Cameras at Gigs

Eirebear

Now that the "digital age" has made cameras even more accesible to everyone and their dogs these days, is anyone else beginning to find them really bloody annoying in certain environments?
I've been at two gis in recent weeks, one in Dublin, one in Glasgow, both bands who i had really been looking forward to seeing and hearing live on stage.
Both gigs fairly small and intimate, the Village in Dublin, The Arches in Glasgow.
Both gigs involving people who i really wanted to Watch as well as hear.

Unfortunately everytime something interesting happened on stage, or one of the artists played a well known song or tune i was blinded by an array of LCD screens pointing at me, and then a mass flashing session (ooh-er!) would occur before more people would hold there little cameras up at full arms length attempting to capture some video of said band.

I'm all for people taking photos etc obviously, but when i pay my hard earned money to go and see a band who i really like, i dont want the view spoiled by someone elses camera gigs are hard enough environments at times without added problems.
You wouldnt get away with it in the theatre, or the cinema, christ even some clubs dont like it! So why is it suddenly acceptable at gigs?

PaulieC

Yeah, it's kinda sad. People seem to be more intent on taking pictures and video that they can show their mates afterwards, than watching and listening to the music. I wouldn't mind only most of the pictures from them phones must be sh*te

440Hz

people should get 'removed' for using flash at gigs, its not fair on the paying audience and EXTREMELY unfair and annoying for the performer. Its just not on.
I have no problem with non-flash photography but agree with the limit to the songs you can shoot for. I always stick to the first few, and no-flash even if the venue is relaxed about it.

Eirebear

440Hz wrote:

people should get 'removed' for using flash at gigs, its not fair on the paying audience and EXTREMELY unfair and annoying for the performer. Its just not on.
I have no problem with non-flash photography but agree with the limit to the songs you can shoot for. I always stick to the first few, and no-flash even if the venue is relaxed about it.

its not just the flash though to be honest with you, being surrounded by LCD screens can be quite off putting and distracting.

As i said i dont mind people taking the odd snap here and there, but this is constant, do we really need it?

elven

Flash at a gig is inexcusable, even from annoying people with kodak 3.2mp compacts. While I love capturing an experience with my lens, sometimes you'd rather just bloody well enjoyit and actually live in the moment, instead of staring at a 2 inch LCD screen when the real thing is happening 6 feet in front of you...

They should be smote down, or at the very least, have their cameras taken off them. But I thought it was common for them to be taken away at the door, or is that down to the venue rather than the performer?

senordingdong

Eirebear wrote:

I'm all for people taking photos etc obviously, but when i pay my hard earned money to go and see a band who i really like, i dont want the view spoiled by someone elses camera gigs are hard enough environments at times without added problems.
You wouldnt get away with it in the theatre, or the cinema, christ even some clubs dont like it! So why is it suddenly acceptable at gigs?

It actually isn't.
If you read the small print (Ireland anyway) on your ticket or whatever, you'll see that photography is in the same category as recording and bootlegging etc...it's not allowed.
I've been to many gigs and seen people being told to put their camera away and if it was a disposable then it was just confiscated.

I never had a problem with the flashes, but it is annoying when you're near the front and some fifty million plebs are trying to reach over, around and through you with their phones, not their cameras, but their phones, to try and get a crappy photo of whatever act. In one such instance, a guy got kicked out for it. (not for taking pictures but for ruining everyone elses night)

440Hz

Camera are so small these days its almost impossible to stop people bringing compacts into gigs and shooting away. In an ideal world we shouldnt be surrounded by flashes and screens at a gig. While there are rules in place in most venues for pro-photogs or press-photogs there are rarely rules for general digi-cam users, except for no flash, which they ignore anyway. Its crap but its never going to change I think... probably only get worse

I think phones are the worst, and thats almost impossible to regulate. I was at an intimate gig recently where the performer was getting seriously pissed off because he was trying to play these moving songs and some drunken twat at the front held a camera phone set to video RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS FACE for about 10 minutes. Literally, an arm's length away. It was a disgrace. Some other audience memebers complained to the bouncers in the venue and they did nothing. It really is down to the venue to enforce it. Like someone else said, on the ticket you are told cameras are not allowed, but that never stops anyone.

Eirebear

senordingdong wrote:

It actually isn't.
If you read the small print (Ireland anyway) on your ticket or whatever, you'll see that photography is in the same category as recording and bootlegging etc...it's not allowed.
I've been to many gigs and seen people being told to put their camera away and if it was a disposable then it was just confiscated.

I never had a problem with the flashes, but it is annoying when you're near the front and some fifty million plebs are trying to reach over, around and through you with their phones, not their cameras, but their phones, to try and get a crappy photo of whatever act. In one such instance, a guy got kicked out for it. (not for taking pictures but for ruining everyone elses night)

I know what it says in the ticket, and i certainly havnt seen anyone have there camera taken away from them/ or even asked to put it away recently.
yeah sure many of them are phones, but there were a hell of a lot of compact cameras as well.

Eirebear

440Hz wrote:

Camera are so small these days its almost impossible to stop people bringing compacts into gigs and shooting away. In an ideal world we shouldnt be surrounded by flashes and screens at a gig. While there are rules in place in most venues for pro-photog or press-photos there are rarely rules for general digi-cam users, except for no flash, which they ignore anyway. Its crap but its never going to change I think... probably only get worse I think phones are the worst, and thats almost impossible to regulate. I was at an intimate gig recently where the performer was getting seriously pissed off because he was trying to play these moving songs and some drunken twat at the front held a camera phone set to video RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS FACE for about 10 minutes. Literally, an arm's length away. It was a disgrace. Some other audience memebers complained to the bouncers in the venue and they did nothing. It really is down to the venue to enforce it. Like someone else said, on the ticket you are told cameras are not allowed, but that never stops anyone.

I know that feeling, i was filming a wedding last week, before hand the priest managed to put so many restrictions on me i was really struggling to get any sort of shot on the couple at all.
When they go to take the vows an uncle of the bride literally goes and stands right behind them, and right in front of me with the old bugger of a priest not batting an eyelid....livid i was!

Morlar

I have been to plenty of gigs over the years where I didnt take any pictures and wish I had.

Occassional flash doesnt bother me - it adds to the atmosphere imo - (obviously there is a practical limit).

A sea of mobile phones would be annoying but thats not the same as people taking actual photographs with a camera.

SLR's (most) dont have a live preview on lcd only a playback which means that they wouldnt be held up in the air for that.

Eirebear

Morlar wrote:

I have been to plenty of gigs over the years where I didnt take any pictures and wish I had.

Occassional flash doesnt bother me - it adds to the atmosphere imo - (obviously there is a practical limit).

A sea of mobile phones would be annoying but thats not the same as people taking actual photographs with a camera.

SLR's (most) dont have a live preview on lcd only a playback which means that they wouldnt be held up in the air for that.

So in a perfect world everyone would be watching the gig through their SLR's? nah doesnt work for me either!
Most people have some sort of digital compact now, and thats what theyre taking to gigs.

Morlar

So slr's are not the problem - its the 99% of the population who have mobiles and compacts. Its not practical but I would prefer to have those (mobile phones and compacts) banned and allow in slr's as they are much less obtrusive.

John

I was at a Tool show in Paris last year and they took my camera off me at the door, put a sticker on my ticket stub and told me to collect it at the end. Didn't bother me, my little camera wasn't going to capture anything but the backs of people's heads and a blur in the distance. It was a good system, press cameras were allowed and the audience didn't turn into a sea of human tripods.

Eirebear

Morlar wrote:

So slr's are not the problem - its the 99% of the population who have mobiles and compacts. Its not practical but I would prefer to have those (mobile phones and compacts) banned and allow in slr's as they are much less obtrusive.

In a way i agree with you, not only because of the lcd issue, but in general people with SLRs know a little bit more about what theyre doing and are a little more respectful (in general anyway!)
The problem with this for me is that the SLR also commands a little more respect, and i would find myself being a lot more cautious about my movements and actuions if someones standing infront of me with one, i reckon that could get annoying too!

trooney

The whole barrage of p&s's and camera phones is just a product of our time. I haven't really shot at any gigs for about a year now, but never really found it too much trouble to be honest. But then the type of gigs I shoot are historically electronic producers and/or techno DJ's and club nights. There were never really too many people who were too interested in taking along their p&s to a drink (and whatever else) fuelled dancing night.
The most annoying trouble I've had was from bouncers assuming I'm there taking photos without permission and constantly hassling me. But thats only ever happened once, at a night run by a certain promotional company who's name we shall not speak.

sineadw

I think it depends. I go to a hell of a lot of gigs and I usually have my camera with me. I've tried to limit myself to a few songs in the set recently, but TBH thats more for me than for them - you miss the whole bloody thing if you're behind the lens the whole time.

I can see how annoying it would be to be at a large gig and be behind a sea of phone cameras being held aloft, but most smaller bands really appreciate photos being taken at gigs, especially if you post them up (good publicity) and especially especially if you share them with them later. I know a few people though who get really uncomfortable when you point a camera at them. Seems a bit strange in that they're sticking themselves on stage in front of maybe a few hundred people but there you go

I think its a judgement call. I'd personally hate to see cameras banned. What with Myspace and message boards and suchlike its become as much part of the scene as anything else. I do agree there's a limit though. Usually the gigs I'm at it wouldn't be an issue. Maybe I just have good taste

unreggd

I love takin photos and dont see why I shouldnt be aloud.

If im at a bigger venue [the point/rds] noone notices cos theres already so much light


At smaller gigs I keep it to a minimum, also, im usually up the front, or zoom in from the back, and again, noone seems to mind

if someones bothered, ill stop

but a ban is a loada bollix imo

melekalikimaka

mneh. i think you should stop complaining, and few lcds and the odd flash at a gig!!! in fairness, and the moshing, sweaty bodies, drinks beoing thrown about don't bother you? maybe a the smaller gig the cameras could get a bit annoying but i really wouldn't make a fuss over it

Borderfox

Eirebear wrote:

I know that feeling, i was filming a wedding last week, before hand the priest managed to put so many restrictions on me i was really struggling to get any sort of shot on the couple at all.
When they go to take the vows an uncle of the bride literally goes and stands right behind them, and right in front of me with the old bugger of a priest not batting an eyelid....livid i was!

I really know this, at showjumping events no professionals use flash but then johnny's parents come up and flash him going over a jump, makes me blood boil. :mad: I would agree about it being annoying at a gig, especially at arms length away from the performer.

senordingdong

440Hz wrote:

Camera are so small these days its almost impossible to stop people bringing compacts into gigs and shooting away. In an ideal world we shouldnt be surrounded by flashes and screens at a gig. While there are rules in place in most venues for pro-photogs or press-photogs there are rarely rules for general digi-cam users, except for no flash, which they ignore anyway. Its crap but its never going to change I think... probably only get worse

No you've mis-read what I said. Unless you're with the press or something, you are breaking the law if you take photo.s at a gig.

440Hz

No I didnt misread you. I know what you meant, and yes I am aware of the legal issue. I was merely mentioning that venues dont enforce the law, and the VENUEs do not or at least rarely apply the rules to point and shoot users.

melekalikimaka

senordingdong wrote:

No you've mis-read what I said. Unless you're with the press or something, you are breaking the law if you take photo.s at a gig.

law?? I wouldn't think so?

i think its put on tickets for the artists, some(not all, rather no photography at their gigs). but alot don't give a fiddle, or even like it

sineadw

Actually no, its only a legal issue if the bands explicitly state it is. Very few do.

senordingdong

440Hz wrote:

No I didnt misread you. I know what you meant, and yes I am aware of the legal issue. I was merely mentioning that venues dont enforce the law, and the VENUEs do not or at least rarely apply the rules to point and shoot users.

AH right. I beg your pardon.
Well I wouldn't expect the venue to do it but the security staff. I have see n it done a few times, they're generally not fussy about it because they probably think it's not a big deal.

melekalikimaka wrote:

law?? I wouldn't think so?

i think its put on tickets for the artists, some(not all, rather no photography at their gigs). but alot don't give a fiddle, or even like it

It is actually illeagal full stop. I believe in the law's eyes it is akin to using a video recorder or whatever.

unreggd

This is the most annoying thing ever!

They say this rule is imposed so you cant zoom in close and take amazing photos of the artists and use them to print posters which you'll sell

Is this really why, or is there a deeper meaning?

Flash cant be the problem, as you can use a compact no prob and flash away.

I think ill get the TZ3 with its 10X optical zoom, in the size of a compact

or they have binoculars with 25x zoom and a built in digi camera on ebay, although they're low MP

Fajitas!

unreggd wrote:

This is the most annoying thing ever!

They say this rule is imposed so you cant zoom in close and take amazing photos of the artists and use them to print posters which you'll sell

It is.

That would be the same thing as recording the gig and selling it.

The flash's are also mood destroying, and annoying for both the artist and other people watching the gig.

Kali

Hmm I was at a premiere of David Gilmour's new DVD the other day (Odeon cinema in london), and I took around 30 photos of him performing live I'd say (400D with Tamron 70-300mm), but completly unintrusive.. no flash, LCD display off.. camera perched on my knee peering between the two heads in front of me, cinema seating remember.. so not in anyone's way whatsoever.
First time I'd had my SLR handy for a gig so it was just curiousity that made me take it out and start snapping.

I don't see any issue with this at all, as there were dozens of flashs from compacts going off constantly which probably aren't even going to come out properly plus the multitude of video phones stuck in the air. I got several flashes right in my face several times (gilmour was standing behind me at one point).. extremely annoying (and blinding).

Hugh_C

Kali wrote:

Hmm I was at a premiere of David Gilmour's new ...

Hippy



Actually, I'd love to have been there too.

Lochaber

hmm...

well, I take a lot of photos at gigs and to be honest I've never had a problem, in that I've never had security try to stop me and I've never had anyone in a crowd say they were annoyed with me taking photos. In fact quite the opposite, down at Electric Picnic the other weekend a lot of people were complimenting my shots during the gigs and one concertgoer asked me to e-mail them the photos from one of them *shrug*

Also i usually send photos along to the Irish bands (and any other smaller bands but they're mostly Irish) that I go to and they always seem very positive about it, one of them has one of my photos as their main myspace profile pic. (hey, I'm not a professional, it made me happy ;-))

I guess it goes without saying that I don't find people taking photos annoying myself... though I do find the people taking videos with their phones slightly annoying.. though not really tbh because it never seems to last longer than about 2 mins. I should probably mention that I don't use flash and unless you have an SLR I don't really see the point of using flash...

Also I'd tend not to take photos during the whole gig, particularly not the big songs... mainly because I've always gone to a gig to see the band, I'd never pay €30-€80 just to take photos!

Anyway... I suppose this is just a long way of saying... I disagree, I don't find the lcds on compacts and phones annoying. :-) I guess it depends on the gig though, I'd never wouldn't go taking photos if I thought I was annoying the band.

Spyral

Last year I was going to a cathoic youth festival in the NIA in birmingham

yer wan at the door wanted to take my fujis56000 off me claiming it was an SLR.. she tried to twist the lens off I protested that its 'only 5 mega pixels' compared to other people with much bigger ones'

then she goes 'they could be photographers'
my reply : photographers don't wear the robes of cictersian monks and GET ME THE DUTY MANAGER !

duty manager gets the event organiser, some nice old guy he goes 'its fine, why not ?'

In fairness what am I going to do sell 12x14"s of a famous priest..

Cabaal

440Hz wrote:

people should get 'removed' for using flash at gigs, its not fair on the paying audience and EXTREMELY unfair and annoying for the performer. Its just not on.

Not to mention, if your 500metres back and your using flash they doesn't make any difference to the lighting of your photo

rahtkennades

Sorry all, but I have to say it.

Are you sure there isn't just a teensy bit of 'SLR Snobbery' going on here? As in, it's perfectly fine for 'photographers' with big fancy cameras to take pictures, because they'll come out all nice and artistic. But some tool with a camera-phone or a P & S should be thrown out for ruining my view/shot.

Everybody is as entitled as the next person to take pictures to record their own impressions of events. The technology they use is dependent on their own requirements or ability to afford it.

Fajitas!

No. Some tool that sticks his SLR up while I'm trying to enjoy a concert is just as annoying as any mobile phone or P&S.

Kali

Fajitas! wrote:

No. Some tool that sticks his SLR up while I'm trying to enjoy a concert is just as annoying as any mobile phone or P&S.

Yep, just as ignorant. If you really want to take photos, get there early and stake out a good spot.

Fajitas!

Tbh, if you really want to take photographs with no hassle, you get a press pass, or you at least ask the tour manager if it'd be alright for you to go in the pit... saying you're a student could work wonders.

rahtkennades

Fair enough, but if you want to take a few shots of a band playing, I don't think it necessarily justifies all the hassle of organising a press pass. If you're being a muppet and annoying everybody by being deliberately obtrusive, then it's up to security to ask you to desist or else remove you. But I think there needs to be a bit of balance to the situation.

That being said of course, it was pointed out above that it's illegal to take pictures at a gig without permission.:rolleyes:

Fajitas!

Well, I said "really take photographs without hassle"... One could be completly unobtrusive, and not annoying anyone, and still have a run in with the security, it's all down to the way the gig is run, and I fully agree, there needs to be a bit of balance to the situation.

thebaz

melekalikimaka wrote:

mneh. i think you should stop complaining, and few lcds and the odd flash at a gig!!! in fairness, and the moshing, sweaty bodies, drinks beoing thrown about don't bother you? maybe a the smaller gig the cameras could get a bit annoying but i really wouldn't make a fuss over it

i'm with mele here -- you can always find something to complain about , the venue , its too loud, too violent , too much dope , too many obnoxious drunks --- lou reed and van morrison are puritanical to the point of killing atmosphere at there shows -- like photography , live music can't or shouldn't be perfect -- IMO

nice1franko

All the wee lcd screens are just like lighters years ago!

I couldn't be bothered taking a grainy camera phone photo myself or a poxy clip with so much distortion in it you cant even hear what song it is but ... if it makes them happy, why not?

odonnell

nice1franko wrote:

All the wee lcd screens are just like lighters years ago. what's the problem?

whats the problem?

Ive never had people lean a lighter on my shoulder and on the top of my head for a better shot. Ive never seen 200 2inch square flames in the front 3 rows of a crowd at a gig, and holding a lighter is far more atmospheric than 200 people looking at the gig through a tiny wee telly.

Down with this sort of thing. If we were all allowed to do whatever made us happy, the world would be fecked. (if it isnt already)

Easy access to recording equipment these days is so easy that it has become the norm - in my own opinion it detracts from a gig. 10 years ago it wouldnt have detracted because there were no camera phones in sight, but now because its the norm - its allowed. I think thats wrong. Would you be happy about camera phones at the cinema if copyrighting werent an issue? I wouldnt...

Calina

In 1992, I went to see Crowded House play Midnight at the ******* (used to be one of the ways of circumventing those pesky early closing hours I think). No one had camera phones or whatever, obviously, cos we was all far too broke an only muppets had car phones anyway and DOS ruled the world.

Anyways, if I close my eye, I can still remember the guy sitting beside me - he'd brought all his records (vinyl, don't you know) to get signed. I can remember Neil Finn coming out on stage and I can remember the bouncers not letting your man out of the Stunning queue jump (we'd been there since 8pm).

Sometimes I think people just don't know how to remember things anymore, they have to record it someway, trap it.

Are you going to remember the feeling any better with some bytes on a cameraphone, or with your heart?

thebaz

Calina wrote:

I can still remember the guy sitting beside me - he'd brought all his records (vinyl, don't you know) to get signed.

geek ... think i'd prefer to be see with my p & s ....;)

Calina

It was 1992...CDs were for George Michael fans.

rahtkennades

Calina wrote:

......

Sometimes I think people just don't know how to remember things anymore, they have to record it someway, trap it.

Are you going to remember the feeling any better with some bytes on a cameraphone, or with your heart?

Yes, but when you've been brought up with the 30second advertisement as the longest continuous piece of information you can process, then I guess it's down to digitally recording things in order to remember them.

Now back in my day........:p

nice1franko

odonnell wrote:

Ive never had people lean a lighter on my shoulder and on the top of my head for a better shot.

In fairness, anyone who does that deserves a bit of a shove and a stern "do you fukcing mind???" and a repeat peformance warrants a good swinging around by the hood of the coat.

odonnell wrote:

Easy access to recording equipment these days is so easy that it has become the norm - in my own opinion it detracts from a gig. 10 years ago it wouldnt have detracted because there were no camera phones in sight, but now because its the norm - its allowed. I think thats wrong. Would you be happy about camera phones at the cinema if copyrighting werent an issue? I wouldnt...

No, I must say I wouldn't be too happy about it in the cinema. I'd also agree with you that lighters'd be more atmospheric.

It doesn't really bother at gigs although I do think you have to be a twat to watch any kind of live event through an lcd - unless you're getting paid to or you're a keen photographer there spefically to take some "master" shots.

I've seen idiots do it at weddings as well. The weddings of today must be the most well documented events ever! Sit back, let the memories of the day be in your head, the photographer'll do his job and his work will provide you with reminders of it.

Actually, I bet the next gig I'm at it'll do my head in. Thanks odonnell

Lochaber

odonnell wrote:

Would you be happy about camera phones at the cinema if copyrighting werent an issue? I wouldnt...

No I wouldn't but it's a completely different situation.. I go to a gig experience something in the flesh with a crowd of other people, the music might not be the best, the sound might not be the best, the crowd might not be the best but the point is that we're all there sharing the experience, seeing something that will never happen again... And I take photos to capture this, those people will never be standing on the stage in that moment playing that song again, in the same way that I'll never be in that crowd feeling that energy again.

When I look at a gig photo I've taken I remember how I felt, sure I can remember without the photo (that's what I do for the rest of the gig!) but you know what, the photo helps!

When I go to the cinema I go to see a film in under the best possible conditions, it matters not to me if there is anyone else there and of course it would annoy me if people were waving their phones around... that's not what I'm there for. It just happens to make more economic sense to see a film with a lot of people in a cinema at once than hiring out a cinema for myself to enjoy a film.

Going to the cinema is akin to listening to an album in a perfect studio... that's not what going to a gig is... for me...

anyway that's just what I think...

I would be pretty annoyed if someone leaned their camera on my head though... but I've never done that to someone *shrug*

odonnell

hah! sorry Franko... i recently was at a gig to see a band very dear to me and left the gig after a short time so this stuff is very fresh to me and is still sticking in my throat ever so slightly.

The crowd now is a lot different from 10 years ago in my opinion in that now there seem to be less people there for the atmopshere and enjoyment, and more seem to be there on an almost documentary basis - the "i was there - look! see?" factor. Its like the japanese tourists taking shots of Scottish castles and neglecting to read the plaques. You know - this just came to me....its very similar in species to outright Consumerism. Can we 'consume' an event?

Seems to me like to be sumberged in an atmosphere isnt even on the radar for a lot of the gig'ers ive been amongst in the past few years.

Its a shame really, as the event will pass these gig'ers by, and memories of The Rolling Stones last ever concert will be consigned to a thousand LCDs.

But i agree with you - people there especially for the shoot, or the documentation, needn't worry. Theyre not in the way, theyre not being rude, they at least have a purpose and a reason to be looking at the gig through their photographers eyes. But why oh why would anyone buy a E50 ticket and not actually watch the concert - is just beyond me.

odonnell

Lochaber wrote:

No I wouldn't but it's a completely different situation.. I go to a gig experience something in the flesh with a crowd of other people, the music might not be the best, the sound might not be the best, the crowd might not be the best but the point is that we're all there sharing the experience, seeing something that will never happen again... And I take photos to capture this, those people will never be standing on the stage in that moment playing that song again, in the same way that I'll never be in that crowd feeling that energy again.

When I look at a gig photo I've taken I remember how I felt, sure I can remember without the photo (that's what I do for the rest of the gig!) but you know what, the photo helps!

When I go to the cinema I go to see a film in under the best possible conditions, it matters not to me if there is anyone else there and of course it would annoy me if people were waving their phones around... that's not what I'm there for. It just happens to make more economic sense to see a film with a lot of people in a cinema at once than hiring out a cinema for myself to enjoy a film.

Going to the cinema is akin to listening to an album in a perfect studio... that's not what going to a gig is... for me...

anyway that's just what I think...

...and id aree with you on the differences in both situations!

I also agree in that to go to a gig is to immerse yourself in the crowd, the atmosphere, the whole primal nature of it - a live event cannot be beaten! BUT - do you honestly feel the nature of a gig is still as good as it always was with the upsurge in people holding cameras and phones? To me, theyre not actualy 'there' the same as I am. Heh the best analogy i can think of, and dont crucify me here, would be to imagine what a Stadium would be like if everyone in the stands watched the game on the big screens in the stadium, instead of looking at the pitch where the players are!

sorry man...maybe its the gigs ive been to personally and the levels of complacency and ignorance ive witnessed - but to me its just seems ridiculous you know? I suppose it depends very much on the situation - and this cant be applied to all of them.