"Scumbag" is a label, and it makes what it tags so.

lecomte

I find it hard to stomach the gross generalisations that are constantly being laid at the door of people from certain areas in Limerick.

To say "I love Limerick but I hate the scum-bags" is to create antagonism and shows an unwillingness to actually engage with the people on your streets just because they dress differently or swear more than you. Very quickly, people become as they are perceived. No-one is born a scumbag, and whatever is learned, can be un-learned.

So I request that the next time you look at a group of young, disaffected, pissed off young-fellas, instead of thinking "scumbags" immediately, you might ask yourself why are they so angry and what are you doing about it? To my mind, it is simply not good enough to whinge about certain people giving our city a bad name and then do nothing but name-call and add to all the ugliness by doing so. Social inequality and a lack of communication and no real attempt at understanding the space other human beings are standing in is what is at the source. As Ghandi said, "You must be the change you want to see in the world." Do you really want to see world where people contunually slur what they don't really know?

Thank you for your time.

Karmafaerie

lecomte wrote:

I find it hard to stomach the gross generalisations that are constantly being laid at the door of people from certain areas in Limerick.

To say "I love Limerick but I hate the scum-bags" is to create antagonism and shows an unwillingness to actually engage with the people on your streets just because they dress differently or swear more than you. Very quickly, people become as they are perceived. No-one is born a scumbag, and whatever is learned, can be un-learned.

So I request that the next time you look at a group of young, disaffected, pissed off young-fellas, instead of thinking "scumbags" immediately, you might ask yourself why are they so angry and what are you doing about it? To my mind, it is simply not good enough to whinge about certain people giving our city a bad name and then do nothing but name-call and add to all the ugliness by doing so. Social inequality and a lack of communication and no real attempt at understanding the space other human beings are standing in is what is at the source. As Ghandi said, "You must be the change you want to see in the world." Do you really want to see world where people contunually slur what they don't really know?

Thank you for your time.

Unfortunately that's not exactly true.
Most people here, or in Limerick in general will agree that the vast majority of people in these areas are fine normal people, and that they are not scumbags.
But to say that it's all an enforced perception is well off.
There are people who live in these areas, who have no respect for their own houses, never mind their neighbours.
I know of families who've ripped up the stairs and floor boards in their houses, to burn as fire wood.
They know that if they destroy the house, the council will just pay for it to be fixed, or move them to a new house.

These people just don't respect their own houses, so as I said go around destroying other peoples.
The reason that this started, was simply poor planning in the 60's 70's but the answer is to rectify that, in a sustainable way for the long term, not just to say "ahh poor soul he's from a disadvantaged area, let him off"!

In the short term some of the actual scumbags have to be thought about consequences, and if their parents don't teach them, then it's the states job.
If they destroy the house the council gave to them, tell em tough.
You're not getting a new one!
As soon as they learn that they can't just get away with things like that, it'll bleed over into other aspects of life.

If you were raised to think that you could abuse something or someone, and get away with it, then chances are, you'd grow up to not respect other people or their properties.

That is what needs to be changed, and untill it is, a tiny minority, will always ruin things for the rest.
Cause they can get away with it, and it's easier than working hard.

Orange69

lecomte wrote:

I find it hard to stomach the gross generalisations that are constantly being laid at the door of people from certain areas in Limerick.

To say "I love Limerick but I hate the scum-bags" is to create antagonism and shows an unwillingness to actually engage with the people on your streets just because they dress differently or swear more than you. Very quickly, people become as they are perceived. No-one is born a scumbag, and whatever is learned, can be un-learned.

So I request that the next time you look at a group of young, disaffected, pissed off young-fellas, instead of thinking "scumbags" immediately, you might ask yourself why are they so angry and what are you doing about it? To my mind, it is simply not good enough to whinge about certain people giving our city a bad name and then do nothing but name-call and add to all the ugliness by doing so. Social inequality and a lack of communication and no real attempt at understanding the space other human beings are standing in is what is at the source. As Ghandi said, "You must be the change you want to see in the world." Do you really want to see world where people contunually slur what they don't really know?

Thank you for your time.

If you had ever had to deal with a gang of scumbags or the results of their actions you would have a very different opinion..

They are a parasite on society..

EDIT: I dont see why this is in the Limerick forum, its a nationwide issue..

Amazotheamazing

But what makes someone become a scumbag?

krudler

big gold chains with an uzi medallion on the end,highly popular on da streetz of limerick these days,and a peak cap with a ratty little fringe sticking out from underneath it placed so high on the head it would make members of east 17 cringe

lecomte

"big gold chains with an uzi medallion on the end,highly popular on da streetz of limerick these days,and a peak cap with a ratty little fringe sticking out from underneath it placed so high on the head it would make members of east 17 cringe"

This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. Fashion makes people dirt?
Give me a break. If you're going to go down that road I could easily point to your lack of punctuation etc. and adjudge you to be an idiot, or lazy, as that is how you appear in this medium. I am sure you would be the first to agree that this is not the case. Why so quick to judge on the basis of appearance. Those hideously dressed teenagers are just kids. Kids are sensitive. They learn by example. You are the example.

lecomte

Orange69 wrote:

If you had ever had to deal with a gang of scumbags or the results of their actions you would have a very different opinion..

They are a parasite on society..

EDIT: I dont see why this is in the Limerick forum, its a nationwide issue..

Who's "they"? And are "they" some kind of collective parasite or what? I promise you that I speak from a position of experience when I address this problem and I am not an outsider looking in. I agree that it's a nation wide issue. Feel free to copy and paste. I am starting on my doorstep, that's all.

So, to summarise, you're saying that if one has had a bad experience with a group of people then all of those people who look the same are the same?

lecomte

Karmafaerie wrote:

Unfortunately that's not exactly true.
Most people here, or in Limerick in general will agree that the vast majority of people in these areas are fine normal people, and that they are not scumbags.
But to say that it's all an enforced perception is well off.
There are people who live in these areas, who have no respect for their own houses, never mind their neighbours.
I know of families who've ripped up the stairs and floor boards in their houses, to burn as fire wood.
They know that if they destroy the house, the council will just pay for it to be fixed, or move them to a new house.

These people just don't respect their own houses, so as I said go around destroying other peoples.
The reason that this started, was simply poor planning in the 60's 70's but the answer is to rectify that, in a sustainable way for the long term, not just to say "ahh poor soul he's from a disadvantaged area, let him off"!

In the short term some of the actual scumbags have to be thought about consequences, and if their parents don't teach them, then it's the states job.
If they destroy the house the council gave to them, tell em tough.
You're not getting a new one!
As soon as they learn that they can't just get away with things like that, it'll bleed over into other aspects of life.

If you were raised to think that you could abuse something or someone, and get away with it, then chances are, you'd grow up to not respect other people or their properties.

That is what needs to be changed, and untill it is, a tiny minority, will always ruin things for the rest.
Cause they can get away with it, and it's easier than working hard.

Where did I say it was all an enforced perception?

And I do not believe in the term "disadvantaged" area. Disadvantaged areas don't have running water or libraries. We are in agreement, I believe, if you take the time to read what I wrote again, that there is an element giving decent people a bad name. That bad name is "scum-bag" and it is used far too liberally in this city, serving to create more and more of the subject it disparages.

Call a man a name enough times, and he'll answer to it.

I simply made the request not to apply the word "scum-bag" to people. It has become a label. End of story.

Fremen

I used to think the same way some of the previous posters in this thread seem to, until I took a part-time job working in a shop on Thomas St. (Inner city, lots of junkies/square meter for those not familiar with dublin)

You fairly quickly come to realise that most of the people you deal with are pretty ok, and a lot more like you than you thought. Trouble is, there are some scumbags, by which I mean the anti-social little bastards who give everyone in the area a bad name.

There's no way to tell at a glance whether, say, a kid standing outside your shop is one of these scumbags, and so people just lump them all together.

Parsley

I hate scumbags cos they've stolen two of my phones and €70. I don't care what made them do it, they're ****s.

lecomte

You hate criminals.

Not people who look like to you like criminals. Make the distinction, or lose more phones.

Your choice.

Orange69

Man give us a break with the pc ****e...

If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

Disadvantaged area my hole... I grew up in an area with no library, swimming pool etc and i went on to do a PhD.. so dont give me that crap..

Personally i blame the parents.. People should have to apply for a license to have kids..

Amazotheamazing

Orange69 wrote:

If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

I think Lecomte's point is not everyone who looks like a "scumbag" acts like one.

lecomte

Orange69 wrote:

Man give us a break with the pc ****e...

If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

Disadvantaged area my hole... I grew up in an area with no library, swimming pool etc and i went on to do a PhD.. so dont give me that crap..

Personally i blame the parents.. People should have to apply for a license to have kids..

What? PC crap? Would you do me a favour and actually read what is written rather than what you expect to see in order for you to get on your box about your rags to riches doctorate. I'm sure your hole is a grossly disadvantaged area, regardless, I actually stated that I did not agree with that term myself.

You've got an axe to grind, and you failed the examine the target before you spoke, and so, missed the target.

Personally, you blame the parents, personally, I blame myself, because I can only be accountable for myself, not one other person can I ever be in control of, and what is wrong in the world is what is wrong in me. That's my philosophy. Declaring a person's opinion to be PC crap and then to go on and say if it looks like something then there's a good chance it is that thing is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry dressed up to look like your calling a cigar a cigar. You're not. You're calling kids scum.

I'm happy to have a discussion where there is a difference of opinion. I am not happy to have a discussion wherein the opinion of the other is not really considered.

Karmafaerie

lecomte wrote:

Where did I say it was all an enforced perception?

And I do not believe in the term "disadvantaged" area. Disadvantaged areas don't have running water or libraries. We are in agreement, I believe, if you take the time to read what I wrote again, that there is an element giving decent people a bad name. That bad name is "scum-bag" and it is used far too liberally in this city, serving to create more and more of the subject it disparages.

Call a man a name enough times, and he'll answer to it.

I simply made the request not to apply the word "scum-bag" to people. It has become a label. End of story.

What I was referring to with my point on enforced perception is what you repeated again in you second last line above.

lecomte wrote:

Call a man a name enough times, and he'll answer to it.

That is a load of crap.
Every person on the planet could call me a scumbag, and it wouldn't make me go out and rob old ladies, or break into shops.

How about you?
I'm guessing that you wouldn't consider yourself to be one.
If enough people call you one, would you shoot, or stab somebody?

(I'm not saying that every one from these areas does do this, just to be clear!;) )

My point about disadvantaged areas is that it is not an excuse, but to say that somewhere like Moyross has the same amenities as Castletroy for instance is very naive.

I was born in Moyross, and although my parents moved in order to try and give my siblings and me a better life, I spent most of my youth hanging out with friends in St Mary's Park.
There is nothing to do there, but play in one or two empty fields.
Southill has the slight exception of having a swimming pool!

It's as I've said here before, if you give young children nothing to do but throw stones at cars, they'll throw stones at cars!

These places need to give the kids something to do besides cause trouble.

I can understand where you're coming from.
Nearly all people from these areas, are far from scumbags.
I have plenty of friends who a lot of people would mistakenly cross the road rather than passing. But that's life, because life is all about perception.

If people see a load of kids wearing black, and face paint, they're going to try and label them.
They're going to assume that they're into death metal, and sacrificing cats!:p

It doesn't mean it's true, but that's what's been happening for Milena!
It's life!!!

Again, I can understand what you're saying, and people do over react when seeing somebody who thinks that "Nike" is a way of life, but I think that if you seriously believe that simply not assuming the worst will solve the problem, you need to get out more.
All that that would mean is that the real scum would find it that much easier to f**k people over, and the honest people who aren't to blame, would be painted with the same brush.

If peoples reactions bother you, then it's either something you accept, or you change.

If I wear a Liverpool jersey, it's fair to assume that I support Liverpool.
Even Gandhi would agree with that!:D

talkingclock

lecomte wrote:

This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. Fashion makes people dirt?

If a group of people decide to dress in a more or less unique way to differ from the rest of the society then i assume their it is their intention to use this dress as an uniform. So if sumbags decide to wear say the white nike track siute then it's their uniform. Every sensual kid should know that wearing scumbag-uniform will make them look like a scumbag and recognized as a scumbag.

Sensual kids/youngsters dress-up different.

How do see the scumbags themself? How do they call themself? Sensual kids?

I got bullied so many times by those scum on the street, i now just think to drown one of them is doing more to the society then a group of them would achieve in their whole life. Maybe i'm a bitter old talkingclock...

krudler

oh get off your high horse lecomte you pretentious twat,are there scumbags in limerick city?yes there are ,hundreds of them in fact.
fact is i worked in a shop in limerick for 5 years which is one of the main stores in the city,and ive literally dealt with thousands of scumbags,we used to catch teenagers stealing every saturday and guess what,the majority of them were tracksuit wearing little wannabe gangsters,gold chains,peak caps the works, now is the poor little guy from a broken disadvantaged area or is he just a thieving ****? its not like they dont right from wrong they just like stealing stuff

krudler

lecomte wrote:

I simply made the request not to apply the word "scum-bag" to people. It has become a label. End of story.

oh we're sorry to offend your sensitive little ears

monkeyfudge

It certainly was discouraging to see pretty much every political party calling for more Garda in the run up to the general election, but none of them seemed to be trying to look at the roots of anti-social behavior.

I was born, raised and still live and work in an area that is known to be bad in Dublin... I had the very same amenities, schools and opportunities available to me that everyone else in the community had and probably a lot less than what is available today... But I have never verbally and physically abused people on the streets or on the bus so why should I respect and understand people who do? They're simply in the wrong and need to be stood up to and it needs to be known to them that what they're doing is unacceptable in society.

I'm not one to judge a person by the clothes they wear, but the thugs do all tend to dress in the same way so it's only a natural response for you to be on guard when you come across someone dressed like that... but that's only your first impression of a person and it really shouldn't be what forms your total opinion of them.

ninty9er

There are scumbags from all areas of Limerick; including Monaleen, NCR, SCR, Moyross, Southill, St. Mary's Park and everywhere between. Their actions make them scumbags, not how they dress, but most of them choose to dress the same....the chav adoption of Burbery made the company withdraw certain items of clothing from its line-up even!! If it's in a group and standing outside HMV looking menacing it's a scumbag....why because intimidation is an act and it's attirbutable to scumbags!! Would you rather we call them "ill dressed, intimidating, sometimes unlawful, loitering, obnoxious people" - Scumbag is just easier. deal with it

Lemonte...you're either extremely naive or just trolling to suggest that a child in Monaleen has more facilities available to them than kids in Moyross or O'Malley park where resources are being pured by the millions and community workers are fighting with local people to BE ALLOWED do stuf to occupy kids' time. It's kids in the middle and upper income areas that are being ignored in resourcing, but thankfully that is changing

Cop on!!

ninty9er

monkeyfudge wrote:

It certainly was discouraging to see pretty much every political party calling for more Garda in the run up to the general election, but none of them seemed to be trying to look at the roots of anti-social behavior.

I think part of the problem here is that because of restrictive Garda numbers, some people think they can get away with doing x or y, because there won't be enough Gardaí to stop or catch them.

If there was a Garda deterrent many of these people would cop on

The following analagy still applies with the use of the word many above:
"3 out of 4 people prefer Tayto, but theres always 1"

Karmafaerie

ninty9er wrote:

Lemonte...you're either extremely naive or just trolling to suggest that a child in Monaleen has more facilities available to them than kids in Moyross or O'Malley park where resources are being pured by the millions and community workers are fighting with local people to BE ALLOWED do stuf to occupy kids' time. It's kids in the middle and upper income areas that are being ignored in resourcing, but thankfully that is changing

Cop on!!

Lemonte didn't suggest that, I did.
And you're completely wrong.

It's not just about throwing facilities at the already disenfranchised.

There are no sports grounds, parks, sports facilities etc in any of these areas.
There is literaly nothing for the children to do, but cause trouble.
Until a couple of years ago, there were all but no shops in Moyross FFS!

I've lost track about the amount of times where people come on here, and other similar places, and complain about the prevalence of scumbags in town.
Limerick does have a more visible element of youths in town, as a lot of these kids have had to walk the whole way in if they want to buy a packet of chewing gum!!!

The long term answer is to service all of these "disadvantaged"(:rolleyes: ) areas with a serviceable infrastructure, and for the government/councils to stop implying by inaction, that their actions have no consequences!

95% of the kids from theses areas are bored, and something should be done to solve this.
The other 5% are scum, and should be dealt with properly, and not by the usual Irish, slap on the wrist, legal system!

krudler

Karmafaerie wrote:

Lemonte didn't suggest that, I did.
And you're completely wrong.

It's not just about throwing facilities at the already disenfranchised.

There are no sports grounds, parks, sports facilities etc in any of these areas.
There is literaly nothing for the children to do, but cause trouble.
Until a couple of years ago, there were all but no shops in Moyross FFS!

thats because when the do get facilities like this theyre vandalised or used to hang around and get drunk/high near,i grew up in st marys park as some of family are from there (long moved out now) and im not a scumbag,ive seen some awful **** over the years and vandalising your own neighbourhood is one of them

Karmafaerie

krudler wrote:

thats because when the do get facilities like this theyre vandalised or used to hang around and get drunk/high near,i grew up in st marys park as some of family are from there (long moved out now) and im not a scumbag,ive seen some awful **** over the years and vandalising your own neighbourhood is one of them

Hence the second part of what I said about how if they **** up, they should be made pay, not be slapped on the wrist!

I know of a guy who has been arrested seven times, and never once charged!
The guy still has a clean criminal record, while if he was living in another country, he'd have probably done a few years at this stage!!!

What kind of example is that?!
Get arrested, spend a night in jail, go home!

Of course these scumbags think that they can get away with anything!:mad:

Rubberbandits

Amazotheamazing wrote:

But what makes someone become a scumbag?

Place a child in an agressive and hostile environment (that environment doesn't have to be a council estate, it could also mean growing up with an abusive parent/sibling regardless of the neighbourhood) and as an adult that person will percieve the world to be an agressive and hostile place. They will thus react to most situations in an agressive and hostile fashion as a default behavior and defense mechanism.
Its called "Emotional Hi-jacking" a term coined by a contemporary psychologist by the name of Paul Eckmann, his theories expand on the earlier work of Frued.

Lets not forget about Karl Marx and his social class the "Lumpenproletariat" either.

billy the squid

krudler wrote:

oh get off your high horse lecomte you pretentious twat,are there scumbags in limerick city?yes there are ,hundreds of them in fact.
fact is i worked in a shop in limerick for 5 years which is one of the main stores in the city,and ive literally dealt with thousands of scumbags,we used to catch teenagers stealing every saturday and guess what,the majority of them were tracksuit wearing little wannabe gangsters,gold chains,peak caps the works, now is the poor little guy from a broken disadvantaged area or is he just a thieving ****? its not like they dont right from wrong they just like stealing stuff

Krudler banned for 1 week for abuse.

lecomte

talkingclock wrote:

If a group of people decide to dress in a more or less unique way to differ from the rest of the society then i assume their it is their intention to use this dress as an uniform. So if sumbags decide to wear say the white nike track siute then it's their uniform. Every sensual kid should know that wearing scumbag-uniform will make them look like a scumbag and recognized as a scumbag.

Sensual kids/youngsters dress-up different.

How do see the scumbags themself? How do they call themself? Sensual kids?

I got bullied so many times by those scum on the street, i now just think to drown one of them is doing more to the society then a group of them would achieve in their whole life. Maybe i'm a bitter old talkingclock...

But this group of people we are talking about do not dress in a different way from their society. When they come into town, they stand out, but ninety per cent of their social environment is geared toward their gear. If you grow up in an area where everybody wears blue, and you decide that you're going to wear green, you'll know about if fair sharpish.

A uniform is not about standing out. Just the opposite, in fact.

If Patrick Kavanagh thought they way you did, he wouldn't taken that walk out of Monaghan and made the stand that he stood in Dublin.

I don't think the word "sensual" means what you think it means.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last point, although it does perfectly illuminate the vicious cycle that nasty and anti-social behaviour perpetuates.

Now the bullied has become the bully. And what you're doing is bullying, make no bones about it, it's just more subtle.

lecomte

krudler wrote:

oh get off your high horse lecomte you pretentious twat,are there scumbags in limerick city?yes there are ,hundreds of them in fact.
fact is i worked in a shop in limerick for 5 years which is one of the main stores in the city,and ive literally dealt with thousands of scumbags,we used to catch teenagers stealing every saturday and guess what,the majority of them were tracksuit wearing little wannabe gangsters,gold chains,peak caps the works, now is the poor little guy from a broken disadvantaged area or is he just a thieving ****? its not like they dont right from wrong they just like
stealing stuff

To be honest, my definition of a scum-bag is someone who takes one look, makes a snap-judgement, and starts slinging dirt. Your complete lack of decorum here serves to illustrate my point that not enough thinking goes into these matters, and far too much spontaneous jaw-flapping does.

lecomte

monkeyfudge wrote:

It certainly was discouraging to see pretty much every political party calling for more Garda in the run up to the general election, but none of them seemed to be trying to look at the roots of anti-social behavior.

I was born, raised and still live and work in an area that is known to be bad in Dublin... I had the very same amenities, schools and opportunities available to me that everyone else in the community had and probably a lot less than what is available today... But I have never verbally and physically abused people on the streets or on the bus so why should I respect and understand people who do? They're simply in the wrong and need to be stood up to and it needs to be known to them that what they're doing is unacceptable in society.

I'm not one to judge a person by the clothes they wear, but the thugs do all tend to dress in the same way so it's only a natural response for you to be on guard when you come across someone dressed like that... but that's only your first impression of a person and it really shouldn't be what forms your total opinion of them.

That's a balanced enough argument, I think. The basic answer to your question about the why of respecting and trying to understand others, to me, is simply this: Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. Put yourself in those nasty white runners and see how it feels to be met with suspicion and mistrust with every gold-painted lead-jingling step you take and very quickly you will close your fist instead of opening your hand.

lecomte

krudler wrote:

oh we're sorry to offend your sensitive little ears

We use our ears to hear. Rather happily, I think, the sound of your voice escapes mine.

Really, if you're not happy with my style, create a thread entitled "pretentious do-gooders" or something and I will take five of my precious minutes to dismantle your arguments there.

I think it's only fair that you stick to the point of threads created.

There are only two answers to a request. My request is not to label people with the tag "scum-bag" as I believe it serves to completely impersonalise a massive problem in our city and makes it very, very easy for those outside of the likes of Moyross etc. to dismiss anti-social behaviour without attempting to find a solution.

It's indicitave of the attitude that continues to allow Ireland slide into a grime-filled gutter with no view of the stars.

lecomte

ninty9er wrote:

There are scumbags from all areas of Limerick; including Monaleen, NCR, SCR, Moyross, Southill, St. Mary's Park and everywhere between. Their actions make them scumbags, not how they dress, but most of them choose to dress the same....the chav adoption of Burbery made the company withdraw certain items of clothing from its line-up even!! If it's in a group and standing outside HMV looking menacing it's a scumbag....why because intimidation is an act and it's attirbutable to scumbags!! Would you rather we call them "ill dressed, intimidating, sometimes unlawful, loitering, obnoxious people" - Scumbag is just easier. deal with it

Lemonte...you're either extremely naive or just trolling to suggest that a child in Monaleen has more facilities available to them than kids in Moyross or O'Malley park where resources are being pured by the millions and community workers are fighting with local people to BE ALLOWED do stuf to occupy kids' time. It's kids in the middle and upper income areas that are being ignored in resourcing, but thankfully that is changing

Cop on!!

Please do a little more research before making a rebuttal. It will make your points more credible.

I believe "naive" is a word people give to a certain kind of courage in order to discredit it, that it might not one day come to be expected of them.

To follow your point farther down the road you have set out on, if they're african and they're playing basket-ball and looking angry then it's easier to call them "****". It's easier isn't it? Just deal with it.

You even use the pronoun "it" when referring to actual people. Are you not aware of the power of language or what?

Now, even though I didn't actually make the point you attributed to me, a kid in Monaleen and Moyross has about the same level of facilities available to them, that's true, but a kid in Monaleen can go out and use those facilities without having to worry about paying protection money in order to get there.

You are right when you say it is actions that make peole "scum-bags", not their appearances. Entirely my point. Entirely the basis of my request.

talkingclock

lecomte wrote:

You even use the pronoun "it" when referring to actual people. Are you not aware of the power of language or what?

Good lord! You are doing this on purpose, don't you?! :mad:

lecomte

talkingclock wrote:

Good lord! You are doing this on purpose, don't you?! :mad:

Sorry, didn't realise English wasn't your first language until now. You're level is quite high. Where are you from?

And no, I am not doing anything on purpose, I simply believe that language is extraordinarily powerful and the depersonalising people by referring to a person as "it" makes it easy to dismiss them without actually considering them as human beings with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers just like you.

P.

Karmafaerie

lecomte wrote:

Sorry, didn't realise English wasn't your first language until now. You're level is quite high. Where are you from?

And no, I am not doing anything on purpose, I simply believe that language is extraordinarily powerful and the depersonalising people by referring to a person as "it" makes it easy to dismiss them without actually considering them as human beings with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers just like you.

P.

No need to get personal.
As I'm sure you saw with Krudler, we try to be civil here.

BTW, you are still yet to answer any of the points I put towards you.

sioda

This person is obviously a troll with a large chip on their shoulder lets leave this thread die

billy the squid

lecomte wrote:

Sorry, didn't realise English wasn't your first language until now. You're level is quite high. Where are you from?

And no, I am not doing anything on purpose, I simply believe that language is extraordinarily powerful and the depersonalising people by referring to a person as "it" makes it easy to dismiss them without actually considering them as human beings with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers just like you.

P.

Leconte, such personal swipes are not tolerated here,, as you are new here I will give you the benefit of the doubt and a second chance.

please take time out to read the charter sticky at the top of the forum.

There will be no more warnings. hotheadedness and abuse from anyone arising out of this thread will result in slappings (proverbial ones)

cooperguy

lecomte wrote:

I believe "naive" is a word people give to a certain kind of courage in order to discredit it, that it might not one day come to be expected of them.

To follow your point farther down the road you have set out on, if they're african and they're playing basket-ball and looking angry then it's easier to call them "n***ers". It's easier isn't it? Just deal with it.

No niave is a word used to describe a person or argument that takes an extemely simplistic, idealistic view of a situation and while your post has some validity niave is definatly a term that applies. Everybody has a certain amount of prejudice and a certain amount of it is a good thing. It is needed to ensure that you avoid dangerous situations. If you see somebody who looks like a scumbag then you have to be wary or you risk getting hurt/loosing money. And a one word definition of that person is the easiest way of describing them.

Which brings me on to my next point. No you would not use the word n***ers. If you simply want a quick label to describe the black person without goin over and askin the name then they are "Black" (Simple, effective and perfectly acceptable) If by looking angry you are trying to say they look a little like a scumbag then you can call them a scumbag. You dont have to be white to be a scumbag.

lecomte

billy the squid wrote:

Leconte, such personal swipes are not tolerated here,, as you are new here I will give you the benefit of the doubt and a second chance.

please take time out to read the charter sticky at the top of the forum.

There will be no more warnings. hotheadedness and abuse from anyone arising out of this thread will result in slappings (proverbial ones)

I really appreciate that and have to say that you have completely misunderstood my intention.

I teach English and genuinely believe the chap in question is a foreign national and intended to compliment him on his level of English. I'd wager he is.

I was banging on about pronouns before and when I realised that the guy didn't have English as his first language, I put the quote that was misinterpreted by many, forward by way of apology.

I think there is a little hot-headedness with regard to expecting abuse from people whose opinions differ from others here, and I request that you read back over the threads and see that I was sincere, and had no desire to offend the person in question. If indeed the person (forgotten the name) is not from another country, I am sorry for the offence caused, it was totally unintentional.

lecomte

cooperguy wrote:

No niave is a word used to describe a person or argument that takes an extemely simplistic, idealistic view of a situation and while your post has some validity niave is definatly a term that applies. Everybody has a certain amount of prejudice and a certain amount of it is a good thing. It is needed to ensure that you avoid dangerous situations. If you see somebody who looks like a scumbag then you have to be wary or you risk getting hurt/loosing money. And a one word definition of that person is the easiest way of describing them.

Which brings me on to my next point. No you would not use the word n***ers. If you simply want a quick label to describe the black person without goin over and askin the name then they are "Black" (Simple, effective and perfectly acceptable) If by looking angry you are trying to say they look a little like a scumbag then you can call them a scumbag. You dont have to be white to be a scumbag.

I did not definitively say what the word "naive" meant, what I stated was my belief about how people use the word. I stand by that thought. I really am experiencing that people here are not thinking about what they are replying to before they reply. What's the point in having a dialogue if you're not going to take the time to consider what the other party says?

So many who fought so hard and fight so hard today for the simplistic ideals of goodness, compassion and fairness are labelled naive and unrealistic, I believe, because others don't want to subscribe to that as it is just too challenging.

Now, I don't know if you've ever spent time in the states or not, but I promise you, the culture there will allow a person walking by a group of young, angry black people and they will be called "n*****" and it is accepted. The one-word definition that we use for people on the margins of our society may be a different one, but I promise you, it has the same effect. To know that the person looking at you thinks ill of you because of the way you dress and where you're from and applies a label to you as a result will generate that anger you see about them, so you call them "scum-bag" and the cycle circles all the more viciously.

Now, that's just what I believe. It's my truth, it is what is so for me, and I think it's right. You may not. Entirely up to you. I don't think the argument I am making is weak, however, and there is a fair bit of research and study done in this vein to back up my contention.

lecomte

sioda wrote:

This person is obviously a troll with a large chip on their shoulder lets leave this thread die

If you think I am a troll for a perceived slight at someone, what makes you less of a troll for having a go at me?

Do you have anything to say on the subject of the thread?

lecomte

Karmafaerie wrote:

What I was referring to with my point on enforced perception is what you repeated again in you second last line above.



That is a load of crap.
Every person on the planet could call me a scumbag, and it wouldn't make me go out and rob old ladies, or break into shops.

I think it would make you very angry at the other people on the planet, and you would find a way to lash out, maybe robbing old ladies, but something nasty.

How about you?
I'm guessing that you wouldn't consider yourself to be one.
If enough people call you one, would you shoot, or stab somebody?

I would ritually humiliate them with my superior intellect and razor-sharp wit. Different tool-box, ugly, negative outcome all the same.

(I'm not saying that every one from these areas does do this, just to be clear!;) )

My point about disadvantaged areas is that it is not an excuse, but to say that somewhere like Moyross has the same amenities as Castletroy for instance is very naive.

I just said that I didn't consider areas that have libraries, running water, community centres etc. to be "disadvantaged".

I was born in Moyross, and although my parents moved in order to try and give my siblings and me a better life, I spent most of my youth hanging out with friends in St Mary's Park.
There is nothing to do there, but play in one or two empty fields.
Southill has the slight exception of having a swimming pool!

There are kick-boxing clubs, tennis camps in the summer, soccer clubs, quite a few literacy and art programmes, and a lot of volunteer work undertaken by the church.

It's as I've said here before, if you give young children nothing to do but throw stones at cars, they'll throw stones at cars!

Yup. And if you call them scum-bags, they'll throw stones at you.

These places need to give the kids something to do besides cause trouble.

I agree.

I can understand where you're coming from.
Nearly all people from these areas, are far from scumbags.
I have plenty of friends who a lot of people would mistakenly cross the road rather than passing. But that's life, because life is all about perception.

If people see a load of kids wearing black, and face paint, they're going to try and label them.
They're going to assume that they're into death metal, and sacrificing cats!:p

It doesn't mean it's true, but that's what's been happening for Milena!
It's life!!!

Again, I can understand what you're saying, and people do over react when seeing somebody who thinks that "Nike" is a way of life, but I think that if you seriously believe that simply not assuming the worst will solve the problem, you need to get out more.
All that that would mean is that the real scum would find it that much easier to f**k people over, and the honest people who aren't to blame, would be painted with the same brush.

If peoples reactions bother you, then it's either something you accept, or you change.

That's what I'm about.

If I wear a Liverpool jersey, it's fair to assume that I support Liverpool.
Even Gandhi would agree with that!:D

If you wear a liverpool jersey, (as I do) then you choose to support a club, and you declare it. There is no "scum-bag" club. Just a set of clothes that work in some places and some that don't. Have a stroll about Moyross or Southill in a three piece suit and a fob-watch and see how far you get.

As I said, if you come from a place where everyone wears blue, when you choose to step out your front door covered in yellow, you're going to hear all about it. This is the uniformity that our society demands of us in order to fit in. It is far from a choice such as choosing a team to shout for.

I Replied to other points up there, but they got lost in the italics. Sorry, wanted to address what you said a point at a time and didn't lay it out correctly.

I also felt I replied to what you had to say in my response to others who made much the same points, but you did take the time, so I took it there to write back.

Thanks for your input.

billy the squid

Simple definition of a scumbag

A person who makes monetary profit, or takes pleasure in, causing misfortune to others.

His attire is irrelavent.

Colin Mac

There's a saying - If it Looks Like a Duck and it Quacks Like a Duck, then it's Probably a Duck.

talkingclock

Or a sensible chicken from a disadvantaged area with a speech disorder.

sioda

After reading and re reading this entire thread I still feel it is an attempt at Trolling but to give my opinion.

Quote : If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

The above quote for me says it all. I also agree with the idea that the hat tracksuit cap and OTT jewellry has become a uniform for your modern troublemaker.

The title scumbag as defined by Billy

A person who makes monetary profit, or takes pleasure in, causing misfortune to others.

imo really works and can be aimed at any group of People from any walk and area of life.

Lecomte you keep asking for solutions how about throwing some up yourself.

Karmafaerie for me has some great points that you cant just throw facilities at the disenfranchised and expect them to go WOO HOO life is good.

To fix the situation I feel that the key lies in education not just of the people labelled as Scumbags but of the people (decision makers) outside these areas to stop fixing the houses and paying Dole to people who are just abusing the system

Karmafaerie

Lecomte, if you're going to try and respond to every point that somebody makes directly underneath, then it's common courtesy to differentiate your text to theres!

I'm way too disinterested to try and make sense of that quote and response job.
So in future, for simplicity's sake, why don't you use some of that "superior intellect and razor sharp wit" of yours to either embolden your own writing, or even better changethecolour, or at the very least a bit of italics wouldn't go astray.

Then I may try and make some sense of what you just wrote,

lecomte

sioda wrote:

After reading and re reading this entire thread I still feel it is an attempt at Trolling but to give my opinion.

Quote : If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

The above quote for me says it all. I also agree with the idea that the hat tracksuit cap and OTT jewellry has become a uniform for your modern troublemaker.

The title scumbag as defined by Billy

A person who makes monetary profit, or takes pleasure in, causing misfortune to others.

imo really works and can be aimed at any group of People from any walk and area of life.

Lecomte you keep asking for solutions how about throwing some up yourself.

Karmafaerie for me has some great points that you cant just throw facilities at the disenfranchised and expect them to go WOO HOO life is good.

To fix the situation I feel that the key lies in education not just of the people labelled as Scumbags but of the people (decision makers) outside these areas to stop fixing the houses and paying Dole to people who are just abusing the system

What I keep asking for is for people to actually read what they are responding to before they write, adn what I originally asked for was for people to stop using the word "scumbag" as though willies were nillies because I think it causes more problems than it solves. My solution? Well, I don't use the word. And I ask others not to.

lecomte

Karmafaerie wrote:

Lecomte, if you're going to try and respond to every point that somebody makes directly underneath, then it's common courtesy to differentiate your text to theres!

I'm way too disinterested to try and make sense of that quote and response job.
So in future, for simplicity's sake, why don't you use some of that "superior intellect and razor sharp wit" of yours to either embolden your own writing, or even better changethecolour, or at the very least a bit of italics wouldn't go astray.

Then I may try and make some sense of what you just wrote,

If you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and and what another person wrote without a great level of strain for yourself, I'd start to worry.

In future, I certainly will make my best effort to differentiate.

lecomte

Colin Mac wrote:

There's a saying - If it Looks Like a Duck and it Quacks Like a Duck, then it's Probably a Duck.

Quite a few ducks have thought the same thing in the past to their detriment.

ninty9er

Can we lock this one up Squid; it's going absolutely nowhere!!!

talkingclock

I think he's just trolling. Let's have it locked.