Why no young Catholics in Ireland

Spyral

Why are there sow few young catholics ?

I mean anyone in the 18-25 age group who is a catholic is gonna have a hard time finding a spouse considering that so few people attend mass. It's one of my major concerns with religion in Ireland at the minute.

Any thoughts ?

Ivan

Its pretty simple, imho, the Irish people have grown very disenfranchised with the Catholic church and the associated religion.

Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever way you look at it, there seems to be a definite correlation between rising education levels and dropping religious attendances...

Saying that though, would you really be so against having a spouse that is not religious or of the same religion? You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but that seems especially close minded even for a christian.

Tim Robbins

Ivan wrote:

Its pretty simple, imho, the Irish people have grown very disenfranchised with the Catholic church and the associated religion.

Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever way you look at it, there seems to be a definite correlation between rising education levels and dropping religious attendances...

Saying that though, would you really be so against having a spouse that is not religious or of the same religion? You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but that seems especially close minded even for a christian.

A lot of them go back when they have children.
An interesting letter in today's times:

YOUNG PEOPLE AND THE CHURCH

*

Madam, - Last weekend, in the absence of the parish priest, I was the priest-celebrant at all three Masses in the parish of Our Lady of Lourdes in Limerick. I saw nobody in church between the ages of 10 and 40 years.

There was a certain sadness in the fact that the "Mass intention" for the 10.30am Eucharist was: "For all our young people who were sitting their Leaving and Junior Certificate exams".

- Yours, etc,

Fr PATRICK SEAVER CC, Childers Road, Rosbrien, Limerick.

Ivan

They "go back" to have their wedding, to christen their children and to bury their parents.

Almost zero mass attendance (or greatly reduced compared to previous generations) in between and no real interest or patience for the church, its policies or its doctrine.

Realistically, can you blame any of us?

Fallen Seraph

Spyral wrote:

Why are there sow few young catholics ?

I get the impression that as religion declines as a social aspect in peoples lives here in ireland, young people are getting divided into two groups: those who are apathetic towards religious matters and those who aren't.

Obviously the apathetic aren't going to be (catholic) church goers.

Those who aren't apathetic are the again likely to fall into two groups: atheist/agnostic/some alternate spiritual path and christians who read the bible.

Again, obviously, those who aren't bible reading christians will not be catholics.

I also get the impression that there is currently quite the trend for those who believe and read the bible, without preconceptions, to come to the conclusion that catholicism's teachings aren't necessary for salvation. So the catholic church loses patronage in this field too.

Asiaprod

Fallen Seraph wrote:

I also get the impression that there is currently quite the trend for those who believe and read the bible, without preconceptions, to come to the conclusion that catholicism's teachings aren't necessary for salvation. So the catholic church loses patronage in this field too.

Agreed, I found there were just way to many rules in Catholicism's teachings and not enough emphasis on individual achievement. Unfortunately, instead of redefining catholicism to move with the times and meet the current needs of its practitioners, we seem to see u-turns back to the way it used to be. This is not progress in my book, but a circling of the wagons.

Tim Robbins

Ivan wrote:

They "go back" to have their wedding, to christen their children and to bury their parents.

Almost zero mass attendance (or greatly reduced compared to previous generations) in between and no real interest or patience for the church, its policies or its doctrine.

Realistically, can you blame any of us?

None of my friends go to mass. However only a few would describe themselves as atheist.

I think there are two main reason why people don't go to mass regularly:
1. The scandals of the Catholic Church.
2. I think we live in a very consumer driven society and society has become quite materialistic. This materialism has shifted people's thinking away from complicated spirtual questions towards materialism and the "happiness" and sense of fulfillment that can be derived from it.

I think the aformentioned has had a far bigger impact on why people don't go to mass relative to the:
* Ontological argument rebuttal
* Mechanistic argument rebuttal
* Telelogical argument rebuttal
* Cosmological argument rebuttal

Personally, I would like to see society approach spirtual questions rather than spend a life consumed by materialism.

Michael G

Ivan wrote:

You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but that seems especially close minded even for a christian.

You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but that seems especially close-minded for anyone, whether they are Christian or not. If someone is a Christian (more than in name only), his or her faith is going to have a bearing on most parts of life. It's not just a matter of what, if any, church service you go to once a week. It is only logical to hope that the person you are closest to will have the same outlook.

Ivan wrote:

Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever way you look at it, there seems to be a definite correlation between rising education levels and dropping religious attendances....

Nothing to do with "rising education levels". People now have many more nominal educational qualifications than ever before. But everything indicates that they are less well educated and less intelligent, sceptical, sophisticated, subtle (or whatever you think they might be) than other people were before them. (This, as you know, is the worldwide phenomenon of dumbing down.) The only real difference now is that most people think that one person's opinion is as good as another's, regardless of their respective education or intelligence or the quality of the information they are processing.

In answer to Spyral, who started this thread, there are actually a great many young Catholics to be found. However Spyral should look for the smarter ones. Stay away from the pond life. Don't join your local folk Mass group; look for the brighter people at the Iona Institute or the Latin Mass Society or Opus Dei, depending on your preference.

PDN

Michael G wrote:

If someone is a Christian (more than in name only), his or her faith is going to have a bearing on most parts of life. It's not just a matter of what, if any, church service you go to once a week. It is only logical to hope that the person you are closest to will have the same outlook.

For once I find myself in perfect agreement with Michael G. For many of us our Christian faith is the most important element of our lives. I cannot imagine being married to someone who did not share that passion. The biblical command "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers." (2 Corinthians 6:14) is a good principle. Where I see it violated, both in the area of marriage or of business partners, it usually means trouble. As a pastor, I refuse to conduct marriage services unless both partners to the marriage share a common faith in Christ.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

For once I find myself in perfect agreement with Michael G. For many of us our Christian faith is the most important element of our lives. I cannot imagine being married to someone who did not share that passion. The biblical command "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers." (2 Corinthians 6:14) is a good principle. Where I see it violated, both in the area of marriage or of business partners, it usually means trouble. As a pastor, I refuse to conduct marriage services unless both partners to the marriage share a common faith in Christ.

If you don't mind me asking, what would your view be if your son / daughter decided to marry an atheist or someone of a different faith?

Owen

Honestly, as a young person (Read 28), I have little or no interest in the Catholic Church. I believe using Condoms is actually sensible, I believe in sex before marriage, and I don't let a book rule how I live my life. On the upside, I do have a very high sense of morality in determining what's right and wrong (Instilled into me by my Parents, and not the Church). I guess young people are at a stage where they think for themselves, and aren't afraid to decide what's right for them.

Tim Robbins

Ivan wrote:

Saying that though, would you really be so against having a spouse that is not religious or of the same religion? You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but that seems especially close minded even for a christian.

I would be in agreement with Ivan on this one.
You may be in agreement with your partner on the theological questions but you may differ on other beliefs, such as:
* Is it correct to eat meat or not?
* Should you send your kids to a public or private school?
* Should you encourage your kids to play a particular sport or play all sports?
* Pocket money for kids?
* Politics (Enda Kenny's wife used to be in Fianna Fail).
* Etc.

So there are many important beliefs in our lives not just theological ones. Probability, would say we'll agree on some differ on others. (Many that difference could be a could thing as it challenges the mind.)

I would be more worried about a relationship that couldn't compromise or respect a differing belief than one that didn't agree on a theological question.

Spyral

Well firstly Catholics can marry non catholics, a dispensation is required though. I would happy marry someone if I was in love with them though I think it would be more probable to get on well with someone of a shared faith.

Additon as a 'pastor' I dont know what right you have to refuse marrage (if you have the authority to give marrage) to anyone. What must they beleive to qualify as Christian ? At the end of the day an aethiest person can beleieve that Jesus existed and there is nothing in the bible about sola fide only the opposite..

The whole yoked with unbelievers could be applied to anything.. football business partners... I think its quite judgemental

sturgo

Work, football, cheap beer, the Internet, sex and glossy mags have taken the place of religion. The same as before. Nothing much has changed, just some cultural differences.

PDN

Spyral wrote:

Additon as a 'pastor' I dont know what right you have to refuse marrage (if you have the authority to give marrage) to anyone. What must they beleive to qualify as Christian ? At the end of the day an aethiest person can beleieve that Jesus existed and there is nothing in the bible about sola fide only the opposite..

The whole yoked with unbelievers could be applied to anything.. football business partners... I think its quite judgemental

I have the authority to conduct a wedding, or indeed not to conduct a wedding, for anyone I want. Since the wedding ceremony in our church is geared around the idea of marriage being a covenant created by God, then an atheist would be a total hypocrite to ask me to conduct their wedding, irrespective of whether they believed that Jesus existed or not.

I think you're very judgmental to call me judgmental.

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, what would your view be if your son / daughter decided to marry an atheist or someone of a different faith?

I would continue to love her as my daughter, and I would be there as a proud father at her wedding in the registry office or in the place of worship of that other faith.

Spyral

I have the authority to conduct a wedding, or indeed not to conduct a wedding, for anyone I want. Since the wedding ceremony in our church is geared around the idea of marriage being a covenant created by God, then an atheist would be a total hypocrite to ask me to conduct their wedding, irrespective of whether they believed that Jesus existed or not.

I think you're very judgmental to call me judgmental.

but where does that authority come from ? Since when did God give it to you ?

PDN

Spyral wrote:

but where does that authority come from ? Since when did God give it to you ?

Legally, authority is not an issue. You need no 'authority' to conduct a religious marriage ceremony. I would say the authority comes from the people who ask me to conduct their weddings.

smashey

Spyral wrote:

Well firstly Catholics can marry non catholics, a dispensation is required though. I would happy marry someone if I was in love with them though I think it would be more probable to get on well with someone of a shared faith.

Additon as a 'pastor' I dont know what right you have to refuse marrage (if you have the authority to give marrage) to anyone. What must they beleive to qualify as Christian ? At the end of the day an aethiest person can beleieve that Jesus existed and there is nothing in the bible about sola fide only the opposite..

The whole yoked with unbelievers could be applied to anything.. football business partners... I think its quite judgemental

Therein lies a problem If a young Catholic wants to marry somebody from another religion, why should they seek dispensation?

Spyral

Legally, authority is not an issue. You need no 'authority' to conduct a religious marriage ceremony. I would say the authority comes from the people who ask me to conduct their weddings.

no offence then but why do they need you at all ?


A catholic should get married in a catholic church as Marriage is a sacrament however as the spouse is not catholic then a special exception to sacraments has to be made considering that one spouse is not a catholic.

smashey

Spyral wrote:

no offence then but why do they need you at all ?


A catholic should get married in a catholic church as Marriage is a sacrament however as the spouse is not catholic then a special exception to sacraments has to be made considering that one spouse is not a catholic.

Why should a Catholic get married in a Catholic Church? Would it not make more sense to get married in a registry office?

Spyral

smashey wrote:

Why should a Catholic get married in a Catholic Church? Would it not make more sense to get married in a registry office?

for a catholic marrage is a sacrament.

smashey

Spyral wrote:

for a catholic marrage is a sacrament.

I'm fully aware of that, but given the title of this thread, there are a lot of "lapsed" catholics out there who would only be interested in the actual ceremony.

philologos

Ivan wrote:

Saying that though, would you really be so against having a spouse that is not religious or of the same religion? You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but that seems especially close minded even for a christian.

There would be a lot of problems when discussing what faith you would raise your children into if any at all.

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote:

There would be a lot of problems when discussing what faith you would raise your children into if any at all.

I disagree. The only time people are uncomfortable discussing faith or lack of it is when they are not sure why they have or don't have it. Or when they just have no respect for an alternative viewpoint. Surely if parents offer alternative views that is an excellant way for a Child to get a rounded education and not just believe what their parents do.

Dave!

It's not just young people who have stopped going to mass... There's been a drift towards non-theism for a while now (although admittedly a gentle one), with the CSO showing more atheists, and the church reporting problems recruiting priests.

I'm not sure what the situation is in the USA, but it appears to me that religion is more prevalent there amongst young people, and it's probably something to do with the efforts made to engage with the young people. There's often Christian rock concerts and bands playing over there, even during ceremonies. The most we have over here is a crap choir singing "hallej-hallejlu-HALLEJLUIAH!"

Perhaps if the chuch made more of an effort to engage with the young people then they'd have more attendance. I also think that it would do the priests good if they could emphasize their position within the community/parish. Essentially they need to start some sort of campaign... I mean, I'm no christian, but if I were walking down the street and a priest approached me and took an interest in my life -- sure, at the start I'd be creeped out, but I think I'd have more respect for the church if they bothered to do that. The way it appears to me is that they have an inflated sense of self-importance, and they expect people to flock to them, rather than trying to keep up with society and take an interest in people's lives. Sure, they're there to help, but most people won't think to approach them.

Think working class Italian neighbourhoods in America, in the Rocky films, lol........

Spyral

I'm fully aware of that, but given the title of this thread, there are a lot of "lapsed" catholics out there who would only be interested in the actual ceremony.

but why ? if they dont follow the religon then why worry about having it in a church. seems odd.

Cyrus

ned78 wrote:

Honestly, as a young person (Read 28), I have little or no interest in the Catholic Church. I believe using Condoms is actually sensible, I believe in sex before marriage, and I don't let a book rule how I live my life. On the upside, I do have a very high sense of morality in determining what's right and wrong (Instilled into me by my Parents, and not the Church). I guess young people are at a stage where they think for themselves, and aren't afraid to decide what's right for them.

perfectly put, i and most others of the 20-30 age bracket would think the same.

people now trust their own morality and a lot of people who have taken a step back and looked at catholicism now realise that its just another story put together over the years with a load of arbitrary rules added as it suited people as time went on.

the core principals are fine and a good guide to live your life (love thy neighbour etc) but the ceremony and old fashioned rules etc put people off.

philologos

Tim Robbins wrote:

I disagree. The only time people are uncomfortable discussing faith or lack of it is when they are not sure why they have or don't have it. Or when they just have no respect for an alternative viewpoint. Surely if parents offer alternative views that is an excellant way for a Child to get a rounded education and not just believe what their parents do.

depends on how willing people are to compromise, and in a lot of cases people aren't.

Michael G

smashey wrote:

Therein lies a problem If a young Catholic wants to marry somebody from another religion, why should they seek dispensation?

If they want to get married in a Catholic ceremony. It's not a public service that you are entitled to as a citizen; if you want to use it, you have to obey its rules.

However the Catholic Church in Ireland is getting like the Church of England; most clergy don't have either the conviction or the guts to stand up for what they are employed to do.

Spyral

God knows If i was a priests I'd tell them where to go ! (to the reg office :P)

hairyheretic

Michael G wrote:

If they want to get married in a Catholic ceremony. It's not a public service that you are entitled to as a citizen; if you want to use it, you have to obey its rules.

However the Catholic Church in Ireland is getting like the Church of England; most clergy don't have either the conviction or the guts to stand up for what they are employed to do.

Considering the number of people that are turning away from the churches themselves, having the priests turn yet more away would seem somewhat counterproductive for the survival of the catholic church as a whole.

PDN

DaveMcG wrote:

I'm not sure what the situation is in the USA, but it appears to me that religion is more prevalent there amongst young people, and it's probably something to do with the efforts made to engage with the young people. There's often Christian rock concerts and bands playing over there, even during ceremonies. The most we have over here is a crap choir singing "hallej-hallejlu-HALLEJLUIAH!"

Actually, Dave, there are a lot of Christian rock bands & concerts in Ireland. A number of churches, my own included, use rock music in church services.

DarkJager

The rpoblem is that the current generation of teenagers, feel they were forced to be something they have absolutely no interest in. I no longer consider myself a catholic, and will not be "coming back" for a wedding or baptising my child into the Catholic religion.

It was my parents decision to bring me into that religion, but as soon as common sense develops, you see there is nothing that makes religion worthwhile in a modern society.

PDN

Spyral wrote:

no offence then but why do they need you at all ?

No offence taken. They certainly don't 'need' me in any legal sense. However, usually when a person is a member of a church then they want to have their wedding in the church as a part of the community to which they belong. However, if they are unable to meet the requirements for a church wedding they are totally free to go the registrar.

Sleepy

PDN wrote:

Actually, Dave, there are a lot of Christian rock bands & concerts in Ireland. A number of churches, my own included, use rock music in church services.

Didn't the current pope not issue a decree banning this recently?

As an agnostic who was baptised a Catholic by my parents I'd offer this explanation for the turn away from the church in recent years: we've become a wealthy country.

Piety thrives on poverty. When our main pre-occupations in life are the struggles to find/hold onto work, to pay the mortgage/rent, to put food on the table for ourselves and/or our families etc. we have little time for philosophical pondering and go along with what we've has been brought up with. As employment becomes the norm and money more plentiful one spends less time worrying about the base necessities of life and starts to ponder upon the 'big' questions.

Add to this the fact that the majority of our population are now college educated. While there are those in our schools and colleges decrying 'falling standards of education', it is undeniable that the majority of our population are better educated than previous generations (purely from a numerical perspective more of them are finishing school and going onto third level). This not only leads to a better educated population, it also adds to the time one has to question what they've been taught and discuss and debate these things with their peers during their time at college.

Now we get to the part of my argument most people won't like: religion doesn't stand up to logical questioning. Unless one is prepared to take a leap of faith one will dismiss religion.

So, in Ireland at the moment you have a population who have the financial comfort and free time to think about philosophical things with the benefit of an 'educated'* viewpoint. With these benefits this generation is not going to flock to religion.

*While I have many, many issues with the Irish education system, I can't deny that it's better than many others in this world.

BrianCalgary

Sleepy wrote:

Didn't the current pope not issue a decree banning this recently?

As an agnostic who was baptised a Catholic by my parents I'd offer this explanation for the turn away from the church in recent years: we've become a wealthy country.

Piety thrives on poverty. When our main pre-occupations in life are the struggles to find/hold onto work, to pay the mortgage/rent, to put food on the table for ourselves and/or our families etc. we have little time for philosophical pondering and go along with what we've has been brought up with. As employment becomes the norm and money more plentiful one spends less time worrying about the base necessities of life and starts to ponder upon the 'big' questions.

Add to this the fact that the majority of our population are now college educated. While there are those in our schools and colleges decrying 'falling standards of education', it is undeniable that the majority of our population are better educated than previous generations (purely from a numerical perspective more of them are finishing school and going onto third level). This not only leads to a better educated population, it also adds to the time one has to question what they've been taught and discuss and debate these things with their peers during their time at college.

Now we get to the part of my argument most people won't like: religion doesn't stand up to logical questioning. Unless one is prepared to take a leap of faith one will dismiss religion.

So, in Ireland at the moment you have a population who have the financial comfort and free time to think about philosophical things with the benefit of an 'educated'* viewpoint. With these benefits this generation is not going to flock to religion.

*While I have many, many issues with the Irish education system, I can't deny that it's better than many others in this world.

I don't think it has anything to do with education. Our church has quite a few PHD's and Masters walking around it. Calgary has one of the highest educated workforces in Canada, yet our churches are full.

The churches where decline is happening is in the mainline protestant and RC denominations.

The reasons for this can be as varied as the numbers that have left. But you can see trends. The churches that 'change with the times' and accept the 'new morality' are in major decline as they leave the basis for their being and that is to worship and glorify Jesus Christ.

As for others, like the RC church as an example, they fail to give a reason for their faith. They claim that there way is done because it has always been done this way and just believe and have faith. That makes the RC church seem kinda silly and not thought out. Our local priest does a great job of giving reasons for his faith and that particular pasrish grows and thrives and people are coming to know Christ as a result.

I would like to ask, because your post seems to bear this out, are you saying that well educated people are not Christian because they are too rational to be? In other words only the uneducated will embrace Christianity?

Spyral

Now we get to the part of my argument most people won't like: religion doesn't stand up to logical questioning. Unless one is prepared to take a leap of faith one will dismiss religion.

actually if you have a read of the vaticans site they should have answers to any of your questions. RC has been around for 2000 years, at this stage they know what they're at.

Sure individals may get it wrong, hell even 11 disciples abandoned jesus at one point, but it doesnt make Him less valid

kelly1

Cyrus wrote:

people now trust their own morality

This is the big mistake that people are making! You can see the effect of this type of thinking
in the chaos that's evident in society. We need God! Without God we're a ship without a rudder.

Cyrus wrote:

and a lot of people who have taken a step back and looked at catholicism now realise that its just another story put together over the years with a load of arbitrary rules added as it suited people as time went on.

This is a total misrepresentation of what the Church is. The Church is the instrument of God's salvation because the Church provides the sacraments by which we receive God's grace. The sacraments were instituted the Jesus Christ and the power to administer them is passed on from generation to generation through ordination. Jesus only instituted one Church.

Without a Church, what compass do you have? Protestants say, but we have the bible and the Holy Spirit. But the bible came form the Church, not vice versa! All the different Christian denominations disagree on the interpretation of the bible so what's the one true source of teaching? It's not the bible, it's the Church! God knows very well that left to our own devices and with only the bible to guide us, we will wander off the straight and narrow. The Church is the moral compass that guides us to salvation. And living without the sacraments is to walk on thin ice.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Shows that the Church is the pillar of Truth.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

Shows how the Church has the authority to teach on matter of morality.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Shows that to reject the Church means to reject Christ.

God bless,
Noel.

hairyheretic

kelly1 wrote:

This is the big mistake that people are making! You can see the effect of this type of thinking in the chaos that's evident in society. We need God!

You may, but not everyone will.

kelly1 wrote:

Without a Church, what compass do you have?

How about your own sense of right and wrong? After all, thats what all of us have, regardless of what has influenced its formation.

kelly1 wrote:

Shows how the Church has the authority to teach on matter of morality.

The catholic church has lost that authority, due to its continued covering up of the abuses of its priests. Its actions showed it was more concerned for its own appearance than the harm being done by the priests.

Owen

Quoting scripture will in no way encourage young people to come to the fold. Just so as you know.

Call Me Jimmy

My two cents:

I get the feeling that poor people turn to religion out of desperation, for hope etc. and that when Ireland started becoming prosperous and generally more educated, we realised what a sham it was and that we didn't need it.

EDIT: Also, I think that you don't need to sit through a boring mass to be spiritual or to reflect.

Owen

I'd go with the increased education too. Generally, most athiests are very well educated, and question the world around them. When they do this, science does a damn good job of explaining evolution, origin of the species, natural selection, etc, where as religion is just a little convenient. Eg :

Humans are worried about dying - religion gives everlasting life.
Humans mourn lost loved ones - religion promises to reunite you with them.
Humans have bad people upsetting their lives - religion sends the bad people to hell.

And etc, ad nauseum. I find it all too convenient to be the truth, and more likely to be made up by people living through a dark period in history to give each other hope, when persecution, early death through disease, and a general short life expectancy was order of the day.

[EDIT]To agree with 'Call me Jimmy' I think that if there is a God, he/she is probably sick to death of listening to Hail Marys and Our Fathers.

Sangre

kelly1 wrote:

This is the big mistake that people are making! You can see the effect of this type of thinking in the chaos that's evident in society. We need God! Without God we're a ship without a rudder.

Are you joking me? Do people actually think society has gone down the tubes? Do people actually think society is getting worse and this is because of people rejecting religion? Points like this just remind me of some of the more recent 'civilised' advances the developed world has made;

Emancipation
Abolishment of apartheid
Judicial development
Democratic freedom
Charter of Human Rights
Female Suffrage
Legislation protection for minorties
Religious freedom
etc.,

I think you need to show society is getting worse before you can attribute the downfall to religion. Personally I'd hate to live 50 years ago in Ireland, let alone 200 years ago. Ironically these advances are usually limited to the developed world (where apparently religion is vanishing and causing society to collapse).

philologos

I can confirm that religion advanced the movement of some of these changes as well, and it's unfair to say that only secular humanists caused those changed above.

philologos

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

My two cents:

I get the feeling that poor people turn to religion out of desperation, for hope etc. and that when Ireland started becoming prosperous and generally more educated, we realised what a sham it was and that we didn't need it.

If I may draw a comparison between what you have said and something that was written in Scripture.

Deuteronomy 32 wrote:

He found them walking in the desert,
a desolate, windswept wilderness.
He protected them and cared for them,
as he would protect himself.

Like an eagle teaching it's young to fly,
catching them safely on it's spreading wings,
the Lord kept Israel from falling.
The Lord alone led his people without the help of a foreign god.

He let them rule the highlands,
and they ate what grew in the fields.
They found wild honey among the rocks;
their olive trees flourished in stony ground.
Their cows and goats gave plenty of milk;
they had the best sheep, goats and cattle,
the finest wheat, and the choiciest wine.

The Lord's people grew rich, but rebellious;
they were fat and stuffed with food.
They abandoned their God their Creator,
and rejected their mighty saviour.
Their idolatry made the Lord jealous;
their evil they did make him angry.
They sacrificed to gods that were not real,
new gods their ancestors had never known,
gods that Israel had never obeyed,
They forgot their God, their mighty saviour,
the one who had given them life.

It's about people forgetting God when they are in times of prosperity, and unfortunately that is the case. People should be thankful for what they have been given, but they aren't. But that is the way of life.

Sangre

Jakkass wrote:

I can confirm that religion advanced the movement of some of these changes as well, and it's unfair to say that only secular humanists caused those changed above.

I never meant to say they did or didn't. I just was refuting the fact society has gotten worse. My last line was just a throw away line (one i thought of excluding) on how his pro-religion arguement is at first glance quite easy to dismiss.

Owen

Jakkass wrote:

If I may draw a comparison between what you have said and something that was written in Scripture.

No one is going to believe that, just because it's written in Scripture. Athiests form their own opinions, and quoting Scripture over and over makes Christians, in our eyes, seem a little like Parrots reciting something they've overheard. Sorry if that seems OTT, but it's how the majority of us feel.

I was accosted by a Jehovah's Witness one night. He asked if I believed in God, I said no, and he proceeded to point out a verse in the Bible that says God exists. What possible planet was this guy on? Did he expect me to drop everything and say "Oh sure, if it's in the Bible, it must be true"? The Bible says Noah was 600 years old too.

Quoting scripture at us youngsters (I can't believe I typed that word at 28) is proof of just how out of touch your average Christian is with the wants, needs and expectations of today's youth.

philologos

ned78 wrote:

1 - No one is going to believe that, just because it's written in Scripture. Athiests form their own opinions, and quoting Scripture over and over makes Christians, in our eyes, seem a little like Parrots reciting something they've overheard. Sorry if that seems OTT, but it's how the majority of us feel.

2 - Quoting scripture at us youngsters (I can't believe I typed that word at 28) is proof of just how out of touch your average Christian is with the wants, needs and expectations of today's youth.

1 - I was merely pointing out how much of a comparison could have been drawn between his statement and Deuteronomy 32. I thought it was interesting. Also, you're on the Christianity board, expect our holy book to be brought into it at some point.

2 - I am todays youth, I'm 18 years of age. Although not a Catholic, I'm a Christian. And I've been reading the Bible start to finish myself for the last few months. So don't talk to me about today's youth. I'm it

Owen

Jakkass wrote:

1 - I was merely pointing out how much of a comparison could have been drawn between his statement and Deuteronomy 32. I thought it was interesting. Also, you're on the Christianity board, expect our holy book to be brought into it at some point.

As pointed out, to the majority of Ireland's youth, being quoted scripture is yawn inducing - and seems to indicate a lack of self initiative from our perspective. The thread is titled "Why no young Catholics in Ireland" ... which indicates a call to action to find out what's wrong. We're trying to tell you guys, and the same old routine of throwing Bible verses in our face is what we get back. Don't you know it doesn't work, and is part of the reason for declining Church attendance?

Jakkass wrote:

2 - I am todays youth, I'm 18 years of age. Although not a Catholic, I'm a Christian. And I've been reading the Bible start to finish myself for the last few months. So don't talk to me about today's youth. I'm it

Fair play to you. I was in the Legion of Mary for a few years, and did my fair share of Bible Reading - as you will find the majority of Athiests have also done. It's a lonely furrow you're ploughing these days I'm afraid though.

BrianCalgary

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

My two cents:

I get the feeling that poor people turn to religion out of desperation, for hope etc. and that when Ireland started becoming prosperous and generally more educated, we realised what a sham it was and that we didn't need it.

EDIT: Also, I think that you don't need to sit through a boring mass to be spiritual or to reflect.

Once prosperity hits, people generally feel that since things are good, humanity can go it without God. Things then turn sour and people blame God for not protecting the innocent (Why would such a loving God alllow such atrocities to happen). Then when things fall aprt completely people turn back to God (ther are no atheists in a fox hole)

And no you don't need to siy thorugh a mass to be spiritual. Part of the problem with Ireland that I see as an outsider is that people generally equate Christianity with Catholoicism. That is simply not true.

If Catholicism dissatisfies you, try another denomination. Thera re many good churches listed in the find a church thread, and I encourage you to try one out.