Some advice please....

Gaz

Hi all,

Looking for some advice from you very knowledgeable people with regard to gaining muscle , toning up etc ...

About 2 years ago i was a few stone over weight, ive since lost the extra weight by improving my diet and with a sh!t load of cardio, Im 6ft , weight is a pound or two over 12st and a body fat percentage of 17.5 % (according to machine in gym)

Now im looking to bulk up a bit and get some definition, particularly in my chest,abs and arms.

My diet is quite good ... i think , a typical day would be ..
Breakfast - 4 Weetabix with skimmed milk
Lunch - Lean ham on granary bread with low fat spread and a diet coke
Dinner - Large garden salad with grilled chicken or lean steak
Evening snack is an apple or two.
I eat what ever i want on a saturday and usually have a six pack of beer on a friday.

My routine in Gym is ... (every second day)
10min warm up on bike
4 or 5 upper body weight routines , usually 3 sets of 10-12 , and failing at end of third set
4 or 5 lower body weight routines , usually 3 sets of 10-12 , and failing at end of third set
20mins on rowing machine , then stretches.

This has only been going on for a month now , can someone give me advice on anything i should do differently or is this ok ? How long usually before seeing some good results ? and finally , would a protein supplement be a good idea ?

Thanks lads , appreciate all advice !

Gaz

.

daveirl

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Gaz

Forgive me but i dont know all the correct exercise names , but my work out is basically as follows ...

10min warmup on bike.

3 sets of each of the following , with 12 reps each , failing on end of last set..
Arms by side pulling weights down by rope (machine) (think it works triceps)
Lying flat on bench and lifting weights straight up
Hands and knees on bench and lifting weight from floor to side
Standing and lifting weights with out stretched arms (flys ??)

Then i do the following , afain 3 sets of 12reps , failing on last set ...
Leg press
Sitting , bending legs back to lift weights (machine)
Sitting , straightening legs to lift weights (machine)
Squats (machine)
Machine where you only move calfs, with weight on shoulders

Then i do 3 sets of bi-cep curls and 3 sets of hammer curls (on machine)

Then 20mins on bike

10 mins of stretching

So is that ok or am i doing anything wrong ?? Should i only be working one part of my body each gym visit or is this ok ??

Again, sorry i dont know all the correct names , im getting there though

Thanks again !!!

SliteConfusion

Hi DH,


I will not get into the body fat issue as this is a tricky one. Some mens body fat can be as low as 8% but a healthy indicator can range between 8% and 19%. I do not know too much about this so will leave that one there.

You will want to gain muscle but still keep up the cardio to keep the fat at bay. Remember long, low intensity cardio does not burn more fat i.e. you can burn as many calories in a 30 minute higher intensity cardio work-out as opposed to 45 mins lower intensity. You need to train out at 70/80% of your target heart rate.

I do not know how big you wish to get, so the following is just some basic info. You need to increase your protein and carb intake. Increase your protein intake to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight. Carbs are a huge part of the muscle building diet. Protein may be primarily responsible for repair and rebuilding muscle but also needs sufficient carbs, as well as other basic nutrients, that I won't get into....too confusing. If the body has insufficent carbs it can and will convert protein into a carb energy source. You don't want this to happen. Limit your intake of simple carbs i.e. fruit juices as they have a short shelf life in the body and if not used quickly can store as fat. Complex carbs contain more sugars than the simple carbs but provide slower release into the blood, therefore have a longer shelf life in the body. Eat more potatoes, brown rice, oats and whole grains. Also, increase your fibre intake, but don't overdo it. A good indicator is 10 grams of fibre for every 1,000 cosumed.

Your diet to me seems quite small!

Now your weights programme to me looks more like a toned programme, you should be lifting heavy with three sets of approx 6-8 reps. Try bench pressing, bounces, bent over row, military press, behind the neck, bicep curls, work the lats, lunges, squats.......just increase the weight. You should only make it to 6-8 reps. Ask your gym instructor.

Hanley

^^some pretty good advice there.

I disagree that you need cardio to keep the fat at bay, or even to lose it tho.

Also, what are "bounces"?

GreenHorn

Hanley wrote:

I disagree that you need cardio to keep the fat at bay, or even to lose it tho.

Should regular(ish) weight training keep u looking trim? I know that's a very broad question, but I was just trying to clarify what you mean by saying you don't necessarily need cardio...

daveirl

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Hanley

daveirl wrote:

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Yeah exactly. If you're just going thru the motions then you're wasting your time. But if you're working hard in the gym and eating relatively clean then I see no need to do cardio for apprearance purposes. Now if we were to talk health wise I'd be saying something totally different..

daveirl

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SliteConfusion

Increased muscle means your body will appear firmer and more compact, however, if you have fat to strip and continute to weight train without a cardio programme you are only excercising the muscle under the fat, which is pretty pointless. Weight training can contribute to fat loss, as muscle tissue burns fat. But just lifting weights will not constitute fat loss. Strength training will burn calories after you have finished training, however an ideal programme for fat loss includes diet, weight training and cardio.

In my opinion, if you want to look good, cardio plays a huge part from a fitness and visual point of view.

Hanley

SliteConfusion wrote:

Increased muscle means your body will appear firmer and more compact, however, if you have fat to strip and continute to weight train without a cardio programme you are only excercising the muscle under the fat, which is pretty pointless. Weight training can contribute to fat loss, as muscle tissue burns fat. But just lifting weights will not constitute fat loss. Strength training will burn calories after you have finished training, however an ideal programme for fat loss includes diet, weight training and cardio.

In my opinion, if you want to look good, cardio plays a huge part from a fitness and visual point of view.

In my opinion, and experience. You are wrong.

Fat loss comes from using more calories than you consume. One could train so hard in the gym, and have such a high BMR (due to having muscle mass above the norm) that they can get leaner thru minor dietary changes (or none at all even, provided the workload is sufficent.)

Dragan

SliteConfusion wrote:

if you have fat to strip and continute to weight train without a cardio programme you are only excercising the muscle under the fat, which is pretty pointless.

THis line makes no sense to me. Calorific expenditure will be caused by activity, regardless of the type. As already mentioned once you are using more calories per day that you are eating, the logical result is burning stored calories to make up for difference leading to a lose of adipose.

I don't see how that can be confusing at all.

Degsy

If you've got a LOT of fat to shift,weight training alone isnt going to do it,especially if the fat has been there a while.

SliteConfusion

It is fine if my comments do not make sense to you, as advice on this board comes free, and people are free to use the advice given as they so wish. In my very honest opinion, I would not rely on anyones comments, including my own, and would always do my own research based around peoples advice. I never claimed to be an expert and everyone is going to disagree at some point to someone elses comments.

If you want to see major results, results that look good then you have to train hard, eat sensibly and most of all, get alot of rest.

Darth Homer, good luck with the training.

SliteConfusion

Degsy, I couldn't agree more with you.

Dragan

Degsy wrote:

If you've got a LOT of fat to shift,weight training alone isnt going to do it,especially if the fat has been there a while.

Hmmmm, once again i disagree.

January 06 i was 300lbs pretty much on the button. My body composition was horrible. Truly a fat little ****er i was.

Within a year i had dropped 60lbs of bodyfat. Today i would say i have dropped 100lbs of fat since that start date, and added plenty of quality muscle to make up for.

I think i stepped on a cardio machine twice.....i think i ran outside once. Everything else was weights based.

I would also be very interested to see some research on long existing adipose stores being more difficult to shift than newly acquired ones?

Dragan

SliteConfusion wrote:

It is fine if my comments do not make sense to you, as advice on this board comes free

Sure, it comes free but it's also important to know what you are talking about.

To be honest, i really want a decent explanation of what you said if thats not too much trouble or i shall simply be filing under "Breach of Rule 1" of the charter.

Dragan,
- Sifting through the dregs.

SliteConfusion

Maybe I am incorrect in saying this but I think Degsy was merely saying that if there was fat to lose, and it was there for a while, perhaps he should consider working out more intensely. I don't think he/she was saying because the fat may be there for some time, that it will take longer to get rid of.

I could be wrong, but I believe that is what he/she means.

Degsy

Dragan wrote:

Hmmmm, once again i disagree.

January 06 i was 300lbs pretty much on the button. My body composition was horrible. Truly a fat little ****er i was.

Within a year i had dropped 60lbs of bodyfat. Today i would say i have dropped 100lbs of fat since that start date, and added plenty of quality muscle to make up for.

I think i stepped on a cardio machine twice.....i think i ran outside once. Everything else was weights based.

I would also be very interested to see some research on long existing adipose stores being more difficult to shift than newly acquired ones?

I thought you were more like 240lbs at that stage,i vaguely remember you posting a thread called "lets get to know each other.." or summat like that with your stats on it?Anyhoo,if you did drop 100lb in a year it was every bit as much to do with you watching your diet as weights training alone.I was 15 stone two years ago with no muscle at all,merely a huge belly and moobs,i gave up boozing for six months and worked out three times a week and it still took me a year to lose most of the fat,bearing in mind my diet was pretty good at the time and the fat had come from beer mostly.I was 33 at that time and i'd been piling the pounds on for a decade due to drinking.When i was 24 i could lose half a stone in a week by cutting out chips(for example) alone.The fact is the older you are and the longer you've been fat,the more difficult it is to lose and the less likely you are to do so through weights alone.I'm merely talking from experience.

Dragan

It's all about BMR to be honest. As you get older you lose lean mass, your BMR drops but your food intake rarely does and this leads to the old "middle age spread."

The simple fact is not that you found it hard to lose weight because you had been heavy for a long time, it's probably because

1) Your diet was not as tight as you think it was, timings were off, carb sources were off ….etc
2) Your effort in the gym was submaximal

That might sound harsh but the simple fact is that this is the case for most people, inlcuding me from the age of 16 to 20.

It really is as simple as calories in vs calories out. But if they are coming in then you gotta ****ing earn them.

t-ha

Degsy wrote:

If you've got a LOT of fat to shift,weight training alone isnt going to do it,especially if the fat has been there a while.

I know where you're coming from but tbh the above statement is too dogmatic to be right. I also (as well as Dragan) lost alot of fat when I started training with just weights (and obviously my diet improved as I went along also).

Therefore my opinion would be that "cardio" as it is traditionally thought of is not a neccessity to dropping bodyfat - but done right it can sure help!

Degsy

t-ha wrote:

I know where you're coming from but tbh the above statement is too dogmatic to be right. I also (as well as Dragan) lost alot of fat when I started training with just weights (and obviously my diet improved as I went along also)

Diet here being the operative word.I'm just saying if you're a fat bastard who eats a load of junk you can lift weights till you split a seam and you're not going to shift much of the fat,sure muscle mass burns more calories at rest but you'd need to be carrying a hell of a lot of muscle to burn two stone of fat without either adjusting your diet or upping your cardio.

daveirl

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SliteConfusion

I have never myself lost body fat alone from just doing weight training, but I have never just worked out with weights and nothing else. However, you achieved your resuts, with the method which suited you best. I cannot comment otherwise and can only speak from my experience.

I personally would approach it from a health / fitness point of view.

That is all I have to say.

Dragan

SliteConfusion wrote:

That is all I have to say.

If you don't mind i'd still like some kind of valid explanation as to why you feel doing weights would just "work the muscles under the fat" and not do anything to help shift the fat itself.

Call me picky, but people making points and then not backing them up just bugs me.

depadz

The cardio vs weights debate for weight loss purposes aside, surely it is good advice for a fat person to do cardio to improve their cv fitness?

SliteConfusion

Dragan, you are basing your opinions solely on a weights programme and if that works for you, good luck with that. I do not agree with your method of training but as long as you look good when looking in the mirror then I am happy for you.

If you are going to advise DH from your point of view, why don't you tell him how long he needs to spend in the weights room, how often he needs to lift, how much to lift and how long before he sees results. I cannot do this, as I am not advising him from your point of view.

I suggested he lifts heavier, work his cardio, eat more carbs and increase his protein intake etc. I am advising him to approach things sensibly. Would you disagree that if his weight training was not as strict as yours (however strict that is....I do not have the answers to this) that if he held additional fat and did not workout in the weights room as hard as he needs to, that he would be working the muscle under the fat he holds.

To me he seems like a guy who enjoys going to the gym, and he has incorporated cardio into his training. Why change the mans programme, I am trying to work with what he knows and advise him on the small bit I seem to know.

t-ha

Degsy wrote:

Diet here being the operative word.I'm just saying if you're a fat bastard who eats a load of junk you can lift weights till you split a seam and you're not going to shift much of the fat,sure muscle mass burns more calories at rest but you'd need to be carrying a hell of a lot of muscle to burn two stone of fat without either adjusting your diet or upping your cardio.

Of course diet is important, but a "fat bastard who eats a load of junk" could do alot of things (cardio included) and make no progress with his fatloss as long as he's eating enough junk. The point is that if a weight-stable but overweight person keeps the same diet but adds in seam-splitting weight training sessions that they will lose a significant amount of fat (and in my experience considerably more than someone who does only cardio and no weights).

Anyway, as fwedrest has rightly pointed out, this is all just being pedantic - cardio is good for the CV system, will assist weight loss efforts & just generally makes you feel better when done right. I've done my share of cardio-dodging in the past as I mentioned, but I definitely think it's a good inclusion to most people's training week.

SliteConfusion

Call me picky, but people making points and then not backing them up just bugs me.

Sorry for bugging you....I did not realise you got wound up so easily. Could I perhaps suggest you pop on down to your gym tonight and do some cardio. If might help you let off some steam. I promise, you will feel good after it.

daveirl

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SliteConfusion

In fact you're saying t-ha is wound up when he does loads of cardio and has agreed that this whole argument is just being pedantic!

No, I was responding to Dragan who said, quote: Call me picky, but people making points and then not backing them up just bugs me.

Gaz

Thanks for all the advice guys ...

Im not a fat git trying to loose weight by weight training alone, I was overweight a couple of years ago and spent a year working very hard losing it through cardio and diet , now im quite happy with my body shape but would like to tone up and get some nice muscle definition.

Now im also happy with my progress so far ... 1 month ago i was 77Kg and now im 81kg, as my diet is good and ive been doing alot of weight and some cardio im going assume the weight gain is muscle gain.

BUT , and heres my question ... I have a small amount of fat around my stomach , maybe a pinchable inch , this seems to be very stubborn fat to get rid of , with my current routine im very tired after the weights and can only manage a 20min high intensity cardio workout afterwards (ive read that cardio after weights is better) Will this be sufficient to get rid of the stomach fat ?? Do i just need to be patient and keep going at it ??

Thanks again , everyone !

Degsy

Darth Homer wrote:

Thanks for all the advice guys ...

Im not a fat git trying to loose weight by weight training alone, I was overweight a couple of years ago and spent a year working very hard losing it through cardio and diet , now im quite happy with my body shape but would like to tone up and get some nice muscle definition.

Now im also happy with my progress so far ... 1 month ago i was 77Kg and now im 81kg, as my diet is good and ive been doing alot of weight and some cardio im going assume the weight gain is muscle gain.

BUT , and heres my question ... I have a small amount of fat around my stomach , maybe a pinchable inch , this seems to be very stubborn fat to get rid of , with my current routine im very tired after the weights and can only manage a 20min high intensity cardio workout afterwards (ive read that cardio after weights is better) Will this be sufficient to get rid of the stomach fat ?? Do i just need to be patient and keep going at it ??

Thanks again , everyone !

Only one pinchable inch?You lucky sod!Anyways,that last inch is allways the last place to go so keep at it and dont let your diet slide.

t-ha

Darth Homer wrote:

BUT , and heres my question ... I have a small amount of fat around my stomach , maybe a pinchable inch , this seems to be very stubborn fat to get rid of...

I know exactly what you're talking about. That's one of the last places to go for alot of people (myself included, along with love handles and lower chest). Basically this fat is more stubborn - it has less of the receptors that tell the fat to mobilize and provide energy & more of the receptors that tell it to store up!

Essentially you just have to keep going until your body gives up that fat too. This is where a good & varied diet, with a good training programme including weights and a high activity level generally becomes important - to get rid of all stubborn pouches of fat like this can mean dropping (well) into single digits of bodyfat & trying to do this without a good diet & exercise programme will leave you skinny & lethargic (basically don't be tempted to starve yourself, keep eating your protein, a little carbs & fats, especially varied fruits, berries, vegetables, teas etc.).

Also, if you drink alot of coffee try to cut that out & get good sleep. This is because the stress-hormone cortisol if often associated with difficulty in getting rid of lower belly fat.

Regarding what techniques to use to get rid of the fat itself, I'd go along with this article by Alwyn Cosgrove: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=07-060-diet

SliteConfusion

A sensible diet is imperative. Also, when you lose fat you lose it from all places you hold it, not just from one particular area.

Do you do core excercises? I suggest you work your upper abs, lower, obliques, transverse abdominals and lower back three times per week. You will note huge results in a number of weeks, if you keep this up.