Irish banking - why so antiquated ?

parsi

Thinking about the banks over the weekend (probably prompted by BOI's enormous profits) and wondering :

1. Why do they have such customer unfriendly hours - I mean 10-4 , M-F is poor. Why not Saturday opening ?
2. Why don't they update their IT systems so that you can do swipe lodgements to your credit card ?
3. If you lodge a non-Euro cheque at a branch that's not your own why do they have to send it to your home branch ?
4. With all their iT systems why does it take multiple days to transfer money to non-Irish accounts ?
5. Why do the tellers always seem to be short on the ground during peak-times - there's nothing worse than being in a queue and seeing empty positions ?
6. Why does competency seem to vary branch by branch - there are so many anecdotal tales of sheer inability to setup direct debits, standing orders.
7. Why do banks treat their customers like rubbish ?
8. Why can't their IT systems cope with changing account types from one to another (looking at AIB here) ?

dudara

IT systems aren't easy to upgrade and maintain, especially secure systems. Having said that though, the Irish banks do appear quite antiquated.

My biggest gripes are two that you mentioned above. The limited opening hours and the lack of tellers at peak times. I've had to go to the bank a few times lately at lunch and its been a nightmare. The UCC college branch of BofI used to have extended opening hours, and would be open for a half-day on Saturday to boot. Why aren't they all like that?

mike65

The teller/hours policy is just that - policy. The banks DO NOT WANT TO SEE YOU!

They'd prefer it if you only ever darkened thier ATMs.

Mike.

2funki4wheelz

I think 6 is due to the lack of time most places spend on training (banks not being the only culprit here). Staff turnover everywhere is high, and if you're being trained in a branch you're more than likely picking up all the bad habits that went before you from the half-trained people that are training you.

Sangre

Most Irish banks' central servers still run on COBOL, a code dating from 1959.

Zaph

To be fair, it's not just Irish banks. I work for the Irish branch of a large international bank, and our systems also ran on COBOL until a few years ago. Switching over was absolute hell.

As for the opening hours, have a word with the IBOA about that, not the banks. The union demands for agreeing to longer opening hours would be way more than the banks would be willing to pay. And remember, when a branch closes at 4pm the staff don't go home at that time, they have to balance the cash, process lodgements, etc. Knowing people who have worked in branches, this can take quite a while, especially if there's some sort of problem.

daveirl

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cold_filter

Also if you transfer money from BOI to AIB the reason it takes so long to get there is that the sender bank is playing around with your money in the international markets, it gets interest on it i.e. makes a profit the longer it doesnt arrive in the destination bank account

parsi

daveirl wrote:

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They couldn't change mine. It was because it was an old account/a student account/a small business account/ had overdraft facilities - they never could explain exactly which reason other than the computer says no.

It happened to others as well.

stepbar

parsi wrote:

Thinking about the banks over the weekend (probably prompted by BOI's enormous profits) and wondering :

1. Why do they have such customer unfriendly hours - I mean 10-4 , M-F is poor. Why not Saturday opening?

Unions, too costly for banks, the queue would be out the door, some staff would never get home etc etc. Just because the bank has short opening hours it doesnt mean that they're dossing

2. Why don't they update their IT systems so that you can do swipe lodgements to your credit card?

Its possible, every bank has a sundry credit card a/c. We debit your a/c and credit this a/c. The credit card people debit this account and apply it to the c/c. As long as you have the correct c/c number as a reference its fine. However for auditing purposes you need a proper paper trail.

3. If you lodge a non-Euro cheque at a branch that's not your own why do they have to send it to your home branch?

For verification / risk purposes. Your home branch takes the currency risk. The branch books a rate and clears the cheque against that rate. If the cheque bounces, the branch could be out money.

4. With all their iT systems why does it take multiple days to transfer money to non-Irish accounts?

You have to pay for urgent transfers.

5. Why do the tellers always seem to be short on the ground during peak-times - there's nothing worse than being in a queue and seeing empty positions ?

Thats a matter for management on a branch by branch basis to organise. Staff can be out sick and its not always possible to have people cover. Not enough experienced staff can be a problem too.

6. Why does competency seem to vary branch by branch - there are so many anecdotal tales of sheer inability to setup direct debits, standing orders?

Depends on the experience of staff. S/O's and D/D's are usually sent centrally to be entered up because in many big branches they dont have the time to do it. Because of the volume of requests its inevitable that some items can get lost or mislaid

7. Why do banks treat their customers like rubbish ?

You would need to elaborate further on this. As a customer of 3 different banks I would have to disagree.

8. Why can't their IT systems cope with changing account types from one to another (looking at AIB here)?

Dont know, however I changed my AIB Student Plus a/c to a Graduate a/c without any probs. Has an O/D as well.

.

jaceq

For me Irish banks are taking a piss, not being open on saturdays is joke.
That is one of the reasons why am I switching to halifax, they are open at least 3 hours on saturdays.

parsi

So:

1. No flexible opening hours because it would affect the poor staff.
2. No real reason why they can't bring back swipe lodgements then eh ?
3. Verification / risk purposes - sounds vaguely like a "health n safety" type excuse,
4. Its electronic transfer - it can be done in seconds - doesn't need "special handling",
5. Back down to poor management of staff again...
6. Ditto.
7. YMMV - edit: rubbish = long queues, unhelpful opening hours etc.
8. Don't know either.

So the upshot seems to be that the Unions are holding back managements attempt to provide better customer service more suited to the modern life.

smashey

Don't forget cheques taking four days to clear. WTF? In Singapore, if you lodge a cheque, it clears after 2.00pm the following day.

Sangre

The bottom line is, the banks are making huge money so there is actually no reason to change anything.

BobbyD10

The bottom line for banks is Profit....!!!!
The balance sheet needs to show an increase from the previous year...!!!!
The shareholders demand it...!!!
It's all about money, money and more money.. they may have to improve over time as the market tightens and profits slow...

Kali

smashey wrote:

Don't forget cheques taking four days to clear. WTF? In Singapore, if you lodge a cheque, it clears after 2.00pm the following day.

I'm on my third week waiting for a sterling cheque to clear. Still I forgive Irish banks when it comes to fees, having recently been charged 30 pound sterling for two bank drafts.

Sangre

Ireland is actually excellent for bank fees compared to the US and Uk who are both so extreme as to make you laugh.

Sterling cheques take forever because FX cheques are notorious for bouncing and leaving the bank out of pocket.

Although I know the Financial Regulator (or anther body) now requires banks to take 5 working days to clear a bank draft, due to the amount of fraud on them.

stepbar

parsi wrote:

So:

1. No flexible opening hours because it would affect the poor staff.
Explain to me what transactions do you have on a weekly basis?

2. No real reason why they can't bring back swipe lodgements then eh ?

You are aware of the concept of a paper trail? Banks are regulated and are subject to audits (internally and externally). The penalty for failing an audit is severe. So I'm sorry because I wouldnt like to have anybody loosing their job so I could convenience you or anyone else. Those are the rules and as bankers we have to abide by them.

3. Verification / risk purposes - sounds vaguely like a "health n safety" type excuse.

Call it what you like, every branch is like a subsidiary of the bank. They have their own profit targets to meet and each branch is in competiton with the next. So if they can mitigate risk to another branch, so be it. Anyhow, your cheque will be recieved the next day by your local branch.

4. Its electronic transfer - it can be done in seconds - doesn't need "special handling",

If you want it urgent you pay for it. Your not the only customer making electronic payments.

5. Back down to poor management of staff again...
6. Ditto.

Maybe. As with any company its hard to get and hold on to good staff. Anybody thats good ultimatly moves on to bigger and better things.

7. YMMV - edit: rubbish = long queues, unhelpful opening hours etc.

That why we have internet banking for 80% of what you need to do. I havent set foot in my local bank since 2000. However in that time I've managed to get overdrafts, loans, S/O's / D/D's setup cancelled etc etc. I would question why would would need to come into a bank nowadays except to lodge cash / cheques. And we even have quick lodge facilities for that..


8. Don't know either.

So the upshot seems to be that the Unions are holding back managements attempt to provide better customer service more suited to the modern life.

Way off the mark (and I'm not part of a union either). The Internet is the way of the modern life and its only right that banks continue to focus resources on these services.

.

smashey

stepbar wrote:

Way off the mark (and I'm not part of a union either). The Internet is the way of the modern life and its only right that banks continue to focus resources on these services.
.

The internet allows me to send documents around the world in seconds yet the banks still take four days to clear a cheque. If they are going to use the technology, they should embrace it fully.

stepbar

smashey wrote:

The internet allows me to send documents around the world in seconds yet the banks still take four days to clear a cheque. If they are going to use the technology, they should embrace it fully.

Having come from an IT background (now in mainstream banking) I fully agree. Cheques are like the equivalent of floppy disks in the IT world and yet cheques are still widely used.

parsi

To reply to Stepbar

1. Do I need to do weekly transactions ? Other folk use banks on a weekly basis eg people paid in cash.. not too hard to figure.

2. The paper trail used for swipe lodgements for ordinary bank accounts seems to fulfill all audit requirements so why shouldn't it support CC cards ? And yes I know all about audits - in fact due to audits I obtained refunds on two separate occasions.

3. Grand then. As long as it suits the bank and not the customer. Sure "next day" is fine. I can wait for my money.

4. I'm not the only customer buying books in amazon but they can process my order instantly. I'm not the only person using paypal but they can transfer my money isntantly (and place it in the recipients account at the same time).

5/6 - And if they are all so good where do they go to ... ?

7. internet banking is not for everyone. Remember a lot of folk still have hardly functional internet access. I have immense diffculties transferring my bags of copeprs down the phone line no matter which BroadBand provider I use

8. Internet is part of life but people still have to trundle into their bank to provide documentation for loans, docs for opening accounts, Foreign Exchange, drafts and much much more.

To an outsider it would appear that banks are using the fact that regulation is such a barrier (and a rightful barrier) to new entrants to allow them to just trundle along in the same old same old fashion safe in the knowledge that some upstart company isn't going to turn up.

daveirl

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smashey

daveirl wrote:

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I'm with AIB as well and it doesn't happen here.

daveirl

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smashey

The value of the cheque is shown as credited to my account immediately but I can't take the money until the cheque clears. Balance and available balance.

daveirl

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Sangre

smashey wrote:

The internet allows me to send documents around the world in seconds yet the banks still take four days to clear a cheque. If they are going to use the technology, they should embrace it fully.

Not sure the application here but banks hands are tied by many regulations, including money laundering and fraud legislation. This undoubtably affects a banks ability to do international transfers.

smashey

I was just using the "document around the world" as an example of the technology available. I only ever lodge cheques drawn on Irish banks.

parsi

daveirl wrote:

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IIRC they'll let you take it out but you're charged interest on it as it's an "uncleared item" or something like that.

pow wow

When I worked for a bank here they would auto clear salary cheques (you could just say it was a salary cheque as very often salary cheques aren't business cheques anyway) and cheques drawn on their own branch from another account.

I bank in both England and America (America is almost as bad but they did refund me $128 of overdraft charges when I put on my sad face) and find in England the banks are much more friendly and recognise that there is some competition in the market so make some efforts to keep your custom. As an example of that I had a ruck with my bank in England, wasn't happy with their response and have now moved all my business from them to someone else. Maybe with all these newcomers and better offers on the Irish market things will change.

stepbar

I tell you what Parsi,

Here's the names of the CEO's of the Irish banks known to me

AIB - Eugene Sheehy
Anglo - David Drumm
BOI - Brian Goggin
IL&P - Denis Casey
NIB - Andrew Healy
Halifax - Mark Duffy
Rabodirect - Greg McAweeney

Write to them and tell us how you get on.

And if you get no joy write to the financial regulator. Here's the address

Mary O'Dea
Financial Regulator
P.O. Box 9138
College Green
Dublin 2.

Sangre

ellscurr wrote:

When I worked for a bank here they would auto clear salary cheques (you could just say it was a salary cheque as very often salary cheques aren't business cheques anyway) and cheques drawn on their own branch from another account.

Most tellers will (and should) check the account history to see if the cheque has been lodged a few times before without any problems.

pow wow

Sangre wrote:

Most tellers will (and should) check the account history to see if the cheque has been lodged a few times before without any problems.

We were never told/trained to do that. I won't mention which bank I worked for lol.

sheepshagger

Banks arn't interested in spending money upgrading their systems. . .they also are not interested in allowing competition in the Current account market. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) was the first bank to get access to the clearing system for YEARS. . .why was this??? Because they protect their own.

As for the Financial Regulator. . .don't get me started. . .they are a pack of lazy, backward, out of touch, fuddy duddies. . .jobs for life with flexi hours. . .with no idea how a modern bank should be run.

If I had my way I'd blow up the ugly building on Dame Street with all the usless fockers inside it. . .. (Rant over, apologies. . .I work for a bank and they are unbelivably bad)

McSpud

The simple answer to everything wrong in Irish Banks is the fact AIB & BOI have massive market share.

Its no surprise free banking, tracker mortgages, better savings accounts have been brought in by AIB & BOI since the smaller operators have challenged them. Do we all have a duty to move away from AIB/BOI to create a better market?

Sonnenblumen

smashey wrote:

Don't forget cheques taking four days to clear. WTF? In Singapore, if you lodge a cheque, it clears after 2.00pm the following day.

and Singapore also has huge numbers of migrant Indian workers living in destitute squalor within a 2 mile of city centre. I'd doubt if any of them has ever handled a cheque!

Sonnenblumen

sheepshagger wrote:

Banks arn't interested in spending money upgrading their systems. . .they also are not interested in allowing competition in the Current account market. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) was the first bank to get access to the clearing system for YEARS. . .why was this??? Because they protect their own.

As for the Financial Regulator. . .don't get me started. . .they are a pack of lazy, backward, out of touch, fuddy duddies. . .jobs for life with flexi hours. . .with no idea how a modern bank should be run.


If I had my way I'd blow up the ugly building on Dame Street with all the usless fockers inside it. . .. (Rant over, apologies. . .I work for a bank and they are unbelivably bad)

What? A self confessed prisoner!!

parsi

stepbar wrote:

I tell you what Parsi,

Here's the names of the CEO's of the Irish banks known to me

AIB - Eugene Sheehy
Anglo - David Drumm
BOI - Brian Goggin
IL&P - Denis Casey
NIB - Andrew Healy
Halifax - Mark Duffy
Rabodirect - Greg McAweeney

Write to them and tell us how you get on.

And if you get no joy write to the financial regulator. Here's the address

Mary O'Dea
Financial Regulator
P.O. Box 9138
College Green
Dublin 2.

Maybe it would be better to call them in front of a Dail Committee and ask them to explain themselves ?

smashey

Sonnenblumen wrote:

and Singapore also has huge numbers of migrant Indian workers living in destitute squalor within a 2 mile of city centre. I'd doubt if any of them has ever handled a cheque!

What has this got to do with the time needed for a cheque to clear?

stepbar

parsi wrote:

Maybe it would be better to call them in front of a Dail Committee and ask them to explain themselves ?

Maybe it might be better for YOU to put YOUR gripes down on paper and copy each CEO. Maybe you could then present your findings here. I have no gripes with the Irish banking system (even before I started working in a bank). Bitching on boards won't get you too far.

Finally I will refer you to what Sean Fitzpatrick, Chairman of Anglo, said about regulation during the week - http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0621/odce.html

Sangre

parsi wrote:

Maybe it would be better to call them in front of a Dail Committee and ask them to explain themselves ?

Hopefully we can finally get a list of all the laws they've broken as well.

stepbar

Sangre wrote:

Hopefully we can finally get a list of all the laws they've broken as well.

Yeah, I'd love to see that list too.....

parsi

stepbar wrote:

Maybe it might be better for YOU to put YOUR gripes down on paper and copy each CEO. Maybe you could then present your findings here. I have no gripes with the Irish banking system (even before I started working in a bank). Bitching on boards won't get you too far.

Strange how my gripes are actually similar to so many others gripes.
Individual gripes get ignored (unless you're CJ Haughey and complaining to
AIB) but group gripes get a better hearing.

Finally I will refer you to what Sean Fitzpatrick, Chairman of Anglo, said about regulation during the week - http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0621/odce.html

Gee Fitzies statement about regulation was so surprising - "we make money
so you should leave us alone". Maybe an annual proof of innocence statement
would be worthwhile - AIB could state that they didn't rip-off anyone on
exchange rates or wrongly calculate interest, the BOI could confirm that none of their bosses looked at
dodgy sites, NIB could confirm that they no longer promote tax evasion or wrongly calculate interest (to their benefit)...

stepbar

parsi wrote:

Strange how my gripes are actually similar to so many others gripes.
Individual gripes get ignored (unless you're CJ Haughey and complaining to
AIB) but group gripes get a better hearing.

We'll then you should take your gripes to the Financial Regulator so?

Gee Fitzies statement about regulation was so surprising - "we make money
so you should leave us alone". Maybe an annual proof of innocence statement
would be worthwhile - AIB could state that they didn't rip-off anyone on
exchange rates or wrongly calculate interest, the BOI could confirm that none of their bosses looked at
dodgy sites <Eh, what has this got to do with anything?> , NIB could confirm that they no longer promote tax evasion or wrongly calculate interest (to their benefit)...

Maybe its time to close this thread mods? because this is getting ridiculus....

Parsi, If you have nothing of real substance to add, I would say nothing at all.

parsi

Can't take criticism ? A few people have mentioned their gripes on this board and if you generally look through postings you will find that there are a goodly number of people who have encountered issues with the banks.

Many of these issues are small fry to the banks (and the regulator) but add up to a sense of frustration (at best) and distrust (at worse). The banks are a monolithic cartel and smartass answers like "write to the CEO" only serve to perpetuate the image of them as being organisations that frankly don't give a damn and frankly don't care who knows it.

At least Ryanair screw you royally but give you a cheap flight

stepbar

parsi wrote:

Can't take criticism ? A few people have mentioned their gripes on this board and if you generally look through postings you will find that there are a goodly number of people who have encountered issues with the banks.

Many of these issues are small fry to the banks (and the regulator) but add up to a sense of frustration (at best) and distrust (at worse). The banks are a monolithic cartel and smartass answers like "write to the CEO" only serve to perpetuate the image of them as being organisations that frankly don't give a damn and frankly don't care who knows it.

At least Ryanair screw you royally but give you a cheap flight

And exactly what do you want from a bank? Free money? You come on here and spout a load of crap that has no real relivance to anything. And yet you give no specific details of any problems that you've encountered or any details of the transactions that you need to do regularly. All banks give you internet banking of one shape or form and you still are complaining. And as well as that we provide the customer with quick lodge facilities. You can even apply for a loan / mortgage etc over the phone - in most cases the whole process can be done without you having to come into the bank. Banks are falling over backwards to serve customers.

TBH If that's the best argument you can come up with, I'll just give up :rolleyes:

BuffyBot

I'd suggest both sides calm it down or the thread will get locked

stepbar

I agree. I suggested it a few posts earlier. Parsi seems to have a chip on his shoulder.

parsi

stepbar wrote:

I agree. I suggested it a few posts earlier. Parsi seems to have a chip on his shoulder.

I have been overcharged for Credit Card interest by AIB.

I have been overcharged for car loan interest by NIB (this independent of the Inspectors report).

All of these overchargings which were notified years after the violations with no actual impact on bank staff themselves.

Like other posters I have identified the shortcomings of the banks in relation to customer service and indeed general probity.

I don't think that constitutes a chip. It might be something that a dedicated banker mightn't like to hear but it's rooted in verifiable fact and not hearsay.

But anyway it's almost like arguing with an Apple fanboy... :rolleyes: so I suggest that the thread grind to a graceful halt until the next time someone runs into an issue with their bank.

dotsman

parsi wrote:

At least Ryanair screw you royally but give you a cheap flight

These days, personal banking is free, so what are you expecting exactly? Over your life (I have no idea how old you are), how much profit do you think your bank has really made from you? The only profitable customers are those who borrow large sums of money over long terms (multiple mortgages, business loans etc). As regards payment systems, the only time has full control is when all parties in the transaction are within the same bank. AIB (probably most banks, I'm really only familiar with AIB) have instant transfers between AIB customers. And the suggestions of a cartel must be a joke!!! The banking sector is probably the only sector in Ireland where there is any real competition. Hence why banking is so cheap in Ireland (compared to other Western countries)

stepbar

parsi wrote:

I have been overcharged for Credit Card interest by AIB.

I have been overcharged for car loan interest by NIB (this independent of the Inspectors report).

All of these overchargings which were notified years after the violations with no actual impact on bank staff themselves.

Like other posters I have identified the shortcomings of the banks in relation to customer service and indeed general probity.

I don't think that constitutes a chip. It might be something that a dedicated banker mightn't like to hear but it's rooted in verifiable fact and not hearsay.

Ah, 40 odd posts later :rolleyes: Your argument might have had more credibility had you have mentioned this earlier. So let me ask, how much are we talking about here? 50, 500 eur??? . In fairness, I say the amounts involved were pittance (seeing that you failed to mention any figures). Anyhow, you got your money back so what is the problem? In fairness, the banks are not the only ones who get it wrong when it comes to overcharging and yet the banks get all the headlines.

TBH, I think you have a real chip on your shoulder (you only have to look at the BOI comment above :rolleyes:); maybe its time to lose the attidute towards the banks.