Schols in UCD

aequinoctium

you know...why not?

they surely have the money...

funky penguin

Schols for everyone!

dajaffa

God this takes me back to the SU elections, one of the main features in Paul Lynam's manifesto who I was campaign manager for, but we lost...

singingstranger

Right. For the benefit of those of us who don't know what Schols are...?

Boston

singingstranger wrote:

Right. For the benefit of those of us who don't know what Schols are...?

Something trinity does.

Raphael

dajaffa wrote:

God this takes me back to the SU elections, one of the main features in Paul Lynam's manifesto who I was campaign manager for, but we lost...

One of the main reasons I voted for him and all >: (

lizzyvera

singingstranger wrote:

Right. For the benefit of those of us who don't know what Schols are...?

They're optional exams you can take and if you do really well in them you can get free campus accommodation. If you do quite well you get exempt from your summer exams.

aequinoctium

they also get free meals every day and some cash in hand.

imp

And a library just for scholars.

abelard

imp wrote:

And a library just for scholars.

Never knew about that bit.

I suppose the schols are a thing of tradition in Trinity. I don't know much about the history but I assume they started as payouts from rich patrons or something?

I guess a schols system could work here. I figure admin would just mess them up anyway though!

imp

imp wrote:

And a library just for scholars.

That's a new one.

Interestingly, Schols in Trinity is looking to change away from the extra exams people can take in the March break since we're talking about going the semesterisation and/or modularisation route, so there are discussions on the make up of the academic year. One plan would be to base them on the end of year exams instead of the additional ones.

Which, personally, I don't like.

They started around the time of Charles I - he issued a royal charter in 1637 with the details.

Some info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_College,_Dublin#Awards

Pride Fighter

It seems like a good idea. In trinity they are fiercely competitive and rarely awarded in some courses. UCD should not do it just to copy trinity, in my opinion. If the staff and students really want it it would take more than a thread on boards to convince them. Lets talk to Hugh Brady and convince him to introduce them. Although there is little chance of that.

aequinoctium

it's not about copying trinity but about opportunities and rewarding those who have the ability and will to work hard and outside the curriculum.

Boston

aequinoctium wrote:

it's not about copying trinity but about opportunities and rewarding those who have the ability and will to work hard and outside the curriculum.

Its not outside the cirriculum.

Fremen

I heard somewhere they're entitled to one free pint of guinness every day.

I reckon I would have worked a lot harder in college if I knew I could get a couple extra months off in the summer and/or free accomodation. Not to mention free beer...

Garret

guinness is not beer...

Fremen

Fremen wrote:

I heard somewhere they're entitled to one free pint of guinness every day.

A free pet dinosaur as well. May be past its expiration date.

The nearest thing to what you're suggesting is a rumour about how Scholars can request a glass of port/wine/brandy/whiskey (delete as per rumour) while sitting their exams. I call it a rumour as apparently a Scholar requested such a glass of port for one of their exams, but it was refused as he did not have his sword and/or cloak and/or he was not dressed 'as a gentleman' or something along those lines.

Garret wrote:

guinness is not beer...

You're right. It's better than beer

Boston

Myth wrote:

A free pet dinosaur as well. May be past its expiration date.

The nearest thing to what you're suggesting is a rumour about how Scholars can request a glass of port/wine/brandy/whiskey (delete as per rumour) while sitting their exams. I call it a rumour as apparently a Scholar requested such a glass of port for one of their exams, but it was refused as he did not have his sword and/or cloak and/or he was not dressed 'as a gentleman' or something along those lines.



You're right. It's better than beer

From what I've been told their entitled to a pint of stout with commons.

frisbeeface

Boston wrote:

From what I've been told their entitled to a pint of stout with commons.

They get a glass of Guinness with commons. About half a pint. Most people don't drink it so you can yoink plenty of spare glasses if you're so inclined.

Boston

frisbeeface wrote:

They get a glass of Guinness with commons. About half a pint. Most people don't drink it so you can yoink plenty of spare glasses if you're so inclined.

Thats the one

Ah, you learn something new every day.

Awayindahils

i sat schols this year. they cost an awful lot to run for the college for a very small group of people. they also cost a fair wack for the college after the event.

it's really really really good if you get them, though not so cool if you end up 69.33 as someone i know did.

the major problem with schols however is that people do stop going to lecturers all together. i am one of those people. i dont know what happened in stats after about the middle of febraury. if you reckon you're only getting exmeptions the temptation is to simply bolt. which i did.

also you guys are saying how much you would like to have the oppertunity to have them. its the leaving cert twice. its rainning and freezing and you stay as late as you can in the library each night and get in when it opens the next day. you miss lots of things. and i remember several conversations this year outside of the exam hall which went.."wish i'd gone to ucd just because there's no schols."

the pressure is emmence. and its a very lonely thing to do.

and i know that this is a bit of a rant.

Awayindahils

Awayindahils wrote:

it's really really really good if you get them, though not so cool if you end up 69.33 as someone i know did.

Did they check their papers to see if they were due additional marks? Academics can make mistakes while marking.

Tacitha

Was that an overall 69.33? What subject? Most examiners' courts would raise that, unless you had pretty uneven component marks, like one 100 and a few 59s, say.

Schol doesn't actually cost much to run: it's only about 300 candidates, once a year. We don't pay for the exam hall, and no-one gets paid extra for setting a single paper and marking a handful of scripts. It's not anonymously marked, which cuts down admin. There were some enormous figures in the review report, certainly, but they're not defensible. How could such a small exam possibly be consuming a tenth of the college exam budget per year? It doesn't - look at the figures and they fall apart. John O'Hagan (Bursar until last year, economist) thinks so too.

And while I've always presumed it cost a lot, I'm not convinced much money changes hand to pay for scholarships. Does the accommodation office get a lump sum from, say, the Trinity Foundation, or does it absorb the cost through rents and tourist revenue? Do scholars' fees get paid at all? It's quite difficult to get answers on that.

I suppose UCD could absorb the costs fairly easily in that way, especially if a cap was put on the numbers getting it.

(But there's no scholars' library. And the cash in hand is about 250 euros a year - not index-linked, sadly)

PeakOutput

they can walk on the grass

EVEN when there are signs saying DO NOT walk on the grass........what an honor

Boston

Tacitha wrote:

Was that an overall 69.33? What subject? Most examiners' courts would raise that, unless you had pretty uneven component marks, like one 100 and a few 59s, say.

In schols that doesn't happen. Besides a first is a requirement not a guarantee

Schol doesn't actually cost much to run: it's only about 300 candidates, once a year. We don't pay for the exam hall, and no-one gets paid extra for setting a single paper and marking a handful of scripts. It's not anonymously marked, which cuts down admin. There were some enormous figures in the review report, certainly, but they're not defensible. How could such a small exam possibly be consuming a tenth of the college exam budget per year? It doesn't - look at the figures and they fall apart. John O'Hagan (Bursar until last year, economist) thinks so too.

300 people dont do the exam in the one place at the one time. Invigilators cost money.

And while I've always presumed it cost a lot, I'm not convinced much money changes hand to pay for scholarships. Does the accommodation office get a lump sum from, say, the Trinity Foundation, or does it absorb the cost through rents and tourist revenue? Do scholars' fees get paid at all? It's quite difficult to get answers on that.

There is a notion of lost revenue from fees they would have gained and rooms that would have been leased, and schols is a five year program remember.

Tacitha

Boston wrote:

In schols that doesn't happen. Besides a first is a requirement not a guarantee

I would say that it does. And a first if it's both an average and majority would be pretty close to a guarantee - the good conduct clause means almost nothing. You hear of the odd 68 or 69, but a first and no scholarship?

300 people dont do the exam in the one place at the one time. Invigilators cost money.

Why shouldn't they? There are very few sittings for schol - only about twenty in all for written papers. Almost all three hundred are together in the one venue much of the time. Maybe forty different exams in progress side-by-side. Look at the timetables. Invigilators aren't that expensive - 45 euros per session each? Compare it with the summer exams - it's a very small drop in a very large ocean. The review quoted 500 000 to run the schol exams each year. That's nonsense.

There is a notion of lost revenue from fees they would have gained and rooms that would have been leased, and schols is a five year program remember.

Of course, money is spent on both the exam and awards. And, yes, there's lost revenue, but what I was driving at maybe wasn't clear: it's a separate issue, that the cost of scholarship doesn't, by and large, 'leave' college - they 'spend' on their own services, which is better for them than laying out cash. Whenever the scholarship is translated into cash , its value drops steeply - the 250 'salary' - about 250 again if you have 'grave cause' to miss a year's worth of dinners, half the price of the accommodation if you don't use it and you're still on books - and many postgrad scholars don't stay. And no cash alternative for those who leave of course.

It's a great deal in any case. I imagine that if UCD started something like it, they'd advertise it fairly heavily for prospective students - I never understand why TCD doesn't.

PeakOutput

Tacitha wrote:

I never understand why TCD doesn't.

id imagine its because it is meant as a reward for current students who put in an extra effort.......they want the workers from each course to apply and then they can choose the best of those already generally hard working bunch and give them a very good reward............i doubt they want bucketloads of people applying to trinity because they know there is a chance of free accomadation in town for 5 years

claire h

Tacitha wrote:

It's a great deal in any case. I imagine that if UCD started something like it, they'd advertise it fairly heavily for prospective students - I never understand why TCD doesn't.

I wonder how much of a draw it would really be, though - how much does the average CAO applicant think about something they might possibly benefit from in their third and fourth year of college? (Then again, it's not like TCD advertise their entrance exhibitions either... not that they're particularly valuable, but it'd be a more immediate reward for prospective students.)

Boston

Tacitha wrote:

I would say that it does. And a first if it's both an average and majority would be pretty close to a guarantee - the good conduct clause means almost nothing. You hear of the odd 68 or 69, but a first and no scholarship?

There is a quota system and a minimum requirement. One of the thigns drummed into us when back i nthe day was that you might just get a right and still not get schols, but you require a first.

Why shouldn't they? There are very few sittings for schol - only about twenty in all for written papers. Almost all three hundred are together in the one venue much of the time. Maybe forty different exams in progress side-by-side. Look at the timetables. Invigilators aren't that expensive - 45 euros per session each? Compare it with the summer exams - it's a very small drop in a very large ocean. The review quoted 500 000 to run the schol exams each year. That's nonsense.

But they don't, thats the point.

Boston

Boston wrote:

There is a quota system

Ignoring what goes on in the deep dark caves of the court of examiners, officially there isn't a quota for schols - there is a quota for foundation scholars (70 as everyone knows), but none for non-foundation.

Boston

Myth wrote:

Ignoring what goes on in the deep dark caves of the court of examiners, officially there isn't a quota for schols - there is a quota for foundation scholars (70 as everyone knows), but none for non-foundation.

Maybe I'm not seeing the distinction here, isn;t foundation schol the one you sit the exam for?

Tacitha

Ignoring what goes on in the deep dark caves of the court of examiners, officially there isn't a quota for schols - there is a quota for foundation scholars (70 as everyone knows), but none for non-foundation.

Exactly, and the number of non-foundation scholars (same entitlements) keeps going up. If there were a quota, people would really need to know what it was in order to apply it. They don't, and there isn't. There's an awful lot of scaremongering about schol, and it's not very helpful to students or to new staff (who would have to be issued with a Secret Schol Handbook for half the rumours about procedures to be applicable).

And on the size of the operation, no, everyone doesn't sit it once, and I never said they did. But the written exams run over thirteen mornings in one college-owned building which can accommodate all candidates. Compare that with annual exams - it's nowhere near the expensive logistical nightmare that they can be TCD or UCD, and it can't possibly be working out at 500 000 a year, even with the dubious measure of 'staff opportunity costs'.

Tacitha

Boston wrote:

Maybe I'm not seeing the distinction here, isn;t foundation schol the one you sit the exam for?

No, not only, and I can see that that might cause confusion. A certain number of foundation scholars have to be elected to fulfil the conditions of the charter / statutes. Historically, there were problems with having people in these roles who were either Presbyterian or Catholic, even when the college was accepting such students. So two classes were created, foundation and non-foundation.
Non-foundation had all the rights and entitlements of foundation, but didn't have a say in the government of the college - so no dangerous religious dissenters got foundation.

Now that everyone is up for either, the quota of foundation scholars is seventy (over the five years). So, depending who's left, there would be about 10 - 20 foundation scholarships, and an unlimited number of non-foundation scholarships available every year. They award the best people the foundation scholarships - I think that this is now done on a faculty system, but I'm not certain of that. Then everyone else meeting the requirements gets non-foundation, and they all get announced together and have the same entitlements. It's a moot point though, whether non-foundation scholars would be able to vote with foundation on governance issues - this comes up only very very rarely so isn't often tested.

I think there were eighty-something scholars this year, so most would be non-foundation.

Awayindahils

Tacitha wrote:

I think there were eighty-something scholars this year, so most would be non-foundation.

76, 9 foundation.

As for the 69.33 its a very complicated situation.

Tacitha

Thanks - sorry about your friend. That sounds very unlucky.

Awayindahils

They're being pretty amazing about it.

lizzyvera

We wouldn't have to copy Trinity because they have some weird traditions and annoying administrative problems.

It could simply be that the best couple of students per shool get free accommodation on campus in a schols-only building or something so they can all nerd away together.
It could be based on end of year and winter exams, which are worth studying for anyway.

Blush_01

The top student in the class already gets a grand. Unfortunately, that was never me.

Sometimes a grand DOES come for free.