The US approach to underage drinking

jimi_t

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/08/AR2007060802795.html

washingtonpost wrote:

CHARLOTTESVILLE -- Ryan Kenty, 20, and his brother Brandon, still a sophomore in high school, plan to drive their mother to jail Monday morning before heading back to her rented apartment to move the rest of her belongings into storage.

Their mom, Elisa Kelly, and her ex-husband, George Robinson, are paying the price for hosting Ryan's 16th birthday party -- more than two years in jail each. Ryan had asked his mother to buy his friends some beer and wine, as long as they all spent the night.

Brandon,and Ryan Kenty will drive their mother, Elisa Kelly, to jail Monday, when she is to start a 27-month sentence for providing alcohol at Ryan's 16th birthday party in 2002.

"No one left the party," said Kelly, 42, who collected car keys that night almost five years ago to prevent anyone from leaving. "No one was hurt. No one drove anywhere. I really don't think I deserve to go to jail for this long."

But Albemarle County Commonwealth's Attorney James L. Camblos III, who prosecuted the parents, said it was the worst case of underage drinking he has had to deal with in 15 years. "Not only were they serving alcohol to 15- and 16-year-olds, they misled parents who called to ask about alcohol, and they tried to get the kids to cover it up after police got there," Camblos said.

In this season of senior proms and graduation parties, the story of the couple is a cautionary tale for parents if they plan to serve alcohol -- or look the other way. It comes at a time of increased concern about the effects of drinking and driving and underage binge drinking, which is on the rise. Although 27-month sentences are rare, parents are increasingly being held criminally responsible for underage drinking under their roofs, even if they are not aware that it is going on.

"In a lot of cases, the parents are the problem," said Diane Eckert, a prevention specialist in the Safe and Drug-Free Youth section of Fairfax County schools. "The majority of our youth say they obtain their alcohol in their parents' homes."

Eckert recently helped launch an awareness campaign in the county called Parents Who Host Lose the Most. She said parents have to realize that it is illegal for those under 21 to drink and against the law for adults to provide them with alcohol.

"A lot of our parents were able to drink when they were 18, and we're in a culture that endorses drinking as a rite of passage," Eckert said.

Kelly and Robinson -- the boys' stepfather -- were charged with nine misdemeanor counts each of contributing to the delinquency of a minor resulting from the August 2002 backyard birthday bash. Both were originally sentenced to eight years, but the sentences were reduced to 27 months. The case was appealed to the Virginia Supreme Court and then the U.S. Supreme Court, which recently declined to hear it.

Robinson's attorney, Jonathan Wren, called the jail time the "harshest sentence of its kind by a long shot." Wren said his client declined to comment.

About 30 kids were at the Robinson property on remote Bleak House Road in Earlysville, Va., when police arrived about 11 p.m. after receiving a call about underage drinking. Many of the kids scattered into the nearby woods after one of them yelled, "Cops!"

The couple initially were charged with 16 misdemeanor counts, but seven of the partygoers had no alcohol in their systems. Of the nine who did, all were below the legal limit for intoxication, according to Wren.

This should be linked to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055107155

Anyway if the parents had given them guns it would have probably been OK:rolleyes:

Sam Vimes

Deleted User wrote:

This should be linked to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055107155

Anyway if the parents had given them guns it would have probably been OK:rolleyes:

yes they would indeed have been fine.

in the time since that night, her husband has left her, her son has dropped out of school and someone burned her house down because she did this. unfortunate lady

ballooba

Bit nuts, but better than our approach to underage drinking (i.e. nothing).

Sam Vimes

ballooba wrote:

Bit nuts, but better than our approach to underage drinking (i.e. nothing).

something is not always better than nothing, especially when that something is nuts as you say

ballooba

Commander Vimes wrote:

something is not always better than nothing, especially when that something is nuts as you say

If they saw our binge drinking culture, they would say it's nuts too.

I'm sure there's a middle ground.

jimi_t

ballooba wrote:

Bit nuts, but better than our approach to underage drinking (i.e. nothing).

How is jailing a women for nearly two and a half years (down from eight!), resulting in her losing her house, her job, her son dropping out of high school and, indirectly, leading to her separation from her husband a remotely acceptable approach to dealing with underage drinking?

This is completely asides to any other issues I may have with the US policy on letting someone vote, marry and own a handgun three years before they can drink and how this could feasibly lead to irresponsible and dangerous drinking habits in later life.

jimi_t

ballooba wrote:

If they saw our binge drinking culture, they would say it's nuts too.

Two words: Frat Parties.

I'm sure if you got the statistics of alcohol related poisonings/deaths on a proportionate american college campus and compared them to UCD/UCC/DCU they'd be more favourable towards the Irish students.

ballooba

jimi_t wrote:

How is jailing a women for nearly two and a half years (down from eight!), resulting in her losing her house, her job, her son dropping out of high school and, indirectly, leading to her separation from her husband a remotely acceptable approach to dealing with underage drinking?

The only thing the state was responsible for was the jail sentence. The rest as you said was indirect.

A two year sentence as I said, is better than doing nothing. Out of 11 children before our courts yesterday, only 5 had parents present.

jimi_t wrote:

Two words: Frat Parties.

I'm sure if you got the statistics of alcohol related poisonings/deaths on a proportionate american college campus and compared them to UCD/UCC/DCU they'd be more favourable towards the Irish students.

I'm glad you're sure. I love when people make assumptions with no basis whatsoever other than what you have seen on tv possibly.

Even if they are any worse than our students, our problems go far beyond university campuses.

BaZmO*

They'll give you a gun and send to war to kill people when you're 17 but you have to wait until you're 21 to get a drink in the country that you're fighting for. hmmm....

kevmy

ballooba wrote:

A two year sentence as I said, is better than doing nothing. Out of 11 children before our courts yesterday, only 5 had parents present.

No it's not it's way over the top and will only encourage drinking to go underground rather than doing it in a responsible and reasonable manner with adult supervison. Teenagers will always drink, it's just a fact. They should be educated to dangers, given options of doing other things and have a more open relationship with their parents regarding drink. That would reduce the level of underage drinking, locking their people's parents is not the answer.

ballooba

kevmy wrote:

No it's not it's way over the top and will only encourage drinking to go underground rather than doing it in a responsible and reasonable manner with adult supervison.

The Irish version of that is having an adult there to clean up the puke and drive you to hospital if you need to go to have your stomach pumped.

kevmy wrote:

Teenagers will always drink, it's just a fact. They should be educated to dangers, given options of doing other things and have a more open relationship with their parents regarding drink. That would reduce the level of underage drinking, locking their people's parents is not the answer.

That sounds suspiciously like doing something.

These kids were 16, they're not fully grown. Messing with substances is not really a good idea at that stage.

jimi_t

ballooba wrote:

The only thing the state was responsible for was the jail sentence. The rest as you said was indirect.

I don't know, regardless of the degree of accountability, if the punishment hadn't been as severe and as public as it was, it is fairly probable and feasible that none of that would have happened - and thats really what matters.

A two year sentence as I said, is better than doing nothing. Out of 11 children before our courts yesterday, only 5 had parents present.

Before our courts for what; in what context. What does this have to do with the case in question?

I'm glad you're sure. I love when people make assumptions with no basis whatsoever other than what you have seen on tv possibly.

All my assumptions are based on anecdotal evidence from several close friends of mine who are currently studying in a range of american colleges across the US and the experiences of many US erasmus students I have worked/studied with. Similarly, I love when people make snide remarks attacking the opinions of other people without providing evidence or so much as an explanation to the contrary.

5starpool

ballooba wrote:

These kids were 16, they're not fully grown. Messing with substances is not really a good idea at that stage.

How is the view from your moral highground there?

That is one of the most ridiculous court cases I have ever heard of.

ballooba

5starpool wrote:

How is the view from your moral highground there?

That is one of the most ridiculous court cases I have ever heard of.

How am I taking the moral high ground? Did I suggest that I somehow better than these people? Open your mind before you open your mouth.

In many european countries, parents educate their children to drink sensibly from an early age.
Perhaps that what these parents were doing, rather than letting the kids go off to a bus shelter and get P!ssed.
In those countries there is virtually no binge drinking.

5starpool

ballooba wrote:

How am I taking the moral high ground? Did I suggest that I somehow better than these people? Open your mind before you open your mouth.

You are saying that there are worse things to do than send this mother to jail when she was trying to supervise an activity she knew would happen unsupervised if she did not do it, and also saying that 16 year olds are kids who are too irresponsible and young to drink. That kind of "They did wrong, and must be punished" attitude is the moral high ground if you ask me.

Do you drink? If so, did you drink before you were 16? Do you think countries such as Spain, where the legal drinking age is 16, or France where lots of teenagers have a glass of wine with evening dinner are irresponsible and should be brought before the Europena Court of Human Rights for allowing children to be plied with abusive substances by adults who deserve jail sentences?

What the woman in the case did may have been illegal, and not ideal, but it sounds like there was method to her madness.

ballooba

jimi_t wrote:

I don't know, regardless of the degree of accountability, if the punishment hadn't been as severe and as public as it was, it is fairly probable and feasible that none of that would have happened - and thats really what matters.

Because people always take the law into their own hands after public trials. :rolleyes:

jimi_t wrote:

Before our courts for what; in what context. What does this have to do with the case in question?

This is an example of US courts holding parents responsible for there children. The sentence may seem severe. Our cultutre would seem very strange to people in that state. Who's right? Both societies have their problems.

jimi_t wrote:

All my assumptions are based on anecdotal evidence from several close friends of mine who are currently studying in a range of american colleges across the US and the experiences of many US erasmus students I have worked/studied with. Similarly, I love when people make snide remarks attacking the opinions of other people without providing evidence or so much as an explanation to the contrary.

I have direct experience of binge drinking culture in Ireland. I also have direct experience of what happens when you put Irish binge drinkers in a major US city. They end up in custody and then in court.

5starpool

You just get better and better!!!!!

ballooba wrote:

This is an example of US courts holding parents responsible for there children. The sentence may seem severe. Our cultutre would seem very strange to people in that state. Who's right? Both societies have their problems.

It was the adult on trial in this US case for something they did, not being held responsible for something their kid did. This is totally different, surely even you can see this????

ballooba wrote:

I have direct experience of binge drinking culture in Ireland. I also have direct experience of what happens when you put Irish binge drinkers in a major US city. They end up in custody and then in court.

Generalisations FTW!!!!! How many people travel from Ireland to the US every year? How many are binge drinkers by the technical definition (I would guess a very high %). How many end up in court? I have been to the US a number of times, I technically binge drink, I have never been in court. Your examples and thinking are atypical of your posts in this thread i.e. ridiculous.

ballooba

5starpool wrote:

You are saying that there are worse things to do than send this mother to jail when she was trying to supervise an activity she knew would happen unsupervised if she did not do it, and also saying that 16 year olds are kids who are too irresponsible and young to drink. That kind of "They did wrong, and must be punished" attitude is the moral high ground if you ask me.

I didn't ask you. Also, it wouldn't have happened anyway because in the US you can't buy alcohol as an underager. If you do and are caught someone will be punished, severely. I never said I shouldn't also be punished for doing wrong things. I never said I don't do wrong. That would be taking the moral high ground.

5starpool wrote:

Do you drink? If so, did you drink before you were 16? Do you think countries such as Spain, where the legal drinking age is 16, or France where lots of teenagers have a glass of wine with evening dinner are irresponsible and should be brought before the Europena Court of Human Rights for allowing children to be plied with abusive substances by adults who deserve jail sentences?

Yes I did drink illegally. I wish I had a more responsible attitiude to alcohol growing up. That was the culture I grew up in. We are not Spain. We do not have a glass of wine with dinner. Our streets and A&E departments are full of drunk 14 to 16 year olds on Junior Cert night.

5starpool wrote:

What the woman in the case did may have been illegal, and not ideal, but it sounds like there was method to her madness.

She went against the wishes of the other parents for one thing. Those kids were her responsibility, she let the other parents down and breached their trust.

ballooba

5starpool wrote:

You just get better and better!!!!!

Thanks.

5starpool wrote:

It was the adult on trial in this US case for something they did, not being held responsible for something their kid did. This is totally different, surely even you can see this????

Even I can see that the parent was punsihed for doing something irresponsible with regard to their child i.e. not taking proper responsibility for their duty of càre to their child.

5starpool wrote:

Generalisations FTW!!!!! How many people travel from Ireland to the US every year? How many are binge drinkers by the technical definition (I would guess a very high %). How many end up in court? I have been to the US a number of times, I technically binge drink, I have never been in court. Your examples and thinking are atypical of your posts in this thread i.e. ridiculous.

I didn't generalise, I spoke of my experiences in one major city. We had constant contact from the police. Every night pretty much. This versus anecdotal evidence of someone who has a few mates in college in the states and talks about frat boys to them. Primary evidence is better than secondary or tertiary any day.

The United States has fifty states each with their own attitudes, beliefs and values. Indeed these vary from county to county and city to city. An experience in one part of the US does not necessarily correlate with on in another.

Jesus.. almost an 8 year sentence for giving alcoholic drinks to a minor.. and yet there are some horrible people getting away with a lot worse.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

Jesus.. almost an 8 year sentence for giving alcoholic drinks to a minor.. and yet there are some horrible people getting away with a lot worse.

Yeah, things like those we read every day in our country as a result of drink culture. Murders, assaults, fatal RTAs, health problems, rapes. Isn't it a great little country.

BaZmO*

ballooba wrote:

Yeah, things like those we read every day in our country as a result of drink culture. Murders, assaults, fatal RTAs, health problems, rapes. Isn't it a great little country.

Yeah, how dare someone accuse you of taking the moral high ground! :rolleyes:

ballooba

BaZmO* wrote:

Yeah, how dare someone accuse you of taking the moral high ground! :rolleyes:

If I'm taking the moral high ground, which I don't agree that I am, then the other posters here are taking the moral high ground in saying that the US is worse than us.

God forbid someone might speak against the "session" culture. I'm sorry we're great. We should export our drink culture worldwide. I'll prepare the memo.

Acid_Violet

ballooba wrote:

Yeah, things like those we read every day in our country as a result of drink culture. Murders, assaults, fatal RTAs, health problems, rapes. Isn't it a great little country.

Yes because all of those things happen directly because of binge drinking.:rolleyes:

Mind, I agree with you that most under-age drinkers are stupid and irresponsible. I'm under-age and I drink, (shock horror!) but I know I'm a light-weight and know exactly when to stop. Most people I know simply shouldn't drink for obvious reasons (black out, not at all in control of themselves, violence etc.) and most people my age that I know are completely irresponsible with their health in general, unfortunately. But so are adults. For a change to come about society's whole attitude to drink must change, I doubt any add campaign can do that over-night.

In Europe binge drinking is considerably less. If I have kids I'd bring them up with wine and water at the dinner table in an effort at least so that they won't think downing naggins is the only way to do things.

The woman jailed let the kids drink in her house and collected their car keys. Under-age drinking is bad. Under-age drinking in an insecure enviroment is worse. Under-age drink-driving is the worst. She picked the least of three inevitable evils.

CiaranC

I have to laugh at baloobas 'wont somebody think of the children!' nonsense.

The mind boggles at someone who thinks a state who hands out 8 year sentences for this kind of thing is less dangerous than a 16 year old drinking a beer.

Matthewthebig

ballooba wrote:

Our streets and A&E departments are full of drunk 14 to 16 year olds on Junior Cert night.

That may be true but it SO easy to get laid. Those girls will do anything when passed out!

Sangre

ballooba wrote:

If they saw our binge drinking culture, they would say it's nuts too.

I'm sure there's a middle ground.

American schools and colleges very much have a binge drinking culture (from my experience). Don't know about after that.

Froot

ballooba wrote:

but better than our approach to underage drinking (i.e. nothing).

nothing = discuss it over a pint

kevmy

Matthewthebig wrote:

That may be true but it SO easy to get laid. Those girls will do anything when passed out!

LOL


By the way my previous post yes I suggested doing something and I said that the drink culture in Ireland (especially among underage drinkers) is bad - you can't really stop adults doing what they want. But I don't see how that relates to this woman gettin a totally over the top sentence for what in the grand scheme of things is a relatively small crime.