Do Trans and L.G.B really belong together

Filan

I write this as many are aware...as someone who is continuing to question (without any resolution in sight, One therapist said he think's I'm androgynous...almost Gender neutral) their Gender Identity. Throughout this process I have availed of some services which are primarily targeted at L.G.B....and while the Professionals were/are great...I felt quite a divide between myself and L.G.B. clients.. Thursday entered a gay bar for the first time ever...and well it was with intrepedidation..would a Gender Non-conformist fit and/or be made welcome in a Gay venue? Jury is still out...perhaps T is simply too small in most cities to stand alone...I suppose everyone, gay/bi/straight/trans/Gender Queer etc is different...there is warm and cold everywhere...but ultimately I wouldn't be writing this if I felt at home with L.G.B. services..to an extent I do...but to a considerable extent I don't .... I don't expect that there is many other Gender Digressors here to answer from my side of the fence..but interested in Gay opinions here...do you feel L.G.B and T share much common ground?

Boston

Nope.

Filan

Agreed, have the distinct feeling that they don't either...often operating together.. even though a lot of events such as 'pride' group them togther...both digressors from conventions...both are variants ...no in my heart don't feel I've that much in common with Gay people. A friend suggested that I would be better off in gay or bi venues as they would be less judgmental and more understanding of difference..are they?

Incidentally when people see me wearing make up..the first question that most ask me is "Are you gay?!"

Hmm_Messiah

what intrinsically defines transgender has nothing in common with what intrinsically "defines" LGB

what individuals may experience as trangendered or LGB - isolation, confusion, discrimination, ignorance etc are I'm sure shared to differing extents .

I don't understand terms such as gender transgressors, nor as a bi man do I feel like I digress from convention.

iosfra

"Isolation, confusion, discrimination, ignorance etc” is something everyone will experience in their life regardless of sexual orientation. I am a lesbian and know that I could in no way identify with what a transgender person might go through but I could say the exact same thing about other gay or straight people. Your sexuality is not a personality trait it is a minor factor in who you are as a whole.

It is just convenient to have L.G.B.T all together in one little box, boxes are comfortable and we should not question which one we are put in……

Rev Hellfire

Surely what defines Lesbian/Gay/Bisexuality is simply a sexual preference.

While transsexual/Transvestite behavior is a combination of gender identity dysfunction and/or fetish behavior. Either the sex/sexuality or medical/Psychology forums would be more appropriate locations for it. Certainly there's no reason not to put a request for a subforum under one of those if you think the interest would be there.

Hmm_Messiah

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Surely what defines Lesbian/Gay/Bisexuality is simply a sexual preference.

a preference? no.

Stark

Rev_Hellfire wrote:

While transsexual/Transvestite behavior is a combination of gender identity dysfunction and/or fetish behavior. Either the sex/sexuality or medical/Psychology forums would be more appropriate locations for it. Certainly there's no reason not to put a request for a subforum under one of those if you think the interest would be there.

According to the charter, the forum is for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues. Transvestitism has nothing to do with us.

Rev Hellfire

Stark wrote:

According to the charter, the forum is for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues. Transvestitism has nothing to do with us.

I simply included the transvestite in with the transgender since I was under the impression that they where commonly grouped together when referring to the T in LGBT.

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

a preference? no.

Would orientation be a better word? If not, how would you define it in a single sentence out of curiosity?

Hmm_Messiah

hi , the problem I have with preference is it suggests a choice or option.

Is heterosexuality a choice or option ? Orientation works for me .

A one sentence definition ?

A predominant sexual, physical and/or romantic/emotional attract to the same sex or either sex with or without corrsponding sexual behaviour

Stark

Rev_Hellfire wrote:

I was under the impression that they where commonly grouped together when referring to the T in LGBT.

Not the case at all.

Nevyn

It is the whole drag queen cross over tbh,
Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a hetrosexual guy who likes skirts,
sometimes a guy in a skirt is a homosexual guy who likes skirts,
somestimes a guy in a skirt is Trandgendered person who may or may not be hetrosexual or homosexual to thier inner gender.
It can be hard to tell.

moridin

But what about the women in trousers? We have nobody to champion their rights!

Stark

Well we're not adding the Power Dyke initials to our name...

Beruthiel

Hey! that's racialisim and stuff Stark!

Rev Hellfire

Stark wrote:

Not the case at all.

So it would seem here. Although wikiphedia seems to imply that transsexual is used as a more broad brush to cover transexuals, transvestites and genderqueers (never heard of them before) when applied to LGBT.

I like your definition Hmm_Messiah

Filan

The reality is that T is incredibly broad....as broad on it's own as L.G.B I'd say...the same people may exhibit the same outward T behaviour but for completely different reasons...Some men wear womens clothes for sexual reasons with no desire to actually be a woman..others wear the same garments but would prefer to actually be women...there is so many shades...nature is full of diversity..Gender Queer is where one exhibit's behaviour atypical of one's biological gender..but does not necessarily wish to undergo any surrgical procedures..one is therefore Queer of one's conventional Gender role ...feel this is possibly where I belong..but again everyone is different..I blame the binary system..for restricting the remit of males and females..but again even people with the same feelings view them differently.

Hmm_Messiah

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I like your definition Hmm_Messiah

that gym subscription finally pays off.

Being vaguely non-conformist I admit I still like the convention of sentencess rather than fragments.

and all the periods !!! tis one reason I went ghey

Karl Hungus

Thaedydal wrote:

It is the whole drag queen cross over tbh,
Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a hetrosexual guy who likes skirts,
sometimes a guy in a skirt is a homosexual guy who likes skirts,
somestimes a guy in a skirt is Trandgendered person who may or may not be hetrosexual or homosexual to thier inner gender.
It can be hard to tell.

Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a scotsman.

Nevyn

I said skirt not kilt :P

Lemming

Karl Hungus wrote:

Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a scotsman.

People have been thrown out of 1st floor windows for less my boy ....

Filan

There's no doubt in my mind that Gender role's are gradually becoming more fluid...apparently a hundred years ago the idea of women ever wearing pant's was considered an absurdity... Needs as stated in another forum an articulate leader who can communicate the variable Trans position in a concise logical manner that is easily understood. Without investigation the idea of a man wanting to be a woman or visa versa appears absurd. But when explained....such as difficulty fulfilling conventional Gender roles it is to some extent rational. I personally have no desire for breasts or an optical vagina...a lot of people do actually understand my trouble fitting in...people who know me as a person understand quite a lot....again my problem is primarily with the artifical 'Binary Gender System'..not primarily with my body...I can only speak for myself..some Trans people do hate their bodies..I don't hate mine... But no I don't feel there is that much common ground with L.G.B...actually feel more comfortable in a 'regular' pub...as I want to blend in as much as possible..and don't want to isolate myself

Don't personally see any need for L.G.B on Boards to become L.G.B.T, there is plenty of T support sites and I suspect the numbers on Boards are probably too small for a separate T forum. T is quite different from L.G.B...and despite being T myself i don't feel necessarily belongs with L.G. and B....distinctly different in my view

Regards
Alan

PhantomBeaker

Rev Hellfire wrote:

So it would seem here. Although wikiphedia seems to imply that transsexual is used as a more broad brush to cover transexuals, transvestites and genderqueers (never heard of them before) when applied to LGBT.

Actually, no. You're referring to transgender as opposed to transsexual, and there is a difference (for reference, you say transsexual, but your link points to transgender).

For clarity, "transsexual" means someone who wishes to change their body.
"Transgender" can either be the umbrella term to mean transsexuals, transvestites and genderqueers, or it can be a term in its own right separate from transsexualism.

However, transsexual is a well-defined term and isn't used as a broad term.

PB.

Nevyn

Thanks for the clarifcation PhantomBeaker
and nice sig.

Rev Hellfire

Indeed your are correct I mislinked.
But I think the point still stands that there is/was an association with the lgb community (at least as far as internet forums go). That's not to say its appropriate for this forum or indeed relevant, I myself don't see any real connection between the two camps.

LegacyUser

Do you ever get called a fag? A dyke? or other slurs about your sexuality when you're simply walking down the street?

Yes? Well how did that person on the other side of the street know you're gay, lesbian or bi? They didn't. They judged that from your gender expression. Gender expression has a huge root in homophobia. If you 'look like a fag' you look like an effeminate man. Masculine women 'look like' lesbians or maybe you are a femme lesbian and yer sick of people in gay clubs assuming you're a fag hag. We're guilty of the same gender assumptions as the person across the street afterall.
They (and sometimes we) relate (incorrectly) gender and sexuality in todays society. So though gender and sexuality are seperate things, homophobia relates them both which is why there is an LGBT movement - because if everyone accepted LGBT people without andy prejudice at all there wouldn't be need of one. Transphobia is homophobia and vice versa in a loooot of ways.

Not to mention the LGBT movement being STARTED by Trans people in the first place.
Not to mention that Trans people are LG and B as well as being Trans. (I don't stop having sexual urges because I'm trans ok?)

I know you might not understand it and hell you might not even like it but Trans issues have huge overlap with LGB issues. And as I tell all the Transsexual people who may not want to be associated with LGB... we are. It's a simple fact at the end of the day. Deal with it. Should or shouldn't all you want.

Brynn

Hi. Was alerted to this thread on an Irish transgender listserve and thought I'd drop by and respectfully add my 2 cents worth. I'm a female-to-male transsexual (FtM) who lives in Dublin and identifies as queer. That's right, since transition I've loved and been partnered with both men and women. So it will come as no surprise that I feel strongly that LGBQ and T quite naturally belong together.

First, there are a fair number of us trannies who identify as LGB or Q after transition, their inclusion should be a given. Likewise, though, a large number of us identified as LGB or Q before transition. Do we just lose all that history? Do the hormones or surgeries, if we opt for them, wipe our minds of our memories and our hearts of our former passion and alliances?

Take myself, for example. I was born female, still have a partially female body (FtM lower surgery doesn't tempt many of us) and have 40 years of being treated by society as a woman. I lived and was active in the dyke community in San Francisco for a decade before sorting out that I was actually FtM. I’m a mother of a grown daughter. And I remain an outspoken feminist. Say I were only dating women now--looking to the world like a hetero couple. Would you call me straight? Don’t forget, what I do in bed is what dykes do. How about if I’m dating men? My ex-boyfriend and I were as much at risk of being gay-bashed as any gay couple. Was I straight then?

The simple fact of the matter is, no matter who I’m dating now, I will never be straight. (Thankfully!)

Moreover, one could make a strong argument that in a society (ours) founded on the belief that men should sleep with women and women with men, each and every one of YOU who has sex with a same-sex partner is engaging in "trans-gendered" behaviour. I mean, think about it. Men w/men and women w/ women is at least as trans as a man putting on a dress or a woman applying spirit-gum and facial hair!

Finally, and this is a big one, those people out there who hate queers--and there are still many of them!-- don't make fine distinctions. In fact, I'd bet money on the fact that they'd laugh themselves silly--oh, no, that would be "too gay" for them—they’d rub their hands in glee to know that we're spending so much time and energy arguing among ourselves about whether or not to include "T" with LGB. It makes their job of keeping us second-class citizen all that much easier.

Thanks for the chance to have my say….:cool:

Boston

Welcome to this forum. Just like to point out in case it was missed. Transgender posts and Topics have always been welcome on this forum.

Anyway; I agree with a lot of what you say (i'll get to what I don't agree with in a second). I definitely identify with the Queer and Bi-sexual labels, however there is a wide varity of flavours within both groupings that I don't related to at all. You can put everyone under the same label or separate everyone out into a unique on, that doesn't affect how much people are able to relate to one another. I've no idea what it means to be transgendered, I've kinda got an Idea what it's like to be a gay male, and I've again no real idea about what it means to be a lesbian, Yet I'll happily say all the people in these grouping are Queer and so am I. I've more in common with hetrosexual behavioural "norms" then any other grouping.

So yes, society might threat us all the same, but the reality is we're not.

As for what I don't agree with: The meaning of Trans gendered can't be stretched like that. I've had sex with a guy and imho it's probably the most masculine thing a man can do, certainly not effeminate.

Brynn

Boston wrote:

As for what I don't agree with: The meaning of Trans gendered can't be stretched like that. I've had sex with a guy and imho it's probably the most masculine thing a man can do, certainly not effeminate.

Thanks for the welcome!

But are you pulling my chain, Boston? I didn't say gay male sex was effeminate. I said that given society expects you, as a man, to only want sex with women, the fact you're desiring and having sex with a man is "trans-gendered" behaviour.

Trans doesn't mean effeminate...if it did, where would that leave me? It means that your behaviour or identity defies what is considered "normal" for your gender. Men wanting sex with men and women wanting sex with women IS, by its very nature, trans-gendered.

Oh, in some societies by the way, the bottom in gay male sex is considered to be "effeminate." As a feminist, I've long believed that homophobia is, at its heart, founded on misogyny.

Boston

Brynn wrote:

But are you pulling my chain, Boston? I didn't say gay male sex was effeminate. I said that given society expects you, as a man, to only want sex with women, the fact you're desiring and having sex with a man is "trans-gendered" behaviour.

Transgendered to for me is associated with gender role reversal. I don't see anything wrong with that view or anything to contradict it. I also don't see how fits in with being with a member of the same sex. I'm a man, as masculine as any, some magic doesn't happen in the bed room to stop that.

Trans doesn't mean effeminate...if it did, where would that leave me? It means that your behaviour or identity defies what is considered "normal" for your gender. Men wanting sex with men and women wanting sex with women IS, by its very nature, trans-gendered.

Even if I didn't have sex with guys, my sexual behaviour would probably still be outside the norms for your average Irish male.

Oh, in some societies by the way, the bottom in gay male sex is considered to be "effeminate." As a feminist, I've long believed that homophobia is, at its heart, founded on misogyny.

Well all I can say is that men who say that clearly have never had sex with another man.

Rev Hellfire

I must admit I don't really see the connection you're trying to make.
The crux of transgenderism (is there such a word?) is the perceived gender mismatch an individual has between their mental and physical self.

A gay/lesbian/bisexual doesn't have that, they're on the whole quite comfortable with their gender in the same way a straight person is.

Brynn

Boston, you say, "Transgendered to for me is associated with gender role reversal."

Ok, I totally agree with you. So, in mainstream society is it considered "normal" for men to have sex with women? With men? Or with both?

Granted, we've made progress in society. For many, maybe even most people, gays and bisexuals are no longer considered "sick." Nevertheless, most people still believe that "normal" sexual behaviour is for men to have sex with women, not with other men.

Therefore, men who do have sex with and desire other men are engaging in what society considers a gender role reversal. What they are doing is a reversal of what is considered "normal" gender behaviour for men.

Emo Girl J

Rev Hellfire wrote:

A gay/lesbian/bisexual doesn't have that, they're on the whole quite comfortable with their gender in the same way a straight person is.

Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

They are comfortable with their sex, their physical bodies.

I'm sure at least some are uncomfortable with their gender, which includes the societal expectations of how they should act. Male gender means you're supposed to be "masculine", dominant and aggressive. I know many guys of any sexuality (including straight) who don't feel comfortable with that.

LegacyUser

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I must admit I don't really see the connection you're trying to make.
The crux of transgenderism (is there such a word?) is the perceived gender mismatch an individual has between their mental and physical self.

A gay/lesbian/bisexual doesn't have that, they're on the whole quite comfortable with their gender in the same way a straight person is.

I think we've established that LGB people aren't Transgender people otherwishe we'd just have 'T' instead of so many bloody letters (might make things easier though).
The point we're argueing is that there is a connection there. Which, in my eyes, there clearly is.

Hmm_Messiah

personally I find the anon. posting curious - to me it reads as a more coherent rehash of what rozie might say. However i still don't agree with a word of it - I see Zero in common between T.and LGB and nothing posted demostrates otherwise.

The association is not a simple "matter of fact" - it is a fallacy

Nor does my gender, gender role, or gender identity have anything to do with my sexuality.

Brynn wrote:

That's right, since transition I've loved and been partnered with both men and women. So it will come as no surprise that I feel strongly that LGBQ and T quite naturally belong together.

First, there are a fair number of us trannies who identify as LGB or Q after transition, their inclusion should be a given. ones or surgeries, if we opt for them, wipe our minds of our memories and our hearts of our former passion and alliances?

Moreover, one could make a strong argument that in a society (ours) founded on the belief that men should sleep with women and women with men, each and every one of YOU who has sex with a same-sex partner is engaging in "trans-gendered" behaviour. I mean, think about it. Men w/men and women w/ women is at least as trans as a man putting on a dress or a woman applying spirit-gum and facial hair!

welcome to the forum. all you have demonstrated is that you are trans and also within LGB.

That is not far removed from the fact i am pagan and gay,that i am bald and gay, left handed and gay. There is no argument for a pagan left handed LGBPL forum name.

I think some part of the problem is how people use words but even in the broadest interpretation gender and sexuality are distinct.

and same sex physical activity is not transgendered in any way - sorry but that is nonsense.

of course you are right though ,there is no reason within LGB there would be groupings of transgendered, or rural folk, or us must maligned sinistrals

PhantomBeaker

Ugh, this about 2:15 so I'm a little incoherent, but I'll probably tidy a few mistakes in the morning

@Hmm_messiah: I think the point that Mr Moose is working towards is that, at the end of the day, there are uniting factors.

An effeminate male is a target, and will likely be called a **** as he's beaten.
Just as a masculine woman is a target, and will likely be called a "dyke" as she's hurt.
An effeminate male, passing (possibly unintentionally) as female, with a woman, could both be beaten as "dykes" etc.
Similarly, a masculine woman and a guy could also endure a similar situation.

Are they necessarily any of those things that they're being called? Not really. Do they have to be LGB or trans? Nope.

Do they have to deal with the same crap as the LGB community, pretty much. They're called the same things, right? They're beaten the same way.

Called the same names, beaten the same way (if they catch us). That's a common link between the LGB and T communities, but, yeah... in the pub, sitting around a table with some drinks, we're absolutely worlds apart, until someone from the outside looks at us, then we have a common problem.

Does it make sense for the two groups to deal with the same problem separately? In my mind, not really.

If that little issue disappeared by magic, we'd probably have a lot less in common and could go our own ways, but 'til then, we do, at least, have that common bond. We could all try and explain how we're different. The bisexuals could try and explain how they're not fags, because they don't exclusively like the same sex. The trans people could explain that just because they look one way that they're not necessarily gay. The emo kids, they can try and explain that it's just their makeup and hair and nothing to do with their gender or sexuality.

In the end, it's only us who actually know the difference.

It's only us who care that we're not the other letters of LGB or T.

To the rest, we're all the same. They couldn't care less.

We could probably do more about this united. It can be a temporary alliance, if you want, at least until we have accurate discrimination - you know, the kind where someone sees a transperson on the street, and they get hassle for being a tranny, rather than being gay or lesbian, or the emo kid who gets hassle for liking My Chemical Romance, rather than people assuming they're faggots or dykes or trannies or whatever. At least that will be a start... it will at least mean that people outside can tell the difference.

Until then, we're lumped all the same.

Might as well give them what we want, yeah? We're at least a little less fragmented, and a little stronger that way.

The matter of fact isn't that we're the same, the matter of fact is that we're *seen* as being the same.

@Thaedydal: Glad you like the sig.

Take care,
PB.

Rev Hellfire

Emo Girl J wrote:

Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

They are comfortable with their sex, their physical bodies.

I'm sure at least some are uncomfortable with their gender, which includes the societal expectations of how they should act. Male gender means you're supposed to be "masculine", dominant and aggressive. I know many guys of any sexuality (including straight) who don't feel comfortable with that.

The thing is in all those cases the person (homosexual/Bi/Straight) may have have issues with the cultural expectations imposed on them for their gender, but and this is the important thing in my view, at no point do they actually wish or see themselves as members of the opposite gender.

Brynn

PhantomBeaker wrote:

The matter of fact isn't that we're the same, the matter of fact is that we're *seen* as being the same.

Exactly! I was discussing behaviour and perception, not identity. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.

And if what we're interested in is improving our lot in life, we're much stronger together than fragmented.

And I'd suggest that some of the resistance on the parts of LGB folk to understanding their commonality with T lies with transphobia, in the same way that resistance on the parts of trans people to recognise their commonality with LGB rests with homophobia. In the end, all of these divisions serve the interests of our enemies.

LegacyUser

See I think calling it a 'temporary alliance' is a bit rich too because let's face it - I can't see workshops for bigots on 'How to decipher if they're a tranny or a fag' are going to work or ever going to happen. (If you wanna run that workshop fairly nuff, I'll be on the other side of the street thanks).
When homophobia and equally transphobia are dead and buried then we can part seperate ways if you want, but that's like saying without homophobia we wouldn't have gay bars. There wouldn't be a need for them, but would there be a want? So good luck getting rid of us then. When the time for the big LGB vote would come in you'd realise just how many trans people there are in your ranks doing things and getting off their asses for you aswell as themselves.

I've got another question: Why would you like to seperate yourself from the Trans contingent so much? Just semantics? Just a scientific want to logically catagorise things? I can understand all that and I don't condem it though logically having to argue all the time where and why I fit in somewhere is exhausting, I don't think those reasons aren't valid to question something.

One last teeny tiny annoyance:
Don't you ever ever call this Moouse 'Rozie'. I'm not. I'm sure the IP's have been checked. I'm sure it's clear to the Mods I'm not. I'm just too lazy to try remember what my boards password actually is.
That's a real pathetic way to try argue with my points by just lumping them as 'Rozie'. It's real easy to make things you can't argue go away by just blaming them on the radical view of 'an etremeist' or someone you don't like.
Please.

LegacyUser

"In the end, all of these divisions serve the interests of our enemies"

That is the end all and be all.
I'd love to see me fighting for gay marriage for trans people but not the gays, I'd be laughed out of Ireland.

Hmm_Messiah

Huh ? god this is Deteriorating into nonsense.

"We are not the same but should be grouped the same because thats how others see us ? and because we all get beaten up "

FIrst off I've never gotten beaten up, abused, heckled, or by any one significant -judged - darn I can't belong now to this group who defines itself not by what it is, but what it feels others see it as.

It would be a very long name if we grouped every one who suffers violence - homophobic, xenophobic, domestic abuse, racial etc etc etc

and sorry no one I know groups me with T., I have never been subject to this attitude you seem to assume ALL others have of ALL LGB.

You realise those non LGB are individuals ? not a single entity.

"The resistance to LGB to understanding a commoniality is" ...because it doesn't exist.... and talking about enemies makes it some matrix revolutions like battle against "us" and "them" - like the movie - a truly awful idea

They are not "seen the same", and by those who do see things that way your argument only encourages their ignorance.


I understand both your opinions, but they seem to want to perputate how you see the present situation - and seems to want tackle inaccuracies by... continuing them

LegacyUser

"FIrst off I've never gotten beaten up, abused, heckled, or by any one significant -judged - darn I can't belong now to this group who defines itself not by what it is, but what it feels others see it as."

That's so great! You can just take your same sex partner by the hand to the office party, walk down the streets with no fear 'out and proud' around Dublin city where no homophobic beatings ever happen and then (if you want) you can get happily married and adopt a kid, or even have your own child and everything can be grand!


oh... wait a second...

Just because discrimination hasn't affected you (and I am genuinely happy for you, no sarcasm at all) doesn't mean it's not there.
And just because you don't feel judged doesn't mean you're not being.

"It would be a very long name if we grouped every one who suffers violence - homophobic, xenophobic, domestic abuse, racial etc etc etc"

Talking about innacuracies...
No one actually said that, at all. We were talking about homophobia only and not anything else. We're not trying to group anything that's not related.

The simple fact that 'transgender' exrepssion and going against a gender role norm (by being a man who shags loves is partnered with another man or by telling the world your physical sex is different to your gender expression) means we're united. That's 'what it is'. Gender and sexually being intertwined in human society is 'what it is', not what 'it's seen as'. Go walk into the womens bathrooms as a visible man and you'll know all about 'what it is' and not what people see it is. It's the reality we live in!

Peoples ignorance about us is not due to the 'T' being on LGB. Has anyone really gone 'You're gay, oh right so you're a guy who wears womens clothing then eh?'. Equally no one thought me being Trans meant I was gay.
Next argument please.

You're right though, this is getting rather ridiculous.

LegacyUser

I personally think slappin them together benifits only people who want to lump everyone into catagories...
I wouldn't have the faintest clue about anything to do with transgender...i had to actually look up FtM like! I think one is a genetic disorder (i hope that isnt offensive to anyone- its just like dont transgender people think they were *born* the "worng gender") the other is a mater of who you sleep with!

I take what was said before that many people exibit both- aka are "gay" before they transition, or after havin an op or whatever still perfer people of the same gender...some people are bi no matter what their gender is and that don't change...other people are more fluid in their sexuality etc...
but i see them as two entirely separate emtities that OFCOURSE the same person can have as messiah pointed out!

Boston

Brynn wrote:

Boston, you say, "Transgendered to for me is associated with gender role reversal."

Ok, I totally agree with you. So, in mainstream society is it considered "normal" for men to have sex with women? With men? Or with both?

Granted, we've made progress in society. For many, maybe even most people, gays and bisexuals are no longer considered "sick." Nevertheless, most people still believe that "normal" sexual behaviour is for men to have sex with women, not with other men.

Therefore, men who do have sex with and desire other men are engaging in what society considers a gender role reversal. What they are doing is a reversal of what is considered "normal" gender behaviour for men.

Yes, but the opinions of other people don't come into how I definte myself. I guess it comes down to what you see as the male/female roles. By your definition all thsoe women who started taking jobs that where traditionally exclusively the male domain are transgendered, or stay at home dads for that matter. I don't think they would really define themselves as such. I can see you point, I just don't view things the way you do.

And I'd suggest that some of the resistance on the parts of LGB folk to understanding their commonality with T lies with transphobia, in the same way that resistance on the parts of trans people to recognise their commonality with LGB rests with homophobia. In the end, all of these divisions serve the interests of our enemies.

Ah here, thats a bit OTT. I've heard the same type of thing else where, in relation to straights not willing to "accept that they are a little gay too", it was OTT then and still is. I do not identify with the banner specific to you. I'm perfectly willing to accept that I may have things in common with a transgendered person, but sharing the same views of gender and sexuality probably isn't going to be one of them.

As for enemies; Thats a tad militant.

Hmm_Messiah: It makes some kind of sense that people who are all abused by society in the same way would grow an affinity towards each other. A bound of solidarity.

Hmm_Messiah

anonnymoouse wrote:

oh... wait a second...

Just because discrimination hasn't affected you (and I am genuinely happy for you, no sarcasm at all) doesn't mean it's not there.
And just because you don't feel judged doesn't mean you're not being.

"It would be a very long name if we grouped every one who suffers violence - homophobic, xenophobic, domestic abuse, racial etc etc etc"

Talking about innacuracies...
No one actually said that, at all. We were talking about homophobia only and not anything else. We're not trying to group anything that's not related.

The simple fact that 'transgender' exrepssion and going against a gender role norm (by being a man who shags loves is partnered with another man or by telling the world your physical sex is different to your gender expression) means we're united. That's 'what it is'. Gender and sexually being intertwined in human society is 'what it is', not what 'it's seen as'. Go walk into the womens bathrooms as a visible man and you'll know all about 'what it is' and not what people see it is. It's the reality we live in!

Peoples ignorance about us is not due to the 'T' being on LGB. Has anyone really gone 'You're gay, oh right so you're a guy who wears womens clothing then eh?'. Equally no one thought me being Trans meant I was gay.
Next argument please.

You're right though, this is getting rather ridiculous.

I'd beginning to wonder if every "T" that posted here had problems with logic

it is in fact exactly what you said - justifying the link because of discrimination. I extended your "argument" to increase the black immigrant handicapped person . Or is it u have to have a difficult time AND be LGB?

Btw LGB should really be about more than difficult times


I am sure this will sound patronising but you seem happy to use sociological terms without and real grasp of their meaning but to reduce it to plainer language LGB broadly equates to "not-hetero"- how does transgendered equate to that? (Objectively)

And Boston I agree with the idea that people with shared experiences would feel an affinity - I said that in my first post.

I'd personally feel an affinity to "some" experiences of those in womens support movement, or addiction support, and more, but not so much I'd want them to tag on a label to fit me in, nor do I allow what I feel I have in common blind me to the simple realities - this is not a complex issue

ChrisCross

Justifying the link because of HOMOPHOBIA not general discrimination but specifically HOMOPHOBIA. (maybe caps will help??)

How is LGB about more than difficult times? Honestly. Is it just the sex then for you? Honestly explain this Reverand.

Transgender is by nature 'non-hetero'. That's almost a core part of what transgender is. (note I didn't say transsexual).

Yes, people with commonalities should f off out of your group. Understood completely... wait.. No... I don't understand at all.

Why again do you have such an issue with this?

Rev Hellfire

ChrisCross wrote:

Justifying the link because of HOMOPHOBIA not general discrimination but specifically HOMOPHOBIA. (maybe caps will help??)

How is LGB about more than difficult times? Honestly. Is it just the sex then for you? Honestly explain this Reverand.

Well I'm kind of on the outside looking in on this one, but from what I can see the forum is about LGB issues (of which discrimination is but a part, health for example would be another) and also the LGB subculture.
Perhaps I just don't see them as victims with nothing more to do than complain about their discriminations, but from looking at the forum it seems to me neither do they.

ChrisCross wrote:

Transgender is by nature 'non-hetero'. That's almost a core part of what transgender is. (note I didn't say transsexual).

Transgender is as connected to heterosexuality as left handedness is. Heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality all indicate a persons sexual ordination, transgender using the standard dictionary definition of the word is about gender identity. For example you can't have a straight homosexual but you can have transgender who has homosexual or heterosexual inclinations.

ChrisCross wrote:

Yes, people with commonalities should f off out of your group. Understood completely... wait.. No... I don't understand at all.

Why again do you have such an issue with this?

I'm not sure I understand the issue here, from what I see the members of this community are saying that discussions about transgender are welcome. So how is anyone been told to f off ?

ChrisCross

I don't see us as victims but I see LGBT as more of a political alignment and community then just 'random group of people'.
If we were truly just people and there was no stigma behind which partner we choose then yes, you'd be right, we'd just be a random group of people.

Transgender is as connected to heterosexuality as left handedness is. Heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality all indicate a persons sexual ordination, transgender using the standard dictionary definition of the word is about gender identity. For example you can't have a straight homosexual but you can have transgender who has homosexual or heterosexual inclinations.

What's a heterosexual or homosexual influence for a person who doesn't see themselves as having a gender? Just out of curiosity?
Also what is a homosexual or heterosexual for a transwoman say pre-transition but very sure of her gender identity. When do her relationships switch from being say hetero to homo? Thus the nature of gender is core to sexual relationships but sexual relationships that are not the norm. What other sexual relationships are not the norm? Same sex relationships are considered not to be the norm.
Thus the nature of the general term of transgender (crossing gender) would infact make it much more aligned than left handedness which you keep saying but not explaining how. It's a rather weak analogy. Especially when I feel like we've both accepted there are commonalities which there certainly are NOT for people who are lefthanded and gay (besides we've already got an L!!).

There is a great great difference between tolerance and acceptance or between understanding and tolerance even. You might say I'm welcome, I feel like I'd be open to attack on the basis of who I am and not what I say and that at the core of it, people think I don't belong here. I'd feel like I'd have to justify my involvement.
Why am I bothering now even? I've been working with LGB groups since I was 15, I shouldn't have to justify why I'm here. I am here. It is with LG and B and no I don't see it as an innacuracy at all.

I don't think we're going to aggree, but hey, the discussion was fun, at least it didn't dissolve into personal attacks.

Boston

ChrisCross, have to say I'm not loving your tone here. Posters have been expressly welcomed on this thread, and it's been made very clear that no one is being told to fuk off from this forum. No one has attacked you for who being transgendered on this thread, no on has attacked anyone on this thread so far. If you where not welcome to post here you'd be in no doubt about it. The thread isn't just about this forum either but the wider society.

Also what is a homosexual or heterosexual for a transwoman say pre-transition but very sure of her gender identity. When do her relationships switch from being say hetero to homo? Thus the nature of gender is core to sexual relationships but sexual relationships that are not the norm. What other sexual relationships are not the norm? Same sex relationships are considered not to be the norm.

Well Right back at you, I'm a Bi-Sexual, so if I'm with a man I'm transgendered and when I'm with a woman I'm not, and who gets to decide? You? Are you qualified to make those decision?

The argument being put forward is not that LGB people have commonalities with Trangendered people, but rather that they are the same. The basis of the argument is that both "groups" of people cross gender boundaries. But so does every nearly everybody person. Yes having sex with a man is something that typically a woman does, but so is raising the kids, and facials and having long hair. Why pick sex and not some other other activity? Why am I supposedly transgendered but not someone that pains their nails? Or maybe they are, if so the question has to be asked, just who isn't Transgendered?

Everyone one being transgendered doesn't make sense though as there is clearly a group of people that identify with the idea of their Gender not being fixed (and I think it's safe to say most people do feel gender is fixed, for them anyway).

Tolerance Vs acceptance: For me Sex and Sexuality is in no way related to gender. So I'm never going to agree with a link on the grounds being put forward here. I’ll hold my hand up and say, “yes I’m limited, I see gender as fixed”. That, however, doesn’t mean that I can’t accept someone who’s see things differently, or that I think they are wrong, I see it as a perfectly valid view to have of oneself. In the same way that I view “Sexual Preference” as being fluid, I fully accept those that Identify with it being fixed in one direction. That’s the crux of acceptance. It’s the ability to say “I’ve a different view point but your views are ok also”. Tolerance is where someone says “I’ve a different view point, its right, you’re wrong, that’s it, but I’m not going to make an issue about it, or do anything against you”.

Anyway, Welcome to the forum. This is the first time you’ve come up on my radar, so you may have already posting without me noticing.

Hypatia

Some definitions to maybe clear up confusion for those not in
the LGBT community and a bit of history for LGBT people of
where the term transgender comes from. I do find it a bit
weird that they use transgender when it was coined by someone
who wanted all lesbians and gay men cured of there
homosexuality, which is actually impossible.

---

HOMOSEXUAL: A person who is sexually attracted to and has sex
with people who are the same sex as themselves.

BISEXUAL: A person is sexually attracted to both men and women
and has sex with both men and women.

LESBIAN: A woman who is attracted only to women and has sex
only with other women.

GAY MAN: A man who is attracted only to men and has sex only
with other men.


TRANSGENDERED,(TG): A term coined by Charles 'Virginia'
Prince, a married transvestite/crossdresser and publisher
of the magazine 'Transvestia'. Although a transvestite
who lived as a woman full time with his wife he did not
wish to be connected in any way with transsexual verbiage
and did not understand their need to correct a medical
anomaly. He coined the term transgender as a masking term
for the fetish known as transvestitism.
Transgender has become an umbrella label for many sexual
variants and/or fetishists such as people who like to be
forcibly feminised by a dominant mistress, transvestites,
she-males, gay cross-dressers, drag-queens, etc.
Some transgenderists claim they are really transsexual,
but cannot have surgery due to ill health. Transsexual
people with health issues such as heart problems, cancer,
etc. have had sex reasignment surgery, so this is merely
a decption by transvestites to attempt to look better
in the publics eye, when they are really concealing there
fetish. Many transsexual people oppose the term transgender
being linked to them, particulary people who have had
sex reasignment surgery and left transsexualism in there
past and adjusted their lives accordingly.


TRANSSEXUAL, (TS): A person with a very strong and
persistent need/desire to anatomically undergo sex
reassignment surgery, so as to meld their body with
their accepted inborn mental gender and eliminate
the incongruity. Some claiming to be transsexual
are obviously not, as reflected in the fluid statistics
that estimate that only ten persons in one hundred
claiming to be transsexual may be transsexual and of
those approximately one in ten have sex reassignment.
Only the people who have surgery and go on to adapt
and lead a normal life, were transsexual in the first
place. A transsexual person intends to undergo sex
reasignment surgery, no matter the consequences.

---

TG and TS definitions have been expended by some as in
below.

TRANSGENDERED,(TG): A term coined by Charles 'Virginia'
Prince, a married transvestite/crossdresser and publisher
of the magazine 'Transvestia'. Although a transvestite
who lived as a woman full time with his wife he did not
wish to be connected in any way with transsexual verbiage
and did not understand their need to correct a medical
anomaly. He coined the term transgender as a masking term
for the fetish known as transvestitism. VIrginia
Prince opposed the declassification of homosexuality
in 1973/74. Prince was also very derogatory to Lesbians,
believing that Lesbians should all get married.
Transgender has become an umbrella label for many sexual
variants and/or fetishists such as people who like to be
forcibly feminised by a dominant mistress, transvestites,
she-males, gay cross-dressers, drag-queens, etc.
Some transgenderists claim they are really transsexual,
but cannot have surgery due to ill health. Transsexual
people with health issues such as heart problems, cancer,
etc. have had sex reasignment surgery, so this is merely
a decption by transvestites to attempt to look better
in the publics eye, when they are really concealing there
fetish. Many transsexual people oppose the term transgender
being linked to them, particulary people who have had
sex reasignment surgery and left transsexualism in there
past and adjusted their lives accordingly.
Prince was a firm supporter of making transsexualism a mental
disorder in 1979/80, although was very dissappointed that
the classification allowed transseuxal people to have surgery.
Prince vehemently opposed transsexual people having surgery,
considering all transsexual people who had sex resignment
surgery to be deluded.

TRANSSEXUAL, (TS): A person with a very strong and persistent
desire to anatomically undergo sex reassignment surgery so as to
meld their body with their accepted inborn mental sexual identity
and eliminate the incongruity, between there mental and physical
sex. Some claiming to be transsexual are obviously not if they do
not intend to undergo sex reasignment surgery. LOts of Female to
Male transgenderists use lack of suitable genital operation as
an excuse, not to have surgery. Phalloplasty is roughly
analogenous to sex reasignment surgery was for male to female
transsexual in the 1970's. Female to Male people can opt for
Metioaplpasty which gives relatively realistic organs.
Phalloplasty is available for female to male transsexuals.The
main problem that male to female transsexual people face is cost,
however in countries like Ireland that is covered by the goverment.
If a person refuses to undergo sex reasignment surgery they are
not transsexual. A cosmetic sex reasignment surgery procedure is
available for those with extremely bad health. Those who do not
intend to undergo sex reasignment surgery are transvestite. A
very large proportion of transsexual people, oppose vehmently
any connection between themselves and transvestites.

Hypatia

Have just read all the posts.

I see someone stating that all lesbians and gay men engage in transgender behaviour, whatever that is, in that context. They do not. That is a homophobic anti reality of lives of gay / lesbian people stance.

Gay men and lesbians are making love to there partner. It is nothing whatsoever to do with the concepts of transgenderism as discussed on this forum.

Also by and far a majority of transvestites want absolutely, nothing to do with the LGB community, transsexual people or anyone else. Only some tranvestites engage with the LGB community. Transvestites by far outnumber transseuxal people, by at least an order of magnitude. If they all went to LGB events, they would be primarily transvestite events.

The majority of transsexual people by far, move on after sex reasignment surgery and get on with there lives. It would be very rare to see a heterosexual women who went through a transsexual experience in a gay bar, five to ten years after surgery.

Most transsexual people you will see in a gay bar, are those during the period of transition from one sex to another. Usually that period of time is anywhere from 1 to 5 years, but most move on and are never seen again near the LGB community.

Gay female to male transsexuals and lesbian male to female transsexuals, quite a few of them stay associated with the LGB community, but also quite a few move on and interact wiht the LGB community around the edges of that community.

There is some who stay in LGB community all there lives. That is there choice. They should not force it upon others or refer to people as homophobic, who clearly are not.