Stopping in neutral?

emeraldstar

is this ok? My driving instructor taught me to go all the way down the gears, 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd, but in a test situation when braking would just leaving it in neutral after 3rd be considered wrong?

Lorax

Ya shouldnt be going from 3rd to stop because itll involve coasting most of the time, unless your about to crash or something. But in normal conditions go down to 2nd. Its hard to know what your asking

J_R

Hi,

Here we go again:

From the IAM manual, "Pass your advanced Driving Test"

Coming to a Stop
The technique you use when coming to a complete halt after driving along in one of the higher gears often causes problems for candidates during the Advanced Driving Test. What you should do is best illustrated by imagining you are travelling along a suburban road in fifth gear at 40mph and traffic lights ahead turn red.

You slow down your car on the brakes alone, but there comes a point when the engine starts to labour. This is the moment when you de-clutch progressively, in order to prevent the engine straining the transmission and ultimately stalling. Normally it is a rule of advanced driving that you should not 'coast' with the clutch disengaged or the gearbox in neutral, but in this case you have to break this rule briefly by de-clutching so that you come to a halt without stalling the engine

They also say

Changing gears whils braking should be avoided because you reduce control of your car if you take one hand off the steering wheel

Back to original Question. Do you mean putting the gear lever in neutral. ??

If so, no, can only put the gear lever in neutral after car is stopped and handbrake applied.
If you mean not bothering going into 2nd, but stopping with gear lever in 3rd. Then NO PROBLEM , despite the old wives tales that you must stop in 2nd

Wossack

car should only be in neutral when the handbrake is on

you can come to a full and correct stop in any gear as long as you clutch correctly. Stopping in second all the time is a good rule of thumb though

Stark

Wossack wrote:

you can come to a full and correct stop in any gear as long as you clutch correctly. Stopping in second all the time is a good rule of thumb though

I find 3rd gear to be a good compromise. If you're doing "clutch. 2nd. clutch. stop" a lot while only spending a second or two in 2nd gear, then that's not good at all, despite what the Church of stopping in 2nd gear might tell you.

emeraldstar wrote:

My driving instructor taught me to go all the way down the gears, 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd

Get a new instructor. One who's received training and knows what's expected of you to pass the test, rather than one who relies on the same old wives tales that we can all pick up.

emeraldstar wrote:

but in a test situation when braking would just leaving it in neutral after 3rd be considered wrong?

Yes that would be wrong. Leave it in your current gear/change down a gear if you've a long approach but don't put the car into neutral until it's stopped and you've secured the car with the handbrake.

hermit

Wossack wrote:

you can come to a full and correct stop in any gear as long as you clutch correctly. Stopping in second all the time is a good rule of thumb though

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

bonkey

hermit wrote:

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

Wow.

Over here (Switzerland), I was taught to not change down from any gear when coming to a stop. That includes from 6th in the mini my instructor has.

Its more fuel efficient, and with a modern engine, you have to screw up enough that stalling would occur pretty-much no matter what gear you're in.

But don't let that effect what you guys do for the test in Ireland. Seriously...

Raoul

If you are behind a car, both stopped at traffic lights do you have to put the car in neutral. Opposed to being behind the first car and just sitting there with it in first without the handbrake on but the clutch in and hovering over the brake.

TwoShedsJackson

hermit wrote:

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

So why is 3rd fine, but 4th will result in an 'x'? Surely as long as you bring the car to a smooth controlled stop without the engine labouring, there's no real problem?

Wossack

Raoul wrote:

If you are behind a car, both stopped at traffic lights do you have to put the car in neutral. Opposed to being behind the first car and just sitting there with it in first without the handbrake on but the clutch in and hovering over the brake.

if you feel you're going to be stopped for 20 secs or more, handbrake up and into neutral

Jimoslimos

bonkey wrote:

Wow.

Over here (Switzerland), I was taught to not change down from any gear when coming to a stop. That includes from 6th in the mini my instructor has.

True, unless you're driving a very very old car (with poor brakes) you should brake in whatever gear you are in at the time, depress the clutch just before the engine cuts out. If you can perform an emergency stop without stalling the car you should be fine.

Wossack

Jimoslimos wrote:

True, unless you're driving a very very old car (with poor brakes) you should brake in whatever gear you are in at the time, depress the clutch just before the engine cuts out. If you can perform an emergency stop without stalling the car you should be fine.

I guess the problem in the test is due to you having to clutch in earlier when stopping in higher gears - resulting in a slight bit of coasting (I guess?)

/edit
and you might get 'failure to make progress' as you'll be in the wrong gear to immediately proceed should the way become clear again (have to do a 4->2, or 5->2 gearchange before moving off again)

Jimoslimos

Wossack wrote:

and you might get 'failure to make progress' as you'll be in the wrong gear to immediately proceed should the way become clear again (have to do a 4->2, or 5->2 gearchange before moving off again)

Block gear changes are perfectly acceptable, even skipping gears going up 2->4 is fine.

J_R

hermit wrote:

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

So, the Institute of Advance Motorist is wrong when they say it is OK to stop in 5th gear ?? See my first post.

Also all the test examiners are wrong when they do not mark my pupils for not changing down. I have them stop in whatever gear they happen to be in. Let it be 3rd, 4th, 5th or even 6th gear. - No Marks -

Brakes on a modern car are quite capable of stopping a car without any help from the engine. About 2 generations ago was a different story when to avoid the brakes over heating was necessary to have the engine assist in slowing/stopping a car. Things have moved on.

Motto now is:- Brakes to slow Gears to go

bonkey

J_R wrote:

Motto now is:- Brakes to slow Gears to go

You'd swear they'd been designed for that

unkel

J_R is spot on and so are several others here. That changing down the gear stuff is old skool. Very old skool. I was tought how to drive (in another country) well over 20 years ago and even back then, one did not need to change down the gears when approaching a red light in the distance for example

LOL at bonkey

Wishbone Ash

The old wives tale about stopping in 2nd originated when most ordinary cars were 3 or 4 speed only and therefore had completely different ratios.

J_R wrote:

Motto now is:- Brakes to slow Gears to go

Yup, anyone who has ever driven an articulated truck will verify that. Try slowing down using the gears and it can jackknife! :eek:

jackofalltrades

even skipping gears going up 2->4 is fine.

It's fine if you're out to shorten the life of your engine/gearbox/clutch.
And you probably wouldn't be doing yourself any favours in a driving test.

So, the Institute of Advance Motorist is wrong when they say it is OK to stop in 5th gear ?? See my first post.

The IAM's saying that by doing the actions that they describe that you will be coasting, albeit only briefly, which could leave you open to getting marks against you in the driving test.

I usually go down through the gears when stopping and then clutch in, in 2nd or possibly 3rd, never really do it in any higher gear than that. Otherwise if the traffics starts moving you're stuck in a high gear and you have to go about selecting a gear, matching the engine speed and then clutch out without lurching or stalling the car. Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

Stark

jackofalltrades wrote:

The IAM's saying that by doing the actions that they describe that you will be coasting, albeit only briefly, which could leave you open to getting marks against you in the driving test.

You're far more likely to pick up a coasting fault if you try downshifting and you don't leave yourself enough time to lift your foot fully off the clutch before pressing it down again to stop.

jackofalltrades wrote:

I usually go down through the gears when stopping and then clutch in, in 2nd or possibly 3rd, never really do it in any higher gear than that. Otherwise if the traffics starts moving you're stuck in a high gear and you have to go about selecting a gear, matching the engine speed and then clutch out without lurching or stalling the car. Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

That's a matter of personal preference. Personally I find it's very obvious if there's going to be any chance of keeping going without stopping and in all other cases, stopping in gear is the easiest thing to do. In any case, if you find yourself able to keep going, you can change straight from 4th to 2nd without going through 3rd.

Wishbone Ash

jackofalltrades wrote:

you have to go about selecting a gear, matching the engine speed and then clutch out without lurching or stalling the car. Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

But in a car it's relatively easy to select which ever gear you require with the "gate" system. In a motorcycle, the rider may be required to stop suddenly in 6th and then have to click down (all gears in line) through 5 gears to get first again and not make it too obvious to the tester.

bonkey

jackofalltrades wrote:

It's fine if you're out to shorten the life of your engine/gearbox/clutch.

Is this still true?

With the gearing ratios and rpm on a modern car, I don't see the problem.
Mostly, when gearing up in a situation where I could go directly from 2nd to 4th, if I use 3rd I'll be in gear for only a second or so.

Is it really saving that much stress on the gear-train?

Our previous car was a 205 cabriolet....about 20 years old. Completely different beast, and gear-jumping was definitely a bad idea. Our mechanic even told us not to do it, cautioning that while it was perfectly ok in anything reasonably modern, the gear system in the 205 was just too old to handle it.

And you probably wouldn't be doing yourself any favours in a driving test.

Again a difference with Switzerland and Ireland. I was taught and encouraged to do it. Hmm...maybe the instructors are in league with the garages Damned money-making Swiss

Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

With respect, anything can be tricky for a learner. The whole point of the exam is to show that you can now manage the tricky aspects of driving to the point where you are not a danger to yourself nor anyone else.

If you do something wrong in the exam, you absolutely deserve to be marked down for it. But that doesn't mean at all that you should be marked down for doing it right, if its considered acceptable (or even prefereable) driving practice.

Wishbone Ash

bonkey wrote:

With the gearing ratios and rpm on a modern car, I don't see the problem.
Mostly, when gearing up in a situation where I could go directly from 2nd to 4th, if I use 3rd I'll be in gear for only a second or so

In many heavy commercial vehicles , the gears are skipped anyway by the automatic system. Some automatic buses will take off in 3rd and then go to 5th, then 7th and in sequence after that (8th,9th 10th 11th etc.).

In the articulated truck test, they expect you to select 3rd gear when moving off even though most truck handbooks insist that the driver selects 1st gear.

jackofalltrades

stark wrote:

if you find yourself able to keep going, you can change straight from 4th to 2nd without going through 3rd.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

But in a car it's relatively easy to select which ever gear you require with the "gate" system.

Its not the the actual selection of the gear that I see as tricky more so matching the engine speed to the gearbox speed. I guess this worries me more since I started off on motorbikes and being in the wrong gear or de-clutching in the wrong gear whilst gearing down could lead to serious balance/safety issues.

bonkey wrote:

Is it really saving that much stress on the gear-train?

They're always saying that newer cars are built a lot tougher and are able to take more abuse, but the last car I had was a 10 year old 106 and the clutch was only starting to go at around 85k miles(and that was after 3 people learning to drive in it, where as the previous owner of my current Focus managed to destroy the clutch in 18k miles.

Gear skipping, going up mightn't cause you too many problems in the short-term but it could lead to having to replace a clutch/gearbox a few thousand miles earlier than if it had been driven using all the gears.

In the articulated truck test, they expect you to select 3rd gear when moving off even though most truck handbooks insist that the driver selects 1st gear.

Did a lesson in a rigid once, the instructor told me to move away in 2nd, it still felt like a really low ratio 1st gear.

Stark

jackofalltrades wrote:

Its not the the actual selection of the gear that I see as tricky more so matching the engine speed to the gearbox speed.

A skill that has to be learnt regardless. If it was something to shy away from because it's "hard for poor inexperienced driver"(who's meant to be competent enough to pass his/her driving test) then we'd all be driving automatics.

jackofalltrades wrote:

I guess this worries me more since I started off on motorbikes and being in the wrong gear or de-clutching in the wrong gear whilst gearing down could lead to serious balance/safety issues.

My dad did his car test 20+ years ago after first learning to drive on motorcycles. One of the first things the instructor told him with regards to his moving through the gears sequentially in religious fashion was "You're not driving a motorcycle anymore".

If "it might lead to serious balance issues" is the best argument against stopping in gears other than 2nd, no wonder no advanced instructors and very few pre-test instructors advise stopping only in 2nd.

jackofalltrades wrote:

They're always saying that newer cars are built a lot tougher and are able to take more abuse, but the last car I had was a 10 year old 106 and the clutch was only starting to go at around 85k miles(and that was after 3 people learning to drive in it, where as the previous owner of my current Focus managed to destroy the clutch in 18k miles.

I find it unlikely that he destroyed his clutch through block gear changing/stopping in gear. It's more likely he did a lot of riding the clutch on hills and the like.

MrPudding

If the car comes to a complete stop the handbrake must be applied.

As for gears, move through the gears or change to the one you want directly. Each to their own.

MrP

Stark

MrPudding wrote:

If the car comes to a complete stop the handbrake must be applied.

Another "axiom" that some people get taught, but isn't true for all situations. You don't need to use the handbrake in all situations, only some situations such as stopping at traffic lights. For example, if you come to a halt at a stop sign, you don't need to use the handbrake, unless traffic on the major road is heavy and you're going to be there a while. Same thing if you're waiting to get onto a roundabout.

MrPudding

Stark wrote:

Another "axiom" that some people get taught, but isn't true for all situations. You don't need to use the handbrake in all situations, only some situations such as stopping at traffic lights. For example, if you come to a halt at a stop sign, you don't need to use the handbrake, unless traffic on the major road is heavy and you're going to be there a while. Same thing if you're waiting to get onto a roundabout.

As you say, it is what I was taught. I was told there were no exceptions. To this day I still apply the hand brake if I come to a stop.

With regards to slowing using gears. In IAM they like you to use the brakes as little as possible. It isn't a big deal if you do use them you they prefer you not to. After reading this thread yesterday I had a look at my roadcraft book as I couldn't remember exactly what it said on the subject.

As far as roadcraft is concerned breaking using the engine should only be done in adverse weather condidtions. Quite at odds with IAM which is suppose d to be all about the roadcraft.

MrP

wheresthebeef

This thread is the most confusing one i have ever read regarding driving and braking. Surely the gears are sequential for a reason. When taking off you work up from first to fifth etc.... and when slowing down you go down from fifth to second again. Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop? It feels more controlled and involves no coasting. And surely you'll slow down quicker if your using brakes and engine to assist you. I've rarely stopped in third, but know that i can if i need to. I would never attempt to stop in fourth or fifth. It just seems silly because you have to clutch so much earlier to avoid the engine shuddering.
I can't make sense of the conflicting opinions here so i am going to ask a question. Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

Jimoslimos

wheresthebeef wrote:

This thread is the most confusing one i have ever read regarding driving and braking.

Agreed:D

wheresthebeef wrote:

Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop?

Well more time with both hands on the steeing wheel for one.

wheresthebeef wrote:

And surely you'll slow down quicker if your using brakes and engine to assist you.

No, you'll slow down quicker if you just put your foot on the brake pedal.

wheresthebeef wrote:

It just seems silly because you have to clutch so much earlier to avoid the engine shuddering.

You shouldn't have to clutch that much earlier, unless you're braking much too soon. Its just a matter of practice.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

Given the conflicting evidence/opinions here I wouldn't dream of advising either way. Find yourself a reputable instructor with recent experience and ask them I suppose

Stark

wheresthebeef wrote:

Surely the gears are sequential for a reason.

They're not sequential. It's a car, not a motorbike. You can move from any gear to any other gear assuming the new gear has the correct ratio for the speed you're doing and the acceleration you want.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop? It feels more controlled and involves no coasting.

You don't have to coast when stopping in gear. Remember, if you're changing through the gears one by one, you have to put the clutch down with every gear change, so you're significantly increasing the time that the clutch pedal is to the floor when you're stopping.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

Fine for the state driving test. Not okay if you do an advanced driving test.

bonkey

wheresthebeef wrote:

Surely the gears are sequential for a reason.

Yes. Its to do with transferring power from the engine to the wheels. You don't need that power when you're braking.

and when slowing down you go down from fifth to second again.

Why?

If you cease slowing and need to accelerate again, then sure, you (may) need to change gears at that point.

Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop?

The correct question is why would you want to do so?

It feels more controlled and involves no coasting.

Changing through gears requires completely declutching multiple times whilst travelling at speed, as well as requiring you to drive one-handed. You have less control, in reality, no matter how it feels.

As for coasting...a modern engine will not stall if you gradually declutch as your speed decreases. How much coasting are you talking about?

I've rarely stopped in third, but know that i can if i need to. I would never attempt to stop in fourth or fifth. It just seems silly because you have to clutch so much earlier to avoid the engine shuddering.

I know people who can't parallel park easily and would rather drive around for extended periods of time looking for an alternative rather than having to try it.

If theysay parallel parking silly because they can't see the point in it, nor can they manage it easily, do they have a point?

Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

I'd ask a qualified driving instructor.

From what's been said here, it would seem that either is fine as long as you do it right, but I'd still ask a qualified driving instructor.

_feedback_

Hi All, sorry for dragging up an old thread!!

Just a quick one ... I've my test in a couple of weeks and over the weekend went for first refresh lesson.

My instructor insisted I must change down through the gears approaching roundabouts and stops.. I don't usually do it and found it generally off-putting!! I would usually approach a roundabout using the brake to slow, if i have to come to a complete stop, I'll clutch & brake. If not, I'll slow down and just entering the roundabout, I'll clutch and change to relevant gear. Similar at traffic lights, depending on whether they're green/amber/red and traffic conditions.

He told me I was coasting... I was to a very small degree, but I feel much more in control of the car that way. He also told me I was coasting when he asked me to turn in to a housing estate while i was travelling approx 50km/h in 4th and had to take a left and approach slowly. I kept the clutch down from when i was just about to turn left (after braking) until i completed the turn and proceeded straight after the turn by lifting clutch and changing to 2nd.

Am i going over board with the coasting?

Stark

elviscostello wrote:

My instructor insisted I must change down through the gears approaching roundabouts and stops.. I don't usually do it and found it generally off-putting!! I would usually approach a roundabout using the brake to slow, if i have to come to a complete stop, I'll clutch & brake. If not, I'll slow down and just entering the roundabout, I'll clutch and change to relevant gear. Similar at traffic lights, depending on whether they're green/amber/red and traffic conditions.

Stopping in gear and block gear changing don't count as coasting in themselves (unless you have the clutch in for a few seconds). It sounds like your instructor is one of the many Irish instructors who are decades behind the rest of the world.

elviscostello wrote:

He told me I was coasting... I was to a very small degree, but I feel much more in control of the car that way. He also told me I was coasting when he asked me to turn in to a housing estate while i was travelling approx 50km/h in 4th and had to take a left and approach slowly. I kept the clutch down from when i was just about to turn left (after braking) until i completed the turn and proceeded straight after the turn by lifting clutch and changing to 2nd.

This is coasting. Do this 4 times and you'll fail your test. Never disengage gears when going round a corner.

Wishbone Ash

elviscostello wrote:

I kept the clutch down from when i was just about to turn left (after braking) until i completed the turn and proceeded straight after the turn by lifting clutch and changing to 2nd

:eek: elvis - you'd want to get rid of that habit immediately. Never take a corner with the clutch pedal pressed!

wil

elviscostello wrote:

I kept the clutch down from when i was just about to turn left (after braking) until i completed the turn and proceeded straight after the turn by lifting clutch and changing to 2nd.
Am i going over board with the coasting?

I'll doublle that :eek: and raise you an OMG, I would have thought this should be an instant fail, but maybe they are more lenient over here.
To answer your last question by coincidence, a girl took out a signpost and her boyfs car almost outside my door as she attempted similar maneuvre from main road in to side road a few weeks back. While coasting she lost control. I was first on scene expecting the worst but apart from bruising and extremely upset seemed ok. Car and pole written off. Lucky for her she wasnt going that fast. And she was able to explain what had happened.

If you as a learner think you are coasting to a small degree, then you probably are to a much greater degree than you think.

Anyway I agree there is alot of confusing info on the subject and perhaps there is no simple definitive fully correct answer because of the distinction between different slowing situations eg emergency stop (straight line or bend), anticipated braking to a complete stop in traffic, braking at speed, braking in different driving conditions and normal anticipated slowing of the car to carry out a maneuvre, so there is no one set of instructions that apply to all situations.

I too was taught that brakes should be used sparingly, anticipation is much more important, and an emergency stop should almost never be necessary, usually only happens when your ability to anticipate and read the road is not as good as you think. Your engine is the primary control over your speed and when you disengage you are losing control momentarily. In slippy conditions you should use the brakes hardly at all.

Choose the correct gear before entering a roundabout/side road, not during. What gear that is depends on the traffic/road conditions and how you read them. Generally it would probably be third or second. If you are going to have to stop, your observation should already interpreted this and you would have dropped from the high gears before needing to come to a halt.

As for handbrake, I concur with MrP, thats one thing about learning in the UK, its pretty consistent, and they've been getting it a lot closer to right for a lot longer than the nonsense I see so much over here. (some reasons for it could be rollback or being rearended and pushed into oncoming traffic)

Aside - Does anyone in Ireland actually depress handbrake button before lifting or is that only taught in UK.

Stark

wil wrote:

Aside - Does anyone in Ireland actually depress handbrake button before lifting or is that only taught in UK.

We're taught to do that over here as well.

galah

Funny, I never use the handbrake (apart from hill starts and things like that)

- I was taught it's a "parking brake", and it's not necessary to use it when driving (again, excluding hill starts). (but please don't let that influence you for your driving tests here...)

It's really interesting what you learn in different countries around the globe when it comes to driving...

Stark

In countries where they drive a lot of automatics like America, they don't use the handbrake much.

I think with the dark evenings these days, it's polite to use it so you don't give the driver behind you a face full of red when you're sitting at traffic lights.

Vegeta

bonkey wrote:

Its more fuel efficient, and with a modern engine, you have to screw up enough that stalling would occur pretty-much no matter what gear you're in.
.

How exactly is it more fuel efficient? Honest question here as from my experience there is no difference

My brother has a 1990 e30 BMW with a mpg needle which is excellent for highlighting poor driving when it comes to fuel economy. Much better than the modern digital read outs

There is no difference between block gearing and chaning down gear by gear

Changing gears while braking should be avoided because you reduce control of your car if you take one hand off the steering wheel

Ok so you need 2 hands on the wheel to steer more effectively. What steering would you need to do in an emergency. Do the IAM promote swerving to avoid hazards??

yes you have more steering control but that is just one aspect (and as I said how much steering/swerving is sensible in an emergency) with changing down gear by gear you are in better overall control of the engine.

That logic is just plain dumb. By the same logic no one would indicate. How long does it take to take your hand from wheel to stick and back to wheel. I do it in under a second anyway. Roughly the same time it takes to put on lights, wipers and indicator.

Wertz

Coasting eh? That's been somewhat of a bad habit of mine too since I started learning....I think it's the fear of stalling that causes it. I've changed my habits after a pretty close call at a roundabout a while back...up til then I had this amazingly stupid habit of depressing the clutch too early whilst braking hard....this obviously is very hard on the brakes and is also dangerous since the gears and the engine's reducing revolutions aren't aiding in slowing (or controlling) the car...
Now if only I could manage to keep my hands on the wheel for longer than 10 seconds at a time...

prodigal_son

I think i will throw my 2 cents in..

I think the reason people are thought to just brake and then push the clutch in on the point of stalling, is simply to make the test easier. Its the safiest easiest way to do it. But i would like to suggest that going down gears is the absolute safest option, although a little harder to perfect, and it is something people should strive to do.

My reasons for saying this are as follows..

1.Using gears helps the car slow down.
2. Brakes fail, why not assist them with the help of the engine
3. You will always be ready to make progress.

If the only reason for braking to a stop in 3rd, is that you need your hands on the wheel, well i would call this point a moot one. You need 2 hands on a wheel to stop, but not to turn wide corners, to start off etc etc..

You can bring the car to a complete slowdown without even using the brakes.

I would suggest that the best way to slow down is to do the following.

Hit the brakes a bit, clutch in down one gear, clutch slowly and evenly out, you may be able to come off the brake a bit at this point as the car slows. Clutch in, down a gear and do the same, off the clutch nice and easy while using the brake to smooth the transition.

Finally you will get to 2nd gear, at this point the brake will sitll be pushed in a bit, but you will be going slow enough to come off the brake a lot, as you aproach a slow speed, maybe 2 or 3 km an hour, the car will gently stop, as you press the clutch in..

If the stop does not leave you enough room to come off the clutch slowly and evenly each time, do it more quickly in the higher gears, and apply the brake a bit more.

By the time you reach 2nd, you should always be in the same situation, going fairly slow, and in complete control.

I would suggest that driving to a stop, is a far far far safer approach than just jamming on the brakes.

Thats all my personal opinion though.

About skipping gears.. Its perfectly ok and should not do much harm to your clutch or gear box, unless you pop it into first from 6th, where you might blow your engine.

For example, if for some reason you high rev in first gear to something like 8000 revs, if you go to second, you will be high rev, maybe 5 thousand off the bat.. But you will more than likely be going fast enough for you to saftley put the car into 3rd, and it will then be medium reving in 3rd and you can go on your way as normal. That presuming when you reach 8000 rev in first your wheel speed is matching the gear speed, and you didnt just blip it high and plop it in 3rd.

Let the syncro mesh do its magic. If you are going fast enough to skip a gear, you can skip it, in both up and down directions.

Sometimes coming to a sharp corner, the best approach is to just brake and put the gear from 4th straight to 2nd

Lastly a little tip i found is that if you are buying a car second hand, let the owner bring you for a drive, and watch to see if they use the handbrake. If they dont they may be in the habit of holding it on the clutch, and it could be a warning sign that it may live a short life.

bonkey

I think the reason people are thought to just brake and then push the clutch in on the point of stalling, is simply to make the test easier. Its the safiest easiest way to do it. But i would like to suggest that going down gears is the absolute safest option, although a little harder to perfect, and it is something people should strive to do.

Why do you think your preferred way is safer?

I'm not being smart here...you've described your way, and then basically said "I think this is safer", but not really why. You give 3 reasons, but I'm not sure that they're a good comparison. You're not looking at the pros and cons of both sides...

My reasons for saying this are as follows..

1.Using gears helps the car slow down.

Using the handbrake also helps slow the car down, but no-one's suggesting we use that

Running into the car in front of you will also slow you down...but its also not a good way of doing things

Seriously though...no-one questions that lower gears will help in braking. The question is whether this is the best approach.

It used to be so with older cars, where the brakes were a lot sofer, brake-wear was higher, and where the brakes could rapidly decrease in capability once they wore beyond a certain point.

In modern cars (assuming you keep them serviced etc.) this is not really the case. Brakes today are far more powerful, far more durable, and far more reliable.

So we need to look at the cost of using the gears to slow the car versus the benefit.

The benefit is.....

2. Brakes fail, why not assist them with the help of the engine

But everything fails. We don't drive on the assumption that things will fail. If we did, we'd probably never get above walking speed.

There are costs associated with downshifting and with not downshifting, and the question is whch on balance is safer.

Yes, brakes fail. So do clutches, gearboxes, and everything else.

The driver is least in control when the car is out of gear. You will have your car out of gear whilst downshifting far more often than I will by not downshifting....and at much higher speeds.

The experts say that on balance you are more at risk than me....especially in a modern car where the risk of brake-failure is very low. You're free to disagree with them...but like I said, teh comparison you should make here is more :

risk of brakes failing
vs
risk of clutch/gears failing + increased risk from not being in gear, particularly at higher speeds.

In a modern, maintained car...I'll discount the failure options, and end up with:

no-risk
vs
risk from not being in gear, particularly at higher speeds.

I don't see how I'm losing out here.

3. You will always be ready to make progress.

Eccept when the car isn't actually in gear, and also (to a degree) when you're clutchingor declutching....which by your description is actually quite a lot of the time that you're coming to a halt.

Even if that weren't the case...how does being ready to make progress make you safer?

Wishbone Ash

prodigal_son wrote: »

But i would like to suggest that going down gears is the absolute safest option, although a little harder to perfect, and it is something people should strive to do

It's odd therefore that, when driving a truck, the motto is "gears to go, brakes to slow". It's one of the first things that is taught.