Greens say no

Dave!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0608/election.html

The Greens and FF have failed to reach an agreement

They haven't actually said no,they've concluded negotiations without agreement and are open to a further approach.

So given that they need conference approval for to support Kenny aswell,this means that they either vote no to both taoiseach nominee's next thursday or they abstain.

In theory Ahern should be elected if he has the votes of the pd's,flynn and healey rae plus the casting vote of the existing ceann comhairle.
It's precedent that he votes with the government.

However if SF abstain or vote for Ahern,he will also be elected.

mike65

Hmmmm, Labour to "do the right thing for the nation" moment coming up?

Minority government?

FF+PD+Indys=Government still.

Mike.

SeanW

I was watching on the news that the talks collapsed. Much as I had expected - anyone who really expected the party of environmentalists to go into business with the party of gombeen men and developers puppets wasn't thinking straight.

Some of the key stumbling issues for the Greens? Planning, and the quality of housing. As well as backhanders. Fianna Fail's record on planning and ethics speaks for itself.

UrbanFox

Are we going to face the typical Irish political solution to the present impasse ? i.e. go out in a few weeks and vote again until we get it right ???

Colonel Sanders

the greens showing integrity, sticking to their guns and not sacrificing their ideals to form a government for the sake of being in government is very refreshing.

Hats off to Trever Sargant and co

redspider

Colonel Sanders wrote:

the greens showing integrity, sticking to their guns and not sacrificing their ideals to form a government for the sake of being in government is very refreshing. Hats off to Trever Sargant and co

I think they will win plaudits (and future votes?) for sticking to their principles and their core policies. FF didnt give much I would say, not that they were likely to, and the list of points of non-agreement is long and wide-ranging across most of government functions really.

> Hmmmm, Labour to "do the right thing for the nation" moment coming up?
> Minority government?
> FF+PD+Indys=Government still.

I think the latter. Labour dont "need" to do the right thing to form a government as I think they would be okay with having another election. I think FG are likewise as they feel they are close. And the Green's too dont care.

The FF+PD+(3 or 4x Ind) would/could make a Government 83 or 84, but for how long and how stable is anyone's guess. Ironically, if that was FF's preference, they should be able to form it relatively quickly. I can forsee some last minute high jinks in the negitiations up until the Dail sitting date, which is Thu 14th I understand.

Still no government, and the chance of another election is still there ....

Redspider

mike65

The fact that FF/PD/Indys would be so tight might be what keeps the whole shebang going for 4-5 years. Of course one can't rule out the (un)expected death.

Mike.

Jonny Arson

100% correct decision by the Greens. I'm relieved for them in one sense. Even if FF agreed to give way on the sticking points I would have been certain the proposed coalition it would have been doomed to fail after 2 years (struggling economy, failed promises on energy, a certain tribunal etc.) and a small party like the Greens would struggle to recover. If the Greens hang in there I can see a Rainbow coalition easily winning the next election.

Jackie laughlin

What exactly are these Green "principles"? I can't find a principle in any of the news reports. Sure, there are differences but none involve principles.

joecoote

An Irish party sticking to its core principals and refusing power for power's sake is, indeed, refreshing. However, have the Greens just set the stage to enter into government at a later date? Is this just a negotiating ploy to tell the public we have principals but we'll compromise some principles when its in the national interest - i.e. hung Dáil?

CerebralCortex

UrbanFox wrote:

Are we going to face the typical Irish political solution to the present impasse ? i.e. go out in a few weeks and vote again until we get it right ???

We didn't all get to vote the last time.

Akrasia

It's funny the way the media was fawining over Ahern mid week saying he was such an expert negotiator and how he was building an indestructible coalition with plans a b c d and e just to have loads of options.... and now it looks as though he'll be left with the shakiest of coalitions, having to rely on Lowry the corrupt (who's also currently in front of the moriarty tribunal) and Fynn the bankrupt.

Of course, Labour are still pleading to be let in, and they would provide a rock solid government platform, But Ahern and FF are too power hungry and only want to deal with weak partners who they can exert a lot of pressure over

bk

Akrasia wrote:

It's funny the way the media was fawining over Ahern mid week saying he was such an expert negotiator and how he was building an indestructible coalition with plans a b c d and e just to have loads of options.... and now it looks as though he'll be left with the shakiest of coalitions, having to rely on Lowry the corrupt (who's also currently in front of the moriarty tribunal) and Fynn the bankrupt.

Or you could look at it in another way, Ahern always said that his preferred option was PDs + inds. But if he didn't at least negotiate with the greens, he would be accused of not trying to form a more stable government.

Now he can go and do what he originally wanted and say it was all the greens fault.

bk

Personally I believe this shows an incredible immaturity on the greens part.

The greens say that the environment is the number one issue facing us and that if we don't do something about it immediately that we face serious problems.

Yet when given the opportunity to enter government and actually achieve many of their environmental policies, they refuse because they won't compromise their ideals and now they aren't going to get any of their policies implemented.

All politics is compromise and it is better to be in government and get some of your policies implemented and fight for the others,then be in opposition and get nothing done.

The ironic thing is that the Greens would have had to compromise in a FG/Labour government also, perhaps to an even greater degree then with FF.

Personally I think negotiations broke down, not because of differences on environmental policies, but rather the left wing non environmental policies of the party (like opposition to hospital co-location) and their general dislike of FF.

If true then it would answer a long felt believe I've had that the greens aren't really a wide based environmental party, but rather just a bunch of left wingers who use the environment to get votes. This would be very disappointing for many (probably most) of the voters who voted based on their environmental policies, not their left wing policies.

luckat

Gossip: I've heard that the sticking-points are:

* Shannon

* Tara

* Corporate donations

AidoCQS

I bet it was the co-location issue that they stuck on. Michael Moore's movie Sicko is on route and thats going to put this issue front and center, the Greens wont want to look like they have agreed to it...

Cmmmooonnn Michael (Paddy from way back) Moore

Bottle_of_Smoke

luckat wrote:

Gossip: I've heard that the sticking-points are:

* Shannon

* Tara

* Corporate donations

anything to back this up. The Shannon one is bollocks because there's no way Fine Gael would have pulled out.

luckat

Oh yes, co-location too, forgot about that.

The fact of how Fine Gael might or might not behave on Shannon surely has no relation to negotiations with Fianna Fail, though, Bottle_of_Smoke?

murphaph

redspider wrote:

I think they will win plaudits (and future votes?) for sticking to their principles and their core policies.

Yup, one just has to look at what happened to the PDs to see that saddling up with FF for the sake of being in govt is bad politics. Still amazing how people take out their agression against FF on the PDs, but ho-hum, they made their bed. It is a shame that the greens don't look like getting concessions (common sense planning and development stuff that will only harm FoFFers) from FF.

luckat

luckat wrote:

The fact of how Fine Gael might or might not behave on Shannon surely has no relation to negotiations with Fianna Fail, though, Bottle_of_Smoke?

Of course it would because Brian Cowen would just laugh out loud when it was suggested and ask if they had checked the alternative taoiseachs position on it.

luckat

Tristrame wrote:

Of course it would because Brian Cowen would just laugh out loud when it was suggested and ask if they had checked the alternative taoiseachs position on it.

The Greens are rigorously upright, obviously, rather than grabby for power no matter what.

Bottle_of_Smoke

luckat wrote:

Oh yes, co-location too, forgot about that.

The fact of how Fine Gael might or might not behave on Shannon surely has no relation to negotiations with Fianna Fail, though, Bottle_of_Smoke?

Well the greens never signed the pledge to say they wouldn't support a government that allowed US Air Force through Shannon, so obviously it's not written in stone for them. The Greens know that no other party other than perhaps Sinn Fein would pull out of the US Shannon deal, so what's the point in holding it against FF?

luckat

Bottle_of_Smoke, why would no other party pull of of the US 'rendition' and troop flights?

Húrin

bk wrote:

Personally I believe this shows an incredible immaturity on the greens part.

You can't be sure of that, you weren't in the negotiating room. How do you know FF weren't being immature? Perhaps they conceded on nothing and expected Green support for it?

bk wrote:

Yet when given the opportunity to enter government and actually achieve many of their environmental policies, they refuse because they won't compromise their ideals and now they aren't going to get any of their policies implemented.

All politics is compromise and it is better to be in government and get some of your policies implemented and fight for the others,then be in opposition and get nothing done.

I agree. I was hoping for a coalition agreement with FF.

bk wrote:

Personally I think negotiations broke down, not because of differences on environmental policies, but rather the left wing non environmental policies of the party (like opposition to hospital co-location) and their general dislike of FF.

Neither you nor I was in the negotiating room, how can you speak out of anything other than ignorance?

bk wrote:

If true then it would answer a long felt believe I've had that the greens aren't really a wide based environmental party, but rather just a bunch of left wingers who use the environment to get votes.

This is certainly not true. I'm a member of the Green party and I am not a socialist. No other member I have ever spoken to is a socialist either.

If the Greens are just about being left wing, their strategy is stupid. People who are just generally leftist would do better with the Labour party.

Jackie laughlin

Hurin,
I can't get a straight answer elsewhere. As a member of the Green Party, would you tell me what is your position on air travel? I realise that the party is too populist to utter a word on this in public. I no longer believe that the Green Party is serious about man-made global warming.

gbh

I think the Greens are moderating their policies to go into government...that is what you have to do to make a coalition work...

However, I think the right thing would be for the Greens not be to go into government while the current leadership of FF exists.

FF need a clean break from the party of the past and the current leadership is too linked to that past. IT is also perceived as a party who does business with builders and developers and the Greens would also be tainted with this image I think.

luckat

New gossip: I'm now hearing that it was health and education that were the sticking points...

[Jackass]

That's Bertie farily screwed so...Greens no longer an option, Labour were never an option, SF never an option, PD's barely count as an option anymore, Indo's have to be the option.

This will be the most fragile government possibly in the history of the state. I give it 18 months max.

mickd

The Mullingar accord will come to an end next Thursday when Labour support Kenny for taoiseach, he doesn't get elected. Labout are free to talk to whoever they like. Unless Rabbitte continues to sulk like a child beacuse the country did not believe it could better with Labour, which was the best slogan of all the parties. The sight of Pat gettin ratty anytime the pressure comes on is enough to put any voter off.

Nick

Nick wrote:

That's Bertie farily screwed so...Greens no longer an option, Labour were never an option, SF never an option, PD's barely count as an option anymore, Indo's have to be the option.

This will be the most fragile government possibly in the history of the state. I give it 18 months max.

I understand from this mornings papers that Finian has been promised millions in projects for his constituency and Lowry has also been won over with similar packages.
Both of them get to announce them.
So I wouldnt count my anti FF chickens yet if I were you.

bk

H&#250 wrote: »

You can't be sure of that, you weren't in the negotiating room. How do you know FF weren't being immature? Perhaps they conceded on nothing and expected Green support for it?

True, but from all of the rumors, the sticking points weren't the environmental ones, but ones based on their leftist leanings.

Opposition to hospital co-location, nothing to do with the environment, everything to do with their leftist leanings.

Opposition to corporate donations, nothing to do with the environment, everything to do with their leftist leanings.

etc, etc.

For person who is a member of the green party, you seem to know little about their political position and policies.

UrbanFox

CerebralCortex wrote:

We didn't all get to vote the last time.

Spot on correct.

Whose fault was that however ???

Voipjunkie

bk wrote:

True, but from all of the rumors, the sticking points weren't the environmental ones, but ones based on their leftist leanings.

Opposition to hospital co-location, nothing to do with the environment, everything to do with their leftist leanings..

Absolute tripe the party can not just be about the environment and forget everything else it is a party about quality of life and they believe that co location will detrimentally affect peoples quality of life

bk wrote:

Opposition to corporate donations, nothing to do with the environment, everything to do with their leftist leanings.

.

Again complete balderdash if political parties are in hock to large corporations and these same corporations are polluting the environment then there may be a little conflict of interest to say the least. Do you think we are ever going to get proper building regulations with regard to insulation etc while FF are taking big donations from the builders in the tent at the Galway races or maybe it is just coincidence that we are still using hollow blocks in house construction.





The problem you have is that you want to box the Green Party in and tell them they can only have views on greenhouse gases and carbon emmissions and that everything else should be left to those that know better

Any political party that strives for office in this state has to have views and policies across the spectrum not just a group of single issue parties besides which the green party stood on all these issues in the election they would be letting down the people who voted for them if they were to prop up a FF government on the basis of carbon emmissions and that is all.

Jackie laughlin

Voipjunkie,
You are touching on a basic question often asked of Greens: "Are you a socialist green or a liberal green?"

My particular gripe with the Irish Green Party is that they are clearly not serious about man-made global warming; they have nothing to say on air travel.

Dirk Gently

bk wrote:

Opposition to corporate donations, nothing to do with the environment, everything to do with their leftist leanings.

It's true that the lefties shout loudest about this, mostly because they don't get corporate donations anyway, but would the issue not be more about transparency and accountability rather than left / right. Surely eliminating a conflict of interests is not a left / right thing……………or is it?

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voipjunkie,
You are touching on a basic question often asked of Greens: "Are you a socialist green or a liberal green?"

My particular gripe with the Irish Green Party is that they are clearly not serious about man-made global warming; they have nothing to say on air travel.

Sounds more like the are you a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew the Greens have set out their own policies and people have elected and voted for them based on those policies and they include policies on Healthcare and education and justice etc. It seems that some people have not looked at the Green policies on these issues and are content to view them as one dimensional only concerned with C02 or the ozone layer.

CerebralCortex

UrbanFox wrote:

Spot on correct.

Whose fault was that however ???

Not mine. I voted.