Money = better education?

SamHamilton

Just thought I'd throw it out there.

genericgoon

Well more money would probably mean access to better teachers and facilities so yes. That wont make an idiot into a genius though but it would help.

Enemy Of Fate

For the most part no.However in around the cities like Dublin where there are fee paying schools, than yes.However the education isn't THAT much better.I still maintain that it would have been nigh on impossible for me to get a better economics teacher than the one I got at my (non-fee paying) school.....you know unless I got thaught by Keynes or Marx or someone.

cson

In our class based society of today, yes.

Btw there shouldn't really be a question mark at the end of "Money = Better Education?". Its not really a question, more of an answer.

Aard

Better education? Maybe.
Better learning? Not necessarily.

kisaragi

I dunno.. my 2 person spanish class is pretty good!

Anyway even if you buy your education it doesn't mean you're going to work....

SamHamilton

Btw there shouldn't really be a question mark at the end of "Money = Better Education?". Its not really a question, more of an answer.

Yes there should. I'm questioning whether the statement is true or not. It's like asking: "That's a dog?"

genericgoon

cson wrote:

In our class based society of today, yes.

Btw there shouldn't really be a question mark at the end of "Money = Better Education?". Its not really a question, more of an answer.

well Cson the topic title just seems to be a shorter way of saying does having money mean a better education. The OP is questioning whether this statement is true therefore a ? is applicable

cson

I know you were asking a question. But imo its pretty simple really: it does.

SamHamilton

I feel that it's up to the student but, then again, if a student is doing well in a "normal" school he could be doing great in a "good" school, no?

melekalikimaka

i can't see how it wouldn't lead to a better education to be honest

genericgoon

Thats the crux of the problem.

eZe^

Ive been going to a fee paying school for 14 years, I personally thing the standard is much much better when compared to other public schools in the area. There is about 120 students in my year, average LC result in my school is 410. Our math standard is one of the best in the country, out of 27 students my teacher averages 23 As every year (I think the statistics were 100% higher than national average). I definitely think you get what you pay for, but I dont think the grind schools are worth that much extra when compared to a regular fee paying school.

genericgoon

Look its a fee payer! KILL EET! DOWN WITH THE BOURGEOIS SCUM!

joke.It is a bit unfair on us lowly plebians though isnt it?

cson

If you go to a fee paying grind school for example, what extra curricular activities do you do comparitive to a community/public school? No need for an answer there.

In fee paying grind schools you are constantly exposed to learning, most have compulsory after school study from say 5 to 9, everything is geared towards the examinations and you will more than likely have high quality teachers.

No doubt the institute/<insertgrindschoolhere> brigade won't be long in making their presence felt here saying it makes no difference, when in reality it does.

Geranium

eZe^ wrote:

Ive been going to a fee paying school for 14 years, I personally thing the standard is much much better when compared to other public schools in the area. There is about 120 students in my year, average LC result in my school is 410. Our math standard is one of the best in the country, out of 27 students my teacher averages 23 As every year (I think the statistics were 100% higher than national average). I definitely think you get what you pay for, but I dont think the grind schools are worth that much extra when compared to a regular fee paying school.

Id on't agree with that at all, I go to a Community School and there is a much better range of subjects than in many private schools. Our school had the highest Junior cert results in the country a few years ago. If you're going to a fee paying school you're probably well off and come from a family which is well educated, so that automatically gives you an advantage.

Also, results aren't a true indicator of a "good school", extra curricular and general atmosphere add a lot to your overall education.

There are a lot of schools in disadvantaged areas that could do with more funding though, it's a disgrace that the government gives money to fee paying schools. If you're able to pay for it, you don't need everyone else's taxes too.

SamHamilton

In fee paying grind schools you are constantly exposed to learning, most have compulsory after school study from say 5 to 9, everything is geared towards the examinations and you will more than likely have high quality teachers.

I'm glad you brought that up. Does money mean better exam grades and not a better overall education? Does the fact that people in "normal" schools have to work that little bit extra than fee-paying students mean that they learn more skills than the others? That they leave more educated although they may have lower grades on their CV's?

genericgoon

lets be honest people if you pay to go to a school I think youd expect, in general, to find a higher quality of teacher and resources otherwise youd have been wasting your money.

cson

Geranium wrote:

There are a lot of schools in disadvantaged areas that could do with more funding though, it's a disgrace that the government gives money to fee paying schools. If you're able to pay for it, you don't need everyone else's taxes too.

Touché. Its an absolute disgrace that teachers salaries in fee-paying schools are paid for by the government.

genericgoon

Also people try not to get confused between grind schools and fee-paying schools. Im sure not all fee schools are grind schools like the institute

chas_88

Judging from my own experience, I think fee-paying schools have exactly the same standard of teaching as any other schools. The fees just pay for facilities and prestige. My school, which is fee-paying, has a few atrocious teachers, and I know of outstanding teachers in non-fee-paying schools.

The only way money can improve your education is through grinds.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

I'm glad you brought that up. Does money mean better exam grades and not a better overall education? Does the fact that people in "normal" schools have to work that little bit extra than fee-paying students mean that they learn more skills than the others? That they leave more educated although they may have lower grades on their CV's?

Exactly.

Grind schools and to a lesser extent the fee-paying schools are geared towards exam results. You focus soley on the exams and do fúck all extra curricular activities.

So yes I would conclude that a person from a public school will have to work harder to obtain the same results as a person from a fee-paying school. However I think that this is paradoxically a good thing as you develop better as a person and find out a lot about yourself.

melekalikimaka

cson wrote:

Touché. Its an absolute disgrace that teachers salaries in fee-paying schools are paid for by the government.

not all fee paying schools, the school i went to paid the teachers themselves, as alot weren't actual teachers, but very well informed on the subject, which also adds to the broader learning experience, i went to public school i was given out to for moving off the 'course' in my fee paying it was encouraged.

Lucas10101

I don't attend a fee-paying school although I think the general perception being created is one where you are "locked" into education for the rest of the Leaving Cert., which probably isn't the case at all. I'm sure there's more social activities than being told here and it's not as bad as people are making out. That's not to say it has more extra cirricular activities than public schools.

eZe^

Hahaha, I dont like how people think if you go to a fee paying school the exam grades are good but other educational sides of it arent there. Thats just stupid, maybe in grind schools, one just has better teachers, youre not made study anymore or anyless than a normal school. There are **** loads of sports and extra curricular activities iswell, Its not like going to a private school means your a social retard!

Lucas10101 wrote:

I don't attend a fee-paying school although I think the general perception being created is one where you are "locked" into education for the rest of the Leaving Cert., which probably isn't the case at all. I'm sure there's more social activities than being told here and it's not as bad as people are making out. That's not to say it has more extra cirricular activities than public schools.

Exactly!

Blisterman

Well, one advantage to fee paying schools is the network of friends you develop, which could come in very handy later in life.

xha1r

cson wrote:

most have compulsory after school study from say 5 to 9

I doubt that very much.

cson

I know of two grind schools that do.

You'd probably get better quality facilities and extra curricular in a fee paying (NOT grind schools) cos of the extra money they have. Afaik Séan Dunne gave Clongowes €1 million to build pitches or something.

JC 2K3

Fee paying schools don't provide a better education, they're just perceived as so.

I think also that schools in less advantaged areas have too low expectations of their students, who already have low expecations of themselves, and therefore they fail to bring out the best in them.

One of the main reasons parents send their children to private schools is that they have nothing else to spend their money on and would like to assert a sense of prestige.

eZe^

xha1r wrote:

I doubt that very much.

hahah, too true, we finished everyday at 3.20!

melekalikimaka

JC 2K3 wrote:

One of the main reasons parents send their children to private schools is that they have nothing else to spend their money on and would like to assert a sense of prestige.

your idiotic statements imply you went to public school

FunkZ

cson wrote:

"Money = Better Education?". Its not really a question, more of an answer.

Not really. I've spent three years in a public school and three years in three different private schools. The public school was great, two of the private schools were complete rubbish where I'm sure most of my classmates from there will fail. And the private school I went to for sixth was the best school I've been in.

So from experience, I don't agree with money equals better education.

cson

LazyFingers wrote:

And the private school I went to for sixth was the best school I've been in.

So from experience, I don't agree with money equals better education.

Somewhat contradictory.

FunkZ

Not when you take into account that also said:

LazyFingers wrote:

The public school was great, two of the private schools were complete rubbish

I think this shows that I meant a good school can be a good school with or without a fee.

microbiek

i think a proverb applies: you can bring a gorse to watr but you cant....

JC 2K3

lol, gorse.

microbiek

JC 2K3 wrote:

lol, gorse.

haha.....horse

Corruptedmorals

I don't know, it depends on the person really. The whole thing is skewed, because private schools reflect the average-good-excellent students. You won't find many poor students there. They don'f offer LCA, very few offer LCVP and pass classes only in Maths or Irish, generally. They tend to not accept students with learning disabilities either. Same with grind schools, €6000, and no extra-curricular stuff.

There doesn't tend to be a huge boost in results if someone does the Leaving in a public school, then does it in the Institute. My cousin did the Leaving in her public school, then twice in the Institute, each time only going up by 5 points. Then that Robert guy in the Times supplement 'HOW ROVERT GOT 600 POINTS WHEN HE REPEATED AT THE INSTITUTE', with the fact he got 570 in his public school in much smaller print..it's not as if he got 200 first time around..

The only advantage I see with private schools is that the options aren't in blocks, you can do what subjects you want. Facilites tend to not be falling apart blah blah blah and you're pretty much guaranteed good teachers. Which looks like a lot but mehh, I liked my public school.

microbiek

Corruptedmorals wrote:

I don't know, it depends on the person really. The whole thing is skewed, because private schools reflect the average-good-excellent students. You won't find many poor students there. They don'f offer LCA, very few offer LCVP and pass classes only in Maths or Irish, generally. They tend to not accept students with learning disabilities either. Same with grind schools, €6000, and no extra-curricular stuff.

There doesn't tend to be a huge boost in results if someone does the Leaving in a public school, then does it in the Institute. My cousin did the Leaving in her public school, then twice in the Institute, each time only going up by 5 points. Then that Robert guy in the Times supplement 'HOW ROVERT GOT 600 POINTS WHEN HE REPEATED AT THE INSTITUTE', with the fact he got 570 in his public school in much smaller print..it's not as if he got 200 first time around..

The only advantage I see with private schools is that the options aren't in blocks, you can do what subjects you want. Facilites tend to not be falling apart blah blah blah and you're pretty much guaranteed good teachers. Which looks like a lot but mehh, I liked my public school.

not guaranteed btw

JC 2K3

Corruptedmorals wrote:

They don'f offer LCA, very few offer LCVP and pass classes only in Maths or Irish, generally.

The only advantage I see with private schools is that the options aren't in blocks, you can do what subjects you want. Facilites tend to not be falling apart blah blah blah and you're pretty much guaranteed good teachers.

That's basically my school, and it's public(though our facilities were crap 4 years ago, since then we got a class new sports hall and new clasroom block).

My theory is basically: Gaelscoileanna = win.

Splinkk

I cant stand the whole grind school system. I hate the way people who leave in 6th year to go to the institute say, then come back to their previous school to sit the exams because its "convienient" coz they live just across the road.

A close friend of mine, who is slightly snobby in nature tried this. My principal though, can't stand the institute either, refuses anyone who tried to just saunter back in after them practically saying to him "Right, your school isnt good enough for me, byebye"

My friend was so annoyed about this, as, and I quote:
"I would have had such an advantage sitting my leaving cert there, as my paper would have shone, as Im coming from the outside and mine would be different"

Just a dumbed down version of saying "I paid 6 grand for this, so mines bound to be better"

My school is a public, non fee paying school. Last year, and years before, people got 600 and quite a few got 500 and over.
Money has nothing to do with it. Its the amount of work you do for it and your natural ability.

Another thing, those supplements in the paper a while ago, all about the institute really bothered me too, with their statistics of "The institute has the highest percentage of students in ireland going to third level education afterwards."

I mean. Of course it bloody does. Whose going to fork out 6 grand for the Leaving Cert then NOT go to college?

SamHamilton

Another thing, those supplements in the paper a while ago, all about the institute really bothered me too, with their statistics of "The institute has the highest percentage of students in ireland going to third level education afterwards."

Then there are the statistics (the ones that probably aren't real statistics but are all over the place!) that high numbers of students of the Institute end up dropping out of college because they're not being spoonfed which raises the point that:

Money can buy you a good LC but not a good education.

Corruptedmorals

Yeah exactly, and how they have the most people with 600 as well...of course they do, isn't there 2000 students and most schools have about 90? And none of those 2000 students are doing mostly Pass, and the ones that'll get 600 have been sent/wanted to go to the Institute to 'maximise' their chances of getting the 600, chances are they'd have gotten it in their public school..

xha1r

JC 2K3 wrote:

Fee paying schools don't provide a better education, they're just perceived as so.

I think also that schools in less advantaged areas have too low expectations of their students, who already have low expecations of themselves, and therefore they fail to bring out the best in them.

One of the main reasons parents send their children to private schools is that they have nothing else to spend their money on and would like to assert a sense of prestige.

Yes, they do. There's a big difference between teacher's in the Institute compared to some of those in your average public school, i.e., the proportion of quality teacher's in private schools is greater than that in public school's.

That last part is idiotic; they send them to private schools because they want them to receive the best education. I would say the majority of students in private school's come from middle-class families with parents who have above-average paying jobs and a house with a mortgage. Not all, in fact, not many parents are rich enough to "have nothing else to spend their money on".

Splinkk

xha1r wrote:

Yes, they do. There's a big difference between teacher's in the Institute compared to some of those in your average public school, i.e., the proportion of quality teacher's in private schools is greater than that in public school's.

How can you say that? Sure, there are some wonderful teachers in the institute, but Ive also heard of woaful ones. Same with a public school, youre going to have a few wonderful ones, and a few bad ones.
Its all the same course. Its the Leaving Cert. You dont get something extra special that the rest of us dont get, you just get "fantastic" notes spoonfed to you.

SamHamilton

you just get "fantastic" notes spoonfed to you.

.

cson

Were you gonna say something?

SamHamilton

Sorry, I thought it was obvious. He says that you just get fantastic notes spoonfed to you but that is quite a big point. It can mean a world of difference to a student. I'm not sure whether he was being sarcastic about how "fantastic" the notes were or whether he felt that word wasn't a great word to describe them but regardless of all that, spoonfeeding is an advantage (for the LC exam).

Setun

Well I've read this argument on boards a handful of times before (it surfaces in the LC forum at least bi-annually) so forgive me if I skip through the last three pages and repeat anything that may have already been said.

Money seems to provide better amenities, but it's up to the student to make good use of them. As far as a worldly education goes, rich parents will do sweet FA for you. Independence is key.

xha1r

Splinkk wrote:

How can you say that? Sure, there are some wonderful teachers in the institute, but Ive also heard of woaful ones. Same with a public school, youre going to have a few wonderful ones, and a few bad ones.
Its all the same course.

Well first of all, I go to the Institute, so I'm in a position to comment on the standard of teaching there. And as such, I can say that I haven't heard one person complain about a teacher; except once. That teacher subsequently "left" the school.

As for the course being the same argument; I can't think of a great metaphor, but a suitable one would be that of a car. Two cars will share similar components, all necessary to make that car function. It's how they're put together and the quality of those components that define the better car.

It's the same with the Leaving Cert course. How it is presented and the quality of the notes covering the course are what differentiate one school from another.

Splinkk wrote:

You dont get something extra special that the rest of us dont get, you just get "fantastic" notes spoonfed to you.

Those "fantastic" notes are that "something extra special."

cson

Daddio wrote:

Money seems to provide better amenities, but it's up to the student to make good use of them. As far as a worldly education goes, rich parents will do sweet FA for you. Independence is key.

Having the rich parent safety net cant be good for your motivation though. I suppose you can console yourself with the fact that if the LC all goes balls up then you can make a nice living out of Daddys estate/business.

Having said that I'm sure there are a number of parents out there that take out loans etc in order to send their kids to fee paying schools.