock which he obviously planned on introducing to my face. I quickly jumped back on my bike and in interests of self preservation made a bee line for the end of the street but the road was pretty long and deserted bar a couple of cars at a junction near the end. Soon enough the nutter was bearing down on me with no intention on stopping, I had to make a decision fairly sharpish, do I turn right and head down the one way street with the flow or do I turn left and go against the flow thus increasing my chance of escape but also risking hitting any on coming car head on. Ether way I was going to be making a pretty much blind turn at 30 odd miles an hour, I decided to gamble and swung a wide left and prayed... luckily the only on coming car was about 200 yards away so I hoped on to the path and peddled like a bastard, after a couple of hundred yards I looked behind and to my relief the nutters car was heading away from me, the gamble had paid off.

As if this wasn't enough some scumbag flung a metal bar he was using to smash the **** out of a car at my brother as he was cycling by a few weeks ago back in Dublin.

robfitz

OP I suggest that you buy your husband a copy of Cyclecraft, it is a book about advanced cycling skills. I would recommend it to any cyclist or someone thinking of getting back on there bike again.

tabatha

robfitz wrote:

OP I suggest that you buy your husband a copy of Cyclecraft, it is a book about advanced cycling skills. I would recommend it to any cyclist or someone thinking of getting back on there bike again.

like i have said before, he has been cycling for over 20 years, and cycles over 100km a week so reading a book probably wont help much, thanks anyway. i doubt there is much he can do to control dangerous drivers!

RainyDay

BeerNut wrote:

I think if you take their number and report them to the Gardaí they'll get a telephone telling off.

Try reporting them to Garda Traffic Watch line at 1850-205805. This means that the incident is logged on the system before being passed to the local Garda station (whereas I reckon that a lot of incidents reported directly to the local station never get logged). You should be invited to make a statement at the station, and the offending driver should then be asked to make his statement. The Garda and/or his Superintendent may then decide to prosecute.

Cabaal

robfitz wrote:

OP I suggest that you buy your husband a copy of Cyclecraft, it is a book about advanced cycling skills. I would recommend it to any cyclist or someone thinking of getting back on there bike again.

Got this book awhile back, thought I knew everything but to be honest there's lots of little helpful hints that can improve your cycling and make it safer

seamus

tabatha wrote:

like i have said before, he has been cycling for over 20 years, and cycles over 100km a week so reading a book probably wont help much, thanks anyway. i doubt there is much he can do to control dangerous drivers!

Definitely can't hurt. There's no-one alive who knows everything about using their favourite mode of transport

oobydooby

that looks like a really good book - I thought you were joking at first:rolleyes: can you get it in Easons?

souter

..lot of good advice, I can only emphasize cycle defensively.
Whenever a car has potential to intersect you - stare at the driver. You'll either make eye contact, in which case people are less likely to run over someone they have made some connection with. If you don't make eye contact, prepare for evasive action.
Other tips are are be a good citizen. For some reason car drivers are incensed by cyclists jumping lights. I don't think they'll make a conscious decision to run you you if they see it, but what goes around comes around.
Always signal, and clearly. Even if there are no cars about you're conditioning yourself, and there may be a car that has sneaked up on you.
And ultimately, discretion is the better part of valour. There are some right turns where I've lost confidence and I'll walk at a the pedestrian crossing - dismounted.
Saying all that, right turns at busy roundabouts are a bitch and lucky I don't have any on my r4egular commute.

Been cycling in towns on and off for about 25 years now. Touch wood but the only spills so far have been with car doors and black ice.

Radio Mad.

souter wrote:

.. For some reason car drivers are incensed by cyclists jumping lights.

And why wouldn't drivers be incensed, especially if they have a green light and, as quite often happens, a cyclist crosses their path after breaking a red light? It's downright dangerous and very, very stupid. Traffic lights are there for the safety of all road users, including cyclists. I really don't see why some people think they're above the law. Anybody crashing a red light deserves to be prosecuted. If gardai were more vigilant and stiffer fines were handed down you can be guaranteed it wouldn't be such a problem.

kincsem

I have three bicycles (?) but any cycling is just for leisure. When I started two years ago I went out at 21:00 in the evenings to avoid the traffic. It was just too dangerous before that. Now I get off the main roads as soon as possible.

I have had two minor crashes in the car in the last four years. The first was when a car in the middle of three lanes suddenly turned left across me (middle lane was road marked for ahead only) I was in the left lane, which had road marking arrows for left or straight ahead. The second crash was at a crossroads. I was on a main national road, when a car crossed the road as I was passing and hit me midships.

You have to realise that there is a very high number of drivers without full licences, white van drivers :eek: , mobile phone users, school run drivers, and non-indicating lane jumpers.

I would believe one dangerous incident a day if you travel by bike in heavy traffic. Try to avoid the main roads.

Ghost Rider

Traffic lights are there to address two problems: road accidents and traffic congestion. Both problems are caused, for the most part, by motorised vehicles, not bikes. To put it another way, the risks to which a motorist puts other road users by "crashing" a red light are considerably higher than a cyclist doing the same thing. That is why the fact that the same law applies to motorists and cyclists strikes so many cyclists as ridiculous.

At worst, a cyclist might put a pedestrian or himself at risk by breaking a red light. For that reason, the sensible attitude for law enforcement agencies would be to turn a blind eye to cyclists breaking red lights, except in cases where they have put a pedestrian or themselves at risk. Thankfully, that is how the Gardai usually act.

Radio Mad. wrote:

And why wouldn't drivers be incensed, especially if they have a green light and, as quite often happens, a cyclist crosses their path after breaking a red light? It's downright dangerous and very, very stupid. Traffic lights are there for the safety of all road users, including cyclists. I really don't see why some people think they're above the law. Anybody crashing a red light deserves to be prosecuted. If gardai were more vigilant and stiffer fines were handed down you can be guaranteed it wouldn't be such a problem.

blorg

Except a cyclist crashing a red light can pass the path of a car who has a green. I see this often enough. The car may have to swerve, causing an accident.

Personally I generally stop, _always_ if I would be crossing a road, although I do admit I often make a left turn on a red after checking that it is safe to do so.

Membrane

blorg wrote:

Except a cyclist crashing a red light can pass the path of a car who has a green. I see this often enough. The car may have to swerve, causing an accident.

What matters is does this actually happen in enough cases to warrant treating breaking of a light by cyclists as equally serious to motorised vehicles breaking lights. It doesn't, if it did Gardai would not turn a blind eye.

Hermy

The law is not something you can choose to ignore just because you cycle a bicycle. If we all obeyed the rules of the road the world would be a better place.

BeerNut

Ghost Rider wrote:

the sensible attitude for law enforcement agencies would be to turn a blind eye to cyclists breaking red lights, except in cases where they have put a pedestrian or themselves at risk.

Which would give the cyclist a de facto legal right to decide whether a particular instance of light-breaking is dangerous or not. That's a bit like giving a motorist a de facto legal right to decide how much alcohol they can have before their driving becomes dangerous. Road traffic law is the way it is for a reason, and cherry-picking it should not be tolerated. If it looks like the Gardaí are turning a blind eye you're just getting lucky.

Radio Mad.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Traffic lights are there to address two problems: road accidents and traffic congestion. Both problems are caused, for the most part, by motorised vehicles, not bikes. To put it another way, the risks to which a motorist puts other road users by "crashing" a red light are considerably higher than a cyclist doing the same thing. That is why the fact that the same law applies to motorists and cyclists strikes so many cyclists as ridiculous.

At worst, a cyclist might put a pedestrian or himself at risk by breaking a red light. For that reason, the sensible attitude for law enforcement agencies would be to turn a blind eye to cyclists breaking red lights, except in cases where they have put a pedestrian or themselves at risk. Thankfully, that is how the Gardai usually act.

With the greatest of respect, I think you're talking rubbish. Cyclists breaking lights put themselves at risk of being hit by whatever is coming the other way, be that another cyclist or a motorised vehicle. To suggest otherwise is just ridiculous.

I've no doubt that there are cyclists who obey the Law. However, it's plain to see that far too many don't. If a motorist was caught breaking the law they'd, quite rightly, be slapped with a few penalty points. Why should there be one law for motorists and another for cyclists?

Morgan

Ghost Rider wrote:

...a cyclist might put a pedestrian or himself at risk by breaking a red light.

Radio Mad. wrote:

Cyclists breaking lights put themselves at risk of being hit by whatever is coming the other way, be that another cyclist or a motorised vehicle. To suggest otherwise is just ridiculous.

Uh, that's what he said.

Anyway, that's why it's important to make sure nothing's coming before you break the lights.

Ghost Rider

Radio Mad. wrote:

Cyclists breaking lights put themselves at risk of being hit by whatever is coming the other way, be that another cyclist or a motorised vehicle.

I made that very point. Re-read the post.

Radio Mad. wrote:

If a motorist was caught breaking the law they'd, quite rightly, be slapped with a few penalty points. Why should there be one law for motorists and another for cyclists?

Because cyclists don't pose the same risks to other road users as motorists. Not even close. How many serious accidents to other road users are caused by cyclists each year? Bugger all, is the answer. How much congestion is caused by cyclists? Bugger all. Yet the law purports to regulate both groups of road users in precisely the same way.

True, it might be hard to imagine how separate laws could be implemented for cyclists and for motorists, but the difference between the two groups of road users can be registered on the level of law enforcement. And, as I said, that is effectively what happens. If it didn't, cyclists would constantly be getting arrested, and wasting a lot of police time in the process.

Ghost Rider

BeerNut wrote:

Which would give the cyclist a de facto legal right to decide whether a particular instance of light-breaking is dangerous or not. That's a bit like giving a motorist a de facto legal right to decide how much alcohol they can have before their driving becomes dangerous.

Not at all. And I don't for a second believe you think the risks posed to other road users by cyclists who break red lights are comparable to those posed by motorists who drink and drive.

BeerNut wrote:

Road traffic law is the way it is for a reason, and cherry-picking it should not be tolerated. If it looks like the Gardaí are turning a blind eye you're just getting lucky.

You might call breaking red lights on a bike "cherry picking" from road traffic law. If I thought you'd never jay-walked in your life, I might take that point of view more seriously.

Whether or not to cycle through a particular red light is a judgement call, like many other decisions we make in relation to the law. You may feel that we should be trying to build a society where the law is applied without intelligence or pragmatism - in other words, a society where we have no choice about how we treat the law - but I suspect you wouldn't want to live in it.

And, by the way, you imply that I ignore traffic lights as a matter of course. Not so. I happen to stop at red traffic lights most of the time because I usually come to the conclusion that it's the safe thing to do. (I'm also aware that even though most Gardai do in fact turn a blind eye, some of them don't.)

Ghost Rider

blorg wrote:

Except a cyclist crashing a red light can pass the path of a car who has a green. I see this often enough. The car may have to swerve, causing an accident.

It could happen, sure, but it seems equally likely that a driver will just hit the cyclist rather than endanger his/her own life or that of someone else. Either way, it seems like an exceptional circumstance.

Anyway, I concede there are risks. I just happen to think that there is a massive difference between those posed by drivers and those posed by cyclists in that situation.

blorg wrote:

Personally I generally stop, _always_ if I would be crossing a road, although I do admit I often make a left turn on a red after checking that it is safe to do so.

I think this is actually legal in some jurisdictions - and rightly so.

Ghost Rider

Do you jay-walk?

Would the world be a better place if you didn't?

Hermy wrote:

The law is not something you can choose to ignore just because you cycle a bicycle. If we all obeyed the rules of the road the world would be a better place.

cyclopath2001

Ghost Rider wrote:

I think this is actually legal in some jurisdictions - and rightly so.

It's allowed in New York (i.e. filtering right on red), but you must give way to pedestrians....and they do....even the taxis.

I don't think we're ready for it yet.

Cabaal

jay-walking is not however legal in Ireland and you can be fined 25e for doing it if a Gardai got off there arse and enforced it, also you can now be fined 150e for littering but again thgis is not worth **** because its not enforced

as we all know, laws are worth total **** when their not enforced

DITTKD

What should happen is that cyclists should be allowed consider red lights to be the same as flashing amber. It would be safer to go ahead of the traffic instead of mixing it up with them when the lights go green. That said, I always try my damnedest to stop at lights.

Personnally, I hate hate HATE when cyclists break the lights. I cycle faster than most people, not on purpose, its just that most people are slow, and therefore I have to overtake these light jumpers again and again and again, putting me into the traffic again and again and again. Why bother breaking lights if you’re going so slowly? (I realise I don’t have to overtake them, but jesus, I’ve places to be like.)
Anyway, lights are used to regulate traffic. They’re sequenced to allow drivers to travel through the city at a certain average speed. Therefore, there’s no point in breaking some lights, because you’re definitely going to get caught at a busier junction up the road. In rush hour at least.

Breaking lights is ignorant. It’s also extraordinarily stupid, selfish and pointless.
But the law regarding cyclists and lights needs to be changed to include a bit of cop on.

Ghost Rider

I know that. My point was that if you believe cyclists should never break the law simply because it's the law (rather than because it's inherently fair or rational) then, to be consistent, you should also maintain the same attitude to jaywalking.

Cabaal wrote:

jay-walking is not however legal in Ireland and you can be fined 25e for doing it if a Gardai got off there arse and enforced it, also you can now be fined 150e for littering but again thgis is not worth **** because its not enforced

as we all know, laws are worth total **** when their not enforced

Ghost Rider

How can you maintain this...

DITTKD wrote:

Breaking lights is... extraordinarily stupid, selfish and pointless.

... and this...

DITTKD wrote:

But the law regarding cyclists and lights needs to be changed to include a bit of cop on.

...at the same time?

cyclopath2001

By changing the way traffic lights work so that the priority is no longer the needs to motorists? By ensuring that the sensors register the presence of cyclists?

Traffic lights are primarily a way for motorists to impose order in a car-centric world.

Ghost Rider

Not sure I follow. What was that a response to...?

cyclopath2001 wrote:

By changing the way traffic lights work so that the priority is no longer the needs to motorists? By ensuring that the sensors register the presence of cyclists?

Traffic lights are primarily a way for motorists to impose order in a car-centric world.

cyclopath2001

Ghost Rider wrote:

Not sure I follow. What was that a response to...?

Your response to DTTKD.
While undoubtedly some behaviour at traffic lights is just plain selfish, I think there is a case to be answered concerning the way traffic lights are managed for the benefit of motorists more than any other kind of road user.

Ghost Rider

Maybe so. I guess it's a technical question and I'm certainly not qualified to answer it.

Anyway, I'd be inclined to re-describe "selfish" behaviour at traffic lights as "behaviour informed by poor judgement". After all, cyclists generally stand to lose out more if they cycle into the path of an oncoming vehicle than the driver of the vehicle does (though I admit there could be exceptions to this).

I've often wondered if people who are fully licensed to drive might make better cyclists than people who aren't. Observation and awareness of other road users is a big issue in the driving test, whereas it's all too easy to hop on a bike without any experience or sense of how other road users will react.

This isn't too say there aren't a ton of sh**e drivers out there. There are - but many of them are probably unlicensed.

I guess where this is all going is that if my hypothesis about licensed drivers making better cyclists is true, it means there should be some kind of test for cyclists. I can see downsides to that, though...

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Your response to DTTKD.
While undoubtedly some behaviour at traffic lights is just plain selfish, I think there is a case to be answered concerning the way traffic lights are managed for the benefit of motorists more than any other kind of road user.