More tolerance, maybe?

Binomate

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I'd like to see boards take up a more tolerant attitude in moderation towards threads that may be considered offensive to a particular group of people, or if not a change of moderating policy, create a forum where such threads could be moved to and continued with some kind of age limit restriction. Now I'm not trying to play the "OMG WE HAVE RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH" card here, but it would be nice for boards to allow some of the more extreme side of things through. Some of them I find, are quite interesting or entertaining.

Take a look at After Hours as an example. Every time there is a topic about the travelling community or eastern Europeans, there's always someone who gets banned for racism or complaining about a certain group of people because they don't like that group of people for what ever reason. We have something similar for those extra spirited debates that result in flame wars, where people can continue the threads or take up the issue in the thunderdrome.


What do you think?

David Michael

Binomate wrote:

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I'd like to see boards take up a more tolerant attitude in moderation towards threads that may be considered offensive to a particular group of people, or if not a change of moderating policy, create a forum where such threads could be moved to and continued with some kind of age limit restriction. Now I'm not trying to play the "OMG WE HAVE RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH" card here, but it would be nice for boards to allow some of the more extreme side of things through. Some of them I find, are quite interesting or entertaining.

Take a look at After Hours as an example. Every time there is a topic about the travelling community or eastern Europeans, there's always someone who gets banned for racism or complaining about a certain group of people because they don't like that group of people for what ever reason. We have something similar for those extra spirited debates that result in flame wars, where people can continue the threads or take up the issue in the thunderdrome.


What do you think?

Look at your election process.

Minority rules. Common sense does not come into it but a show formulae says it does.

Time Magazine

For everyone cry of over-modding, there's a reported post. Some fora have different standards in different dimensions: in Humanities you need to intelligent debate; in the Thunderdome you need balls. After Hours is the sandbox of Boards and thus needs to be kept fairly strict imo.

David Michael

Ibid wrote:

For everyone cry of over-modding, there's a reported post. Some fora have different standards in different dimensions: in Humanities you need to intelligent debate; in the Thunderdome you need balls. After Hours is the sandbox of Boards and thus needs to be kept fairly strict imo.

Well thought out.

A shiney medal is on its way.

mad m

David Michael wrote:

Well thought out.

A shiney medal is on its way.

Banned...Pm sent....:)

David Michael

mad m wrote:

Banned...Pm sent....:)

thanks. I assume you are the folk the OP was on about.

Karoma

"Tolerance"? You hypocrite.

Discussion of these topics is allowed.
One is pretty much "free" to say almost anything one likes as long as one doesn't go way OTT, ex: mindless slurs, or threats of violence, or it's the same tired crap over and over from the same poster. You think it's acceptable to use words like nigger when referring to a black person? What do such words contribute to a discussion?
Even in a society that professes "free speech", such crap is outlawed.

As for the bans handed out, would you care to review the bans in each thread each time? You might notice a pattern. There are warnings given and yet people just walk right into a situation that demands a ban by usually going way OTT or just refusing to STFU and get some common sense. Have a look. It works both ways.

David Michael

mad m wrote:

Banned...Pm sent....:)

I didn't get a PM from this person.

Can they be banned for wasting my time? They deluded me

A ban would set a good example.

Talliesin

Binomate wrote:

Every time there is a topic about the travelling community or eastern Europeans, there's always someone who gets banned for racism or complaining about a certain group of people because they don't like that group of people for what ever reason.

So we should be more tolerant of intolerance?

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Talliesin wrote:

So we should be more tolerant of intolerance?

.

6th

Binomate wrote:

it would be nice for boards to allow some of the more extreme side of things through. Some of them I find, are quite interesting or entertaining.

Just use the Thunderdome, we don't need another forum.

Karoma

Or stormfront?

monkeyfudge

Or a late night radio phone in show, perhaps?

6th

Actually, do Stormfront have a late night radio show?

scojones

Binomate wrote:

Now I'm not trying to play the "OMG WE HAVE RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH" card here

You can't play that card. It doesn't exist.

stovelid

Have the discussions in relevant fora where you have to present and validate an opinion rather than ranting. Failing that, go to the Thunderdome or start a Skype conference chat with a load of mates and rant about dirty foreigners, gays and black fellas to your heart's content.

bonkey

Binomate wrote:

it would be nice for boards to allow some of the more extreme side of things through.

Nice for whom, exactly?

Nice for the targets of such extremism?
Nice for the owners of boards who carry a degree of legal liability for what they permit on their site?

Or just nice for the people who think that their right to Freedom of Speech is more important than other people's rights to stupid insignificant things like equality?

raido9

I agree with OP, when a thread is found to be unsuitable for a particular forum, instead of deleting or locking it, move it to another forum, so anyone still interested in it can continue talking about it. But at the same time it'll be out of the way of people who were opposed to it. Win-win

monkeyfudge

Unfortunately we can't move threads to Stormfront.

6th

Can someone look into making it possible? Do we have a stormfront embassador?

flogen

Any of the recent AH threads about minorities that I've seen haven't had many bannings - maybe you could give some examples of these overly harsh bannings? The only one I remember was in the thread on "romanian beggers (sic)" in AH - one guy was banned for advocating Hitler's tactics and saying we should finish the job he started.

Other than that there were plenty of conflicting opinions within the thread that were disagreed with, deconstructed, argued against etc., but that no-one was banned for.

Anyway as Ibid says, different fora have different rules for things like this, and Humanities and Politics would treat a discussion differently to AH - partly because these fora are more inclined to have real discussion without childish interruption. Either way you can't just say what you want and cry "rights infringement!" when it gets ridiculed or removed - this ain't Stormfront and you need to justify your comments, which can be hard to do if you're irrationally intolerant or supportive of Hitler's tactics, for example

6th

Well said flogen

Anti

Binomate wrote:

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I'd like to see boards take up a more tolerant attitude in moderation towards threads that may be considered offensive to a particular group of people, or if not a change of moderating policy, create a forum where such threads could be moved to and continued with some kind of age limit restriction. Now I'm not trying to play the "OMG WE HAVE RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH" card here, but it would be nice for boards to allow some of the more extreme side of things through. Some of them I find, are quite interesting or entertaining.

Take a look at After Hours as an example. Every time there is a topic about the travelling community or eastern Europeans, there's always someone who gets banned for racism or complaining about a certain group of people because they don't like that group of people for what ever reason. We have something similar for those extra spirited debates that result in flame wars, where people can continue the threads or take up the issue in the thunderdrome.


What do you think?

What you want is done over in www.somethingawfull.com You have to pay 10$ a yeah but its well worth it. Everything is fair play no matter how racist or sick. Even Scat.avi was on there.

RuggieBear

6th wrote:

Do we have a stormfront embassador?

Karl Hungus.

Anti wrote:

What you want is done over in www.somethingawfull.com You have to pay 10$ a yeah but its well worth it. Everything is fair play no matter how racist or sick. Even Scat.avi was on there.

They fall under US libel law...very different to what boards must endure with irish law (I believe)
__________________

Binomate

Anti wrote:

What you want is done over in www.somethingawfull.com You have to pay 10$ a yeah but its well worth it. Everything is fair play no matter how racist or sick. Even Scat.avi was on there.

Already a member. But I'm not looking for a place that I can be racist. It's more like wanting to see racists post their shit, and then get jumped on by the masses instead of getting banned for it. Less political correctness.

flogen wrote:

Any of the recent AH threads about minorities that I've seen haven't had many bannings - maybe you could give some examples of these overly harsh bannings? The only one I remember was in the thread on "romanian beggers (sic)" in AH - one guy was banned for advocating Hitler's tactics and saying we should finish the job he started.

I'm not saying the bannings are overly harsh. They're perfect for what boards is. I'm just calling for a little bit of a variation. The travellers threads are always contain examples. Use of the word "knacker" etc.

flogen wrote:

Other than that there were plenty of conflicting opinions within the thread that were disagreed with, deconstructed, argued against etc., but that no-one was banned for.

Anyway as Ibid says, different fora have different rules for things like this, and Humanities and Politics would treat a discussion differently to AH - partly because these fora are more inclined to have real discussion without childish interruption. Either way you can't just say what you want and cry "rights infringement!" when it gets ridiculed or removed - this ain't Stormfront and you need to justify your comments, which can be hard to do if you're irrationally intolerant or supportive of Hitler's tactics, for example

It can be hard to win an argument with someone who's completely irrational, but it's easy to laugh at that person instead. But I suppose Ibid is right.

Anti

RuggieBear wrote:

Karl Hungus.


They fall under US libel law...very different to what boards must endure with irish law (I believe)
__________________

Ah right. Didnt know that, thanks ruggie

flogen

Binomate wrote:

I'm not saying the bannings are overly harsh. They're perfect for what boards is. I'm just calling for a little bit of a variation. The travellers threads are always contain examples. Use of the word "knacker" etc.

What do you mean by variation?

To be honest I don't think the problem you're talking about really exists. AH mods have to be stricter because things get out of hand there so much faster than elsewhere, but on fora like Politics and Humanities making a "controversial" statements is not a bannable offense. It's only when people start getting OTT or childish and insulting (because they can't win an argument on merit) that they get banned.

Boston

Anti wrote:

What you want is done over in www.somethingawfull.com You have to pay 10$ a yeah but its well worth it. Everything is fair play no matter how racist or sick. Even Scat.avi was on there.

Small point, but it was called swap.avi

GuanYin

I propose a Stormfront forum

Boston

Where all the moderators are Gay, Jewish and Black.

RuggieBear

Boston wrote:

Where all the moderators are Gay, Jewish and Black.

it's perfect for you!

DeVore

This is actually the sort of feedback I like to see. I mean, I dont agree with the OP but its put in a reasonable and mature fashion. Some of the responses have been a little "shrill", this is a serious topic not only for Boards but for society... when do we decide something is beyond acceptible? What do we do with transgressors? What sort of rules do we want applied to us and how do we agree those rules?

Personally I think there is a good balance struck right now. I understand the OP thinks it might be better to allow discussion to happen, but in my view I dont think we need to allow derogatory slurs to be thrown around in order to allow debate to occur.

I would love to see a real-world version of Feedback where we could complain about the laws of the land ...

DeV.

Anti

Boston wrote:

Small point, but it was called swap.avi

Jesus H christ !

Do you ever keep your trap shut? It was called scat.avi, there is swap.avi too and eels.wmv.... But i was on about scat.avi

Gordon

Binomate wrote:

Already a member. But I'm not looking for a place that I can be racist. It's more like wanting to see racists post their shit, and then get jumped on by the masses instead of getting banned for it. Less political correctness.

Build it and they will come! I propose you call your new forum www.racists-posthereandthengetjumpedonbythemassesinsteadofgettingbannedforit.com

That's your best bet, good luck with your venture.

6th

Domain is already taken.

Boston

DeVore; There's a fundamental problem with perception. People aren't actually engaging in discussion about the topic, but rather the OP wants cart blanc to say whatever he wants without being called on it. Intolerant attitudes are tolerated on boards.ie however their not protected like on other forums. Here everyone is free to say you're wrong. Abusive or badly thought out arguments are almost worse then intolerant ones. **** like "Knackers are scum" really doesn't contribute much in the way of anything.

Anti wrote:

Jesus H christ !

Do you ever keep your trap shut? It was called scat.avi, there is swap.avi too and eel.avi....

GuanYin

DeVore wrote:

This is actually the sort of feedback I like to see. I mean, I dont agree with the OP but its put in a reasonable and mature fashion. Some of the responses have been a little "shrill", this is a serious topic not only for Boards but for society... when do we decide something is beyond acceptible? What do we do with transgressors? What sort of rules do we want applied to us and how do we agree those rules?

I'm deadly serious about the stormfront forum. We actually talked about this one night over beers iirc and you half thought about it.

They come here anyway, why not localise them and see how they do when they have to make their points rationaly and not under their own biased moderation. Of course, the same has to be said for the posters that jump down their throats without thinking.

Maybe it will be a pointless exercise, but if we manage to reach just one person with reasoned, rational discussion and make them think about their views, then the forum is worthwhile.

Boston

psi wrote:

I'm deadly serious about the stormfront forum. We actually talked about this one night over beers iirc and you half thought about it.

They come here anyway, why not localise them and see how they do when they have to make their points rationaly and not under their own biased moderation. Of course, the same has to be said for the posters that jump down their throats without thinking.

Maybe it will be a pointless exercise, but if we manage to reach just one person with reasoned, rational discussion and make them think about their views, then the forum is worthwhile.

I think I would stop posting on boards if that idea went through. I agree with the point you're making and it might even work, but I've read StormFront, and its by far to most depressing, unsettling, and disturbing thing I've ever come accross on the net. In the back of my head I know these people exist, but you get through the day be segmenting and ignoring that ****e. Having a forum on boards where the level of pure hate, and lets be honest, evil, is allowed to gain an audience, would just be too far to ignore.

WindSock

Boards is my daily haven from the real world of thoughtless scumbags.

hullaballoo

DeVore wrote:

I would love to see a real-world version of Feedback where we could complain about the laws of the land ...

DeV.

Slightly off-topic; but would Legal Discussion and Politics fit the bill there?

OT: This boils down to the way people perceive different forums on this site. I've always thought that people think of AH as being in the pub with a few mates. As such, they think they can effectively say all the same things they would to their mates.

However, as the bar is open to everyone, and they aren't all your mates, then you have to watch what you say to them. You have to watch what you say even where your not addressing anyone in particular, because here, everyone can hear you. Unfortunately, you even have to watch what you say about people who aren't here now - but might come down for a pint later - because what you've said is available for playback for anyone who wants to listen.

You're in a pub with some mates, a lot of people you don't know, and a potentially infinite number of people who will be down later. Everyone knows your name. Everyone is tuned in to what you're saying. You cannot expect that your racial slurs will be acceptable to anyone except those you know. So what do you do?

On the other hand, it's not such a great idea to get overly-PC either. As such, I think the balance lies in the humour of what you're saying. Just as long as people can come to terms with the fact that things always sound funnier in your head.

WindSock

Boston wrote:

Where all the moderators are Gay, Jewish and Black.

And Women!

GuanYin

Boston wrote:

I think I would stop posting on boards if that idea went through. I agree with the point you're making and it might even work, but I've read StormFront, and its by far to most depressing, unsettling, and disturbing thing I've ever come accross on the net.

Well in fairness, I'm not suggesting we have an actual stormfront forum as per their website. That would be pointless. The reason that forum is so bad is that it's run for biggots, by biggots. Dissenting voices don't get a debate, they get a flamed, abused and threathened.

But what if they did return with debate? Would it be the same site? No, I don't think so. Psychology 101, but in order to make any hate-group successful, you have to eliminate dissenting outside influence. If we create something that encourages dissenting outside influence, then we're immediately doing someone, somewhere some good.

We get stormfront threads here all the time, usually they come in fits and starts and last as long as amp is amused by them. You'd be very surprised how few posts by boards users are glib and pointless or flaming.

In the back of my head I know these people exist, but you get through the day be segmenting and ignoring that ****e. Having a forum on boards where the level of pure hate, and lets be honest, evil, is allowed to gain an audience, would just be too far to ignore.

Thats fair enough for you. Other people aren't so lucky. I pretty much can't ignore them. I've received hate mail and death threats from them when my image and details were available in the public domain in Ireland. But its not just the organisations, it's among the people themselves. Ignorance and intolerance breed on fear and there are alot of people in Ireland who are irrationally threathened by foreigners.

The best way to combat fear is through education. Bring it open for debate, let people see informed debate and discussion, let them form an opinion based on all available information.

Sticking your head in the sand won't stop you being eaten by a wolf.

Boston

Ok, but I don't see how thats much different then current procedure on the humanities or politics forums. As for sticking my head in the sand, maybe, but personally it's better then banging my head against a brick wall, try that one as well. These people exist, they always will, I've no desire to go looking for them.

GuanYin

Boston wrote:

Ok, but I don't see how thats much different then current procedure on the humanities or politics forums. As for sticking my head in the sand, maybe, but personally it's better then banging my head against a brick wall, try that one as well. These people exist, they always will, I've no desire to go looking for them.

I think the problem at the moment is as I described it. The threads last as long as the mods are amused.

Levelling the playing field where these people aren't immediately perceived as the enemy by all would be a good start.

Personally I think if done right such a forum could be worthwhile.

Binomate

To be honest, this idea was only semi clear in my head and I was a little bit distracted when I was starting this thread so my original post was kind of hazy and lacked definition, but I think psi gave a good idea of what I was trying to get at. He said it a lot better than I ever could.

Chucky the tree

psi wrote:

I'm deadly serious about the stormfront forum. We actually talked about this one night over beers iirc and you half thought about it.

They come here anyway, why not localise them and see how they do when they have to make their points rationaly and not under their own biased moderation. Of course, the same has to be said for the posters that jump down their throats without thinking.

Maybe it will be a pointless exercise, but if we manage to reach just one person with reasoned, rational discussion and make them think about their views, then the forum is worthwhile.

This idea gets my full support anyway.

Boston wrote:

I think I would stop posting on boards if that idea went through. .

Boston

Chucky the tree wrote:

This idea gets my full support anyway.

Ah yes, perdictable. Lol FLAMO. LMAO and so on. Never saw that coming. Just who exactly are you? I mean should I know you?

Chucky the tree

Boston wrote:

Ah yes, perdictable. Lol FLAMO. LMAO and so on. Never saw that coming. Just who exactly are you? I mean should I know you?

that sums you up perfectly.

flogen

psi wrote:

I think the problem at the moment is as I described it. The threads last as long as the mods are amused.

Levelling the playing field where these people aren't immediately perceived as the enemy by all would be a good start.

Personally I think if done right such a forum could be worthwhile.

That's fair enough, but I don't think a new forum is needed for this - the mods of fora like Politics and Humanities seem, for the most part, even-handed enough to not tolerate baseless abuse and attacks no matter who they're coming from and if they aren't then that's the issue that needs to be resolved - a new forum isn't the answer.

One other point - I appreciate your aims in this idea, but you're not going to "rehabilitate" Stormfronters. They come here to spread their ideas and ultimately give up because of the lack of support and amount of reasoned and educated responses. They don't change their own minds, no matter what you say, they just go back to their holes and say "boards.ie is fully of pinko liberal fags". Giving people like them their own little space to test out their theories in the real world won't show them the error of their ways, all the forum would be is repetitive entertainment for people who like to see the ignorant being shown up for what they are.

GuanYin

flogen wrote:

That's fair enough, but I don't think a new forum is needed for this - the mods of fora like Politics and Humanities seem, for the most part, even-handed enough to not tolerate baseless abuse and attacks no matter who they're coming from and if they aren't then that's the issue that needs to be resolved - a new forum isn't the answer.

They may be. They may not want the change though, both forums work well as is. I also think that moderation may need to be firm but more flexible than normal forums. In any case, this wasn't my idea. It was one DeVore brought up, albeit tongue in cheek at the time.

One other point - I appreciate your aims in this idea, but you're not going to "rehabilitate" Stormfronters. They come here to spread their ideas and ultimately give up because of the lack of support and amount of reasoned and educated responses. They don't change their own minds, no matter what you say, they just go back to their holes and say "boards.ie is fully of pinko liberal fags". Giving people like them their own little space to test out their theories in the real world won't show them the error of their ways, all the forum would be is repetitive entertainment for people who like to see the ignorant being shown up for what they are.

Did I say anything about rehabilitating Stormfronters? I believe that is an invention of your own. I believe I specifically cited ignorance and intolerance in the general population that can be addressed by offering balanced debate and both sides of the story.

flogen

psi wrote:

They may be. They may not want the change though, both forums work well as is.

'they' as in the moderators of the boards.ie [whatever] forum?

I also think that moderation may need to be firm but more flexible than normal forums.

I think it already is, certainly when you compare Humanities to the likes of AH - Politics rarely gets too many very "controversial" threads, but it's even rarer to see the mods come down hard in these situations, except to clean out personal abuse and trolling etc.

In any case, this wasn't my idea. It was one DeVore brought up, albeit tongue in cheek at the time.

And you brought it up in this thread, albeit tongue in cheek at the time (at least that's how I read this sentence.)

Did I say anything about rehabilitating Stormfronters? I believe that is an invention of your own.

In fairness, you didn't, that was an invention of my own which I probably conjured up whilst trying to figure out the point to your proposal.

You said earlier:

They come here anyway, why not localise them and see how they do when they have to make their points rationaly and not under their own biased moderation. Of course, the same has to be said for the posters that jump down their throats without thinking.

And as far as I'm concerned the various fora that already exist provide that service as it is. They're free to make their points rationally without biased moderation and posters that jump down their throats without thinking are dealt with accordingly.

You then said:

Maybe it will be a pointless exercise, but if we manage to reach just one person with reasoned, rational discussion and make them think about their views, then the forum is worthwhile.

Which again is something that can be (and probably is already) achieved through the existing fora.

I believe I specifically cited ignorance and intolerance in the general population that can be addressed by offering balanced debate and both sides of the story.

You did and there's nothing in the moderation of any boards.ie forum that doesn't already offer that. If there is the moderators should be set straight, regardless of their own wishes to maintain the status quo.