Do people 'get' Poker?

Burning Eclipse

TheFlaps wrote:

The poker forum for one. The fact that it has so many posts about pointless random hands. Why not just have a lotto forum and we could all discuss our numbers from the night before.

This thread is inspired by some of the comments in the Most Hated Forum thread.

Honestly, do you understand the concepts behind playing No-limit Hold'em (or any other type of poker?)

For poker players, do the people in your lives understand your pastime/career?

The above comment shows a lot of ignorance towards what is predominantly a skill based game. Equating it to the national lottery is ludicrous! Not naming any boards users here, but we have many fine poker players among us, some whose main income is poker. One of the players recently won 32,000 in an Irish tourney. That’s a year’s income for a lot of people; he won it in less than a week. Was it luck? No; he earned it. And he's not alone.

For the people who write it off as being akin to the national lottery, can you imagine doing the lottery every week for 5/6 weeks in June or July and winning over €100,000 3 or 4 times… Welcome to the World Series of Poker. If it wasn’t a skill based game people wouldn’t consistently make a (great) living on it.

The reason I put the thread here is that it will get general public perception. So, poker players or not, how do you perceive the game?

TheFlaps

I've played poker before a good bit so I know what its about. Its 50% skill, 50% luck. Thats why the same guys never win or dominate tournaments like in sport. I actually like the game but discussing old hands on the internet is as boring as it gets for me.

jester77

I'm not a poker player but have a basic understanding of the rules and the only reason for this is that I don't have the time to dedicate to it. It's very technical (well to me as someone who knows the basics) and takes a lot of dedication. I admire these guys but I don't think I could ever make a career out of it. It's a high risk career and I wouldn't like to be on a bad run with next months rent due at the end of the week! Kudos to those guys!

AlmightyCushion

I remember reading some of the posts and the ones that hated the poker forum generally didn't know why they hated it or in some occasions hated it appearing on the homepage.

Unpossible

I usually poker once a day, but sometimes when she is in the right mood I get to poker twice


on a serious note, is hold em the one where everyone gets 2 cards and the dealer lays down 3 ?

patrickolee

Burning Eclipse wrote:

The above comment shows a lot of ignorance towards what is predominantly a skill based game.

Poker is predominantly a game of luck. In the longer term over many many hands an advantage will be shown, which indicates that there is a modicum of skill, but it still a predominantly luck based game. If you are a regular player and think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

PeakOutput

TheFlaps wrote:

I've played poker before a good bit so I know what its about. Its 50% skill, 50% luck. Thats why the same guys never win or dominate tournaments like in sport. I actually like the game but discussing old hands on the internet is as boring as it gets for me.

i reckon its 85% skill 15% luck if you examine the tournament results in the us say over a long enough period of time you would see the it is the same players dominating

this is back up by the fact that i have a small amount of poker knowledge compare to say my mates who i would have the odd game with and they have almost no poker knowledge.........i can win against them more than 50% of the time which implies it is about knowledge and skill and not luck

unpossible the dealer lays down 5 cards players get 2

homah_7ft

Shouldn't this be in the poker forum?

PeakOutput

patrickolee wrote:

Poker is predominantly a game of luck. In the longer term over many many hands an advantage will be shown, which indicates that there is a modicum of skill, but it still a predominantly luck based game. If you are a regular player and think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

maybe you have alot more experience in it than me but you are talking crap imo that is why poker is technically not gambling under eu law. one good hand of poker is luck but a good game of poker is skill

for the majority of players (I assume you and me) they rely on luck for people who know what they are doing they rely on skill

Fobia

Unpossible wrote:

on a serious note, is hold em the one where everyone gets 2 cards and the dealer lays down 3 ?

Dealer lays down 3, then 2 more (one at a time) for a total of 5.

theflaps wrote:

Its 50% skill, 50% luck.

No, it's about 80% skill 20% luck or something per hand. The reason top players don't consistantly win tournaments is that it only takes one big hand to go bust, so no matter how good you are, in a field of 1000 players you still need a bit of luck, no matter how skilled you play.

However, you must realise that top players do make final tables of the huge tournaments each year. And top players do consistantly profit in big cash games.
If it were 50% luck, how could this be possible?

Orange69

AlmightyCushion wrote:

I remember reading some of the posts and the ones that hated the poker forum generally didn't know why they hated it or in some occasions hated it appearing on the homepage.

That was my comment.. it stems from a summer spent living with a bunch of pompous poker playing MIT students in Cambridge MA.. Basically i have bad connotations..

But on a more reasonable level i do find poker utterly boring and pointless.. no offense..

PeakOutput

Orange69 wrote:

That was my comment.. it stems from a summer spent living with a bunch of pompous poker playing MIT students in Cambridge MA.. Basically i have bad connotations..

But on a more reasonable level i do find poker utterly boring and pointless.. no offense..

of course theres no offence taken accept maybe by, said pompous pricks, but boring and pointless is exactly how i describe football unless ireland are playing and even then.......

its just different strokes for different folks...........people who know nothing about it assume its like any other casino game people who know a little about it realise its so much more than that

Lola123

Don't understand it at all. I'm way better at snap!

PHB

There is still a huge amount of luck involved in poker, but it is possible to play the game perfectly and always win.

Jigsaw

I don't "get" poker but I wish to God I did I can tell you!!

I was in the PI forum a while back and a guy was asking advice on whether or not he was addicted to poker. Some of the sums he was winning were astronomical. Now of course he was losing a bit too but overall he was earning a damn fortune and him only 18 years old as well if memory serves me.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Lafortezza

Poker has paid for my car insurance and my holidays for the past few years.
I'm not even that good at the game, and I certainly don't put in the same number of hours as some people.

I think it's jealousy tbh, making money from poker is a skill and people who can't understand how to do it are very begrudging towards those who can make a living off it.

5starpool

PHB wrote:

it is possible to play the game perfectly and always win.

This is wrong.

Poker is a game with an element of skill and an element of luck. The skill element determines the edge that a poker player will have in a tournament or cash game. Comparing it to the lotto is pointless as you cannot be more skillful at the lotto than another player, but you can be more skillful at poker. There are lots of intricacies to the game that non players or even casual players don't recognise.

Unlike in tennis for example, you can take on the worlds best poker player as a novice and beat him, but because of his edge, if you played him headsup 100 times he would likely win 90 of them, whereas if a non tennis player played Roger Federer he would lose miserably 100 times and never even get close.

There is an element of luck, and there is an element of skill and I am not going to get into what % I think applies. In tournment form, and this is the most prevalent by a long way in the media, variance is very high due to the format of the game as it is designed to pressurise and get players eliminated. This increases the luck element as players are forced to gamble more. However, in cash games, where most professionals make their living, their edge is much more in focus and variance in lower, and over the long term, almost without exception, the good players profit and the bad players pay for that profit.

The beauty of poker is the element that anyone can have a big score, and that draws players in. Most players never win big in their lifetime, or achieve anything in the game. Most players though are casual players who enjoy the game, don't take it that seriously and just like to have a bit of a gamble on something they think they know something about, and that is what makes it profitable for those that continuously try to improve their game.

Jesus Wept

TheFlaps wrote:

I've played poker before a good bit so I know what its about. Its 50% skill, 50% luck. Thats why the same guys never win or dominate tournaments like in sport

lol.

TheFlaps wrote:

I actually like the game but discussing old hands on the internet is as boring as it gets for me.

Then don't do it. I'm a poker player but find discussing most hands fairly dull also.

patrickolee wrote:

Poker is predominantly a game of luck. In the longer term over many many hands an advantage will be shown, which indicates that there is a modicum of skill, but it still a predominantly luck based game. If you are a regular player and think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

lol.





You two would be most poker players favourites to play play againest, the guys who think it is mostly luck.

What table are you on?

---

To add something constructive:


Luck can be a significant factor over the short term in poker (mostly in Tournament poker), a hand, an evening, etc.

Luck has very little influence over the long term, i.e: months and years.

Most good/winning players will show a profit every year.

brianthebard

I like poker, and I know skill is important, but luck has as big a part or moreso than skill. You can't tell me that getting a pair of kings in your hand and another two on the table isn't lucky. The hands you are dealt are pure luck, coincidence, whatever, the skill comes in how you manipulate other people to make them believe you have such and such in your hand.

biko

I play with the lads every month but never really enjoyed the money aspect of it. I don't like gambling, the dogs or the ponies either.
Trival Pursuit, now that's a game!

skywalker

For someone who has never played a hand of poker in his life, is there a tutorial to show me the basics anywhere?

Preferably something in flash or interactive, rather than a 100 page rule document.

Hagar

I made a really good post on this thread a few minutes ago but the damn "database error" lost it. Take it from me though, it was one of the most erudite posts you would ever have seen on the topic. You would have been privileged to read it.

I should have kept a copy of it on file, in a filing cabinet.:o

Peter Collins

God it's spreading into others now!

Put this in the poker forum where it can be ignored.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

zuutroy

Its a game of statistics....Of course each single iteration is largely based on luck, but over 100's and 1000's of hands the skill shines through. Myself and Barry Bonds could face the same pitcher and both strike out, does that mean I'm as good a baseball player as him...No, because I'd strike out 100 times out of 100, where he would maybe 25.

5starpool

Peter Collins wrote:

God it's spreading into others now!

Put this in the poker forum where it can be ignored.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

I think someone must have hijacked your account as as sophistocrat such as yourself would not surely be seen dead posting on this topic. If you want to make sure you never go into the poker forum by mistake then post there and I can oblige you.

Burning Eclipse

Peter Collins wrote:

God it's spreading into others now!

Put this in the poker forum where it can be ignored.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

Sure thing. Makes sense really, like asking for peoples opinions of watching Big Brother in the Big Brother forum...

Honestly, do you understand the purpose of this thread?

It's to gauge the average joe's opinion on poker. You have shown yours, and rather eloquently I might add:rolleyes:

ntlbell

Odd,

I would of assumed After Hours was one of the most hated forums, it's very hard to find somewhere with such a high concetration of complete morons.

But anway

There's not that much to "get" the "rules" are fairly straight forward and you can quickly learn how to play, if you're interested.

People may not get how someone can spend 4 hours a day playing every single day, people may not get that it is not about luck, people may not get the fact you can make an awful lot of money make a career for yourself become your own boss and lead a very healthy well balanced life style.

Poker has paid for an extension on my house, sent me on holidays, it's just about to buy me a brand new car and introduced me to lots of different types of people I otherwise would have never met.

There's nothing to "get"

humanji

Oddly enough, I can only enjoy playing poker with people who don't really know how to play. I used to play a little with a mate who new loads about poker (he wrote articles about it and the like), and it was just so boring because he was always trying to win. I prefer when you don't bother with the skill and just have a laugh. Serious poke, just isn't fun for me. My loss, I guess

Mr E

I'm in the "Poker is 80% skill/20% luck" bracket.

Nobody has mentioned the math behind poker (odds, implied odds etc.)
There is alot more to the game than people think.

With lotto the odds of getting 6 numbers is 8,145,060/1 (I looked it up!), so there is no comparison.

Jesus Wept

humanji wrote:

Oddly enough, I can only enjoy playing poker with people who don't really know how to play. I used to play a little with a mate who new loads about poker (he wrote articles about it and the like), and it was just so boring because he was always trying to win. I prefer when you don't bother with the skill and just have a laugh. Serious poke, just isn't fun for me. My loss, I guess

nah, that's cool

The most fun I have at poker is the game myself, brothers, brother-in-law and friends play on Christmas night, where everyone is called to 'keep them honest' and we all take the p!ss out of each other.



Serious poker is a lot less fun, but pays the bills.

homah_7ft

Would I be wrong in assuming all the people who pay for holidays etc from their winnings are matched by the losses of others who strangely enough are not posting on here?

ntlbell

homah_7ft wrote:

Would I be wrong in assuming all the people who pay for holidays etc from their winnings are matched by the losses of others who strangely enough are not posting on here?

You mean the people who just have a constant never ending run of "bad luck" or the people who aren't "skillfull" enough to be a consitient winning player?

homah_7ft

My assumption would be in any grouping of players there are some who are better than others. What percentage of those playing make a profit?

PeakOutput

brianthebard wrote:

I like poker, and I know skill is important, but luck has as big a part or moreso than skill. You can't tell me that getting a pair of kings in your hand and another two on the table isn't lucky. The hands you are dealt are pure luck, coincidence, whatever, the skill comes in how you manipulate other people to make them believe you have such and such in your hand.

everybody has the same chance as everyone else of getting four kings..........its how the other players will play against you when you have those four kings that makes them good players or not

cooperguy

Poker is predominantly a game of luck. In the longer term over many many hands an advantage will be shown, which indicates that there is a modicum of skill, but it still a predominantly luck based game. If you are a regular player and think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Thats just not true. If you can read your opponents properly and play the game right then your chances of winning hugely increase. I know plenty of people who win consistantly you cannot do that if it is pure chance (unless of coarse you believe people are born lucky which is just ridiculous you can have a lucky streak but you cant be consistantly lucky).

5starpool

homah_7ft wrote:

My assumption would be in any grouping of players there are some who are better than others. What percentage of those playing make a profit?

It depends how you group them to be honest, although there are far more losing players than there are winning players.

Lafortezza

It's worse than a zero sum game, the casino or online poker site will take a small % of the money being played for to cover costs.

Estimates of % of players making a consistant profit range from 10% to 25%.
On the boards.ie poker forum I'd say that half the posters are good enough to make money over a decent space of time.

ntlbell

homah_7ft wrote:

Would I be wrong in assuming all the people who pay for holidays etc from their winnings are matched by the losses of others who strangely enough are not posting on here?

You mean the people who just have a constant never ending run of "bad luck" or the people who aren't "skillfull" enough to be a consitient winning player?

homah_7ft

ntlbell wrote:

Odd,

I would of assumed After Hours was one of the most hated forums, it's very hard to find somewhere with such a high concetration of complete morons.

But anway

There's not that much to "get" the "rules" are fairly straight forward and you can quickly learn how to play, if you're interested.

People may not get how someone can spend 4 hours a day playing every single day, people may not get that it is not about luck, people may not get the fact you can make an awful lot of money make a career for yourself become your own boss and lead a very healthy well balanced life style.

Poker has paid for an extension on my house, sent me on holidays, it's just about to buy me a brand new car and introduced me to lots of different types of people I otherwise would have never met.

There's nothing to "get"

I don't "Get" why those who are winning who must be a significant minority are the ones who are posting here. Well actually I do.

Burning Eclipse

ntlbell wrote:

Odd,

I would of assumed After Hours was one of the most hated forums, it's very hard to find somewhere with such a high concetration of complete morons.

But anway

There's not that much to "get" the "rules" are fairly straight forward and you can quickly learn how to play, if you're interested.

People may not get how someone can spend 4 hours a day playing every single day, people may not get that it is not about luck, people may not get the fact you can make an awful lot of money make a career for yourself become your own boss and lead a very healthy well balanced life style.

Poker has paid for an extension on my house, sent me on holidays, it's just about to buy me a brand new car and introduced me to lots of different types of people I otherwise would have never met.

There's nothing to "get"

Essentially what I wanted to ask, but too long for the title of a thread.

Back on the skill/luck debate. Over a period of about 2 months in college (march/april) I played about 6 games with a group of friends. Usually 6 handed. It was a tenner to play, just a fun home game. I won every game. Was I lucky that over 2 months I won every home game I played? No, I could read the people I played with and understood the concepts of pot odds and percentages better than them. Is it luck that over the last year I've won more money from poker than lost? The answer is fairly obvious.

PeakOutput

homah_7ft wrote:

Well actually I do.

feel free to share

homah_7ft

PeakOutput wrote:

feel free to share

It's what's known as a nonresponsive bias.

PeakOutput

ah ok i thought u were gonna say they post here to up their ego and they are not actually winners or something like that nvm

AmarilloFats

the hilarious ignorance and derived prejudices regarding poker are absolutely essential for the poker hierarchy to exist as it does...

It's all luck..Come play.

Oh and modern medicine is a hoax...Im entitled to my point of view(since when has ignorance been a point of view!!??) as i once beat granny outta €10 playing operation on the kitchen table...

ntlbell

homah_7ft wrote:

It's what's known as a nonresponsive bias.

I don't see your point.

Do people lose money player poker? Yes, the majority lose, a % break even and a small % are winning players.

But I'm still failing to see your point.

Cianos

I'm a professional poker player, have been for about 2.5 years. It's not a luck game believe me.

I just am very grateful that most people THINK its a luck game.

For a strong player, (moreso cash game as opposed to tournament), it is almost 100% skill.

I play thousands of hands in a day, a few days a week. The luck element is quashed when you are playing in this kind of volume.

johnp

TheFlaps wrote:

I've played poker before a good bit so I know what its about. Its 50% skill, 50% luck. Thats why the same guys never win or dominate tournaments like in sport. I actually like the game but discussing old hands on the internet is as boring as it gets for me.

I'd say the % skill is higher than that. That's why the same guys are always there at the end of tounaments, are minted and are famous
Also if you have a more experienced player playing a less experienced player the skill % will go even higher.

If you're telling me that you (or I) are 50/50 against Ivey, Negreanu, Hansen or any of the others, you're sadly mistaken and they'd love to be seated beside you.

johnp

Cianos wrote:

I'm a professional poker player, have been for about 2.5 years. It's not a luck game believe me.

I just am very grateful that most people THINK its a luck game.

For a strong player, (moreso cash game as opposed to tournament), it is almost 100% skill.

I play thousands of hands in a day, a few days a week. The luck element is quashed when you are playing in this kind of volume.

Yup, and the more the merrier

johnp

skywalker wrote:

For someone who has never played a hand of poker in his life, is there a tutorial to show me the basics anywhere?

Preferably something in flash or interactive, rather than a 100 page rule document.

Here's a Youtube on Texas Holdem from Howard Lederer. Part 1 of 10. The 1st should give you an idea of how to get started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-A7TueRwcg&mode=related&search=

RoadSweeper

online poker is rigged.