IT Grads question: Work & Salary

MrSquishSquash

Hi everyone, I'm entering my final year of a CS degree in October. I'm just looking to hear what ( other Boards members who were IT graduates or from a similar field ) experienced in their first job? Main interests being the work involved( development or tech support)? which company? and the starting salary?

All feedback is appreciated, cheers!

Where are you doing the degree?

hamsterboy

Hi MrSquishSquash
Best of luck with the course.
I took me two years to find an I.T. job so you might be luckier than me, but prepare to take a crappy job (as I did) to survive while you're looking

damnyanks

Hit the milkrounds which open up in September www.milkround.co.uk

MrSquishSquash

coolsmileygirl wrote:

Where are you doing the degree?

UCC.

pwd

contract in ennis - got it in spetember of graduation year. contract was about 3 months.
reviewed srs, wrote test strategy and test cases and completed testing of a piece of software in accordance with ISO standards.
salary: 1700 a month in 2002.
I had >1 year's experience in testing and development prior to graduation though thanks to placement and deferral.
2002 was a bad year to graduate an IT course.

cold_filter

Got lucky and got a junior PM job with a large mobile company, as i was working there at the weekend. Wages were fantastic as i was paid by the hour earned 2K a week for about 4 weeks 1600 for about 5 weeks and an average of about 1K a week for 4 months.
Project finished and there wasnt the opportunity to stay on, so now doing mediation engineering, pay is not great but only doing it 6 months, but made enough money doing the PM work to keep me going

pwd

cold_filter wrote:

Got lucky and got a junior PM job with a large mobile company, as i was working there at the weekend. Wages were fantastic as i was paid by the hour earned 2K a week for about 4 weeks 1600 for about 5 weeks and an average of about 1K a week for 4 months.
Project finished and there wasnt the opportunity to stay on, so now doing mediation engineering, pay is not great but only doing it 6 months, but made enough money doing the PM work to keep me going

wow. how did you manage that? It's unprecedented to get a project management job straight of college

giveth

MrSquishSquash wrote:

Hi everyone, I'm entering my final year of a CS degree in October. I'm just looking to hear what ( other Boards members who were IT graduates or from a similar field ) experienced in their first job? Main interests being the work involved( development or tech support)? which company? and the starting salary?

All feedback is appreciated, cheers!

Graduated Comp Sci in UCC (same as yourself?) in 2004. Got a development job that summer in a multinational in a town in the midlands starting at €25k. Was testing for a bit, then into deisign. Salary reviewed every year and has increased by about a third, so its not too bad especially as its cheap to live here compared to Dublin.

cold_filter

pwd wrote:

wow. how did you manage that? It's unprecedented to get a project management job straight of college

Basically i had pestered the call centre manager for a year and a half for something more challenging. This role came up and she put my name forward i got it and i must say i worked with a great bunch of people the work was hard but a great experience for me and great for the CV. and i made a shed load of money.

The problem is most companies think i am too inexperienced for a PM job, even a junior PM they want at least a years experience and i'mt oo expereince/technical for a project co-ordinator role. So i'm stuck doing mediation until i get prince 2 certified and hopefully i can get some PM experience in my current role

foxyboxer

2002 was a bad year to graduate an IT course.



Tell me about It!!!!!!

damnyanks

pwd wrote:

wow. how did you manage that? It's unprecedented to get a project management job straight of college

I did it as my work placement playing around with all sorts of funny money. It's difficult but not impossible.

Stark

Graduated in 2005 with Bsc. €27.5k starting salary (current graduate starting salary for the company is €29k). Been in development since I started.

Timmy_d

Lucky bunch hope 2009 is a good year!:D

Raskolnikov

Even in development roles, jobs seem fairly reasonable to find for graduates. The only problem is that salaries seem to vary wildly.

Oh, make sure you get a 2H1 minimum for your overall degree. 90% of employers offering decent jobs won't look at you otherwise.

Stark

Raskolnikov wrote:

Oh, make sure you get a 2H1 minimum for your overall degree. 90% of employers offering decent jobs won't look at you otherwise.

I'll second this. A 2H1 is essential for decent employment prospects.

damnyanks

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

matrim

If you want to land a dev role, try to get some experience now. Do some projects yourself, stuff like websites, open source. It will all stand to you when looking for a job.

stepbar

hamsterboy wrote:

Hi MrSquishSquash
Best of luck with the course.
I took me two years to find an I.T. job so you might be luckier than me, but prepare to take a crappy job (as I did) to survive while you're looking

Two years? :eek: WTF?

Timmy_d

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

Why would they do such a thing!

jackbhoy

You are definitely in a much better position than grads of 3/4 years ago as the market is improving all the time.

New grads (s/w engineers, operations/networks etc.) at my employer will be starting on min of 28k, in reality most will start on 31/32k, the best ones will be offered circa 33-35k i'd imagine. I've been there 18 months straight out of college, started on decent wage and have had two 8%+ raises and one promotion which also came with a seperate raise.

Every one of the dozen or so in my class that I have kept in touch with have decent jobs with ok money and good experience.

I'd start applying to all the Grad programmes (which open up for application from September onwards)and don't forget to include banks and non-IT companies as many of these have huge IT functions and take on grads every year.

easyontheeye

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

thats horse ****! i went to DIT amd i got a job with a "big employer" beating canditates who "avoided IT's and colleges"

nesf

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

Assuming one wants to work for a "big" company of course.

nesf

easyontheeye wrote:

thats horse ****! i went to DIT amd i got a job with a "big employer" beating canditates who "avoided IT's and colleges"

Straight out of college or after a few years work experience? I'm not trying to cut down ITs or colleges, it's just that I've not heard of anyone going straight from an IT into one of the big multinationals at anything over tech support level. Add a few years experience in and it's pretty much an even playing field though, from what I've heard.

There is nothing at all wrong working in the small to medium business sector though. I don't get why people dress up I.T. as only a "multinational" thing.

damnyanks

It's different in IReland as its a small community. If you go abroad its more difficult, especially in the UK as they know about the Universities and grade them but have no idea about the IT's and colleges thus will reject you at the screening process in most cases.

I know this as I had to do screening for a few hours while working at a place , they give you a big list of ratings for universities and what they are good for.

And as Nesf pointed out, thats only if you want to work for a big company which definitley is not the be and end all of things.

jackbhoy

easyontheeye wrote:

thats horse ****! i went to DIT amd i got a job with a "big employer" beating canditates who "avoided IT's and colleges"

I work for a company that have a very competitive and desirable IT grad programme and in my experience they regard ITs very highly, many ITs have more technical/hands on approach in teaching than the big Universities and produce more technically profeccient grads that can jump into programming roles pretty quickly.

Of the dozens of grads in the last few years about half are from ITs and most of others are from DCU and UCC, both of which have well regarded Compauter Apps/BIS courses that have a long association with company in terms of work placement.

I think its complete BS and snobbery on many peoples parts in knocking ITs, I know our HR dept doesn't discriminate against and I know many very strong grads to come out of the ITs.

easyontheeye

nesf wrote:

Straight out of college or after a few years work experience?

yes straight out of college. From speaking to other university canditates during the selection process, I found some to have no common sense. In my experience (as i have worked with grads from both Uni and IT) I believe that in Ireland canditates graduating from non universities seem to perform better in the work environment, now im only basing that on the telecoms/software industry. 2 years out of college and im still in touch with alot of my college mates and many of them are in great positions consultants/developers/engineers/military Cadet training etc. We have often discussed the whole "IT Vs Uni" topic (being biased to the IT lol)

I suppose I would be a "uni basher" and im alittle bitter lol. But thats only because theres too many grads out there thinking because they have DCU or UCD or whatever behind them that they are better than any other canditate.


Go on the underdog

nesf

easyontheeye wrote:

yes straight out of college.

Cool.

easyontheeye wrote:

From speaking to other university canditates during the selection process, I found some to have no common sense. In my experience (as i have worked with grads from both Uni and IT) I believe that in Ireland canditates graduating from non universities seem to perform better in the work environment, now im only basing that on the telecoms/software industry.

In my experience, it's a mixed bag in both groups. That and you're seeing a subset of people who managed to get into your industry rather than judging the two groups as a whole if you know what I mean.

easyontheeye wrote:

2 years out of college and im still in touch with alot of my college mates and many of them are in great positions consultants/developers/engineers/military Cadet training etc. We have often discussed the whole "IT Vs Uni" topic (being biased to the IT lol)

I suppose I would be a "uni basher" and im alittle bitter lol. But thats only because theres too many grads out there thinking because they have DCU or UCD or whatever behind them that they are better than any other canditate.


Go on the underdog

I'm in a position where the courses I've done in UCC don't really have equivalents in any IT, having a pretty even split in my friends between IT grads and uni grads and having mostly worked in areas where college qualifications meant little. I find the whole Uni vs IT thing silly tbh. People aren't defined by where they did their course (in most fields) for that long after they graduate. After ten years in I.T. no one is going to care what your original qualification was, only what you've spent the last ten years doing tbh.

jesus_thats_gre

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

Disagree completely. Was actually discussing this recently and apparently alot of large companies have grave concerns about the ability of some University graduates being incapable to apply what they have studied in the real world and how as IT's and colleges then to do more practical work, their grads tend to get a grasp of things more quickly.

Out of everyone I hung out with when I went to college in DKIT, nearly every single one of them are working for the biggest companies in their sector - both on a national and international level and are earning very good money.

jesus_thats_gre

damnyanks wrote:

It's different in IReland as its a small community. If you go abroad its more difficult, especially in the UK as they know about the Universities and grade them but have no idea about the IT's and colleges thus will reject you at the screening process in most cases.

I know this as I had to do screening for a few hours while working at a place , they give you a big list of ratings for universities and what they are good for.

And as Nesf pointed out, thats only if you want to work for a big company which definitley is not the be and end all of things.

Should have read this.... Ah well...

damnyanks

The thing is - I'm not saying the graduates from IT's and colleges are poor but they just arent held in the same light as graduates from Universities. Compare the DIT and Trinity Comp sci courses for instance, both very different approaches.

The argument of the standard of grad's coming out isn't relevant in most cases as its down to the persons initiative to get the jobs they want and develop their own abilities.

easyontheeye

nesf wrote:

I find the whole Uni vs IT thing silly tbh.

I agree but i still think some uni grads need to wake up, having a degree from a top uni means nothing these days.
I also dont like the Uni Vs It thing but when your speaking with people who make STUPID statements like this ....


"And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them."

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

damnyanks

I'm simply stating what I was told to screen for. Within Ireland the places we were told to accept were

Trinity,
UCD,
Smurfit,
DCU
(I know smurfit is within UCD)

While this is only 1 company the recruitment practice across the industry is pretty standard. I've met plenty of Irish grad's in London but when I think about it none of them are from IT's or colleges.

I'd view the DIT comp sci course stronger then the UCD one with regards to technical exposure and so on. We've been told not to accept them as they arent on the list.

This isnt a Uni vs IT / College thing, I'm simply stating something that will make your life that bit easier when looking for a job. I went to a college and a university - so its really not a case of snobbery.

Stark

damnyanks wrote:

I'm simply stating what I was told to screen for. Within Ireland the places we were told to accept were

Trinity,
UCD,
Smurfit,
DCU
(I know smurfit is within UCD)

UCC wasn't on the list?

damnyanks

Nope, it's not on the targetted list - means the person has to have some reasonble credentials behind them (activities, work exp. and a decent cover letter)

Someone from quanititive finance at smurfit for instance would just about get an interview automatically.

omahaid

jackbhoy wrote:

New grads (s/w engineers, operations/networks etc.) at my employer will be starting on min of 28k, in reality most will start on 31/32k, the best ones will be offered circa 33-35k i'd imagine. I've been there 18 months straight out of college, started on decent wage and have had two 8%+ raises and one promotion which also came with a seperate raise.

Feck, a 1H and all I got was 28k (should have held out for more ). Seriously though, the highest paying grad program I could find (of companies that released such info) was An Post at 30k, I thought I did well with 28k outside Dublin (starting as software engineer btw, did comp sci in UCC).

Timmy_d

dont really know much about the graduate programs but are they good in general and are there alot of companys in ireland running these programs,probably hard to get onto only picking best of the best but the money doesnt seem too bad for starting off....

MrSquishSquash

Didn't mean to start a "Uni versus IT" debate, just curious about peoples experiences when starting out after graduating from their IT related programme!

DJDC

<snip>Trolling remarks</snip>

100% of DJDC posts in this thread are useless, hence why he is now banned.

GoneShootin - a 3 time IoT graduate now earning 30K+ at the tender age of 25. Stick that in your pipe DJDC and smoke it.

Jumpy

Which side of IT are you referring to here OP?
Are you going the Dev path or the Support path?
Dev will get you a higher starting salary but in the long run unless it is programming in niche software support will end up a higher salary, particularly if you branch to UNIX with a bit of Cisco.
Support is a far harder job however as you not only have to deal with your own managers and PM's but the end user as well.
If you branch to support though, be prepared for at least 5 years of gutter leavings. You need to get really good to get the higher earnings.

Nermal

Jumpy wrote:

Support is a far harder job however as you not only have to deal with your own managers and PM's but the end user as well.

one has to live with oneself, after all. developers create.

i've seen people 'move up' in support. they get to watch progress bars instead of being on the end of the phone.

Jumpy

Nermal wrote:

one has to live with oneself, after all. developers create.

i've seen people 'move up' in support. they get to watch progress bars instead of being on the end of the phone.

Mmm Level 2.
Yep, theres still a Level 3 and Consulting that you havent obviously havent seen yet.

cold_filter

damnyanks wrote:

I
I'd view the DIT comp sci course stronger then the UCD one with regards to technical exposure and so on. We've been told not to accept them as they arent on the list.

Iwould agree with this. I did my degree in CS in UCD, i would conider myself a pretty good programmer.
I applied for an internship with ericsson a couple of years back and eventually found out that i didnt get it because UCD's CS course isnt practical enough.

I now work for ericsson....

omahaid

Timmy_d wrote:

dont really know much about the graduate programs but are they good in general and are there alot of companys in ireland running these programs,probably hard to get onto only picking best of the best but the money doesnt seem too bad for starting off....

A large amount of the large companies (not just IT, but banking etc) run grad programs for IT grads. I applied to a number of them, they seem to be looking for min 2:2/2:1 but I imagine (hope) that they plan to keep you and train you, which is a big plus in my mind.

BobTheBeat

Jumpy wrote:

Which side of IT are you referring to here OP?
Are you going the Dev path or the Support path?
Dev will get you a higher starting salary but in the long run unless it is programming in niche software support will end up a higher salary, particularly if you branch to UNIX with a bit of Cisco.
Support is a far harder job however as you not only have to deal with your own managers and PM's but the end user as well.
If you branch to support though, be prepared for at least 5 years of gutter leavings. You need to get really good to get the higher earnings.

I can vouch for that. I have a 2.1 in IT and Telecomunications a CCNA,and after Four years as a Technician, I am about to start a role as a network admin. It is actually insane the broad range of experience employers look for. I have had the chance to work with some seriously skilled people (who are all Russian actually) and learn a hell of alot. But only now would I be considered for a proper admin job. And Im not just talking changing tapes in the autoloader and rebooting pc's.

fguihen

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

I hate hearing rubbish like this. I got the chance to go to UCD, or an IT and I chose the IT,and im glad i did. In my IT, the lecturers were super helpful, went out of their way to help us in any way they could, even giving us extra lessons if we asked, for free. or dept head knew everything about the exams, rules, appeals, what to do if exams went badly etc. compare this with UCD where a friend went where lecturers would just teach you what they had to, wouldnt help much after that, and if you wanted any info on anything to do with exams and what not, the last people to ask was the lecturers as they didnt care. I came out of the IT and had a job in 2 months, which i still am it. It pays quite well and is giving me expirience to go even further. so enough of your hatemongering against IT's. DIT is renound for engineering..look at that.. its an IT, the IT i went to is renound for business and Computing results. Universities exist to exploit rich people out of their cash as they think they are better off than those who go to IT's. whats the difference IMO, well , universities were usually established many years ago, so they are old, their lectures think they are better as they work in a Uni, and are therefore arrogant, less help , less resources. contrasted with the helpful and exceptionally knowledgable folk in the IT's ( my one anyway) and there is no choice. its IT all the way.

now, with that out of my system, on to helping you get a job.
Take time to do your cv. a few weeks even. make sure you detail all your relivant expirience. dont dwell on leaving cert results. make it as clear as possible. give a little paragraph describing yourself and what you are accomplished in, before giving actual bullet points and descriptions of expirience. dont rely on only bullet points, flesh it out so they know plenty about you before you go to the interview. a good cv is 75% of the way to getting a job, after that , be prepared. know your cv inside out so you can answer any questions on it, and elabourate on details to build yourself up as much as possible, without lying! dont lie. you will be caught out in the end! The industry is an employee's market at present. I graduated in 2002, and within a few months i had a decent job with great pay for someone with zero expirience! i will soon have 2 years and the money will just get better. !

nesf

fguihen wrote:

Universities exist to exploit rich people out of their cash as they think they are better off than those who go to IT's. whats the difference IMO, well , universities were usually established many years ago, so they are old, their lectures think they are better as they work in a Uni, and are therefore arrogant, less help , less resources. contrasted with the helpful and exceptionally knowledgable folk in the IT's ( my one anyway) and there is no choice. its IT all the way.

Eh, no.

damnyanks

fguihen wrote:

I hate hearing rubbish like this. I got the chance to go to UCD, or an IT and I chose the IT,and im glad i did. In my IT, the lecturers were super helpful, went out of their way to help us in any way they could, even giving us extra lessons if we asked, for free. or dept head knew everything about the exams, rules, appeals, what to do if exams went badly etc. compare this with UCD where a friend went where lecturers would just teach you what they had to, wouldnt help much after that, and if you wanted any info on anything to do with exams and what not, the last people to ask was the lecturers as they didnt care. I came out of the IT and had a job in 2 months, which i still am it. It pays quite well and is giving me expirience to go even further. so enough of your hatemongering against IT's. DIT is renound for engineering..look at that.. its an IT, the IT i went to is renound for business and Computing results. Universities exist to exploit rich people out of their cash as they think they are better off than those who go to IT's. whats the difference IMO, well , universities were usually established many years ago, so they are old, their lectures think they are better as they work in a Uni, and are therefore arrogant, less help , less resources. contrasted with the helpful and exceptionally knowledgable folk in the IT's ( my one anyway) and there is no choice. its IT all the way.

now, with that out of my system, on to helping you get a job.
Take time to do your cv. a few weeks even. make sure you detail all your relivant expirience. dont dwell on leaving cert results. make it as clear as possible. give a little paragraph describing yourself and what you are accomplished in, before giving actual bullet points and descriptions of expirience. dont rely on only bullet points, flesh it out so they know plenty about you before you go to the interview. a good cv is 75% of the way to getting a job, after that , be prepared. know your cv inside out so you can answer any questions on it, and elabourate on details to build yourself up as much as possible, without lying! dont lie. you will be caught out in the end! The industry is an employee's market at present. I graduated in 2002, and within a few months i had a decent job with great pay for someone with zero expirience! i will soon have 2 years and the money will just get better. !

Sorry bud you're not giving good advice there. If someone is looking into a career before they start third level then they should ideally be aiming for a university or an place that is renowned for being excellent in that specific field. Your leaving cert results in most cases dont matter. Mine sucked and it never held me back.

Graduates coming from a university have advantages over IT / College students in the following respect

More companies will look to recruit directly from universities. More of them will goto campuses and give presentations to lure grads.

The average assumed ability of a university student is usually higher then the assumed ability of an IT / college student. Don't go mental over this point it's very general (i.e you need a higher leaving cert to get into a university in most cases)

Then there is the varied reputational factors to consider. Universities get their name out within industry through their research efforts. The place where I went has a great name within space robotics meaning if I wanted to get into that area I'd have a strong brand behind my name.

Ultimitley it is down to your own initiative and ability. Where I went to study or how I studied was never a concern to me. Then I started working and saw what it really meant in terms of recruitment and politics. This is typically limited to large companies as small companies only care if you're capable.

As far as teaching standards and so forth thats a totally different kettle of fish and something I'd consider irrelevant with regards to getting a job as its down to yourself to get the work done, we've all had **** and great teachers through out our education.

Beta2

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

I work for one of the biggest software houses in the country, in fact i think we're the biggest employer of software grads in the country. I often sit around the interview table and time and time again students coming from an IT come out on top, they are just better candidates, the uni students typically have text book answers but can't seem to solve a logical problem, or have little or no practical experience.

out of all the grads that apply to work for us about 75% are uni students, 25% IT students, but the actual mix employed is closer to 50 - 50. So infact within our company IT grads typically have a better chance of being hired.

I personally don't care where the degree was awarded from, its all down to the individual candidate. but to say that you should avoid IT's is completely wrong.

My advice would be to pick a course that you find interesting, then the learning will be more enjoyable and easier.

Don't accept a job you don't like, its very hard to work your way up from tech support, the amount of talent i've seen extinguished in these soul destroying jobs is unbelievable. If you can't get the job you want straight out of college go back and do a masters and then you'll find it easier to get a development job. a masters on the cv is superior to 2 years tech support.

Timmy_d

Beta2 wrote:

I work for one of the biggest software houses in the country, in fact i think we're the biggest employer of software grads in the country. I often sit around the interview table and time and time again students coming from an IT come out on top, they are just better candidates, the uni students typically have text book answers but can't seem to solve a logical problem, or have little or no practical experience.

out of all the grads that apply to work for us about 75% are uni students, 25% IT students, but the actual mix employed is closer to 50 - 50. So infact within our company IT grads typically have a better chance of being hired.

I personally don't care where the degree was awarded from, its all down to the individual candidate. but to say that you should avoid IT's is completely wrong.

My advice would be to pick a course that you find interesting, then the learning will be more enjoyable and easier.

Don't accept a job you don't like, its very hard to work your way up from tech support, the amount of talent i've seen extinguished in these soul destroying jobs is unbelievable. If you can't get the job you want straight out of college go back and do a masters and then you'll find it easier to get a development job. a masters on the cv is superior to 2 years tech support.

Finally someone is making sense and the kind of stuff you want to hear

strychnine

DJDC wrote:

99% of IoT graduates read The Sun, have low levels of grammatical and mathematical ability and have an IQ lower than Jade Goody. This can be explained by the low leaving cert points of the entrants who gain places on these courses. The differential in average points between top unis and IoT's is enormous, often in the region of 200 points. A mention of the word 'university' around such people tends to result in bitterness and anger, due to connotations of failure and rejection they associate with the word.

You obviously know nothing about the CAO system. If you did then you would know that points levels are driven by demand not difficulty. If a course is at 300 points it does not mean it is half as hard as a 600 point course, it means that the 600 point course had twice the number of applications made to it.

As for the guy who said that big companies look down on ITs, this is simply not the case in reality. Im in the Comp Sci course in DIT. At the moment we have 6 guys on work placement in Google. Last year we had a guy on the IBM extreme blue programme and another one of my colleagues is starting it around now. There are also two graduates from last year now working there permanently. We also have work placement students in Microsoft, eBay and AIB capital markets. Hardly small to medium size companies.

The idea that big companies look down on ITs is an absolute myth that is totally debunked by employment statistics.