Greens vote for government - 87% of delegates in favour

Villain

The green party and FF have done a deal that just needs the leaders signatures:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfeyqlaumh/

It will be interesting to see how the cabinet looks.

RuggieBear

the fools. another buffer.

gilroyb

RuggieBear wrote:

the fools. another buffer.

Indeed. Don't they realise that as a political party they should have avoided the chance to bring about political change at all costs? Much better to sit in opposition and finally get the answer to how many angels are on the head of that pin.

RE*AC*TOR

Its still to be seen whether or not this will be approved by the party members.

One Cold Hand

....twat..... i've lost a lot of respect for them....

Liam Byrne

One Cold Hand wrote:

i've lost a lot of respect for them....

Same here, methinks.......I'm also DYING to see which of their "core demands" they sold out.....e.g.

1) Will the abuse of Shannon be stopped ?
2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?
etc, etc
3) Did they get any answers to Bertie's - let's be charitable - "recurring lack of disclosure"

Someone said on Q&A last night that trust was a requirement for Government.....if that's the case, I can't see how anyone could go into Government with FF.

Jimoslimos

One Cold Hand wrote:

....twat..... i've lost a lot of respect for them....

Why? Change can only be initiated from the inside. I'd say the opportunity will be grasped with both hands. Is Trev still stepping down as party leader then?

Edit: Yes I too wonder how many of their "core demands" they were forced to give up. However its too easy to have honourable principles whilst sitting in opposition.

brianthebard

Liam Byrne wrote:

Same here, methinks.......I'm also DYING to see which of their "core demands" they sold out.....e.g.

1) Will the abuse of Shannon be stopped ?
2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?
etc, etc
3) Did they get any answers to Bertie's - let's be charitable - "recurring lack of disclosure"

Someone said on Q&A last night that trust was a requirement for Government.....if that's the case, I can't see how anyone could go into Government with FF.

Have to agree those are very big key issues for many or most green supporters (and even just interested citizens like myself) and if the Greens have decided to drop them so they can get into government, well it doesn't say much for their moral or ethical fortitude.

The "deal" is not done yet according to the news at one.
The negotiations are on going.

But it will be by the sounds of things by the end of the day.

Breaking news dot ie were being a bit previous.

Changing thread title slightly.

Stark

Liam Byrne wrote:

2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?

The motorway was never going to go through Tara, just near it. (But still further than the existing N3). I'd imagine the motorway will still go ahead, but with some sort of a compromise route.

I just hope they win out on the whole corporate donations issue.

Jimoslimos

brianthebard wrote:

Have to agree those are very big key issues for many or most green supporters (and even just interested citizens like myself) and if the Greens have decided to drop them so they can get into government, well it doesn't say much for their moral or ethical fortitude.

It may be that Bertie is still chasing the Independents and PDs so as the Greens might be given the option to opt out of voting or even vote against FF on these key issues, thereby saving face.

gilroyb

For reasons of collective responsibility, an opt out on cabinet decisions is fairly unlikely.

brianthebard

Jimoslimos wrote:

It may be that Bertie is still chasing the Independents and PDs so as the Greens might be given the option to opt out of voting or even vote against FF on these key issues, thereby saving face.

Its not exactly the best basis for a stable and trusting or trustworthy government though is it?

brianthebard

brianthebard wrote:

Have to agree those are very big key issues for many or most green supporters (and even just interested citizens like myself) and if the Greens have decided to drop them so they can get into government, well it doesn't say much for their moral or ethical fortitude.

If you were watching Q&A last night, the vibes coming through were that the greens wanted to get some change,ie some of their policies moving.
They knew they couldnt get all of them and the only way to get some of them was to go into government.

Implimenting all green policies would be a travesty for democracy.

Their other less spoken about objective would be to show the looney right that they aren't as looney left as they are made out to be.
In other words they want to prove a point.

I would recommend though that the more extreme "tree huggers" in that party (if a deal is done) split and form a new one with other unrealistic extreme left wingers.
They could call it Provisional Green Féin.

Jimoslimos

Tristrame wrote:

.
Their other less spoken about objective would be to show the looney right that they aren't as looney left as they are made out to be.
In other words they want to prove a point.

True, and given the collapse of smaller parties and the failure of Greens to make any significant gains from the last election it was probably felt that this might be the last chance to enter government and get their policies to the table.

Tristrame wrote:

Provisional Green Féin

Nah, I'd prefer RIGA - Real Irish Green Army:D

loyatemu

FF - 78 seats
Greens - 6

it would not be reasonable for them to be able to get all their policies into the government programme but its better that they do get some of them in than sit in opposition while FF/PDs ignore climate change in the way they have done for the last 5 years. FF are going to be in government regardless of what the greens do.

It will also reduce the influence of the PDs which has to be a good thing.

seamus

loyatemu wrote:

FF are going to be in government regardless of what the greens do.

Well, the Greens offer a far more stable platform than PD + Ind does. This gives them some bargaining power - it's not like the Greens are on their knees begging to be let in (in fact, I'd say it's the exact opposite).

In reality, any party which enters a coalition will have to make compromises. The FG/Lab alliance has both sides basically agreeing to disagree in areas, but giving each other a sufficient number of their policies. So to blast the greens for making sacrifices is idiotic - if they were to take that stance, they would need an overall majority to keep all of their manifesto, and so they would never be in Government. I don't think we'll see a Green majority in my lifetime

I'd be surprised if John Gormley and another green don't get ministerial positions. John Gormley, Minister for Environment?

BendiBus

Liam Byrne wrote:

Same here, methinks.......I'm also DYING to see which of their "core demands" they sold out.....e.g.

1) Will the abuse of Shannon be stopped ?
2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?
etc, etc
3) Did they get any answers to Bertie's - let's be charitable - "recurring lack of disclosure"

It's feck all use sticking to all those principles if they can't do anything about it. They'd have an opportunity to actually achieve something in Government.

If the environment really is a ticking timebomb then they can't afford the luxury of waiting 5 more years in the hope of getting more. In addition, if they can't do a deal the risk losing credibility with the masses. And it's the transfers from ordinary voters rather than a hadcore green vote that gets them elected.

Liam Byrne

BendiBus wrote:

It's feck all use sticking to all those principles if they can't do anything about it. They'd have an opportunity to actually achieve something in Government.

Agreed; but if the things they wanted to achieve are the things that they need to discard in order to get in, then there's nothing left to achieve (other than, of course, power).

I'm not implying that they go off in a huff if they don't get everything they want - as stated above, the nature of coalition is compromise, but there are some key areas that they were very firm on, including Shannon and Tara.

As for Green policies - it'd be interesting to see if they manage to make some progress on infrastructure.....the cost (individually and globally) of sitting on our arses in traffic is phenomenal, but most of the country doesn't have a decent transport system.

If the Greens can achieve this alone it'll be a huge improvement for people's lifestyles and for the "car is king" culture. But the services need to be there; if there's no way of getting somewhere other than a car, then people will use their cars.

Example: here to Bluebell on Dublin's Naas Rd = 2hrs:45mins by either car or a cab/train/luas combo. OK, the cost is prohibitive, but it saves stress coz you can relax on the train with no road rage.

Compare that to here to anywhere in Galway, Shannon, Ennis, Cork and there's no other viable option, despite the potential traffic jams, etc.

Motorways and roads, etc are required, but we need effective, reasonably-priced and integrated public transport so that motorways and roads are used ONLY when essential.

mike65

Greena Fáil

Mike.

Lennoxschips

I Can't Believe It's the Greens!®

redspider

Its a risky move by the Greens. Even though the Leadership have said Yes, along with the reference group, they know that even with a Yes vote tomorrow by the members that can attend, 500 or whatever, that this may not reflect their mandate completely, the 4.7% of 1st preference votes and the numerous others that gave them transfers. I think Cuffe's original statement, as in 'dealing with the devil', is still true.

The whole manner of the negotiations, etc, is also far from satisfactory. Forcing members to vote mid-week at the last minute on a document they will only be presented with on the day, and also perhaps with some unseen and unknown aspects, such as ministeries, etc, is far from ideal. As has been stated, there are many in the party that see some power as better than none at all.

But there is a case of principles and how much one should be willing to bend some of them. One thing many voters of the Green Party dont like is another party or TD that breaks their principles. Isnt this why many people (although it doesnt look like a majority of people in Ireland) are on Bertie's back, because in essence in the past he was up to 'no good'? Sargent said that he would never work with Ahern. So what is he doing now? And there are others. The co-location problem, Harney in Health, corporate donations, US military use of Shannon, etc. A long list of principles. So something has gotta give. Either FF hav changed some of their spots or GP have. And no doubt the policy document may obfuscate to show that both parties are standing their ground. It could be interpretive.

But if Sargent/GP ignore their own principles, then there will be repercussions. Not by everyone in the party, not by all the voters of the past, but definitely by some. And how many will be lost and how many will be gained is a gamble, and prone to risk and potential failure.

But even if the Greens do go into government with FF, the Dail chamber will be a place to watch, as it could come crumbling down. Or, it could survive the 5 years.

Its now looking like for Thu:

FF+PD+3 Inds (Flynn, Healy-Rae, McGrath) = 83

Maybe a GP Ceann Comhairle .....

Redspider

aidan_walsh

All done bar the membership vote.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0612/election.html

The Green Party and Fianna Fáil have agreed a draft programme for government.

The 90-page document is to be put to a special Green Party conference tomorrow afternoon and will also be discussed by the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6746969.stm

The Republic of Ireland's Green Party has agreed to join Prime Minister Bertie Ahern's Fianna Fail in forming a coalition government.

If ratified by the party's membership on Wednesday, the agreement will see the Greens in an Irish government for the first time.

The deal means it is now likely that Mr Ahern will be re-elected taoiseach when the parliament convenes on Thursday.

Lucky for Trev that he left his "get out of jail free" clause in the "never in with FF comments", eh?

lostexpectation

im sorry what did the greens get out of this ?

SeanW

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Question now is, who sold out?

Heinrich

lostexpectation wrote:

im sorry what did the greens get out of this ?

I presume that Trevor Faust Sargent will get a Merc and some perks. Ryan would be the ideal CC as he is the greatest waffler in the Dail and the Gormless one would probably be the Super Duper Junior Minister for incinerators and polluted water.

Did someone say integrity?

Planet Bertie my arse!

Heinrich

SeanW wrote:

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Question now is, who sold out?

Greed is the word!;)

Starring Shifty and Faust in an awe inspiring borefest of Screw the Voters.:p

Cast of over 80 brave warriors.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

I presume that Trevor Faust Sargent will get a Merc and some perks. Ryan would be the ideal CC as he is the greatest waffler in the Dail and the Gormless one would probably be the Super Duper Junior Minister for incinerators and polluted water.

Did someone say integrity?

Planet Bertie my arse!
Greed is the word!

Starring Shifty and Faust in an awe inspiring borefest of Screw the Voters.

Cast of over 80 brave warriors.

I sense angst there.
You haven't even seen whatever it is thats agreed and you come out with those kind of platitudes...
So much for quality of debate.

seamus

The Greens are refusing to release the details of their agreement until it released to its members.

It's a nice idea - it stops the media from putting spin on it and influencing its members, but as someone pointed out, it leaves the members with very little time to digest it. Some may refuse to vote for it on that basis alone.

Heinrich

Tristrame wrote:

I sense angst there.
You haven't even seen whatever it is thats agreed and you come out with those kind of platitudes...
So much for quality of debate.

This is what I have read so far!

It emerged last night that the Greens have accepted that Iraq-bound United States military flights will continue to use Shannon airport and that all new roads planned by the outgoing Government will go ahead.

Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil has offered acting PD leader Mary Harney a transfer to the Department of Foreign Affairs, in a bid to overcome Green objections to her remaining in the Department of Health and Children. However, Ms Harney refused the offer outright and she is now set to resume her command of health, including the plan to build private hospitals on public hospital grounds, when the new Dáil meets on Thursday.

The Greens have also accepted that the controversial M3 motorway in Co Meath, which is to run near the Hill of Tara, will go ahead, despite its previous vociferous opposition to the plan.

There are already some significant items there for debate. Allowing for the trickling of information up to now I am persuaded that there will be more sell outs of Green principles before they get the PD treatment during the next term of office.

Saying one thing and doing another seems to be standard political currency in this country.

No angst there, just disappointment with the flip-floppers.

When does the thread get closed?

luckat

If they allow the road to go through Tara, they've lost my vote. I'll never vote for them again.

They must be some lousy bargainers if they have agreed to this! After all, they got as large a proportion of the vote as the PDs did last time.

Tar.Aldarion

seamus wrote:

The Greens are refusing to release the details of their agreement until it released to its members.

It's a nice idea - it stops the media from putting spin on it and influencing its members, but as someone pointed out, it leaves the members with very little time to digest it. Some may refuse to vote for it on that basis alone.

They have what? seven and a half hours to think about it?
More than enough time to come to a decision in that time imo.
Really keen to see what the deal is.

sugark

On the premise that what the Irish Times reported this morning is true (and that may be a pretty big premise), this is incredibly dissappointing. I would've been relatively satisfied if the Greens got something out of the deal, but so far it's only an unspecified carbon tax that will be introduced "sometime" in the next five years. If they’ve compromised on issues like Tara, Health, corporate donations, tax cuts and Shannon will the party membership say yes?

It's looking as if they have compromised way too much. What's the point in them being there if they haven't achieved anything and gone back on so many issues in their manifesto while alienating those who did give them votes. I think they'll go the way of a lot of the other Green parties in Europe who went into government in bad deals and punched way below their weight - it'll be the ruin of them. Again, if this report is true, they have destroyed any element of credibility they ever had and proved themselves to be just another power hungry bunch of politicians.

Have lost my vote permanently with this deal. I'll never even give them a preference, even if the iceberg's start floating up the Liffey.

Apologies for the rant, am just livid about this, Tara and co-location in particular... Hopefully as the details of the deal become clear it may not be as bad as initially reported.

seamus

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

They have what? seven and a half hours to think about it?
More than enough time to come to a decision in that time imo.
Really keen to see what the deal is.

Yeah, but you have to factor in reading time too
I can't see it being a four-page summary document

Akrasia

seamus wrote:

The Greens are refusing to release the details of their agreement until it released to its members.

It's a nice idea - it stops the media from putting spin on it and influencing its members, but as someone pointed out, it leaves the members with very little time to digest it. Some may refuse to vote for it on that basis alone.

It's a terrible idea seeing as the media (Irish times) has already published a version of what the Program for government might be and thereby already influenced the GP members. (regardless of how accurate their version is)

Akrasia

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

They have what? seven and a half hours to think about it?
More than enough time to come to a decision in that time imo.
Really keen to see what the deal is.

7.5 hours for the people who will be there for 7.5 hours. For the majority who will only be arriving half way through or at the very end, they will have virtually no time to assess the deal, and they'll only be left with the Irish Times version which i can't imagine very many hardcore supporters being very pleased with.

Tar.Aldarion

seamus wrote:

Yeah, but you have to factor in reading time too
I can't see it being a four-page summary document

Maybe a summary speech while they have their wine and cheese?

Akrasia

The Green Party spokespeople are saying that it's better to be in government and have a say in how the country is run, than to be in opposition and be powerless for another 5 years but how much of a say would they actually have if they can't even negotiate a single concession in the program for government.

The Greens are intended to be the 'back up' guys in case something happens to the PDs or independents. They are effectively going to be an opposition within the government, a lose lose lose situation, Collective responsibility for governmental failures, but no real power to push through their own policies.

An absolute disaster. Hopefully the Party will reject this totally and get rid of that muppet Sargent.

bryanw

Would they have gotten away with those policies under Enda Kenny?

Fine Gael support the troops using Shannon. Fine Gael are in favour of the M3 as soon as possible. FG/Lab were promising tax cuts. Every other party wants the roads finished. Sadly the Greens probably would have got away with what they wanted on most of these. Enda seems so desperate that he'll do anything to be Taoiseach. Has he finally given up now that this deal is on the table?

I say give the Greens the ministries they want, Transport and Environment. Seeing as they roads are going to be built now - leave that with the NRA. Let them fix public transport because it needs to be done - they can't do much harm. Give them Environment too - send Dick Roche to the back benches!

Now what a great cabinet it would be...

Harney in Health
Eamon Ryan in the new "Dept. of Public Transport"
Gormley in Environment
O' Dea moves to Justice (maybe)
Cullen to Defence (maybe)
...and the rest as you were.

Not liking the sound of that carbon tax though.

JerkyBoy

In essense the Green party have gotten little from FF in this deal and are likely to wield little real power in the new Government.

FF are the real winners in this deal as they will be given a comfortable majoirty with this deal and it cost them very little.
Bertie has essentially been handed a get out of jail free card on the Tribunal too.

Trevor has just pulled a McDowell...by acting like everything is hunky-dory with Bertie and his non-answers about payments to him.

It just took longer for Trevor to get there but there's no doubt about it...he's just pulled a McDowell.

Keeping quiet in the interest of power.

I can't see myself voting Green again after this.

sugark

Looks like it could be busy outside the Mansion House today! The Anti-War protesters are being joined by members of the Tara Watch campaign to protest against the deal (I presume on the basis of the Irish Times report this morning).

I wonder if this will have any kind of impact on members. Although if Trevor has any kind of political savvy he would have to be pretty sure that he'll get the two thirds majority needed before bringing the deal to this stage.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

This is what I have read so far!

and thats not in your last platitude filled previous post.
Platitude is not debate as you know.

There are already some significant items there for debate.
No angst there, just disappointment with the flip-floppers.

Ah So what is it you expect?
1. A majority green government some day? likelyhood zero
2.Greens to stay out of government for ever and ever so they have no influence on actioned policy?

If thats your school of though well good luck to you to be honest.

When does the thread get closed?

Discussion of moderation is not tolerated here.
If you proceed with any more of that,you'll see some moderation in action towards yourself and not the thread.

chump

from politics.ie

1pm: Media briefing with Party Chairman John Gormley at entrance to venue

1pm: Documents distributed to party members

3 - 4.30pm: Clarification discussions with negotiating team

4.30 - 6pm: Break

4.45pm: Media briefing with Party Chairman John Gormley at entrance to venue

6 - 8.30pm: Formal motion approving the programme for government and mandating the Parliamentary Party to enter government will be presented and debated. Fourty speakers – twenty speakers in support of the motion and twenty against – drawn at random from a hat, will have three minutes each to put forward arguments.

8.30pm: Vote by secret ballot

9.15pm apr: Results announced

So what do you think will be the outcome of this vote?

Uuuh Patsy

chump wrote:

from politics.ie


So what do you think will be the outcome of this vote?

If this is true ...

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0613/1181302059242.html

"A compromise on Shannon means that Dáil approval will be required before any non-United Nations mandated military flight will be allowed to land, but this will not interfere with the Americans' current use of the airport, since they now operate on a UN mandate.

The Greens have also accepted that the controversial M3 motorway in Co Meath, which is to run near the Hill of Tara, will go ahead, despite its previous vociferous opposition to the plan.

Fianna Fáil has refused to offer any concessions to the Greens on another one of its key election platforms - the demand for an end to political parties and politicians accepting corporate donations.

The carbon tax will be introduced at some point over the next five years, but the level has not been agreed: "It is for an uncertain time, at an uncertain rate," one source close to the talks told The Irish Times late last night.

The Greens have accepted that Fianna Fáil's plan to cut both the standard and top rate of tax will go ahead, subject to Fianna Fáil's election campaign qualification that they can be afforded by the exchequer.

Following strong demands for extra funding for education from Green negotiators John Gormley, Dan Boyle and Donall Geoghegan, Fianna Fáil has committed to spending an extra €50 million a year.

The Greens have sought the departments of the environment and transport, but no agreement has yet been reached on this, although it is possible that both departments could be substantially reordered.

In line with these priorities, it was suggested to the Greens that sections of the department of the environment would be detached and merged with energy to form a new department responsible for climate change issues.

Despite the Greens' demand for two senior ministers - using the precedent set by the Progressive Democrats in 1989 - Fianna Fáil has refused, offering one senior, one so-called "super junior" and one ordinary minister of state post."



Then they would be insane to ....

Excellent.

The cynic in me says if people whinge about issues like Shannon stopovers, Rossport or the Tara road, FF can now say that if its good enough for the Greens then it should be good enough for everyone.

And if people whinge about policy areas like the economy education or health, FF can point to the Greens and refer to their inexperience in Government.

Happy days all round.

Oirthir

Jaysus, if the details off ireland.com are true, then the Green's are being well and truly shafted!

I mean, the PD's get a huge Ministership (Health or Foreign) (possibly a junior for Grealish) with just two sodding TDs, and the Greens only get one full minister, a "super junior" minister (wtf?) and a minister of state with three times the seats?

Not to mention a raft of so-called compromises? A FF compromise that is, ie "no".

RE*AC*TOR

I imagine that the membership of the greens will turn down such an offer.

If you sell your soul to the devil, it better be for a high price.

Akrasia

well, according to dan Boyle on Newstalk's one o clock news, the Irish times report left out a lot of stuff...

marco_polo

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I imagine that the membership of the greens will turn down such an offer.

If you sell your soul to the devil, it better be for a high price.

But would they have got a whole lot more out of a deal with FG / Labour? I don't think so to be honest. I couldn't see FG or stopping the US flights into Shannon or the M3 for example in spite of all their bluster in opposition.

Uuuh Patsy

Big price to pay to keep your mouth shut for 5 years. They would be dead by the next election

RE*AC*TOR

marco_polo wrote:

But would they have got a whole lot more out of a deal with FG / Labour? I don't think so to be honest. I couldn't see FG or stopping the US flights into Shannon or the M3 for example in spite of all their bluster in opposition.

Maybe not, but that's not the point. Its as much about who they are doing the deal with as what the deal is, as you know.